I have a 5-speed DX. Seems the headlights like to dim(lose brightness) at different times. Mainly when the air conditioner kicks in and out(I know can be normal when sitting at idle, but this happens when driving), but seems to do it at other times also. Since I have the dx do you think it could have something to do with the A/C being added after the fact? Just a thought. Could be a faulty alternator? Piece of S*%t battery? Just thinking here. Any ideas?

Anyhow, if you have had this problem let me know.

Peace :?:

I don't know, but my EX AWD has the same problem.

I do too, but it's only when the AC kicks in. I've never had a car with air conditionaing that didn't do this. The smaller engines are more noticable.

I've noticed that sporadic dimming is usually caused by watching too many assinine prime time Sitcoms.

thanks Dan'O keep paddling!

Yeah Dan, I tried adjusting the "Brightness" but it didn't help!

that's normal.

No it's not normal on most cars. The Element has to small of a battery and charging system.

This is really annoying. It happens when I have my air conditioning off. Its a noticeable dimming. If I have the reading lights on, they dim. I notice the headlights dim as well. Would buying a larger amp battery help cure this? I can't imagine that the electric cooling fan would draw that much power to dim the entire charging system.

Hey Nostood, you hit it on the head, much better explanation than mine. Next oil change might have to ask them about it. Maybe see about getting a better battery or such.

later :lol:

I just got my element and have noticed the headlights dimming, but have yet to figure it out. Has anyone asked the dealer?

it is normal.

replacing the battery won't do jack-crap in this instance. when the a/c compressor kicks in, it draws a huge load from the alternator.

it's happened in my 91 accord, my old 87 corolla, my parents 96 ls400, my grampa's 97 avalon, and even my cousin's 03 bimmer.

That's what concerns me...A/C, I can understand, when the A/C magnetic clutch kicks in its noticable. I'm talking about intermitent dimming when the A/C's off and the electric radiator fan isn't running.

Maybe it's just me, but if you're inside, presumably in the driver's seat, and you're on the highway at cruising speed, how can you possibly know if your cooling fan is "running", unless maybe you have a video camera near the cooling fan to document this phenomenon? And even then, how do you differentiate between the fan freewheeling in the breeze vs. spinning because it's powered?

I've experienced the lights dimming in other small-engined cars for a variety of reasons (all logical), but haven't noticed it yet in my Element. Maybe I'M just dimming in general due to my old age? No doubt, the battery in Elements is a pathetic joke, and I'll be astonished if mine starts when it's been parked outside overnight in 20 degree below zero temperatures, but hey, it hasn't NOT started yet, so I'm just gonna think happy thoughts and try not to worry too much, OK?

Hownow:

Your E needs a plug-in and cord! Thats what they do in Alaska, anyway. Just remember to unplug before you drive away! (Yes I did lose one) :roll:

Every single car I have ever been in does it. It's normal. It has nothing to do with the size of the battery. If you don't want it to happen, buy a bigger capacitor. The headlights will dim EVERY TIME you draw power to another auxiliary source ---> windows, powerful car stereo, power door locks, etc...

Once again, this is PERFECTLY NORMAL, so don't sweat it. You could put a battery the size of a small mammal in your engine bay, and it will still do that.

i have the same problem in my 2001 hyundai santa fe, infact alot of us santa fe owners do... we contribute it to our 95 amp alternator. i heard the element has a 45 amp alternator, so i can only imagine that you guys are having the same problem as us for the same reason, underpowered alternator. a bigger battery wont help at all. it will just take more juice to charge it up. the only other thing i can think to do is add a trickle solar charger to the dash, replace the altenator with a bigger one if possible, or switch to an optima battery that will hold a charge longer. :D

My E does the same thing and so do the E's of two guys that I work with. I am also guessing that it is the small alternator. I have seen other cars do this too but not as bad as my E. I am wondering if there is a bigger capacity alternator on another Honda that might bolt up. I may have to check that out.

There is an outfit that "specializes" in bigger alternators, http://www.mralternator.com. They list Honda models - but not the CR-V or E - with capacities from 120 to 160 Amps. You might give them a call to see if they can help out. I've never bought from them, but they've been discussed in another car forum I frequent as a possible solution.

Anyway, don't forget that more Amps equals more power taken away from moving the vehicle down the road.

I have been wondering about using a large capacitor like the big time audio guys use to keep power to there big amps. I would assume one could be put inline at the battery and would help eliminate the sudden drop in voltage.

>large capacitor

Won't work. Caps are for sudden, very short large loads like driving big thumping woofers. They handle one "BOOMP" at a time and then quickly reload. The audio guys add batteries and hi-amp alternators to cover the major power draws.

Actually it should work fine. As you said in your post a capacitor discharges and recharges rapidly. This is exactly what is happening to the electrical system when the headlights are dimming. The current system gets an instant low voltage surge when the AC compressor and fan kicks in (lights dim) then, the alternator kicks in more power (lights brighten back up). All of this happens in a split second and is exactly what a capacitor is used for. This is not a constant overload or draw on the Honda electrical system it is just a spike caused by a lag in response from the alternator circuitry and an electrical system which which has very little reserve power (small battery). The alternator is having to do all the work.

Mark II,

Unfortunately, the lights *stay* dimmer. If they just quickly dimmed and then immediately came back at full strength, maybe a big cap would help. But, not in this case.

-brendan

Mark II,

Unfortunately, the lights *stay* dimmer. If they just quickly dimmed and then immediately came back at full strength, maybe a big cap would help. But, not in this case.

