Take a look at the first picture here...

http://www.caraudiomag.com/competition_corner/0404cae_corner/index.html

If you look close, the A pillar is a box frame. He cut out a hole behind the wooden donut to fit the speaker. That cant be good =/

Think this would cause an issue???

I dunno, but they better keep the center channel fairly weak, or risk cracked windshields!

:) :)

http://caraudiomag.com/competition_corner/0404cae_corner08_z.jpg

Any structural modification of a vehicle can cause problems especially if one were to say, roll the vehicle over or hit something at the exact height the pillar was modified so sure, it's a gamble.

What you have to ask yourself is whether or not you believe the modification risk is high or low and react accordingly.

Personally, I believe that the pillar mod in the pics presents a fairly low risk.

Don't know if this helps - but it's my $.02 :)

Dag Gone... I think they might've voided the Electrical warranty!! ;)

Bad idea. Really, really bad idea.

The objective of box frame is to minimize weight while still controlling the tendency to twist under load. He has cut nearly completely across one side of the box, which means that the now-disconnected sides have a point where they can cave in. With as much as the huge door openings depend on the A-pillars for structure, the body now has a whole bunch less resistance to tortional loading (f'rinstance, while taking a bump diagonally).

If he actually drives it much (as opposed to being a "show" car), I want to be the one who gets his future windshield replacement business, 'cause he'll now be going through front glass by the gross. And it's not because of that center speaker, either.

:?

[quote:d6ed03553b=" "]Bad idea. Really, really bad idea.

The objective of box frame is to minimize weight while still controlling the tendency to twist under load. He has cut nearly completely across one side of the box, which means that the now-disconnected sides have a point where they can cave in. With as much as the huge door openings depend on the A-pillars for structure, the body now has a whole bunch less resistance to tortional loading (f'rinstance, while taking a bump diagonally).

If he actually drives it much (as opposed to being a "show" car), I want to be the one who gets his future windshield replacement business, 'cause he'll now be going through front glass by the gross. And it's not because of that center speaker, either.

:?[/quote:d6ed03553b]

100% agree

Looking at all the pics, I think they were just modding the plastic trim piece, not the pillar itself.

Like the article kind of hints at, this is an Alpine show vehicle.
It actually has it's own large size Alpine brochure I recently looked thu at a local car audio/video shop while getting a nav system and flip down monitor installed.
As far as I know the vehicle is just for show to display Alpine products.
It's mentioned on the Alpine website but I couldn't find any online pics of it.

[quote:e323eaeb9c=" "]Looking at all the pics, I think they were just modding the plastic trin piece, not the pillar itself.[/quote:e323eaeb9c]

I do see a cavity in the pillar itself where the magnet of the speaker fits. That hole is not regularly there, so I am only assuming this is what the controversy is about. I honestly don't see how this is putting more (or less?) strain on the windsheild to the point of breaking like some previous posters mentioned. I can see how, when rolled, the pillar would collapse more easily but that is obviously a (comparitively) low-risk situation. I have to agree with eMass when it comes to mods like this because, in the end, I wouldn't consider this dangerous. No more dangerous than flying down a paved road at 75 mph in a 3500 pound car with 150 million other vehicles. If you are worried about making a car more dangerous by modifying a small peice of metal (6 x 6 hole at the largest), you might want to just walk everywhere because driving is pretty deadly period.

I think it looks good and will probably be very cool when its completed. I do have to say that brackets for mounting those amps are a bit over-the-top, but this is a show car so what do you expect.

I honestly don't see how this is putting more (or less?) strain on the windsheild to the point of breaking like some previous posters mentioned.

I think they're referring to the center speaker mid dash firing directly under the windshield, as seen in the pic.

He's gone from a box shaped structure to a U-shaped structure (think pickup chassis, everyones boxing them in now..) in that area, I would assume the windsield comment comes from the fact that the area will be less resistant to torsional twinsting placing more stress on the glass?

