Moderator's note: Also see this thread (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32069)

Does anyone know how Honda's 4WD in the Element works? Are we driving on all 4 all the time? Are we using front wheel drive until the front slips? I would like to read a technical document on it but I can't seem to find anything.

Thanks
Scott

As what I understand, We are using FWD until the car feels its slipping then it engages the rear wheels automatically. Then as soon as the slipping is over with it goes back to FWD.
In a post somewhere here someone said that it worked just fine for them in the snow on the freeway.

I have no complaints, I drove in a snow storm last week and the E was flawless. I would just like to know more details. I was hoping the E spends most of it's life as a 2WD.

Found this:

Real Time 4WD(TM)
Available on all trim levels, Element's Real Time 4WD system delivers added traction in snow, rain, mud and sand - especially on steep slopes and rutted dirt roads. Real Time 4WD sends power to the rear wheels when the primary front-wheel-drive system experiences slippage. The system consists of a power take off (PTO) from the transmission that distributes torque to a propeller shaft that runs to the rear differential. The rear differential contains two internal hydraulic pumps -one driven by the propeller shaft and one driven by the rear wheels - that circulate fluid through an internal multi-plate clutch system. When wheel slippage occurs, the flow rate is greater from the propeller shaft pump and forces the clutches to progressively engage, sending up to 70 percent of the torque to the rear wheels in slick conditions and 30 percent in dry conditions. The system operates automatically and only when needed, requiring no intervention on behalf of the driver to activate. It offers significant fuel efficiency and packaging advantages over conventional four-wheel-drive systems that use bulky, heavy running gear and rarely see heavy-duty off-road use.

Have fun
Jim R

oh wow all this time..When it said real time awd. I thought 4wd constant.

After having my 4WD E for only 2 days, so far I'm reasonably pleased with it's performance in the snowbelt of NE Ohio. I traded in a 1997 2WD Rav-4, which wasn't so groovy in the snow...but the E has plodded through the elements and about 5" of snow and ice today without missing a beat, sliding all over, or any other complaints.

Much the same as Jim R's responce here is the full story from the Canada CR-V website which is suppose to be the same as the Element.


Real Time™ 4WD

The Real Time™ 4WD system on the CR-V is designed to overcome the traditional drawbacks of a full-time four-wheel-drive system such as lower fuel economy, higher noise and vibration levels, higher weight and difficulty in adapting the system to ABS. The CR-V’s Real Time™ 4WD operates automatically and only when needed. It requires absolutely no intervention on behalf of the driver for it to be engaged or disengaged.

The CR-V’s Real Time™ 4WD system sends power only to the rear wheels when there is insufficient traction for the front-wheel-drive system. The system consists of the conventional front-wheel-drive system, a compact transfer case that distributes drive to a propeller shaft running the length of the vehicle, a dual-pump system, the rear differential, and left and right rear-wheel driveshafts.

The heart of the system is the dual-pump unit. It consists of two hydraulic pumps, one driven by the front wheels via the propeller shaft and one driven by the rear wheels via the rear differential. A hydraulically actuated, multi-plate clutch, similar to the clutches used in Honda automatic transmissions, connects the propeller shaft to the rear differential.

When the CR-V is operating with the front and rear wheels turning at the same speed, for example on dry pavement, the front and rear hydraulic pumps operate at the same speed. Hydraulic fluid circulates between the two pumps; however, no pressure is generated. In effect, the fluid fed by the front pump is absorbed by the rear pump.

If the front wheels begin to turn faster than the rear wheels, as would be the case if they were spinning on snow or ice, the two hydraulic pumps would turn at a different rate and hydraulic pressure proportional to the difference in their speeds of rotation would be generated. The resulting hydraulic pressure opens a valve body and feeds pressure to the multi-plate clutch, which engages the front propeller shaft to the rear differential. The rear differential feeds the drive torque to the right and left rear wheels.

System operation is completely automatic; no electronics or driver action is involved. The greater the degree of front-wheel slippage, the greater the amount of torque fed to the rear wheels. Real Time™ 4WD is also practically maintenance- free, requiring only a scheduled fluid change at 96,000 km or 48 months under severe conditions. Another big advantage of the CR-V’s dual-pump Real Time™ 4WD system is that, unlike conventional 4WD systems, Real Time™ 4WD automatically disengages under braking, thereby allowing the ABS system to engage.

Thanks to all!

Thanks for the detailed info Jim. I was backing out of a downhill snowed-in driveway the other day...I heard a slight slip from the front tires a few times (possibly the moment before all 4 engage) but made it out thinking of what was going on under my seat. Now I know. Thanks.

Living on top of a steep hill in this OH winter (the worst yet!) is what forced me to buy a vehicle with 4WD. I was a little nervous at first (other cars had left me stuck right on the hill!) but the Element has proven itself twice in the 2 weeks I've had it. Have no fear!

Can someone help me with the real value of Real Time 4WD ? My main mission with 4wd is to get me up VERY steep snow laden (paved) hills. It just seems to me that with this system, the front drive wheels have to totally loose traction to add power to the rears. At a low speed, like going up steep snowy hills, this means you would probably be at a standstill ( most owners say it takes almost a second for the power transfer). This would be enough perhaps to get you going (although now your trying to start from a standstill now) and as soon as you start to move (front tires not slipping now) the power is taken off the rear axle. It seems like this could result in a slip-push slip-push situation going up the hill. These hills are so steep that once you do come to a standstill, your probably dead even with 4WD. Yes I do invest in good snow tires (hakkapilliita's) but maybe FWD is going to basically as good without the cost or loss of milage.
Anyone with expierience in snow or ideas about this??????

I am not sure what you mean by slip push slip push situation. Are you assuming once the front tires start moving, they will start to slip again? I guess that could happen if you are going up a slope with patches of ice. You incorrect in assuming that the front tires have to completely lose traction before the rear tires engage. The viscous coupling transfer power to the rear when there is a difference in rotation speed between the shafts. I do not know what the threshold is but the system does work.

Winter tires have repeatedly been recommended by Consumer Reports and other publications for winter driving. Whether FWD with winter tires or Realtime 4WD with all season is better, I can not answer. I got the 4WD drive version because I have been stuck with FWD and winter tires. Since the MPG penalty was relatively minor as compared to the 2WD version the 4WD was a peace of mind investment for me. I don't want to be caught in another Nor-Easter pushing the friggin car again.

For the record I am not saying, one will never get stuck with 4WD but it does give one 2 additional tires to work with in low traction situations. Additionally if you get a manual, you can start in 2nd gear since the Element is geared so low. Yes I know you can do it with auto trannies too but there is no feel with auto trannies

I have a long (360 ft) steep driveway (the neighbors call it the bobsled run) and was able to go right up it this spring while it was covered with snow and ice while my wifes Jetta had to be parked at the bottom. She is really jealous. This was on new stock tires. I doubt anyone has a driveway that is much steeper than mine.

I was surprised that it made it up, actually. It perfromed much better than expected. The E just squirmed a little and went right up without any slipping at all.


Best,

It is hard to say how the RT4WD is splitting power, however, when I did test the Element on snowy hills last winter I found it to be directionally stable. Of course when braking this stability had more to do with the suspension (rear wheel toein increases during braking), than with the RT4WD system. However as related previously, I purposefully stopped on a icy hill and tried to get going again. While I did have to play the gas gently to get traction without wheel slip, the Element did get going. My RAV4 with a supposedly superior full time AWD had more wheel spin, and drifted to the side of the road. I ended up backing the RAV4 down the hill.

Again I can't really say what part the RT4WD played in this hill climb v. suspension and transmission gearing. Tire footprint could also have come into play, since the Element is heavier, but with faster wearing tires.

On steep hills the 4wd may have a weight distribution advantage. On a hill a front wheel car loses traction because weight shifts toward the rear. The Element's ability to shift some torque to the rear makes up for this.

paulj

from the honda.ca site:

Available on the Element Y-package, the Real Time 4WD system delivers added traction in snow, rain, mud and sand – especially on steep slopes and rutted dirt roads. Real Time 4WD sends power to the rear wheels when the primary front-wheel-drive system experiences slippage. The system consists of a power take off (PTO) from the transmission that distributes torque to a propeller shaft that runs to the rear differential. The rear differential contains two internal hydraulic pumps – one driven by the propeller shaft and one driven by the rear wheels – that circulate fluid through an internal multi-plate clutch system. When wheel slippage occurs, the flow rate is greater from the propeller shaft pump and forces the clutches to progressively engage, sending up to 70 percent of the torque to the rear wheels in slick conditions and 30 percent in dry conditions. The system operates automatically and only when needed, requiring no intervention on behalf of the driver to activate. It offers significant fuel efficiency and packaging advantages over conventional four-wheel-drive systems that use bulky, heavy running gear and rarely see heavy-duty off-road use.