-brendan

Well we don't have the same problem then. My lights briefly dim when the AC is turned on then the alternator kicks in, makes up the shortage and the lights go back to normal brightness. An alternator only puts amperage out as is required up to it's limit. If your lights remain dim you are overcoming the capacity of your electrical system.

Mine does it too, and it does it on almost all 4 cylinder cars/trucks I've owned. Hondas, Fords, Hyundais, Nissans...they've all done it. I just chalk it up as normal.

I've had plenty of friends with Hondas that had alternator woes, especially in Civics. It could be the alternator sucks and just can't handle the load.

I'm having the same issues...and it's very easy to see them dim, so it's annoying if anything. I've seen it do it with the AC, and the fan...but mine does it when I mess with the window switches...and it also happens to do it randomly as well. I've had it four months now and I seem to recall it only starting to happen a month ago. I drive the hell out of it though (14,000+ Miles) and this isn't my only issue.

Yesterday, we were in my E going downhill at about 55-60. Breaking, accelerating, breaking, accelerating, going around turns. The headlights seemed to keep dimming. It didn't matter if we were braking and nothing was kicking off and on, like heater/air condtioning. It was snowy and icy. Anyone run into this problem? Called the honda dealer and they said bring it in. I will be gettin this E in a month or so so I want to make sure everything is working properly.
L.

Well, all cars do this when the A/C kicks on, it is a sudden draw in power that the system compensates for after it gets the shock. That's why they dim and then go back to normal. If it didn't compensate then the lights would stay dim. Also, if you get rid of this piece of junk Battery that comes with the element then it gets a little better. Interstate makes Honda's Batteries. Go to Walmart they have better ones. Or I'm going to go for an optima.

And on the E, the AC may be on and you don't know it. (makes sense for hot and humid conditions, but not for below freezing) The AC comes on automatically with the defroster and the light stays out, unless you reprogram it, in which case the light comes on and then you can turn the aC off.

Good luck,

Instructions to make it possible to turn off the AC when defrost is on:

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10575&highlight=reprogram

Maybe a brain fart on my part but what is the REC button? I never knew that that could be turned off. In my current Civic it does the same thing. Can this be done with my Civic too?
thanks
L.

REC = recirculate i.e. interior air vs bringing in new air. It's a button like the AC button.

Like I said, it was a brain fart. Thanks for the help!!
L.

I'm having the "headlights dimming" problem as well...

From reading this thread, I think there is confusion as to what the problem is. The problem that I am having (and it looks like others are as well) is that there is electrical surging, both high and low, when the A/C isn't on. Its winter here... I'm not using the A/C right now and it does this when the defrost is off. In my sitiution this problem is occuring around 1000 RPM. When crawling in traffic, the headlights (along with other lights) are dimming and then surging. I understand that the cooling fan causes dimming, but this happens everytime the engine revs.

I stopped for gas the other day, and the guy that I was following on the road stopped and asked if there was any reason I was flashing my highs at him. This is NOT a normal electrical load issue. There is something wrong here.

Any ideas

I notice a large amount of dimming from rolling up or down my windows. Seriously, Ive wanted people to get out of the fast lane, and instead of using my highbeams, I have just pulled up on the window switch to get the headlights to dim, and then brighten when released... its really kinda 'weak'

I use an inline "cap" - 2 farad.

This is mostly for my stereo (and yes, the headlights dim while running the sub, even with a cap), but even when my sub ISN'T running, the AC condenser and other electrical items will still dim my headlights slightly. So a cap, even a large one, still wont get rid of the slight dimming in your lights. Every car I have ever owned has done this though, so I have always assumed it is normal. I've always just bought deeper cycle batteries, like optima or others, and I've never had any dimming problems after that.

Will a new battery solve your problems? I'm not really sure. But speaking stricly from a "dimming lights" standpoint, I have that problem in every car I own because of my stereo and a deep cycle battery has solved it 100% of the time. But I am drawing heavy continuous power loads so....like I said, I'm not sure if this will solve your problem. Good luck, though.

I never really noticed the dimming in my E. However I didnt drive my E very long till I put in a Car alarm, a new deck, a Phoenix Gold 8.0.4 amp, (two sets of MY Quarts comp systems) to run my fronts and rears, and a Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1 amp to run my 15" Cerwin Vega Stroker.

And now i get dimming lights ALLL The time. I have a Phoenix Gold 15 farad power core cap. Still dimming.....

My goal was to see about getting a better alternator....
Anyone have any ideas?

I'll probably be going with a Battery first tho.

Optima Yellow deep cycle.

However I didnt drive my E very long till I put in a Car alarm, a new deck, a Phoenix Gold 8.0.4 amp, (two sets of MY Quarts comp systems) to run my fronts and rears, and a Phoenix Gold Tantrum 1200.1 amp to run my 15" Cerwin Vega Stroker.

Did you move the Stroker from another vehicle, or did you buy it after you got your E? If you had it in another vehicle, how did it sound once you put it in your E?

I have been having a hell of a time trying to get my sub to sound close to half as good since I took it out of my other car. Something about the E's acoustics....

Hey all of you folks, I have a crusade going on about this very problem which I experience daily, on my Y -pkg '03. Happens when I take foot off the gas pedal at about 1800-2000 rpm, also using my power window switch does it. Sometimes the fan dies. No, I don't believe this is normal ,and is absolutely unacceptable. My local dealer does not support trying any solutions, but did read me their documentation on it, which says tell the customer it is the Electronic Load detector kicking in, which is saving them fuel. They also asked me to drive them around in broad daylight so they could experience the problem. Took it up the the distrct service mgr level and he said some people may experience this but it doesn't bother them! (as much as me, with impossibly high standards?) He should drive with me when I have others in the car, and am embarrassed by what my vehicle is doing and they are frowning.)

