They work, what's to hate? I drove a 1978 VW 'LuvBug' around a few weeks ago. It had some crapy brakes and no power steering. I don't see how people perfer 4-disk brakes to ABS.

I love my ABS. I've had lots of cars without it, and it's no fun to lock 'em up when your're trying to avoid hitting something. I think alot of people don't like them because they think it "takes away" from their ability to brake.

Old timers think they can do better. They think they can modulate the pressure faster than say...100 times a second.

I was in a Jeep Wrangler the other day...wow...scary in ice covered Alaska.

Here's a serious answer: because ABS doesn't work in all circumstances - especially on unpaved or loose surfaces - and the behavior is difficult to anticipate, and non-intuitive. So it's a little prophetic that this question is posed in the "off roading" section.

Specific example #1: brake hard on a gravel road at low speed (<30 mph). Without ABS, wheels lock and gravel piles-up ahead of the wheels, adding to stopping power. With ABS, the wheels unlock and roll over the gravel, nearly doubling the stopping distance.

Specific example #2: brake semi-hard on paved surface with small patch of loose surface, or uneven surface causing wheel to bounce. ABS will sense loss of traction and pulse entire system, not relinquishing control until fully stopped... again extending stopping distance.

Insurance industry statistical evidence is somewhat damning of ABS. Their analysis shows that while ABS has reduced collision occurance resulting from loss of control due to skidding, it has equally increased collision occurance due to extension of stopping distances. So for that $500 more that it tacked on to the MSRP (not to mention maintenance/repair costs), ABS traded one accident type for another, and resulted in essentially zero net gain.

>...1978 VW 'LuvBug'... . It had some crap[p]y brakes

That proves nothing relative to ABS. VW Beetles had horrible brakes, period. One of their more endearing qualities. :grin:

Even at 34 I am a way old school motorhead...I just don't like ABS brakes, automatic transmissions and power steering. I generally drive for the experience of it...I can't be a part of the experience if a tranny is shifting for me and never in the gear I want, mushy power steering ( BTW, the Element has the least assisted power steering of any vehicle I've driven and I actually like the road feel of it ) and those damn ABS brakes which do little more than extend stopping distances ( thank you Mike for that intuitive analysis of ABS brakes ). All that crap if good for the average yenta checking her makeup while talking on a cell phone and drinking a StarSucks coffee at 45 MPH in the left lane.

Mike makes a good point with the repair/maintenance issue with ABS. When buying my E, the palsy at the dealer was trying like hell to get me to buy the extended warranty, and one item he mentioned was the cost of the ABS brake system parts. I asked him, "What are you yammering about? The LX model I'm buying doesn't have ABS." He shut his mouth real quick.

In closing, I think items like ABS that are touted as safety improvements are actually watering down peoples' driving skill...

[QUOTE=Genom]Mike makes a good point with the repair/maintenance issue with ABS. When buying my E, the palsy at the dealer was trying like hell to get me to buy the extended warranty, and one item he mentioned was the cost of the ABS brake system parts. I asked him, "What are you yammering about? The LX model I'm buying doesn't have ABS." He shut his mouth real quick.[QUOTE]

On a similar note, I brought in my DX to the dealer for its 30,000 mile service. The service advisor mentions that at 30,000 miles, its recommended to replace the A/C filter. I said, I don't need an A/C filter since I don't have A/C! hehe One pro in not having one, LESS maintenance! LESS cost in the long run!

Same goes with ABS, I've read a post here or two about an owner having brake problems related to ABS. No worries here! All I have to worry about are the basic stuff: pads, rotors, calipers, etc. AND no damn ABS electronics to screw things up!

FWIW, a case in point about ABS servicing... in one of the rare instances where I shopped out work (major front end stuff on a 4x4 truck with high mileage), the mechanic came back to me with "You know, I can't assure you that I'll be able to re-use the ABS sensors. The mounts are pretty corroded and it'll be a miracle if I get 'em off without breaking." Thank you, road salt.

Fortunately he persevered and was able to recover them. Good thing... my price on the sensors was $250... each!!! Youch! :shock:

During this most recent winter, I've had 2 instances where I'm glad I had ABS brakes. One was in my E and the other was in my mom's Pilot. During both occurances, I was going in to a turn way too fast and only got halfway through the turn when the vehicle started to skid (in particular, my E started skidding towards a guard rail to a small ditch . . . not cool). In both instances, I was totally calm and applied my brake pedal, keeping it down, so the ABS would pulse, and straightened the wheels until the tires regained some traction. The vehicle skidded for another instant, then the tires gripped, then I steered through the rest of the turn. No panicking, no worries . . . I just let the ABS do its job.

I think marketing has done a bad job with ABS, because as far as my observations, it's not meant to really stop you sooner, but to allow you to steer clear of the thing you're about to hit. In my mind, ABS is like the airbag . . . it's a safety device you have to use properly for it to work. When I was first learning to drive, I would pump the brake and use a more manual method, but nowadays I've learned to use the ABS. And as for costs, I rationalize that maintenance costs will be offset by the fact I'm saving money by avoiding accidents.

True, ABS isn't perfect for all instances and people out there still have accidents. All I can say is, for my experiences, I'm glad I have ABS on my E.

Here's a serious answer: because ABS doesn't work in all circumstances - especially on unpaved or loose surfaces - and the behavior is difficult to anticipate, and non-intuitive. So it's a little prophetic that this question is posed in the "off roading" section.

Specific example #1: brake hard on a gravel road at low speed (<30 mph). