Jacking for tire rotation [Archive] - Honda Element Owners Club Forum

: Jacking for tire rotation


Vaughn
12-18-2004, 11:24 AM
Using the search function I found the same question from Schutzhund and found no responses.

I have a floor jack and 4 jack stands, a 2004 Honda Element with 4 WD and automatic transmission. I want to find the proper method of lifting this vehicle with the equipment mentioned.

Vaughn

RainDriver
12-18-2004, 12:30 PM
Is this a trick question?

Park someplace flat, but it in P and set handbrake. Loosen lugnuts on one wheel, jack up and place 1st jackstand. Repeat. You could lift all 4, but rotation actually needs only one side at a time (you swamp back for front on same side of truck), which is safer. Tighten lugnuts after back on ground, so that when you put some oomph into it you don't push yourself off the jacks. Blocks on off-side wheels and a bit of plywood under the jack to save the driveway are nice extras.

Or at least that's how I do it.

BigTzElement
12-18-2004, 12:47 PM
I find it better to cross two tires in the rotation process. i.e. back driver goes to front passenger, front passenger goes to back passenger, back passenger goes to front driver and front driver goes to back driver.

Unless you have directional tires. Then the above is moot.

Vaughn
12-18-2004, 01:08 PM
No, this is not a trick question. If you want to follow the owners manual it calls for directional tire rotation in a front to back fashion which can be done by lifting one side of the vehicle. For non-directional tires it calls for fronts to go the rear without crossing sides then the fronts to go to the opposite sides in the front. This can be accomplished by using the spare but I would just rather raise the vehicle. This allows EASY rotation, oil change, and general inspection under the vehicle. If you use the normal jacking points for the floor jack where do you put the jack stands? In the front you have what appears to be frame work inboard of the normal jacking points, in the rear it gets more complicated. I don't want to make a big deal about this, but on my Miata, you can cause damage if you place a jack or jack stands improperly. I just wanted to know if we had someone with expertise in the matter.

Vaughn

paulj
12-18-2004, 01:14 PM
The problem may be how to lift more than one wheel off the ground at a time. There are 4 jack points on the body, one by each wheel. These are what you would use when changing a flat. However there isn't an obvious way of lifting one corner, and then replacing the jack with a stand so you can move on to another corner.

You could do a front to back rotation on one side, using the floor jack and the car's jack.

I have seen shops use a floor jack under the rear differential to lift both rear wheels. There may be a hard spot under the differential, but it is not documented in the owner's manual.

When I had my tires changed by a shop that uses floor jacks (as opposed to a llift), I pointed out the 4 jack points, and they used 4 jacks at one time.

paulj

RainDriver
12-18-2004, 02:09 PM
I think I see the gist of Vaughn's question - are there alternate jack or lift points? I too would love an authoritative reply, if anybody knows.

I just put the E's own jack on the recommended points to lift (also wanted to see how it works, in case of roadside need), then used common-sense to find a sturdy point for my jackstand. It wasn't rocket science, and all went according to plan...but I'd like to hear if anyone knows that I done wrong.

hownowcb
12-18-2004, 02:24 PM
Rotating tires on any other vehicle I've owned was a breeze compared to an Element. In fact, I don't recommend doing it yourself unless you have plenty of time or significant experience. It's the lack of sufficient support pads (besides the one-per-corner) that's the problem.

Even my floor jack proved insufficient, since it's a cheap small one, and without a two inch plank underneath the jack, it didn't even have enough stroke to lift a fully inflated tire off the ground. There's a fairly good point for a jack stand at the front axle, but the rear is nearly hopeless. Next time I do it myself, it's gonna be a pain, but the only safe way is to either use the spare tire or two jacks per side. I found a tiny second jack point at the rear, but also feel it was too unsafe to recommend anyone else doing it that way. While it works, using the Element's jack is a pain in the ass because you can't even make a full turn of the mechanism when raising or lowering. Everyone ought to practice using it in ideal conditions so it isn't such a challenge when you have to use it (which typically happens in less-than-ideal conditions).

I don't ever recall any tire or auto manufacturer recommending that radial tires be moved such that they change rotational direction (as in switching a tire from one side to the other). This factoid contributed to the widespread application of "temporary" spare tires since virtually every car comes with radial tires as standard equipment now.

BriBoy01
12-19-2004, 12:18 AM
I got bored one night and decided to rotate my tires. So I crawled under the E and looked at the jack points and decided the safest way was using the Es jack on its jack point in the corner and do one tire at a time using the spare. Not the fastest or easiest way but seemed the safest.

Honu
12-19-2004, 01:14 AM
I would also like a DEFINITIVE answer for where to apply the type of Big Ole Jack (which I still have from my 4WD truck days, and it has sufficient travel).

The type of jack that is meant to lift the ENTIRE END of a car off the ground, and then popping your heavy duty jack stands at each "normal" jacking point.

This allows lifting the ENTIRE car and being able to quickly rotate ALL tires REALLY fast. I have done this on various Hondas, Toyotas and Nissan (truck) for years...and it is often a challenge to find that one spot on each end of many cars.

My jack has a long handle, so I can shove it fairly deep under there. I am lazy and tired tonight, so I won't go diving under my Element, but I am pretty sure I found some marginally sufficient spots to crank the car up...relatively far under though.

Of course its only on that jack a brief moment before the jackstands are in place, and if I actually go UNDER ANY car in "full lift" state, (required to change the oil on a Honda Accord....a REAL nightmare) I will throw in an extra jackstand next to me as a safety and leave the jacks itself almost touching.

paulj
12-19-2004, 03:13 PM
There is a raised bit of reinforcing on the bottom of the rear subframe that sure looks like it would take floor jack. So both rear wheels could be lifted with this. There may be a similar piece of reinforcing on the front subframe, but it is harder to crawl under the car at that end to find it.

While the body mounting jacking points on the Element mean that the jack needs a long travel range, they are much more accessible than the lift points on some other cars. I recently helped change a tire on a Ford SUV. The jack point was a hook on the front control arm, well under the front of the car. The jack crank required two extension pieces.

paulj

ramblerdan
12-20-2004, 10:36 AM
FWIW, jacking the Odyssey is even worse. Just as short on good hardpoints as the E, the Oddy also is so low to the ground that it's almost impossible to get a floor jack under it. And of course it's much heavier, further limiting potential might-be-OK jack points.

I used the E's rear diff to raise the back end to install the rear mud guards. Jackstand placement was iffy but not impossible. Haven't raised the front yet; will report if good spots for jack and jackstands exist.

spdrcr5
12-20-2004, 11:33 AM
I have not tried to raise the E on a jack, but I would NEVER under any circumstances use the jack that comes with ANY car to change tires, except in an emergency situation where you have nothing else to use; flat tire out on the road. Those jacks are generally pieces of crap that are not meant to hold the car up for long periods of time and generally collapse under the weight of the car.

Have anyone thought to use the suspension(control arms) as a place to put the jack stands? Put a block of wood onto the floor jack lifting plate then use a frame rail, or something else under there.

I will have a look one day this week and see how to jack it up. If the weather isn't too cold I will put my E onto jackstands and post some pics for everyone.

paulj
12-20-2004, 01:37 PM
Have anyone thought to use the suspension(control arms) as a place to put the jack stands? Put a block of wood onto the floor jack lifting plate then use a frame rail, or something else under there..

Many other cars to have jacking points associated with the control arms. However, I'd want to be sure I understood the geometry of the suspension before using them. I'd want to be sure I was using a control arm that could actually take the force, not one that just limits some movement. For example in the rear, I believe the main arm is aligned front to back, with supplementary arms coming from the rear subframe.

paulj

ramblerdan
12-20-2004, 03:28 PM
Per Honda:

1. Set the parking brake when lifting the front of the vehicle; put the gearshift lever in reverse, or the automatic transmission in the "P" position when lifting the rear of the vehicle.

2. Block the wheels that are not being lifted.

3. Position the floor jack under the front jacking bracket (A) or rear jacking bracket (B), center the jacking bracket in the jack lift platform (C), and jack up the vehicle high enough to fit the safety stands under it.

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/images/jack_points02.gif

I've also used the frame under the rear differential.

paulj
12-20-2004, 04:03 PM
There is even an arrow pointing to front point A!

The rear subframe has a similar looking hard point (under the rear differential), but if the base of the tow loop B is strong enough, that is certainly more accessible. This also raises my estimation of the strength of the rear tow loop when used for pulling the car out of a mud hole.

I'm going to keep a copy of this image in the car, for reference if I need service in some out of the way place.

paulj

NoRegrets78
12-20-2004, 05:06 PM
I haven't had the chance to see the underside of my baby yet. Any pics floating around? I wonder if the front subframe will suffice as my previous had an arrow exactly where to put the jack but nothing in the manual about it.

seb
12-20-2004, 06:07 PM
I had the front up this weekend for an oil change, used a floor jack under the right-front jack point (behind the front wheel), and a stand under the sub-frame just aft of the tow-loop-wire-thing on the passenger side front. (Driver side front tire still on the ground) It was nice and stable, and really made the oil change a comparative breeze.