They say Honda designed this fuel saving measure into their cars since 1991. That means all Hondas should be experiencing this? And they do not, not even the vast majority do! I am polling people who drive E's or other Hondas and they do not have dimming lights, only we select few. (So we do not have a problem?) So far, from the dealer who joyously accepted my thousands, and their Cdn head office, I have an official response that they will do nothing because they do not recognize it as a problem, it is a 'design characteristic'. Sorry, I do not recognize this as the quality Honda usually delivers.

There is something wrong, and it is up to us to present it to them to be rectified. No vehicle I have ever driven has done this. I don't believe there is terrific fuel savings either because I'm am at the gas pumps a lot.

Signed,
It Ain't Over for Elly May

Has anyone with dimming problems checked the drive belt tension? A loose belt could mean the alternator pulley is slipping. 2yrs/30,000 miles is the recommended checking time. Some of '03s may be approaching this time.

Also is the dimming more common in the winter, with lower battery capacity, and the use of defrost? For example, first thing in the morning when it is still dark and the engine and car still cold?

paulj

I have experienced this dimming problem in all seasons and typically when I decrease acceleration, at about 1800-2000 rpm The cold weather right now (and it has been bitter) does not seem to lessen this defect.

I have a ridiculously high idle (at about 1100-1500 rpms) and the thing takes off like a jack rabbit when I first start up. I have to brake immediately as I reverse out of the driveway or leave a parking space; going way too fast! It's crazy, and likely contributes to the reason the gas mileage is so poor. Wonder if it also has something to do with dimming lights? Any thoughts?

I am still plugging away on this...any dealers out there listening? This is indeed a problem, please don't keep claiming it is a design characteristic within the ELD to save fuel.

Elly May

I have the same problem, when I stop I notice my headlight seam to get brighter once I let off the brake. When I told the guys at the dealership they asked me if I feed my hamster lately. Once I feed him the problem was still present, so they suggest I replace him. :roll:

On a serious note, my headlight do seam to get dimmer and brighten up once I let off the brake. It only happens on more sudden stops, If I slow down slower I don't see a difference. Yes I do realize the car dips when I stop and thats not the dimming problem I'm talking about.

I paid attention to my idle this morning. It started in 1100-1200 range, and stayed there for about 10 blocks. Only when the temperature gauge started to climb did the idle start to drop - reaching 600 when fully warm. This high starting idle helps the engine warm up faster, and thus run more efficiently and cleaner.

Despite this high idle, I don't have a problems with jackrabbit starts. Maybe that's because I usually start backing down a slight slope while turning - so I have to be ready to apply the brakes regardless of idle speed.

paulj

Hi
After reading through the posts on this article, it confirmed what I believed I was seeing.
I drove to the dealer, it is dark when I arrive. I notice the dimming and tried to explain to the service guy. First, he checked the battery and alternator with one of their devices. Everything normal. He then checked the bulbs themselves. One was fine, in that he could not pull the bulb out easily but the other bulb did not click into the connection. He replaced the bulb and we made an appointment to have one of the tech's look at it.
Now, on my way home, I am hopeful that the dimming has been resolved.
But, unfortunately, just a couple of blocks away, the dimming began.
When I had explained to the service rep, how long this had been going on, I recall it being only a couple of weeks. I thought, what else has changed? Then I noticed that the cruise control light on the dash was lit. I generally dont use cruise but was trying to keep the speed down to save $.
I thought, it has been only a couple of weeks since I set the cruise on.
I pushed the button to deactivate it.
The rest of the way home, no dimming. I have the appointment tomorrow and will discuss what I think is the problem and post it here.

I have experienced this dimming problem in all seasons and typically when I decrease acceleration, at about 1800-2000 rpm The cold weather right now (and it has been bitter) does not seem to lessen this defect. please don't keep claiming it is a design characteristic within the ELD to save fuel.

Elly May

Elly May, see my last post in the "Undersized Battery" thread. I've had both the battery and alternator replaced and the problem persists. Funny how this problem didn't happen when the car was new?

The honda tech is convinced that the D.E.L. has gone south. As soon as it's replaced, I'll let you know if there's any improvement.

Hey everyone---it's only been a few days since I joined this site and I HAVE A SOLUTION TO THE DIMMING HEADLIGHTS, at least for my E. Luckily, I got help from someone other than the dealer, someone interested in finding root cause. His theory was that it was a faulty ELD (Electronic Load Detector). Sure, maybe Honda designed it to save fuel but mine was not working properly, as I told the dealer frequently. The dimming was too noticeable and like the Hampster story another member recently wrote about. In my case, the dealer/C.S. office ignored it, but the person who helped me, did not. Here's what you have to do---it worked for me.

Insist that the dealer check the ELD. All they have to do is a simple test to hook it up for a reading. Then, encourage the dealer to replace the Relay Box in the engine compartment, even if they tell you, like mine did, that the ELD is working "as designed", to save fuel. Bull. Keep encouraging! Within that relay box is a little square box, which is the ELD. 2" x 2" by .5" high. Mine was registering a negative reading, like someone else who recently posted a message. This is wrong. It should be positive and will fluctuate depending on load. My ELD (2003 Element produced approx. March/03), was faulty because it was found to have a bad solder.