Thanks for all the helpful input. Yea, paulj your right. On a steep hill, weight shifts to the rear. I discovered that a few years back just by chance, and found I could back up a steep snow covered hill in my fwd that I would have no hope of getting up going forward. People thought I was nuts.
Cheers

i was just reading a history of the scenic roads in Rocky Mtn Nat Park. The older road is steep enough that people used to back up some sections because their reverse was geared lower than first - this was back in the 20s when engines were a lot weaker.

paulj

I had to do the same thing in the Rockies in a VW Bus. Too steep to
make it in 1st. It wasn't in the 20's though!!!

A couple of years back we were in our CRV (same type of AWD system as the Element) going up a very steep and icy hill. We came across a front wheel drive car about 2/3 of the way up that had spun out and was trying to turn around (and doing a very poor job at that also). My wife drove up that hill like it was dry pavement. It made buying the AWD Element a no brainer for us.

This an attempt to collect in one obvious place various references and links regarding the AWD system on the Element.

The most detailed description is available on the Quebeccrv.com website

http://www.quebeccrv.com/other/rtawd.pdf - '4wd DPS Construction and Function' (DPS - dual pump system)
mirror (http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/files/rtawd.pdf)

animation at honda.com (http://automobiles.honda.com/element/features.aspx?Feature=4wd)


Threads include:
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7291
'performance: My E failed the mud test miserably... WHY?'

and

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9337
'performance: 4 wheel drive'

Good CR-V article with RT4WD details:
http://www.hondasuv.com/crv/viewtopic.php?t=713
Regarding timing:
"All this happens very quickly. As I wrote above, the connection and power distribution process can be completed in the time it takes for a wheel to make one quarter rotation. The system also disengages just as fast. As soon as the clutch packs make their connection, the propeller shaft and rear differential start working in unison. That restores equality between the two pumps, which means no more pressure, which means nothing to keep the clutch packs engaged and they disconnect. "


paulj

My dad was driving the E last night. It was snowing and slippery. When passing someone, it seemed the AWD would kick in and out, in and out, kind of a fish tail effect. He didn't like this. He said this isn't how it should be working. Does this sound like the system is working properly? Cuz, when the front tires slip, isn't that when the rears are engaged. And if one slips do both rear tires engage or just one? Can anyone explain how the AWD system works?
Thanks
L.

See the references at:

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10295

The rear has an open differential, which can let one or the other rear wheel spin if it is on a slippery patch. And yes, the torque the rear wheels will vary, depending on the slip in the front wheels. It isn't a super sophisticated system, so in certain conditions it could produce fishtailing. If things were that slippery, why pass? At what speed was this happening?

Many of us have found the Element to be quite well behaved when driving in snow. In fact it can be quite hard to make it spin or slide out of control, though that has as more to do with the front wheel drive and balance of the suspension than the awd system. One time when I intentionally climbed an icy hill, the Element did skew some as the wheels lost and gained traction, while I tried to apply just enough power to get going with a minimum of spin. My other car, with a full time AWD, actually didn't do so well. When its attempt to find traction produce a slide toward the side of the road, I quit and backed down.

paulj

I have experience and observations from last winter to make, but seriously need to wait until tomorrow to collect my thoughts. There's a first! ;-)

But I can safely say the system works exactly the way it was designed, and intended to. The question (more to the point) would be, does the "nut" behind the wheel "know" it's role? :twisted:

My dad was driving the E last night. It was snowing and slippery. When passing someone...
Though not "purely" a palindrome nor even an anagram, the word "idiot" can easily be formed from the letters in that brief quotation. :evil:

As stated already, it sounds like the "AWD" is working how it's suppose to. When your dad tried to push it too hard, the front wheels slipped and the rears kicked on. Then he eased off the gas, the fronts gripped, and the rears kicked off. He tried to push it again and the same result happened. It would be safer (and smarter) to take it easy, since this system is meant more for safety. He was trying to use it more like an off-road AWD system.

I'm with you guys. He shouldn't have passed and I told him that the AWD system was working correctly. I thought it "behaved" very well in the given situation. I really didn't like him passing in those conditions also because the E will soon be mine and I didn't want it to get injured ;).
Thanks for the help. Now to convince my dad.
L.

Looks like he has a case of SUV AWD syndrone. People believe because they have an SUV with AWD that they don't have to change their driving in the snow. It's funny, by me, you go on the expressway in the snow and 70% of the vehicles in the ditches are SUV driving soccer moms.

Every dealer I have worked at in the winter people come in saying,
my AWD or my 4WD doesn't work.
When doesn't it work?
Well, when I go through a corner at about 25 MPH it slides.
Why are you going through a corner in the snow that fast?
Well, because I have 4WD.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
Well it should I payed good money for it.

Every dealer I have worked at in the winter people come in saying,
my AWD or my 4WD doesn't work.
When doesn't it work?
Well, when I go through a corner at about 25 MPH it slides.
Why are you going through a corner in the snow that fast?
Well, because I have 4WD.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way.
Well it should I payed good money for it.

If we look at all the ad campaigs to make people want to buy AWD/4WD equipped cars, no wonder that manufacturers set wrong expectations in consumers minds. If they only mention that AWD helps in straight line acceleration and add more truction in certain situations...

But then again, they need to sell cars to consumers

Doing alot of commuting in the snow, I have found the biggest threat
out there is not the snow or ice, but 4WD SUV's with all season
radials. Yes LARS, you see a heck of a lot of them on side of the
road stuck......better than them sliding into YOU.

Q: What is the first sure sign on winter in the B.C. Interior?

-there is a nip in the air
-the dog doesn't want to go out early in the morning
-4X4s upside down in the ditch after the first snowfall?

A: All of the above

It never ceases to amaze me that people think that four wheel drive is a substitute for common sense. I can't believe how many people I have heard say "I don't need winter tires I have four wheel drive".

Somewhat like the visitor from Japan I met on the ski lift today. She was just learning to snowboard and before heading off (on a pretty steep slope) she gleefully told me, in her rudimentary English: "I don't know how to stop." :shock:

I own a 2wd element, didn't see a need for the AWD. Sure it would be a little nicer in the snow, but it's front wheel drive. I won't be taking it down any distant trails, so I have nothing to worry about. Except the stock tires.

I drove a 2wd V6 Blazer with engine work through two winters just fine.

We just had a somewhat decent snowfall last week in Toronto. There was a Lincon Naviagator in front of me at the lights who, i guess, wanted to impress me as no one else was at the light. She floors it ... goes sideways and has to do quite a bit of correcting. I cruised by her without any spin. Did'nt give the "look" as i did not need to.

So even if you spend major bucks on an SUV, you can still look silly if you drive like a Pompus Oaf ......

I own a 2wd element, didn't see a need for the AWD. Sure it would be a little nicer in the snow, but it's front wheel drive. I won't be taking it down any distant trails, so I have nothing to worry about. Except the stock tires.

Our back parking lot goes unplowed. I'm hoping the AWD will help me with post-snowfall slow-speed navigation around the four dumpsters and the inevitably badly parked cars at the latin market lot next door.

-brendan

I read threads like this and feel I have to add my two cents worth.
First off you should know that I've owned 3 4WD Suburbans over the last 20 years.
My '04 E is much, much better in the snow that the 'burbans were.
I came home the other night and I live on a curving street that goes uphill to my driveway. I never saw anything on the road or felt any slippage of any kind. I got out of my E and nearly fell on my a$$. I walked out to the mailbox and to my surprise the road and my driveway were covered with a thin layer of ice. Again, I never felt a thing in the E. My suburbans would have never behaved that way.
It's a wonderful little car/truck vehicle if you drive it NORMALLY.

But there's also something else to it, I think.
The wider tires of most SUVs seem to be worse (in snow) than smaller tires. I believe it has something to do with wider tires putting less pressure on the road.

Before I had the E, I remember seeing Jeeps and other SUV even sliding in snow if the started up from a stop.

And an automatic transimission makes things even worse, of course...

Steady and straight ahead works wonders. One tme I got caught on sheer black ice for about 100 miles. Driving an old AWD minivan. The highway looked like a bone yard--carcasses of flipped cars, jackknifed semi's, etc. Recall in particular one Rav4 pass me. It went by in the fast lane (why?). About 20 miles later I passed it -- a jumbled heap in the center divider. Also recall seeing a Suburban trying to come down an on-ramp only to spin and donut before it made it onto the highway. Even the folks trying to get OFF this road to hell were seeing flipped just yards from the offramp--they never made it the offramp and just slid right off the road instead.

Me and my ol' van, I just white knuckled it straight ahead. Was too scared to even change lanes or try to get off. Kept the speed steady at about 30 mph so I never had to brake much. It was the longest 100 miles I ever drove in my life, but thank god, we made it. Eventually, as the day warmed and I got further along, road conditions improved enough to get off.