Mike.

As far as the speaker doing any damage to the windshield, I'm going to have to say that pretty improbable from the vibration of that 6 1/2. I suppose it could happen if the speaker was was being HIGHLY overpowered and a huge cinderblock smashed into the windshield.

The twisting/torquing problem of the frame from that missing metal piece is a bit more plausible though. I still think its a pretty minor thing to worry about, but I think its more likely to happen than that speaker on the dash effecting that windshield.

I'm pretty sure that the comments about the speaker on the dash vs. the windshield was said in jest, sier.

What was said about the compromised structure of the A-pillar is, sadly, not in jest. My structural dynamics professor would cringe at what was done there - lots o' flex now where there wasn't any before.

:?

haha yeah, I figured that the speaker worries weren't very serious. You would have to mount a serious bass driver in the dash to do any serious damage to the windshield (and the dash, gauges, and anything else that can vibrate).

After considering the flexing motion of that pillar, cutting out that side might indeed put stress on that windshield. I would never think of actually cutting the metal of my Element unless I had a spare one in my garage. Seeing as my job isn't going to give me that 200% raise i'd need to pay for both, i think I'll just stick with my one, non-modified (metal-wise anyway) E.

Well, I've already stated my position on the pillar but looking at it again I think I'd actually be more concerned about what happens when you turn on the grill burner in the center of the dash!

Is that thing propane fired? Can you actually cook stuff on it?

Oh- it's a speaker? :wink:

haha. The best part is that someone will probably think that would be a cool mod. Well, other than the melting dash issue.

I remember seeing these pics and did a search today because I want to install 3-ways in the front and thought if someone else did it with the mids and tweets in the a-pillar then I could too. But unless the true a-pillar support can be reinforced properly to overcome what the cutting did then there is no way I would do that to my daily driver. But would a hole really do all that much, I mean steel supports and wood supports in homes always have holes cut into them to pass the wires through without hurting structural integrity of the post. As long as the hole leaves enough surface area around it, wouldn't it be negligible to total structural integrity. I would think reinforcing around the opening with steel brackets in a triangle would help.

Furthermore, I'm suprised nobody mentioned it, but on the passenger side, how exactly is the cover for the front passenger air-bag supposed to come off with the mid speaker sticking out so far? That would worry me even more than then cutting the hole. If the passenger surivived, I'm sure there would be a major lawsuit filed. But am I wrong, what way does the cover open, does it pop straight up or is it hinged at the rear and only needs an inch or two at the front to fully inflate the bag?

The speaker shouldn't get in the way. Look at the pic again and remember there's a vent directly under and between the speaker and the airbag flap.
The flap doesn't extend all the way to the A-pillar. It should be "hinged" toward the windshield and flips open toward the passenger from my understanding.

http://caraudiomag.com/competition_corner/0404cae_corner09_z.jpg

I'll have to take a look at it again, but I believe the air bag flap, just has a cut out (oval) for the vent, and the flap (one-piece) goes all the way to the A-pillar. That was my concern. I realize, the airbag itself does not extend all the way to the A-pillar, but that "flap" would need to open to let it escape. I'm just not sure how much it needs to open.

Here's a pic Boneheadz posted for another member showing their aftermarket dash cover. You can see where they provided a seperation to allow for the passenger side airbag to deploy. If it's aligned with the flap below it then it should clear the vent just fine. Plus if you look really close on your own dash you might be able to just barely make out the outline of the airbag flap in the right light. Atleast I know I can on mine.


http://www3.telus.net/boneheadz/images%20for%20post/Picture_0959.JPG


http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3134&page=1&pp=10&highlight=dashmat

Thanks for the picture, when I got in my car tonight (very dark out) I could not find any lines, accept for the ones next to the center console and along the A-pillar.

Trust me, I want to find them, because I've got CDT ES 3-ways, that I really want to put the mids and tweeters on the A-pillars. And if I'm sure it won't interfere with the airbag, then I'll be a very happy guy.