Now that the ELD component is replaced with a good one, the dimming headlights are a thing of the past for me. I am now looking for a solution to the frantically high idle (1500 rpm) and jack rabbit start. Stay tuned.

Please try this option and let me know. I am interested and hopeful that all of you find a remedy for this defect. Maybe your solution won't be exactly the same, but it is worth a try. You've got to try, because initially you may be told there is no problem, that's just how it is / you're being too picky. I found this attitude and response unacceptable. I was lucky, and am grateful, to have had an excellent resource who cared more than the people in the normal channels of customer service. To me, that has been the biggest rub of all.

Elly May

This is a great thread! I wonder if the E sets trouble codes in the ECU?
If so your friendly dealer could get an answer more quickly by looking at the diagnostic codes. (Maybe that costs a whole bunch or it's too hard...
I seem to get service people that call electricity "fire" and that is somewhat worrisome.)

In any event this site is interesting:

http://www.teirney.net/civic/ECUErrorCodes.htm#ObtainingCodes

It's the wrong Honda car but I'll still bet that if the ELD is bad is will set a trouble code in the E. Anybody know?

Your link lists a #20 code as 'ELD'. That is consistent with other lists of codes that I found since this problem was first mentioned.

I got help from someone other than the dealer, someone interested in finding root cause. His theory was that it was a faulty ELD (Electronic Load Detector)
Elly May

Thank you Paulj-I guess it would be handy to have a code reader.

Elly May-That's impressive trouble shooting. Was the troubleshooter a mechanic or maybe *grin* an engineer? (If it was an engineer I'll bet it wasn't a software engineer.http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif)

I like the instruction to "encourage" the dealer to do some work. How did you do that?

Sorry for the slow reply, Don. I've been mezmerized by the steady, bright lights since the ELD change and the end to that dimming headlight problem. To answer your question, I had the help from a kind engineer, who is involved in working with automobiles, not an actual mechanic at a shop, though I'm sure there are many mechanics out there who would have thought along the same vein.

By 'encourage' the dealer to try this route to fixing it, I mean do not take No for an answer, (not the 'yahoo' type of encouragement). Do not accept that it is 'just the way it works' as part of the fuel saving measure (as detailed in my previous threads). Perhaps using this information, you and others, might be able to get a quicker fix to the dimming headlight defect. Persevere for the good customer service that is supposed to be the standard, and good luck!

Elly May, nice to hear that your helper was a kind engineer. Most of us are kind, some are kind of weird but that's another story. In the interim I ordered the E service manual from H&A and have been mesmerized reading it. The ELD is based on a current probe and that explains a lot. Honda does a lot of clever stuff.

As for not taking No, my usual problem is that a service guy will try to BS me and my Scottish temper flares a wee bit and off we go. I'll try to chill a little. Perhaps a drop or two of single malt.

Hope you get your high idle fixed, please keep us posted.

My EX also dims even when you use the power windows let alone the AC!

Fixed my lights from dimming

http://www.partsexpress.com/images/263-144m.jpg

Fixed my lights from dimming

http://www.partsexpress.com/images/263-144m.jpg

Hey Lars,

What Yellowtop Optima is that? Did you have to remove the tray or any other mods to fit that battery?

Thx,
Phil

it's the 51r, requires no mods. Fits with factory insulator.

Well, I have not been on the site for a long time, but I am amazed at the amount of people that have had the same problem.

Thanks Elly May for a solution. I'm been driving my E for 2 years and everynight the dimming headlights drive me crazy! I am going to the dealership to get it fixed.

It's Me again...remember I had my dimming headlights problem fixed with a replaced Electronic Load Device (ELD?)? Some news...it's still working---no more dimming headlights. I now have it from a Reliable Source that Honda is acknowledging this problem, and will very shortly be issuing a Service Bulletin to dealers about it, with the ELD as root cause. If you are still experiencing this problem, keep pursuing it...the dealers are supposed to acknowledge & fix this!

Also, I hear there is a similar thing happening (Service Bulletin) for the Fast Idle problem.

Good luck!

ITS THE BATTERY!

I ALSO BOUGHT THE SAME BATTERY AS LARS IS DISPLAYING !!! i dont need to post pics :-D those BATTERYS ARE GREAT!!!


i also had same problem, i had dimming when i played my music loud. lol
I have alot of electronics in my e along with a subwoofer with amp.

and then started getting dimming headlights along with the dash lights were also dimming.

I bought those Milatary batterys, I forgot what they are called but they are really great with more power and longer lasting. You just pop it in and works right away.
they come in 3 colors.
yellow is best
red is better.
black as good.

any of these are way better then regular batterys. I get nomore dimming and I dont have to worry about getting jump start. :grin:

I bought the yellow one, it cost more then the other 2 but worth it.
I should take pics of it and find out what they are called. lol

I do a majority of my driving at night and for the last 2 days the E has now started having the dreaded light dimming problem. I have the radio, the lights on and that's it.

That being said, when I drive around town at night, the lights look like they lose power, like they loose 400 lumens and then on again. It's very distracting, very noticable and unacceptable. First few times, I was like "What was that?" as the road dimmed ahead of me. I'm going to bring the E in to have them check the ELD sensor thingy. I don't want to buy a 40lb battery right now.

***Update***

Dropping off at the dealership now, will post results tomorrow regarding this problem.......... :|

Hi
I ran across an interesting TSB on the NHTSA site.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/tsb/tsbsearch.cfm

Searching for anything Honda, I came across TSB 05-034, which had the following:

Summary Description:
HEADLIGHTS DIM OR DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODE P1298 IS STORED IN THE ECM/PCM.