STEADY AND STRAIGHT AHEAD!

But there's also something else to it, I think.
The wider tires of most SUVs seem to be worse (in snow) than smaller tires. I believe it has something to do with wider tires putting less pressure on the road.

Before I had the E, I remember seeing Jeeps and other SUV even sliding in snow if the started up from a stop.

And an automatic transimission makes things even worse, of course...

My experience with wider tires has been the same in deep snow - a taller narrower tire 'bites' down to a solid surface easier.

Have to disagree with the automatic tranny comment though - I think the auto E will start off in second if you accelerate gently - no slippage anyway and I was on some really icy roads the other night. I find the vehicle is very stable and secure on slippery roads.

Have to disagree with the automatic tranny comment though - I think the auto E will start off in second if you accelerate gently - no slippage anyway and I was on some really icy roads the other night. I find the vehicle is very stable and secure on slippery roads.

That's very interesting. I just like the clutch and the ability to softly shift up or down... But I have to admit, I don't have experience with an automatic Element in snow; used other cars with automatic transmissions.
Seems like another example of Honda really outdoing themselves... :)

The manual of my 99 accord 4cyl told me that if I wanted to go from a stop in slippery conditions to put the auto into 2nd. I assume the same would be true for the 2wd E. I haven't read anything about the 4wd version though. Still learning my week old E. :)

According to the manual, the automatic transmission in '2' does not downshift. This setting then is recomended for use in slippery conditions, when you want to apply torque gently. It is more common for auto transmissions to downshift - i.e. '2' allows the transmission to choose between 1 and 2.

I still have vivid memories of skating across Wisconsin (I94) after a snow storm - while listening to tapes of the LOR (the version that NPR put out some years ago). This was in a Trooper II. However driving slow and steady was more important than its 4wd.

paulj

Problem solved. My parents bought an 05 Pilot and I'm getting my Element tomorrow!!!!!!!!
YEAH FOR ME!!!!!
L.

Congratulations!!! A win-win for everyone in the family! :)

Lance

2004 Fiji Blue Pearl EX 4WD Auto

The difference between wide tires and narrow tires on snow or ice is pretty simple. It is all about the contact patch and how it is shaped. The more contact patch the easier it is to slip on ice. The wide the contact patch the harder it is to push through snow. Tall narrow tires are the best choice when driving through snow. Anyone here a fan of WRC? Watch the snow stages and look at how skinny those tires/wheels are... they fly through the turns and would go off the roads using wider tires/wheels.

A snow tire will always out perform an all-season tire in the snow or on ice. The drive train for the most part is a non-factor in the equation. Here is an example to prove the point.

On my Audi TT Quattro I had Nokian NRWs. They are, or at least were one of the best winter tires you can buy. When we were blanketed with about 2+ feet of snow a few years ago I drove back home from CT to Long Island in the snow. The roads were for the most part "unpassable", but I didn't have a single problem driving through 12"-16" of snow. Never got stuck, never had a tire slip and lose traction to the point of where I thought I would go off the road. I had 3 different SUVs try to follow me and keep up. Not a single one was able to. Two of them actually spun multiple times in trying to catch me. As I got closer to home I would go around the traffic on the side streets by going where the plows hadn't plowed yet and going through the deep snow. Everyone was slipping in the plowed areas and I was looking to get home in a reasonable amount of time, that wouldn't have happened driving behind those barely moving road hazards.

When I pulled out into the deep snow a Navigator decided to follow me. He had the stock 30"+ tires and could not move at all. I watched as he fish-tailed and saw he was getting pissed as my little "sports car" just drove on through the snow like a SnoCat! :)

Now, I know I am not the norm when it comes to driving in snow/ice conditions. My Dad showed me many years ago how to drive in the snow. We went to a parking lot and he explained how to get into and out of skids. How to properly control a car in any situation. I then took those lessons and added to that knowledge by racing cars for 15 years. Over the years I have taught driving courses and have taken winter driving schools as well.

If you are going to drive in snow/ice then get proper tires, otherwise expect to eventually have problems. "All-Season" tires are all about compromises. They are designed to be decent in dry and wet conditions and just better than a summer tire in the winter. Also not all tires are created equal, just like all drivers are not created equal. Just think back to how bad most people drive when it is raining... they get far worse when the white stuff begins to fall.

As to the differences between manual and automatic transmissions and how they work in the snow/ice. Honestly there is not much difference. You have gears to use in both types of transmissions. Learn to use them both and it really won't matter which your choice is. In some cases an automatic could be better and easier to get unstuck... there are times where you need to be able to press all 3 pedals and if you can't heel/toe properly you could have trouble. Don't have that issue with an auto... just left foot brake. :)

As I have told and shown many people over the years.. at the first snow fall head to the largest empty parking lot you can find and take your car to the limits in slow speed handling maneuvers. Drive both forward and in reverse. Learn what you can and can't do with your E, learn what the hand brake does while ina straight line, in a turn left and right. See if it can be helpful in a given situation. Have a passenger in the car with you and switch off, talk to the other person about what you did right or wrong. An hour in a parking lot could save you, your E and other around you when out on the road.

I could go on and offer some tips, but that is not what this thread was really about. Sorry for being so long winded. :)

Thanks Larry. That was a very worthwhile post. I wish that some of our driving population here in the DFW area could read it. Ice and snow is pretty rare here, but when it rains here, that film of oily grime on the road rises right up on top of the water and makes the road seem like they are ice covered. Many don't realize that until it's too late. When it does snow here, the best tip is to just stay at home. The snow will be melted by noon! :-D

Thanks for the great info. I'm fairly experienced in snow/ice, but I never thought much about it but "drive straight, be careful, plenty of space, and no sudden moves."

Now I'm trying to figure out what parking lot to go to when we finally have a good snow. I'd love to get snow tires, but for my life, it seems excessive (not many miles, rarely required to drive, often ride bus, etc). I'll have to get some cables just in case, and I'll be sure to find out what my E can do.

Thanks for the great info. I'm fairly experienced in snow/ice, but I never thought much about it but "drive straight, be careful, plenty of space, and no sudden moves."

Now I'm trying to figure out what parking lot to go to when we finally have a good snow. I'd love to get snow tires, but for my life, it seems excessive (not many miles, rarely required to drive, often ride bus, etc). I'll have to get some cables just in case, and I'll be sure to find out what my E can do.
I understand where you are coming from with your mantra; "drive straight, be careful, plenty of space, and no sudden moves." But driving in snow as driving in any other types of conditions is all about the sudden moves. That's why I recommended to practice tossing the E around in a parking lot. Glad you are going to take the advice. :) Let me know if you learn anything... and also how much fun it actually is.

Have you ever had to change lanes at 65 (or higher) in dry weather conditions? What about in the rain? I actually had to change lanes in my E within the first few hundred miles, actually the day I picked it up and was driving home. I had to make a lane change at 70mph to avoid a truck retread that was in my lane. The E handled it beautifully, no squealing tires, no back end wiggling.

One thing I did a few years ago with my TT was race on ice; frozen lake up in MA. What a blast that was. Really learn about car control. Want to go back and do that again some day.

This morning my wife got stuck trying to climb an icy hill in her AWD E. With much effort we did finally reach the sumit, but she was still unable to drive without help pushing. This is when I realized that only the front wheels were spining.

While on the hill, in the ice, there was no doubt that both front and back wheels were trying there best (all be it only one front and only one rear wheel at a time :-) 3 other guys came out to help me push my wife's E and sometime there after is when the back wheels stopped spinning.

One of the guys who was helping suggested that this was normal, that after a time of excessive load, the rear wheels would 'take a break'. This I Doubt! But hours later (still stuck, parked on the side of the road) we returned and spun the wheels to confirm that only the front wheels recieved any power.

I suspect something is terribly wrong. In the morning we will be calling our local Honda service dept, but in the mean time, does anyone have any advice?????

And a brief note to the E fans, we live outside of Cincinnati, OH and we just recieved 9 inches of snow this includes some 5 to 6 inches of ice that fell all last night. The snow is so thick and icy that I can walk on top of it, and let me tell you I am one big heavy guy too. I doubt that many vehicles could have climbed this hill without chains and perhaps some kind of traction control system that would apply power to all of the wheels evenly.

The guys were right about "rear weels taking a break". When fluid in AWD system gets too hot, the system shuts itself down to allow the fluid to cool down. This is a feature of this type of AWD system.

I've read in here that the 4wd system does have an overheat protection built in and it will turn off to 'take a break'. I'm not sure how long it takes the break, I would assume no longer then an hour or so of not driving it.

Several hours of a crispy Cincinnati day should probably have cooled AWD enough to allow rear wheels to kick in again...