Honu
12-21-2004, 01:18 AM
Thanks ramblerdan! That is exactly what I was looking for!
And now that I see it, that is exactly where I did place the roller jack, thank gawd, and its pretty much the same locations I used on our Accord after one almost disastrous "no not there, ouch!" somewhere else in the back on the Accord.

Once you get the entire end up, you can place the HEAVY DUTY jackstands on the normal side "jacking points" on the car to hold it up, first one end then the other.

I do always break loose all the lug nuts before jacking it up and final tighten after dropping down, just to keep from bouncing the car around on stands. I also keep an extra jackstand handy or spare tire for where I slide under, while leaving the roller jack under there but not fully supporting the car. I have a LOT of respect for avoiding dropping a ton on my chest, and tend to be a VERY cautious guy.

Silver_Bullet
07-23-2005, 07:16 AM
I'm glad to see there are factory approved lift points at the center of each end of the car. With the "windshield issue" on the Element, I'm not keen to lift the car at just one corner for fear of putting a slight twisting stress on the windshield frame and causing a stress crack.

paulj
07-23-2005, 01:12 PM
Any link between flexing of the car or the windshield frame and windshield cracking is purely a matter of owner speculation. The 03 TSB addressed a specific problem of localized roughness in the frame. That is a very different type of stress. Rock hits are also a very different cause.

I have driven more than my share of rough roads. I have also rotated my tires (once) by lifting each corner in turn. None of this has produced cracks in my windshield. I do have a crack, but that was caused by a rock hit, and extended by thermal stresses (washing a hot sunlit windshield).

paulj

Silver_Bullet
07-23-2005, 05:56 PM
I'm betting you are correct about stressing the windshield, but no harm in being a bit paranoid, ya know? :roll:

I used the center-of-car jacking points earlier today and did a fairly painless tire rotation -- worked like a charm :)

Huney
12-11-2005, 09:24 AM
"I used the center-of-car jacking points earlier today and did a fairly painless tire rotation -- worked like a charm."

With those small tires it should be a piece of cake. Didn't look in the manual yet but someone said rotate front to back, no X'ing, but that's not the usual prescribed rotation for front wheel drive vehicles. Front Wheel Drive Vehicles - Rotate your tires using the forward cross pattern. Front wheels go straight back, left rear to right front, right rear to left front. We swapped the OEM Good Years for Toyo tires and get frree rotation every 5K mi for life of the tires. :)

Genom
12-11-2005, 10:35 AM
I think all of the above mentioned recommendtaions for jacking stink...the best jacking point is the fuel tank cage...everyone knows that.:twisted:

(No, this is not a picture of mine...I threw away my tank guard)

Honu
12-11-2005, 02:11 PM
"I used the center-of-car jacking points earlier today and did a fairly painless tire rotation -- worked like a charm."

With those small tires it should be a piece of cake. Didn't look in the manual yet but someone said rotate front to back, no X'ing, but that's not the usual prescribed rotation for front wheel drive vehicles. Front Wheel Drive Vehicles - Rotate your tires using the forward cross pattern. Front wheels go straight back, left rear to right front, right rear to left front. We swapped the OEM Good Years for Toyo tires and get frree rotation every 5K mi for life of the tires. :)

I used to do an X pattern. But that presents a bit of a problem with unidirectional tread patterns. That is the one thing I don't like about the unidirectional patterns is that you can ONLY rotate front to back(and back again). Of course it does make jacking the car easier.....

Dom.five
12-11-2005, 05:12 PM
I Belive the tire makers. Some say don't x the tires. Others say it's ok. If you use Toyo, they say no, do not x them. Also Goodyear wants them to stay on the same side, No Xing. If Your tire brand and type allows it, You will get beter mileage from it. I have been told many times with the raceing tires not to change the direction of rotation once Run. The same holds true for Street tires for lots of brands. If I were you I would find out What they recomend before you start.

As for the jacking points. If you have a tow hitch, that can be used safely on eather side. As well as the hard points, Shown in the other posts.

paulj
12-11-2005, 06:21 PM
The big difference in tire wear patterns is between front and rear(drive and not wheels), not between right and left (assuming things are properly aligned). So the X pattern does not help much compared to the simple front to back.

If you are getting more wear on the inside (or outside) edges of the tires, the X pattern isn't going to help; since the inside remains on the inside. You would have to remount the tires to deal with this problem.

Actually there may be tendency for the Element to wear the inside edge of the rear tires, and the outside edge of the front ones. The simple front to back rotation addresses that.