SO, I called and talked to the service advisor at the dealer where I have been having the vehicle serviced. The key here was that I knew which TSB I wanted to discuss. One cause of this problem, according to the service advisor, was a bad solder on the ELD. I recall this being mentioned somewhere. Bottomline, it looks like Honda has recognized the issue.
Like others, in the past, I had been given the information that explained that this dimming is part of the fuel savings engineered into the vehicle.

Interesting enough, this TSB not only applies to the 03 and 04 Element but also the 03-05 Accord and 05 Odyssey.

I will update this post after I visit the dealer.

I know this is an old thread but it's been viewed a bunch. I just replaced my ELD after reading some of these threads and my dimming headlight problem is gone. Thanks to all involved in solving this. The part cost me $20 and took all of 12 minutes to put in!

How about a step by step for those of us with foggy memories. Just to update this thread, my dealership in Kirkland, WA basically has the attitude that if it isn't smoking it's not broke. I've lived with this annoyance for quite a while and would be interested as to what was involved!

Thanks!

How about a step by step for those of us with foggy memories. Just to update this thread, my dealership in Kirkland, WA basically has the attitude that if it isn't smoking it's not broke. I've lived with this annoyance for quite a while and would be interested as to what was involved!

Thanks!
PM me with your email address and I'll forward the TSB. It has all the directions on how to do the swap.

I believe that the ELD limits alternator output if there is a low or no load condition. When the ELD fails the voltage regulator evidently lets battery voltage vary quite a bit with engine speed. I'm guessing that the ELD's basic purpose is to help a little with fuel economy.

I run my ham radio (ICOM 746) directly from the battery and when I turn on the transmitter I do get a little variation in my headlight brightness since the ELD never sees the radio current load. The voltage regulator corrects itself and the battery still stays fully charged.
This is an amazingly complicated little car. I like it a bunch!

I run an Optima deep cycle battery, it seems to minimize the dimming but not eliminate it.

I run an Optima deep cycle battery, it seems to minimize the dimming but not eliminate it.

Reread the thread. You should not have dimming even with a stock battery. You may also need to replace the ELD.

I was in stop go traffic today and noticed that when I let off my gas (pedal, that is) the headlights would dim. I have an optima redtop so I know i have enough juice in the battery. i'm just hoping it's not the alternator. I just broke 75k miles so I'm sure it's something wrong thats now not covered. Has anyone else experienced this? If so what was the cause? TIA

I was in stop go traffic today and noticed that when I let off my gas (pedal, that is) the headlights would dim. I have an optima redtop so I know i have enough juice in the battery. i'm just hoping it's not the alternator. I just broke 75k miles so I'm sure it's something wrong thats now not covered. Has anyone else experienced this? If so what was the cause? TIA

Sorry to say it sounds like an alternator going bad. Take it in to be tested to be sure, better than having it poop out in the middle of nowhere.

damn thats what I was afraid of. Guess I'll start pricing alternators. Anyone changed one out of their E? I've changed them on other cars but not the E yet. Just wondering how hard it is.

Check the voltage at idle with all things off (lights,AC etc) you should be around 13 or more then hit the pedal up to 2K Rpm and you should have 13.8 or a little more. If you do then load it with lights and fan etc and see what happens. It will be normal to have a drop at idle but I don't think it should go below 12. You should have little or no drop at 2K. The brightness of your headlights will change between 12-14 volts. Another culprit could be dirty connections at the battery. You need to remove the battery cables to fully inspect the connection quality. Check the connection at the alternator too.

ET

Check the voltage at idle with all things off (lights,AC etc) you should be around 13 or more then hit the pedal up to 2K Rpm and you should have 13.8 or a little more. If you do then load it with lights and fan etc and see what happens. It will be normal to have a drop at idle but I don't think it should go below 12. You should have little or no drop at 2K. The brightness of your headlights will change between 12-14 volts. Another culprit could be dirty connections at the battery. You need to remove the battery cables to fully inspect the connection quality. Check the connection at the alternator too.

ET

Should the voltage be measure at the battery terminals or the alternator?

I was in stop go traffic today and noticed that when I let off my gas (pedal, that is) the headlights would dim. I have an optima redtop so I know i have enough juice in the battery. i'm just hoping it's not the alternator. I just broke 75k miles so I'm sure it's something wrong thats now not covered. Has anyone else experienced this? If so what was the cause? TIA

My E had the same symptoms as yours,so I replaced the E.L.D. (electronic load detector)and it totally fixed the problem.:cool:

Freakin sweet!!! I hope that is the problem. Coming from honda tech i feel pretty confident that the ELD is the problem. I wonder what the retail is on that part? There's a new Honda stealership near my house and i like to look at the purdy cars :) If it's stupid expensive for retail I'll be ordering from HandA.

I've had this problem for five years and now I find out it can be fixed with a $25 part. I need to devote even more time to "research" here! My wife will be thrilled.

Here's a link to the service bulletin that works. It has all the info on how to replace the ELD. Don't forget to unplug the battery. I think some of the terminals in the fuse box are always hot.

http://jphangingout.googlepages.com/ELDBULLITEN05034.PDF

I have had the dimming headlight problem for a couple of years. Is the ELD easy to get at & replace? Pictures anyone?