Besides this overheating switch, the system has an overload preventer. So if you try too hard to get the wheels to spin, the rear wheels won't kick in. Gently, gently. If wheels are spinning, consider starting in 2nd. You'll get further, awd or not, by treading the gas as gently lightly as possible.

paulj

I read the post about spinning out in the deep ice and snow in Cinn but I have a complete different story to tell. We left from STL (to Charleston WV)on Thursday morning AND I-64 was shut down at Evansville Indiana. We went south on 57 to hit 24 and the parkway to Lexington. Driving conditions were very bad, the worst I have driven on. We stopped overnight and on Friday morning we left from Princton KY to Charleston WV. I can say one thing about the E. This thing is amazing in the snow (as long as you take your time and don't overdrive the conditions). I passed many other 4WD vehicles that had a rough time (they were sitting on the side of the road backwards, or flipped over). The little "ug-box" just kept going. I didn't slip or slide one time that made me feel uncomfortable. We'll I slipped one time, IN THE WALMART PARKING LOT IN Princeton KY. But I meant to do that.

By the way, KY was hit VERY hard with ice (the trees we beautiful, when I could look) and I had NO problems. If we were in our van we would be spending Christmas in KY at a motel. The "E-Machine" is a good snow vehicle, just watch out and don't overdrive the conditions!!!

Disclaimer - This post is in no way forcing you to put your lives at risk to try out the Elements handling prowess in ice and snow. Readers should operate their Es on managable roads at the recommended speeds set forth by the state in which you travel.

Glad you had a safe ...and exciting...trip, Tromba. As has been mentioned many times recently, gentle use of the loud pedal is most important in icy/snowy conditions. BTW, were your tires the OEM (Mileage???) or snows? So many of those people off the road were there because of poor braking skills, not because they had big 4WD SUVs. Driving as if you had bald, summer tires would probably eliminate most of those winter time accidents...

Any update bearsloft ? Is your 4wd still horked? did it start working again?

Update: We could not go to the dealer last Friday, as it was Christmas Eve and then there was all that freakin snow and Ice closing everything else down. So later that day, we went up to get the E out. And with a little help off it went. My wife has been driving the slick roads with impunity ever since.

While I have not SEEN with my own eyes whether or not the back wheels are turning, my testimony is that they must be. Because the E handles like a good dream once again.

Like I said the previous morning, when conditions were absolutley at there worst, she road those tires hard. I saw the speedometer hit 45 (while the E barely moved). Ya I told her not to do that. . . but she was driving, and a little gas just did not get us anywhere. So we worked for at least an hour, perhaps an hour and a half.

So, I suppose the answer is simply that there must be some kind of over heat shut off. I still intend to bug the dealer about this though, and when I find out for sure I will post it here.

Also, during the storm, we got caught on 75 S. It took us 4 hours to travel 1/2 mile from downtown Cincinnati to the first exit across the river in KY (the only place to exit). When we did get off we took some serious back roads to get home.

For those who know Cincy you might appreciate this. We took Ky Rt 8 West past Anderson Ferry and climbed the mountain, Ky 20 near the Airport. All this in 9 inches of snow and ice up a very steep twisting road and far far far from anyone who might help if needed. and the E performed beautifully!!!!!

But then the next morning. . . the problems started . . . and ended, hopefully.

As described in one of the references in this thread [merged]


"2..... RT4WD has a pressure valve built into it. If you try to "slam" the rear differential with torque, the system goes into self defense mode. A spring-loaded pressure valve is built into the device. It is adjusted to allow a certain amount of pressure in the pump system. If too much pressure is generated, the fluid overwhelms the spring and opens the valve (thus reducing the pressure and shutting it down). "

"Another characteristic of the design is its ability to overheat. As the clutch packs engage over and over again, they build up heat. If this generates enough heat, the system opens a venting valve and shuts down to cool off. The CR-V will still function in FWD mode. RT4WD resumes as soon as the heat is dissipated. This does not damage the system. The process prevents damage.... "

Thanks Paulj.

bearsloft's last post convinced me that it was infact just the protection. His first post made me think that it never worked again and was going to need servicing.



-gaz

I had the OEM tires and I only purchased the E in July so the tires only have 8000 miles on them. I am glad things are working out for you.

K

Thanks for the info PaulJ and all.

Bear

Tromba- Quote:"If we were in our van we would be spending Christmas in KY at a motel."

Is that the state or the jelly?:)

ON all 4WD Elements, there is a failsafe mechanism that disengages the 4WD, thus converting it to Front Wheel Drive vehicle. This occurrs when the temp sensor on the 4WD is triggered.

Anybody ever thought of making a swith to allow operators to manually turnon/off 4WD???

I think this is a real solution to fuel economy minded individuals!!!

There's been lots of talk about modifying the awd system, but no action! No one has acted on my suggestion to buy a junk CRV (or earlier Civic wagon) and open up its dual-pump unit.

Do you have any ideas of how you will hook up your switch?

You are aware, aren't you, that this thermal switch is a mechanical one inside the self contained dual-pump unit? Probably it involves a bimetal element that changes shape with temperature, which in turns opens a valve that allows the pump oil to bypass the clutch pack piston. So your idea will require openning up the unit and altering the oil flow paths. There are no electrical wires to and from the awd that you can splice into or modify.

paulj

Question?
Isn't the 4WD normally disengaged; only engaging when a sensor detects slippage from the front wheels? Isn't the heat sensor there only to disengage the 4WD once it has been engaged?
Wouldn't you actually need a switch that would engage the 4WD manually? Not disengage it once it is active?

The RT4WD is normally disengaged, but it does impose some mechanical drag - swirling the dual-pump oil around, spinning the rear differential. Reducing that drag probably requires disconnecting both the rear drive shaft, and the half axles to the rear wheels.

Damn, the title of this post is decieving..haha.

I read it and thought "HOLY CRAP FINALLY".

It sounds like its pretty much re-working how the AWD and 2WD switch back and forth, as opposed to adding some sort of a switch. What a fantastic mod that would make though.

I think all of you who are so intent on having AWD status lights and switches should sell your Elements and buy some 4WD truck or SUV with manual locking hubs...why do you all insist on trying to re-invent the wheel?:?

why do you all insist on trying to re-invent the wheel?

Because I want to use my AWD on my "wheel" when I want to, not when my car feels its needed. Cars tend to start being really stupid after 6 or 7 years.

I dont own a Macintosh for the exact same reasons.

What the Element needs is a joy stick traction control. Hold it in the middle, and equal power is sent to all wheels. Shove it forward, and most of the torque does to the front. To the left, it all goes to the left wheels. Left forward, and only the left front wheel gets power. Probably could do away with the steering wheel with this control. Maybe even get rid of the differentials. When you go around a corner you decide how much how fast the outer wheels turn compared to the inner ones. In other words, a fully manual version of the new Acura RL AWD system.

paulj

If paul was a computer he'd be like KIT from knightrider.

What the Element needs is a joy stick traction control. Hold it in the middle, and equal power is sent to all wheels. Shove it forward, and most of the torque does to the front. To the left, it all goes to the left wheels. Left forward, and only the left front wheel gets power. Probably could do away with the steering wheel with this control. Maybe even get rid of the differentials. When you go around a corner you decide how much how fast the outer wheels turn compared to the inner ones. In other words, a fully manual version of the new Acura RL AWD system.

paulj

:grin: Could you imagine the carnage given the "skills" of the average driver?

If and when someone figures out how to wire in a switch........whats going to happen if there is a problem with the rear diff and the dealer refuses warranty service due to an owner modification?

why do you all insist on trying to re-invent the wheel? (Genom)

Because I want to use my AWD on my "wheel" when I want to, not when my car feels its needed. Cars tend to start being really stupid after 6 or 7 years.

I dont own a Macintosh for the exact same reasons.

No vehicle will ever give you complete control over power to each wheel. At some point there's gonna be a differential or some other device which makes the decisions of left/right, front/rear.

It's a question of how much automation you want versus manual override for when the automation makes a dumb decision on your behalf.

The Element is not a serious off-road vehicle in either chassis or drivetrain design, and so you get in exchange an automatic system with a negligble negative impact on performance and MPG.

I understand modding the thing if it can be done if only for geeks' sake but Genom is still right --- for the level of control and performance desired you'd probably have to step up to a truck, not a car that merely looks like a truck.

None of which has anything in reality to do with sier's last two sentences. But perception --- ah --- that's a whole 'nother topic. Maybe it's just that the grass is always greener when ya doesn't have a "feature."

As for me, I'm not so much on features per se and the so-called "freedom" to have "ultimate choice" as I am benefits . And that's why I use Macs.

Oh yeah, its totally a geek thing. I understand its not intended for that purpose and, if someone actually did it I probably wouldnt do it..haha. I would be very interested to see how that would be done though, just in case I actually decided that I wanted to test it.