If the tire has a directional tread pattern, the X pattern is out unless you remount the tires.

paulj

Ranger
12-19-2005, 07:37 PM
I Belive the tire makers. Some say don't x the tires. Others say it's ok. If you use Toyo, they say no, do not x them. Also Goodyear wants them to stay on the same side, No Xing. If Your tire brand and type allows it, You will get beter mileage from it. I have been told many times with the raceing tires not to change the direction of rotation once Run. The same holds true for Street tires for lots of brands. If I were you I would find out What they recomend before you start.

The Toyo and Goodyear websites don't say that.

From the Toyo website:
"The purpose of regularly rotating tires is to achieve more uniform wear for all tires on a vehicle. Before rotating your tires, always refer to your individual owner's manual for rotation recommendations. If no rotation period or pattern is specified, you should consider rotating your tires, front to back, every 6000 miles or at least every 7500 miles. Irregular wear may require more frequent rotation.

Popular Rotation Patterns
Sometimes tires cannot be rotated according to popular patterns. Such tires include uni-directional tires with asymmetric tread designs. Also, some vehicles may have different sized tires mounted on the front and rear axles, and these different sized tires may also have rotation restrictions. Check your owner's manual or visit your Toyo tire dealer for recommendations for these special cases. "
Here are the popular patterns they show...
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8392/fwd2sb.gifhttp://img190.imageshack.us/img190/4489/4x42tl.gifhttp://img190.imageshack.us/img190/2673/all16tv.gifhttp://img431.imageshack.us/img431/5453/all23hy.gif

From the Goodyear website...
"Tire Rotation
While many people are capable of rotating their own tires, it is quick and easy to let a professional do it for you. Your vehicle's owner's manual will specify the proper rotation pattern and schedule for your vehicle. If there is no specific schedule specified a good rule of thumb is to rotate your tires every 6,000 to 8,000 miles."

Both specifically recommend going with the owner's manual instructions unless the tires are a different size or are directional.
Here's a link to both sites...

Toyo tire rotation instructions (http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_basics/rotation.html)
Goodyear tire rotation instructions (http://www.goodyeartires.com/kyt/maintaningATire/)

loufrankel
04-04-2006, 04:05 PM
Could someone post a picture or diagram on where the center jacking points are? I want to use jack stands at the wheel points but can't swap the jack with the stands in a safe way. I saw a mention of points A, B, and C, but there was no visual associated with it.

paulj
04-04-2006, 04:21 PM
For the front point, look at the black plastic right behind the bumper. You will see a moulded arrow pointing to a bump on the metal subframe right behind it. That is the front center jack point.

The rear center jack point is that big tow loop at the back.

Tire techs have also used the center of the subframe below the rear differential to lift my Element. It appears to be every bit as strong as the tow loop.

paulj

elementrybikehauler
12-14-2006, 10:37 PM
Honda's recommended jacking points (http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/jack_points.htm#floor)
.


Like they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
Mucho Thanks.:) :) :) :)

Dragon's Breath
12-19-2006, 02:29 PM
Of course you rotate front to back, back to front. Simply put your floor jack, with a small piece of wood, just forward of where the two doors come together along the frame rail. (Roughly center between the two wheels, but slightly forward toward the front wheel for balance, as the front is heavier than the rear.) If you have side steps, use the center support bracket as your jacking point. If no side steps, jack point is outboard of the the mounting holes, along the frame rail. I've been jacking cars at this location for many years such as Miatas, Rav4s, Siennas, Rangers, Ram 1500s, even classic VWs. Anywhere along the frame rail is safe to jack, just use a piece of wood for protection.

ApriliaGuy
12-19-2006, 08:24 PM
Of course you rotate front to back, back to front... .

Unless of course you rotate in some sort of X pattern (like I prefer.)

Like:
LeftFront to RightRear.
RF to LR
RR to RF
LR to LF

or some such similar pattern... where it is really nice to have both sides (or at least opposite corners) of the vehicle off the ground at the same time.

Will

TBeazy
08-02-2012, 05:57 PM
Thank-you.

Per Honda:

1. Set the parking brake when lifting the front of the vehicle; put the gearshift lever in reverse, or the automatic transmission in the "P" position when lifting the rear of the vehicle.

2. Block the wheels that are not being lifted.

3. Position the floor jack under the front jacking bracket (A) or rear jacking bracket (B), center the jacking bracket in the jack lift platform (C), and jack up the vehicle high enough to fit the safety stands under it.


I've also used the frame under the rear differential.