Thanks

I recently installed the Scangage II. It's neat that it displays all the hidden gages. I noticed the battery voltage with engine running drops down from 14.0 to 12.1 with no electrical load, if I turn on rear defog or head lites it will go back to 14.0. These voltages have been confirmed with a dvom at the power outlet. The E is bone-stock no aftermarket radio/amps/ alarms /remote non-starter.
Seems to me the voltage should be around 13.5 14.0 and only under load, while at idle with lights or cooling fan on, should it ever drop lower than 12.6.

I'm not having any starting problems, other than the small battery syndrome/slow crank But it's been like that since new. Battery checks good with Midtronics and the "eye" is green. Anyone with a Scangage, do you notice this?

Bump..... Anyone?

Just a guess but it sounds like a properly operating regulated charging system. If the demand is there, the output follows...

But I have no experience with the Element's charging system, so take that with a grain of salt.

Where is Hondatech when I need his advice?

Today's test involved an amp meter connected to battery post, when the volts drop to 12.2 the battery is discharging 10 to 15 amps. Is this normal?

As a gas saving measure the Element has a charging system that can actually disconnect or disable the alternator when the load is low enough. This may account for the lower voltages that you measure. Some owners reported battery problems that were traced to a bad charging control module, but that is not necessarily so in your case. A search on battery problems may turn up the proper name for this module.

As a gas saving measure the Element has a charging system that can actually disconnect or disable the alternator when the load is low enough. This may account for the lower voltages that you measure. Some owners reported battery problems that were traced to a bad charging control module, but that is not necessarily so in your case. A search on battery problems may turn up the proper name for this module.

True,it's actually called the ELD (electronic load detector)The ELD limits the alternators output at minimal load conditions.So what you notice is quite normal.I too have noticed my E's charging system acting exactly as you described your's.I have a Beltronics 995 radar detector which has an on board voltmeter,which I leave on,and while driving most of the time,my voltage will sit around 14.3 & 14.5 volts occasionally it will drop to 12.3 & 12.5 volts.Now at those times when I notice the lower voltage,I will turn on my A.C. on high,and I can clearly see the voltage jump back up to the 14.0 plus range,which shows that the ELD is working properly.:cool:

Thanks for clearing this up; now it makes perfect sense:rolleyes:

Thanks for clearing this up; now it makes perfect sense:rolleyes:

Your welcome.:)

Mine dimms do much its amazing! I will also look into the ELD. I can feal a slight drag WHILE the lights are dim, almost like its a manual, and the engine is slowing the vehical. I think now its the Alt acting like a motor with a load, and I feel that drag thru the serp belt. My terminals are clean, and my Alt voltage at 1500 rpm is 14.2v and the batt voltage, when car is off is 12.5v so those are normal. I did suspect the alt, or voltage regulator.

fixed it!!!! very ez. follow instructions and is not a problem. 30 mins max, but take your time. just two screwdrivers, and a zip tie and I was done!! 2003 element. part number 38255-S5A-003 $35



cheaper then an alternator and a battery!!!!!!!

THANKS SOOO MUCH!!!

does anybody knows if ELD applies to 2003 as well, and what is the retail for this part, I can't seems to find this on here http://www.hondapartscheap.com/southbay/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?hidSwitch=&hidIrno=&catcgry1=ELEMENT&catcgry2=2003&catcgry3=5DR+EX+ABS&catcgry4=LM&catcgry5=CONTROL+UNIT+%28ENGINE+ROOM%29&vinsrch=no&ListAll=&prdrefno=&act=&count=0&quantity=0.

does anybody knows if ELD applies to 2003 as well, and what is the retail for this part, I can't seems to find this on here http://www.hondapartscheap.com/southbay/jsp/prddisplay.jsp?hidSwitch=&hidIrno=&catcgry1=ELEMENT&catcgry2=2003&catcgry3=5DR+EX+ABS&catcgry4=LM&catcgry5=CONTROL+UNIT+%28ENGINE+ROOM%29&vinsrch=no&ListAll=&prdrefno=&act=&count=0&quantity=0.



The ELD TSP applies to all 2003's and some 2004's.


The part number is 38255-S5A-003.

thank you Lizzurd.

okay i did a search and 2006-2008 only ?

http://jphangingout.googlepages.com/...LITEN05034.PDF

instructions, did my 2003 EX yesterday. about $35 part.

http://jphangingout.googlepages.com/...LITEN05034.PDF

instructions, did my 2003 EX yesterday. about $35 part.

Page could not be found, thanks for trying though.

Try this link: http://search.stores.ebay.com/drvidguys-Electronic-Asset-Recovery_38255-S5A-003_W0QQfciZQ2d1QQfclZ3QQfsnZdrvidguysQ20Electroni cQ20AssetQ20RecoveryQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQsaselZ266223 21QQsatitleZ38255Q2dS5AQ2d003Q2eQQsofpZ0

It looks like this part fits several Honda's


Dom

http://jphangingout.googlepages.com/ELDBULLITEN05034.PDF
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=686561

I have a Scan Guage II installed on my "E". The voltage fluctuates between 11.9V and 14.1V no matter if I'm sitting still idling or driving down the freeway at 65 MPH. It doesn't seem to affect the battery from starting the vehicle but I would think the voltage output through the voltage regulator should be more constant at about 13.5 to 14.0 volts. Any ideas if this is a problem and should be fixed under warranty? "E" is six months old with 5500 Miles.

jsitar, meet ELD.

correct that would be the Electronic load detector

PN #38255-S5A-003 Around 35 bucks and there is a thread on the easy way to change it without pulling the fuse box. I just did mine a couple months ago and it works great now.:)

Thanks for the heads up on your thread. I found it after I had posted the question. It seems like a reasonable expanation of Honda's ability to get some more MPG. I tried your theory, and it worked. I was driving along on the road today at 40 MPH with the voltage showing 12.2. I turned on the A/C and the voltage jumped to 13.6. I did it twice with the same results each time. Thanks again for the detailed reply.