I dont seriously expect the Element to be modded in such fashions and still be a "from home to work to the store" type of vehicle.

I admire the ingenuity of it all though, so I totally support it if theres another geek out there like me. UNITE!!!

I'd love to see it done and how its done. BUT...after coming from warranty questions regarding just bolt ons and the hondata k-pro ecu in the RSX, I am not prepared to loose a warranty again. I got lucky and got rid of the RSX before anything major happened.

Again, I'd love to see how someone would do this and see it done. Good luck to whomever tries it and I'll be sure to consider it once the warranty is up!

Aside from the whole geek thing, I'm just curious, I keep seeing this topic pop up and even if this were possible,
why would you want to? :confused:

There would be no change in MPG due to the fact that stock it runs in two wheel drive unless the front tires are slipping.
If the front tires are slipping it mean either:

1. Your hot rodding it, in which case MPG does not really matter and having the rears kick in for extra traction would be a good thing.
<or>
2. Your on a slick surface, and again, the rears kicking in would be a good thing and more than likely if a choice was given, the E would be in dedicated AWD which actually would lower your MPG when compared to the vehicle only directing power to the rear when necessary.

To each their own and if anyone could figure out a way to make this one work I would love to see it. :shock:

I have experience with all types of 4WD and AWD vehicles and I am no fan of electronic nannies or idiot lights, but this kind of comes across like buying an automatic transmission and then complaining because it shifts for you. :roll:

Just my .02...geek on. :grin:

this kind of comes across like buying an automatic transmission and then complaining because it shifts for you.
Well put. AMC wrung its hands over this issue with the Eagle, which they introduced with part-time (like Honda's), automatic AWD. Some writers and owners thought there was a big mpg penalty in 4-wheel. Not true, yet the company redesigned the system so that it had to be manually selected--with the car stationary. In the final years, AWD could be selected "on the fly" (though you still had to sort of step into it, as with an automatic clutch). IMO the changes just added complexity for no real benefit.

The AWD version has to suffer some penalty due to weight and friction, but not enough to sweat.

I really dont mean to come across as complaining about not being able to switch to AWD manually. I think the way it works right now is perfect (it handled in the snow like no other vehicle ive had), but I like the idea of tinkering with things..haha.

The downfall is I break quite a bit of things. My wife says my hands are where "small electronics go to die"

I really dont mean to come across as complaining about not being able to switch to AWD manually. I think the way it works right now is perfect (it handled in the snow like no other vehicle ive had), but I like the idea of tinkering with things..haha.

The downfall is I break quite a bit of things. My wife says my hands are where "small electronics go to die"


LMAO!!!!!!! Thats the funniest thing ive heard all week.

Is it true that when one of the front wheels slip you will just start driving the rear wheel for a second or two, untill the front stops spinning and then you are back to two wheel drive again in the front? In other words you are never driving all four wheels at once?

In normal conditions all power is sent to the front differential, which distributes it to the 2 front wheels in the normal manner. The rear wheels go along for the ride.

If the front wheels spin faster than the rear (for any reason), some power is sent to the rear differential (30-70% of the total according some descriptions), and then to the rear wheels - again in manner that is normal for a differential.

paulj

I recall reading that the 4WD system will only work if the car is already in motion and then monitors wheel turning differences between front and back..
From a start, if one wheel is is sand or mud or ice , it just spins..
Kind of useless for a 4WD system...
I hope I'm wrong for your sake...
I remember reading about this when my curiosity was triggered after seeing a CRV in a Dealer's lot stuck in a Parking spot unable to move forward or back....

Real-Time 4WD = Part-Time 4WD

Basically, that's what Honda should have called it. No rear locked-differential on our cars results in one front driving wheel and one rear driving wheel.

I count two....where are the other two?

The system does not monitor anything.

There are 2 drive shafts from the transmission - one to the front differential, one heading back to the 'rt4wd' unit (sometimes also called the dual pump).
At the other end this unit is connected to the rear differential (physically they share the same housing).

Inside the dual pump unit there are 2 oil pumps, one turned by the rear drive shaft, the other turned by the rear differential. If the 2 pumps are turning at roughly the same speed (e.g. the rear wheels rolling along nicely behind the front ones), the oil just circulates. However if the drive shaft pump turns faster than the differential pump, oil pressure builds up, and presses on some clutch plates. These plates in turn send power through the dual pump unit to the rear differential, which operates the rear wheels.

I have given more detailed references to this operation elsewhere.

So there are 2 fundamental inputs to the rt4wd - the output of the transmission, and the spin of the rear wheels (as 'interpreted' by the rear differential). The output of the transmission also determines the speed of rotation of the front wheels (again, as 'interpreted' by the front differential).

paulj

No rear locked-differential on our cars results in one front driving wheel and one rear driving wheel.

Talk of 'one driving wheel' (either axle) is misleading. With an open differential, either both wheels on an axle are moving you forward, or neither is. It is never the case that one wheel is driving you forward, while the other is doing nothing. One may be spinning freely, and the other stopped, but in that case, neither is doing any work.

With a locked differential it is possible for one wheel to be turning freely (on ice or in the air) while the other is doing the work of moving the car. But locking differentials are rare in production cars.

More common is some form of limited slip differential. The Honda Pilot has something like this in its rear axle. The Acura RL has an even more sophisticated system that can send a mojority of power to one wheel (such as the outer rear one on a turn).

paulj

If I remember reading correctly (sorry, can't remember where, but possibly the owners' manual). That the 4wd mode is automatically disengaged when applying the brakes in order to allow the abs to operate properly. In order for that to function, I would assume that there must be a relay connected to the brake pedal wiring to send the signal to cut out the 4wd engagement.

If that actually is the case, then creating a "switch" would be relatively simple, buy a cheap toggle switch, connect to the wiring coming out of the brake relay already there and viola you'd have you disengagement switch for the 4wd.

There are some assumptions in all that, so I could be totally wrong, but when I had an SVT Focus, a bunch of guys were able to use relay swtiches to disengage the traction control/abs for autox racing. Some folks wanted it for the street, but wanted to retain abs (they were on the same fuse), so another relay solved the problem. We were effectively able to disengage traction control (yes there's a factory disengagement button, but it does not completely disengage it) and abs, or one or the other.

If I remember reading correctly (sorry, can't remember where, but possibly the owners' manual). That the 4wd mode is automatically disengaged when applying the brakes in order to allow the abs to operate properly. In order for that to function, I would assume that there must be a relay connected to the brake pedal wiring to send the signal to cut out the 4wd engagement.
If you can find where you read that, please let us know, 'cause it's counter to anything I can glean from the service manual.

The "Real-Time AWD" is completely mechanical - there are no electrical components anywhere in the control. Somebody mentioned the thermal cutoff, and that, too, is nothing more than a bimetal strip which opens a valve. There is also another relief valve which prevents the AWD from engaging at too-high torques, like when you're lighting-up the front tires on dry pavement. :grin:

Anything is possible given enough time and money, of course, but a "simple" mod to selectively engage and/or disable the AWD isn't in the cards. If it were doable without a complete teardown and a whole bunch of workbench engineering, I'd be first in line.

Oh... PS... the R-T AWD clutch system is located in the rear differential, not the transmission. You'll notice there are no wires going to it.

The detailed description (from Quebec CRV) does talk of 4wd not being activated when brakes are applied, in the forward direction. However it can send power to the rear wheels when in reverse and braking. I don't recall an explanation on how that works. It may just be a consequence of the brake system being biased toward applying greater force on the front brakes, hence those wheels will turn slower, especially on forward braking.

It is helpful to keep in mind that there are only 2 inputs to the RT4WD unit - the drive shaft from the transmission (which is turning at the same rate as the drive shaft to the front differential), and the center output/input of the rear differential. All other action is hydralics internal to the unit.

paulj

Disabling the dual pump unit would do nothing to improve fuel economy....The drive shaft is still driven from the front,the rear half shafts still turn,the oil in the rear end still swirls,so whats the point???

I had a 2 wheel drive and now a AWD and I really don't understand the point of this thread.....

Dan Cas

The detailed description (from Quebec CRV) does talk of 4wd not being activated when brakes are applied, in the forward direction. However it can send power to the rear wheels when in reverse and braking. I don't recall an explanation on how that works. It may just be a consequence of the brake system being biased toward applying greater force on the front brakes, hence those wheels will turn slower, especially on forward braking.
Now that I read the service manual descriptions in greater detail (they're a real eye-glazer), apparently it more or less is supposed to work that way, based on that assumption - the fronts will ostensibly be turning slower than the rears. Apparently the AWD clutch is setup to engage only if the fronts are moving faster than the rears, in either direction of travel.