Hopefully with the sun out, I'll be able to see. I'll also take a look at internet parts sites and see if those diagrams show it as well.

I love it when people can prove me wrong. That's not being sarcastic, that's saying thank you, if you turn out to be right.

Empire,

You rock man, sure enough, when I looked this morning in the sunlight, I couldn't see any lines, but I did see the seams for the popout.

I know, I'm stubborn.

Thanks for clearing things up for me.

You asked what would be wrong if you were to cut a hole into the metal in the A-pillar like the Alpine Show Car?

First of you it is engineered to withstand a front as well as a side collision. In a front collision the pillar is designed to not collapse in on the passengers. If you were to cut a hole into the pillar as shown in the Alpine Show Car, then that would be the weakest point in the pillar would allow for it to actually bend where the steel is removed. It could also lead an insurance company to not pay for the repairs if you were in an accident.

In a side impact the steel being cut out could cause the side of the car to push in at the footwell. This could cause some serious foot damage.

I would not be removing any steel from the A-pillars at all. It is there for a reason... not worth screwing with it just to install some speakers.

There is no reason in a properly designed system that you should have to locate a 3 way setup above the dash. That just means the system imaging wasn't designed properly. Maybe locate the mids and tweets higher up on the doors... but no need for anything except maybe a set of tweets on the A-pillars.

Thats my dilemma... Imaging and staging... There just does not appear to be a decent position without time delay. The best place seems to be in the front corner of the dash, but its impractical.

Raising the speakers higher in the doors would cause even more of a left side bias.

I still plan on putting 4s and tweets as far forward into the corners of the dash as possible. I will wind up placing a mid bass speaker in the lower doors (may go mono with these, not sure yet). The 4s are at the highest location while still at their maximum distance to try to come to a closer equal path length. The midbass drivers lower in the door will be crossed over quite low... Yes, they will be in the directional frequency response range, altering the staging, but I have to make some sacrifices.

My next search is for a decent plate speaker. I am planning on 5.1 in the E.

I agree that the best placements for the mids would be up on the dash, but as you said, highly impracticable. The a-pillars are a great alternative and that's where I wanted to put mine, but unless I keep the E garaged I have a feeling speakers that viewable to people on the outside is too much of an invitation.

I've decided to try putting the 4's above the stock speaker location on the door. Yes, it's not optimal, but time delay and other equalizations will still give a decent sound. I don't plan on competiting with my system, nor making it sound the best for movies, so I think if I can get them set correctly, the sound will still be great.

Hey,

If you put speakers like this customized E in the A pillars, don't you need a certain amount of air to properly load the midbass driver?

I can't see how just mounting them to the A pillar will do them justice. Probably gonna have to deaden everything with dynamat or similar.

Thx,
Phil

This could be a stupid question, but I'll throw it out there...be gentle. :roll:

Has anyone ever thought of using a planar type speaker in a car.
I have a set of Monsoon Planar Media 9's.
They are awesome. :-o
The clarity you can get with a planar speaker is amazing.
Alone, I would think they are a little weak in the midrange but in a car they would be supplemented by mid's in the door.

Is there a reason that you do not see them?
It appears to be fairly durable technology.
I know that the "sweet spot" tend to be a little less forgiving with planars, but is it really that bad when you take into consideration the mounting possibilities?

http://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20021017/gtmonsoon/PM9monsoon.jpg

Oh, and as for the A pillar, I'm with Mike.
Just like back in science class.
A Coke can is able to support well over one hundred pounds if the sides are not dented. Stand on it and have someone poke the side with a stick. It dimishes the structural area with which to distribute the weight and the can comes crashing down, just as if there was a hole in the side.
The same will happen if your in an accident that places stress on the A pillar, except you'll be sitting in the can. IMHO :roll:

Ribbon speakers have been used in car audio in the past. They work really well, but require a decent amount of current to power.

If I had a set I would install them =)