Hey, all! Hope someone may be able to chime in on this. I have an 2003 Element EX that has 65K on it. A while back I noticed that my lights seemed to be dimming when the compressor for the defroster went on, so last year when I was at the dealer they diagnosed the alternator as being an issue and replaced it. Now I notice that sometimes when I run my wipers, they run at a slower speed when turned on, and normal speed other times; when they run slower its like they are not getting enough electric power? I still notice my lights tend to dim when the compressor goes on as well or almost "flicker" at times?

Anyone have any idea what this could be, like is there a short in the electric system somewhere, and how can this be best diagnosed?:confused:

Welcome, Trccscott. Search term "voltage" returned this thread, to which your post has been appended. Also see this item (http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/files/service_news/troubleshooting/dim_lights_eld.pdf) (PDF) from Honda Service News.

Wow...the ELD is about $30 and 15 minutes to replace. Always start diagnosing problems here. The dealers are no where near as "in the know" as the EOC is. I did the ELD swap and my problems were fixed. My dealer had no clue as to the problem and said it was normal. Do the ELD then if it works ask for your old alternator back and your money.

my lights are dimming too. I have the service bulleten that notes the ELD problem for all 03 but the service manager at Norris Honda (with service bullten 05-034 in hand ) said that it is my fuse box keep in mind that my element is still on the parking lot and has never been in this dealers, even the good folks at hondapartscheap.com said that p/n 38255-s5a-003 is not listed for the 03 should I just get it and hope for the best so many of you have had alot of luck. It's not the 20 bucks I just don't want to cause any damage thanks for any help and wish me luck!!!!

my lights are dimming too. I have the service bulleten that notes the ELD problem for all 03 but the service manager at Norris Honda (with service bullten 05-034 in hand ) said that it is my fuse box keep in mind that my element is still on the parking lot and has never been in this dealers, even the good folks at hondapartscheap.com said that p/n 38255-s5a-003 is not listed for the 03 should I just get it and hope for the best so many of you have had alot of luck. It's not the 20 bucks I just don't want to cause any damage thanks for any help and wish me luck!!!!


This bulletin gives you all the needed info.

http://jphangingout.googlepages.com/ELDBULLITEN05034.PDF

Does it apply to your 2003? Yes it does.

Will the 38255-S5A-003 work on yours? Yes it will.

Cheap fix too is just throw a farad capacitor under your hood attached to your battery. There is ZERO dimming regardless of what the car is doing on my E.

a farad capacitor
Farad is a unit of measurement, hence a value is needed.

I was just going to say that. What would a capaciter do on the dimming issue and thats something I work with on my job but a LOT bigger. What MFD did you use? That would help on getting rid of any ripple from the alternator or for a surge. I changed my ELD about a year ago and its still working great and the dealor also had a problem finding the part number.

I use a .5 which is the same type you often find strapped to an amp and subs running on a stock alternator. It takes out all ripples in power between battery voltage and charging voltage along with instant current supply when the alternator is placed under load. Being installed next to the batter in other cars has aided in battery life and in my opinion better gas mileage as the ecu and sensors are not getting dips in current supply. For instance my 97 and 01 accords both had an interstate battery in each which was still good 8 years later when we sold both of them. I got he idea years ago when the first voltage stabilizers showed up from the japan racing scene. Problem I saw with them though was they had 4 1000uf caps in each box so they could only assist for a second at most :/.

Slimmerdogs, The caps will overcome the voltage drop caused by the inductance of the coil on the compressor, typically in power systems its referred to as power factor correction. If an inductor is close to unity(normally a percentage based from 100 down) or its voltage and amperage lag equally then you won't see too much dimming, but no inductor is perfect, some more then others so the lower the PF of a coil typically the larger the effect of the voltage drop when its first energized. The inductor and the capacitor in very simple terms cancel each other out, or close to it. In a resistance based voltage drop like a heater or light bulb the voltage and amperage are equal hence you can use ohms law.
The kids these days like to run 1 Farad Caps in their stereos nowadays, however I doubt most of them understand what its really doing and how much is needed. Just keep in mind that .1 F and larger are like having dynamite sticks under your hood. And they will kill someone if they are crossed the right way regardless if they blow up or not. I used to work with 320 micro farad caps which were 18 inches tall and about 6 inches wide, if they let loose it sounded like a shot gun, and the potential energy in those considerably less then the 1 Farad.

chris

Curious how farad capacitors would blow when the have a blowout plug on them? I have seen morons cross them before but it just turned the device into a split second arc welder accompanied by a capacitance gel mess. Sealed on the other hand I would agree with you on.