However, during deceleration/braking in reverse the AWD can be engaged, due to the same phenomenon - the wheels in the direction of travel (in reverse, the rears) will be turning slower than the trailing wheels (in reverse, the fronts).

What has me mystified is that in a non-ABS vehicle, the rears are going to lock-up during hard braking long before the "fronts turn slower". There's no explanation of that process in the manual beyond what we already know about the torque-limiting relief valve.

It bothers me a little that you don't have AWD engine braking in slippery conditions and the control that it adds. They've overanalyzed this into a "feature" rather than the "implementation limitation" it really is.

Donuts in the parkinglot were AWESOME, I could play with the clutch and gas and get the rear spin around the front in place. I was like a dancer out there.... then after about 10-15 minutes of dancing in the parkinglot the fun stopped. I'm pretty sure the heat-protection in the 4wd must have turned on because it was all fwd understeer. On the way home I felt the rear kick in a few times so I'm guessing I just pushed it too hard. what a blast though.

What was the temperature?

Dan Cas

23 degrees F. outside right now, I guess it might have been 25f outside when I the 4wd overheated. Like I said though, I was there for like 15 minutes with the 4wd engaged the whole time. and I wasn't moving very far, like standing still alot of the time just spinning in circles so there wasn't much air movement, and it was back to normal on my return trip home. It was nice to see it in action, and nonaction. I went back out again, and it engaged normally. I was totally impressed with how it handled in the snow. Wish I had someone with me to video the fun, but neighbors weren't around, and wife is pregnant. Next time I guess.

23 degrees F. outside right now, I guess it might have been 25f outside when I the 4wd overheated. Like I said though, I was there for like 15 minutes with the 4wd engaged the whole time. and I wasn't moving very far, like standing still alot of the time just spinning in circles so there wasn't much air movement, and it was back to normal on my return trip home. It was nice to see it in action, and nonaction. I went back out again, and it engaged normally. I was totally impressed with how it handled in the snow. Wish I had someone with me to video the fun, but neighbors weren't around, and wife is pregnant. Next time I guess.

nice i was also impressed with the handling today
i was whizzing by alot of high end suv's today

dunno if it was the AWD, the new tire/wheel combo OR tha ti have more balls behind the wheel :)

I put winter tires on mine(low end Coopers) and the difference is unreal.It doesn't want to spin at all,so some of the fun is gone.

I had a 2 wheel drive E before,and the E is pretty helpless as a 2 WD.I had 2 winter tires from the 03 2WD,so I bought 2 more for the 05 AWD.Real grippy.

I'm surprised it overheated at ~25*.Probably wouldn't last long at all in the summer in mud/sand.

Dan Cas

My dad was driving the E last night. It was snowing and slippery. When passing someone, it seemed the AWD would kick in and out, in and out, kind of a fish tail effect. He didn't like this. He said this isn't how it should be working. Does this sound like the system is working properly? Cuz, when the front tires slip, isn't that when the rears are engaged. And if one slips do both rear tires engage or just one? Can anyone explain how the AWD system works?
Thanks
L.


Just making excuses for a bad decision! Point an AWD E straight and it real time system does a great job!!

Does anyone know of a way to Phych the car out to make it all wheel drive all the time? I know there is a vtchec actuater, but is there a awd one?

Not that I've seen...

It's a automatic mechanical system, not something that you can throw an electrical switch on. The only way I can think of is to replace most of the system.
It's like trying to get your washer to dry your clothes. It ain't gonna work without extensive modification. :roll:
There have been discussions on this before explaining why it wouldn't work if you search around.

Does anyone know of a way to Phych the car out to make it all wheel drive all the time? I know there is a vtchec actuater, but is there a awd one?

its Psych & VTEC

Thanks Larry. That was a very worthwhile post. I wish that some of our driving population here in the DFW area could read it. Ice and snow is pretty rare here, but when it rains here, that film of oily grime on the road rises right up on top of the water and makes the road seem like they are ice covered. Many don't realize that until it's too late. When it does snow here, the best tip is to just stay at home. The snow will be melted by noon! :-D

Also, i have found that many people like to drive on the first and last lane on the freeways here in california. (ok during dry conditions, but once it rains...) when it rains, your best choice is to stay in or as close to the center lane. Water will run down to the sides on a freeway and is also one of the first lanes that will have that oily grime gone.

Also, we recently had a down pour here in orange county, out of no where it starts pooring on the freeway and i see red lights all in front of me and i see a couple cars spin out. when it starts raining on the freeway, you should let the weight of the car slow you down. not the brakes.

Thanks but i didn't think that this was a spelling be pal. Your the man

Thanks but i didn't think that this was a spelling be pal. Your the man

It's a Spelling Bee...

Sorry, I'm a smartas

The J

Ps. Your the man implies that he owns the man, and NOONE owns me.

Thanks but i didn't think that this was a spelling be pal. Your the man

Well as "The J" pointed out
be - bee.... nope this is not a spelling BEE but if you want answers to your questions . It would be nice if they were in English or some form of it.

Well as "The J" pointed out
be - bee.... nope this is not a spelling BEE but if you want answers to your questions . It would be nice if they were in English or some form of it.

The man is yours.
:razz:

Well at least I know that I don't have to waste my time with spell check. Thanks again for the grammer and spelling help. I owe ya one.

what is the power distribution for the AWD Element? on the CRV i heard it was 80/20, is it the same?

Default torque distribution is 100/0. It can change up to about 30/70. For details read:

http://www.quebeccrv.com/other/rtawd.pdf

Default torque distribution is 100/0. It can change up to about 30/70. For details read:

http://www.quebeccrv.com/other/rtawd.pdf

paulj, Thank you.
I read the service manual but this write-up is quantitative. It's an impressive system.

The French title sheet sort of scared me though....

I am wondering if there is a way to tell when the AWD in on. I can definetly tell when i am traveling in the winter but i am having a harder time when traveling on a dirt road. I just want to make sure the AWD isnt on all the time. I have been told that you can pull the fuse for the summer but havent done so yet. I need more info. any help? I did have an issue with some noise coming from the rear last month but it went away when i changed my rear differential fluid, i found it was low and that a honda tech told me this was happening. I basically just want to know if the AWD is working properly and if there is an easy way to tell. I dont feel like going to the dealer right now, that of course would be probably be the easiest way.

I have been told that you can pull the fuse for the summer but havent done so yet.

At how many miles was this rear diff oil change done?

Regarding the fuse, do you know which one to pull? How knowledgeable was this person who told you about the fuse? Does the fuse diagram and list in the manual help?

There are a number of threads in the off-roading section that explain the RT4WD system.

paulj

rear differential change was done at 40,000 miles. a friend of mine told me about the fuse. he said a friend of his told him he pulled the fuse in his subaru. i will probably just take it to the dealer and have it checked. i feel it is pretty stupid to pull the fuse on a newer vehicle. i wouldnt do it anyways,i would be thinking something would screw up afterwards.

Honda doesn't use the same system as Subaru. The RT4WD used on the Element and CRV is completely self contained, with no wires or external controls. When you changed the oil you might have noticed that there is no wiring near the differential or RT4WD unit attached to it.

In a sense it is always 'on'. The oil is circulated by 2 pumps, one connected to the rear drive shaft, and one connected to the input to the differential. Most of the time both pumps turn at the same rate, effortlessly circulating the oil. However if you spin the front wheels (on snow, ice, mud, or wet pavement), the drive shaft pumps spins faster, building up oil pressure that causes a clutch to act, and passing some torque through the unit to the rear differential.

So, if you don't want to send power to the rear wheels, don't spin the front ones.

Check this thread for more details
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10295

Honda doesn't use the same system as Subaru. The RT4WD used on the Element and CRV is completely self contained, with no wires or external controls. When you changed the oil you might have noticed that there is no wiring near the differential or RT4WD unit attached to it.

In a sense it is always 'on'. The oil is circulated by 2 pumps, one connected to the rear drive shaft, and one connected to the input to the differential. Most of the time both pumps turn at the same rate, effortlessly circulating the oil. However if you spin the front wheels (on snow, ice, mud, or wet pavement), the drive shaft pumps spins faster, building up oil pressure that causes a clutch to act, and passing some torque through the unit to the rear differential.

So, if you don't want to send power to the rear wheels, don't spin the front ones.

thanks for the information, that explains it clearly.

Check this thread for more details
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10295


thanks for the information, that explains it clearly.

this is my first time post ..so excuse the lingo...
how does the realtime 4wd system work....since there is no shifter to put in 4wd and there is no locking hubs.....thank you:confused:

There are a number of threads on this topic, mostly under 'off the beaten track'. Here's one with links to various descriptions:

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=92847

So I will apologize ahead of time if this topic has ben discussed already.
How does the 4WD or Real-time 4WD work in the E?
Is it part-time or AWD?
What are the power percentages between the axles when it is in 4WD?
Does it ever go out of 4WD to be FWD only?
You know if I ask a salesman he will look at me like a cow at a new gate.:confused:

The RT4WD has been discussed alot. But basically, the E is a FWD vehicle for 99% of the time. if the front wheels slip- or the front wheels are spinning at a different rate than the back, then the 4WD kicks in and the back wheels are given power. So you are driving a FWD car most of the time. Does the OP need it in LA as long as he spends a majority of time in LA on the road? No. If the OP likes to go to Mammoth or Joshua Tree, and is rolling around in the desert and mountains alot, then maybe it would be useful. Course the last time I was in the mountains, the rangers who were checking for chains on 2WD vehicles said "thats a 4WD, right?" and let me go without looking, so you might get by with a 2WD with some good tires...

Normally 2WD; rear wheels engage only when the front wheels slip. 4WD system is automatic, with no driver-operated controls. It is completely mechanical, no computers involved. There is no indicator light to tell you when it's working.

How it works in detail (http://www.quebeccrv.com/other/rtawd.pdf) (PDF)

Feel free to read some of the many discussions on this topic for more info.

the 4wd is more like a traction control that on all the time right? can you manually put it in 4wd or does it automatically sense slippage? (mainly asking about the 2003 models)

so that would make the elements drivetrain to be a full-time AWD (all wheels spinning all the time like a subaru) vehicle or is it mainly FWD if it senses slippage?

so that would make the elements drivetrain to be a full-time AWD (all wheels spinning all the time like a subaru) vehicle or is it mainly FWD if it senses slippage?
Front wheel drive with rear wheel assist when the fronts are slipping...

so that would make the elements drivetrain to be a full-time AWD (all wheels spinning all the time like a subaru) vehicle or is it mainly FWD if it senses slippage?

Mainly FWD; AWD comes into play when spin is sensed.

The types of electronic wizardry out there are:

1) Fancy active traction control as found on pricier cars. As I mentioned above, this works VERY well at actually saving you from a spin. I have it on a 2004 Porsche; this weekend I drove it 800 miles through the mountains of N. Carolina and Tennessee with no other purpose than attacking those beautiful mountain roads. The Porsche Stability Management system (which can be switched off) actively interferes if it senses a slip angle greater than (I believe) 12%, but don't hold me to that number. This means it can tell if the rear, for instance, of the car is actually sliding sideways, not just if the rear tires are spinning because you are trying to accelerate too fast for conditions. If so, it applies the brakes on the wheel(s) that is slipping and/or reduces engine power until the slip comes under control. This type of Stability Management is effective against both wheelspin and slip angle.

2) traditional traction control. Senses wheelspin using ABS sensors and tries to prevent it by cutting engine power and/or applying brakes lightly.

3)Part-time electronic AWD. Sends power to rear wheels when slip is sensed. Otherwise, car behaves as a FWD car.

Matt

4) Purely mechanical part-time 4WD. The Element uses a hydraulic pump to engage the rears differential when the front wheels spin; no electronics involved. See Accessories, Care and Mods > Under The Hood / Performance > 4WD Differential Description (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32069). A more technical explanation in this PDF (http://www.quebeccrv.com/other/rtawd.pdf).

+1 on NoGaBiker's point that 4WD is not really a safety feature, except insofar as it might keep you from getting stuck in a dangerous place.

4) Purely mechanical part-time 4WD. The Element uses a hydraulic pump to engage the rears differential when the front wheels spin; no electronics involved. See Accessories, Care and Mods > Under The Hood / Performance > 4WD Differential Description (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32069). A more technical explanation in this PDF (http://www.quebeccrv.com/other/rtawd.pdf).

+1 on NoGaBiker's point that 4WD is not really a safety feature, except insofar as it might keep you from getting stuck in a dangerous place.

You're totally right, Dan. At the time I posted I didn't realize the Honda system was mechanical. Now I do. But yeah, it doesn't change the fact that AWD doesn't help things safety-wise.

Matt

i got my elle in oct and in late nov early dec here in ny state we got dumped on with about 10"s of snow and i was excited to try the new feature. I was very pleased with it even driving in my back yard where snow was untouched (had to get out of my drive way to snow blow) the elle drove like a tank, maybe they changed the set up in newer models?

maybe the fluid in the vehicles that had problems was or is low or degraded?

maybe the fluid in the vehicles that had problems was or is low or degraded?

It might be a good idea to replace the fluid. Every 30,000 miles is a good idea (despite what the books says). We could guess a little better knowing the model year....maybe it is brand new...maybe an '03 ?


Will

Maybe you don't have AWD.........

Maybe the OP doesn't own the Element anymore. This thread is 4 yrs old :)

Hi, what kind of AWD system does the Element use?

Is it a 4WD system, Honda's SH-AWD, or something else?

It is the RT4WD that Honda has used on the CRV for a number of years - primarily front wheel drive. A hydraulically activated clutch pack, attached to the rear differential, passes power to the rear wheels when the front wheels (drive shaft actually) spin faster than the rear ones - ie. when the front wheels spin.

Here's a recent long thread on the topic. I found it by looking for 'quebec' since the best description is posted on a QuebecCRV forum. The link is there.

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42644&highlight=quebec

In short it's a fully mechanical clutched power transfer system that senses when the front wheels slip and transfers power to the rear differential through the dual pump clutch pack in the rear.

That make sense? :rolleyes:

Actually I do...

It's an i-AWD type. Not a 4WD type :D

I have a few 4WD ?s

We drive by and on the edge of the beach a lot and many times need to park on the beach sand.
We do not drive on the beach just park at beach houses in the sand and park just off the road in the sand.

I am afraid if i get a FWD version that i will get stuck a lot as the front part of the car is what will be on the beach sand the most when parking in.

With the 4WD version how dose the 4WD work?
If i am off parked in the sand right off the roadway and the front tires just spin will the back pull me out?
Will all or most of the power at that point go to the back tires or not.

Can you point me to a web site or link that i can read how the 4WD works on a E

Thanks

If i am off parked in the sand right off the roadway and the front tires just spin will the back pull me out?

Yes.

Can you point me to a web site or link that i can read how the 4WD works on a E

Thanks

Here is honda's demo on how it works.

http://automobiles.honda.com/element/features.aspx?Feature=4wd

I have a few 4WD ?s

We drive by and on the edge of the beach a lot and many times need to park on the beach sand.
We do not drive on the beach just park at beach houses in the sand and park just off the road in the sand.

I am afraid if i get a FWD version that i will get stuck a lot as the front part of the car is what will be on the beach sand the most when parking in.

With the 4WD version how dose the 4WD work?
If i am off parked in the sand right off the roadway and the front tires just spin will the back pull me out?
Will all or most of the power at that point go to the back tires or not.

Can you point me to a web site or link that i can read how the 4WD works on a E

Thanks


If that's a factor for you, Just back into the parking space!!

You will not get 100% power ( or more realistically 50% power ) from the rear wheels. The system in the E will only deliver about 20%, as I remember it. There is a good description of the way it works on this site.

Lets see if I can find it.

Try this link:http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11328

I just went to Paulj' post about the 4wd. To add a second link. But none of the links in his post are working. Sorry


Dom

The best description of the Honda 'dual-pump' AWD system used to be available on the QuebecCRV site, but as noted, it apparently is no longer available. I have a copy that I'd be happy to add to an EOC archive (send me a PM)

But I'll try to give a quick overview:

There is a simple transfer case at the output of the transmission that turns the rear drive shaft at the same rate as the input to the front differential.

At the front end of the rear differential, there is a box that has just 2 inputs - the drive shaft, and the input to the rear differential. Both of these drive small oil pumps. When both inputs turn at the same rate, the oil circulates freely. But if the front one spins faster than the rear one, oil pressure builds up, and closes a clutch pack This clutch then connects the drive shaft to the rear differential, effectively passing power to the rear wheels. So in effect, if the front differential spins faster than the rear, the rear will get some power.

In normal driving, the front wheels move the car, while the rear ones go along for the ride. Since they all spin about the same rate, the rear ones don't get any power.

When one front wheel looses traction, it spins freely, while the other front wheel stops (the open differential is sending the same nearly-zero torque to both wheels). Since the rear wheels aren't spinning (so fast), oil pressure builds up in the AWD unit, and power goes to the rear wheels. Once the car starts moving again, speeds equalize, and power to the rear stops. Or, if a rear wheel looses traction as well, everything spins freely - and you don't go anywhere.

One graph in the QuebecCRV pdf shows a brief peak of 70% torque going to the rear wheels. I think the torque split depends strongly on the kind of traction that each wheel gets. For a brief period, the rear differential is forced to spin at about the same rate as the front.