Slimmerdogs, The caps will overcome the voltage drop caused by the inductance of the coil on the compressor, typically in power systems its referred to as power factor correction. If an inductor is close to unity(normally a percentage based from 100 down) or its voltage and amperage lag equally then you won't see too much dimming, but no inductor is perfect, some more then others so the lower the PF of a coil typically the larger the effect of the voltage drop when its first energized. The inductor and the capacitor in very simple terms cancel each other out, or close to it. In a resistance based voltage drop like a heater or light bulb the voltage and amperage are equal hence you can use ohms law.
The kids these days like to run 1 Farad Caps in their stereos nowadays, however I doubt most of them understand what its really doing and how much is needed. Just keep in mind that .1 F and larger are like having dynamite sticks under your hood. And they will kill someone if they are crossed the right way regardless if they blow up or not. I used to work with 320 micro farad caps which were 18 inches tall and about 6 inches wide, if they let loose it sounded like a shot gun, and the potential energy in those considerably less then the 1 Farad.

chris

That much I do know and yes I have heard them go off like a bang. Sounds like a IGBT exploding. I have had one of those blow up in a Freq drive next to me and the guy sitting on this computer about sh.. his pants:) At work now. What I was getting at is a cap will not help the ELD but for a second. We use caps and reactors here about the size of a large suitcases for power factor correction and wouldnt want to hear one of those go. Got to do something when your electric bill is almost 2 Mil a month.:shock: I hate working shift work.:-x

So guys? I have an '08 and was also having a problem with the headlights. Turned out that I needed a new battery and afterward, the fluctuating voltages settled back down again but the ELD is a good thing to remember if it happens again now. Is the part and procedure the same for later years like the '08?

I would assume its the same but what happened with the older ELDs was when they changed over from lead based solder to non lead based solder they didn't use a little more heat to make the connections in the ELD and they failed. It also happened to my laptop and I install solar panels and we have had a lot fail because of that.

Curious how farad capacitors would blow when the have a blowout plug on them? I have seen morons cross them before but it just turned the device into a split second arc welder accompanied by a capacitance gel mess. Sealed on the other hand I would agree with you on.

Yes most all caps have a blow out plug, and normally they work. I used to work in a motor testing lab and we would blow them on a daily basis. In that case we used both dry and oil caps far less then the 1 farad level. The oil caps will blow although the dry caps are more spectacular. If the blow port is not big enough, clogged, or if the side blows out first, or someone arcs the side with 480 lead, etc. They are made for like a fuse and should fail first but have not always in my experience.

Ever seen one thats been in an car accident? Its quite cool they look sorta like a bugs bunny carton when the shotgun backfires. I saw one that actually implanted(aka arc flashed) copper from the attaching wires into the steel roof of a honda civic.

Chris

Once again, the EOC has the fix for my problem before I even inquire about it...thanks Gang and I'll let you know if it fixes my dimming issue.

The 2008 Accord I owned prior to my E had the same issue, except it was VERY noticeable and was a fairly common complaint among other Accord owners. It was severe enough that it almost looked like you were flashing your lights. By comparison, what I've notice with the E is minor.

old thread big bump!!

My headlights have been dimming between 1500-2000 RPM for awhile and even though it was annoying, I didn't see it as a huge issue, but I asked Honda to check into anyway. They said it was a loose positive battery cable and tightened it. That evening I noticed the dimming returned, but just decided to deal with it. I then learned of the ELD and put it on my list of things to do....eventually.

Fast forward to lastnight....I changed the ELD on my '03, cheap part, quick fix. :grin: Started up the E and let it get up to operating temp.
Gave the throttle a couple jabs so that the RPMs were above 2k, then let the engine drop back to idle. The first couple revs seemed promising as I didn't notice any dimming. Held the revs again at a sustained 2500-3k RPM then let it drop... no dimming.

I decided to be thorough and rev to the sweet spot of approx. 1700 RPM, then release the throttle. Whaddya know...the dimming is still there!! :cry: I repeated the test several times to no avail.

WHAT THE HELL??!! Any ideas? My only concern is that the computer might be retaining some kind of code... did everyone that replaced their ELD clear the computer? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

When you disconnect your battery your computer will clear on its own. Get a digital volt meter and check the battery voltage while revving it up and letting it go back to idle. There will usually be around a 1 volt drop while idling as the alternator does not put out current very good at idle.

well.. no more dimming... :?

I didn't change/touch anything since my last post and for some odd reason (midnight elves?) my dimming lights have gone the way of the dodo.

However... I can now hear a slight whine through my speakers in second gear... guess I gotta chase down a grounding issue now. :roll:

It could be a ground issue or a bad diode in the alternator. a good way to check that is use a multi meter and put it on AC and hook it up to the battery with the engine running and see if you show any voltage. It should be in the milivolt area and if more then that there is a diode shorted. There will a slight whine also if a diode is open meaning nothing goes through it.

the whine is intermittent, so who knows whats going on.. :?

hopefully I'll remember to grab a multi-meter when I go to Harbor Freight this weekend... I'm easily distracted in that store. :razz:

shopping list for harbor freight:
propane torch and multimeter..... ooh, can crusher... no!
propane torch, multimeter... ooh 3000lb floor jack... dammit!
propane torch, can crusher... OMG 20pk of solar lights for $9!!!!

... 20 min later ...
floor jack, solar lights, heat gun, bungie cords, model airplane, framing hammer!!! :lol:

I also have this problem, after talking with Honda they advised this is some kind of power saving function the car has.

I also have this problem, after talking with Honda they advised this is some kind of power saving function the car has.

That's BS. Why would the headlights dim to save energy? I'd rather use a little more energy and be safe.

I also have this problem, after talking with Honda they advised this is some kind of power saving function the car has.
if that were the case...then changing the ELD should have no effect and obviously it has!

I changed the EDL. EZ fix, 20mins, works great now!!

2003 EX AWD

Chuck
Anchorage Alaska

I just bought a $90 battery last month because of the headlights dimming symptom. Well, looks like I'm going to Honda in the morning!