In practice -
- if one or both front wheels looses traction, the rear ones should be able to pull you out.
- it is probably better to back out to solid ground
- continue forward only if you know the front ones will have traction once the rear ones enter the bad spot
- depending on momentum to carry you through the bad spot might work, but then again, it might not.
- the brief transfer of power to the rear wheels can produce severe oversteer. Be prepared to react quickly when powering through a mud hole or slick patch.
- an empty snowy parking lot is the best place to get a feel for how the AWD system works
- if you put one front wheel, and one rear wheel in the bad stuff, you probably will be stuck.
- AWD will be most effective if the front wheels point straight ahead, in the same direction that the rear ones want to move the car. Spinning front wheels have no directional control.
- if you are on the edge of the road, spinning wheels tend to slide further off the road - i.e. downhill
- a burst of power is the best way to break the front wheels loose, and send power to the rear, but it is also the best way to loose control.
- it is better to drive as though you have only front wheel drive, leaving the AWD as a backup.
- the AWD mechanism has a thermostat the prevents over heating of the oil. Driving in a way that activates the mechanism for minutes at at time, may trigger this. Such a cut off has been reported after some 20 minutes on a snow hill climb, or when stuck in a mud hole, or an extended period of play in sand dunes.

Ok Thanks.

I did think about backing in but many times we are all 4 off the road in the sand but most of the time it is hard sand and we are ok we think but sometime it's a little trickey.

We take photos up and down the beach and need to pull off the road in areas with no parking spaces just the side of the road.
Almost never any hills just flat beach.

At beach houses we many times have to drive down a very small sand road to get to the house and may have a hard time turning at that point to back in to park.

I have been doing this with a older Ford mini van one wheel - back wheel drive but with the back tire still on the harder ground it has worked very good to get me out of the front softer sand..

I just found a Orange 04 E today that looks great i want it.. but it is just fwd.
Dam i am not sure what to do now this orange one is the color i want.

With it having both front tires as drive tires maybe that will make the differance i need to get me out when i can not back in.
What do you all think???

As a just in case if i had a fwd version do they have any kind of hook under the body to hook a cable to so i could have a hand crank wench and use it if i had to pull my self out if needed.
Do you think if i had a 3 foot long stake and pounded it into the ground behind the E and used a wench from the E to the stake that would be strong to pull me out.
I could keep all this in the Car for when i might need it.
Stake, Wench, Large hammer. and cameras..

Browse the threads in the off-the-beaten-path section. Driving in sand has been discussed from the beginning.

A nice feature of the Element is its tight turning radius. You might be able to get in and out without getting into the soft stuff. If you have to choose, back on to the soft stuff, leaving the front wheels where they have traction.

There is one solid tow loop in the center of the rear, just behind the bumper. I can loop a large (3/4") bow shackle through it, as well as the hook of a come-along. There are 2 tow loops under the front, but clearance is tighter there - I can only fit 1/2" shackles. To use a come-along there I think I'd need to rig a chain bridle.

I've collected items which I think would be needed to pull myself out of trouble, BUT I have never tested the rig. Rigging a decent anchor would be biggest difficulty given the short travel of a come-along (about 6').

Airing down is supposed to be a great way of improving flotation and traction in sand. Sand boards and shovels are other options. In snow I've successfully used traction mats.

Ground clearance would be the biggest concern in sand. As long as you aren't dragging the bottom through the sand you should have enough traction.

Thanks i will look in the off-the-beaten-path section

Eddie,

I've driven on Pismo several times with no problems.

Does anyone know how long the 4wd system stays engaged once its been activated? Does it cut out, as soon as the front tires stop slipping? or once it engaged for a trip does it remain active? any insight would be helpful, Thanks.

Does anyone know how long the 4wd system stays engaged once its been activated? Does it cut out, as soon as the front tires stop slipping? or once it engaged for a trip does it remain active? any insight would be helpful, Thanks.



Honda Element Owners Club Forum (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/index.php) > FAQ / How To's (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/faq.php) Real Time 4WD Explained (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32069)



Operation
When there is a difference in rotation speed between the front wheels (clutch guide) and rear wheels (hypoid driven gear), hydraulic pressure from the front and rear oil pumps engages the differential clutch, and drive force from the transfer assembly is applied to the rear wheels.
The hydraulic pressure control mechanism in the oil pump body selects 4WD mode when the vehicle is started abruptly, or when accelerating in a forward or reverse gear (causing rotation difference between the front and rear wheels), or when braking in reverse gear (when decelerating). It switches to 2WD mode when the vehicle is driven at a constant speed in forward or reverse gear (when there is no rotation difference between the front and rear wheels), or when braking in a forward gear (when decelerating).
To protect the system, the diff. clutch assembly is lubricated by hydraulic pressure generated by the oil pumps in both 4WD and 2WD modes. Also, the thermal switch relieves the hydraulic pressure on the clutch piston and cancels 4WD mode if the temperature of the diff. fluid rises above normal.

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/search.php?searchid=2681363

Yes. It only engages when the front wheels slip.

http://automobiles.honda.com/element/features.aspx?Feature=4wd

The RealTime AWD system works great, I once scaled an icy, snowy, mossy steep hill with much success. That was right after i drove accross 200 ft of drenched, soggy & muddy grass.

I have to admit, i am not totally pleased with the performance on a snow covered road. But the reason it doesn't perform better has nothing to do with the mechanics or technology. It is because of the weight of the element. The element is so lightweight it can't grip the road as good as it should.

Try throwing a couple of sand bags in the back you will see a huge difference.

This is a quick general question if anyone has a service manual.

How does the AWD engage on 2003's? I want to place some MoS2 in the rear differential but I need to ensure the system is not build around a wet clutch as some AWD's are. Does anyone know for certain if the rear diff is wet clutch or not?

Thanks for any info. I purchased the cheapo ebay manual for tranny schematics but of course this is the one thing it is lacking.

The AWD system is the same on all years, and uses two pumps.

Animation at Honda Web site (http://automobiles.honda.com/element/features.aspx?Feature=4wd)

PDF from QuebecCRV.com (http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/files/rtawd.pdf)

The rear differential uses Honda Dual-Pump II fluid.

Thanks Dan, appreciate your feedback on this. Can I ask though how it engages the system beyond the pumps? Does it apply pump pressure to any clutch disc inside the assembly? When I place MoS2 into the differential I am trying to ensure no clutch assembly is being driven as it will render it useless if one exist. I am trying not to pull the unit apart to find out ;-).

Thanks for the videos, I am going to say yes this is a wet clutch setup. I appreciate your feedback on this one, would have destroyed the AWD :/

The rear differential controls 4WD engagement. There is a clutch pack, and it appears to be immersed in Dual Pump fluid. The QuebecCRV document explains it much better than I could.

The system seems to work pretty well. I wouldn't mess with it.

For most of us, it only engages when the front wheel slips.
Chuck Norris told me Real-Time stays engaged until he tells it to dis-engage.
Who's gonna argue with Chuck Norris..:cool:

It's funny, by me, you go on the expressway in the snow and 70% of the vehicles in the ditches are SUV driving soccer moms.

(taking in a big breath, smelling the sweetness in the air)

Isn't revenge sweet?

:lol:

But then again, they need to sell cars to consumers


Something to do, you know... Otherwise they would be out there tending the fire, collecting firewood, and looking for something to eat every few days (10,000 BC, please!).

But there's also something else to it, I think.
The wider tires of most SUVs seem to be worse (in snow) than smaller tires. I believe it has something to do with wider tires putting less pressure on the road.

Before I had the E, I remember seeing Jeeps and other SUV even sliding in snow if the started up from a stop.

And an automatic transimission makes things even worse, of course...

What people don't understand is that a narrow tire with slightly less air in it can have more surface area contact than a wider tire that doesn't have as much surface contact with the ground. That is done not by the width of the tire necessarily, but by the LENGTH of the tire patch on the ground. Let the air out, and the surface area contact stretches out forwards and back beyond the centerline of contact (not center-to-sides as is thought).

That's why you may want to install on-board-air (OBA) so that you can air down before going up a muddy hill or trail, then air back up before you hit the road. There's been no need to do that thus far. In the few months I've had my CR-V, I don't recall a single incidence of spinning out or going out of control, especially when the roads are muddy or strictly a rock/gravel road. It felt like I was on a dry road. I was really surprised. Nothing like the 2WD cars I've had in the past.

:grin: Could you imagine the carnage given the "skills" of the average driver?

Don't even go there! Most people don't realize that front and rear wheels spin at a different rate when going through a turn, never mind the inside wheel spinning slower than the outside wheel at the same time. I'm not sure even a half-assed driver could manage that relationship AND watch where he's going!

Maybe the OP doesn't own the Element anymore. This thread is 4 yrs old :)

Yeah, I noticed not 5 minutes ago that this thread is 5+ years old!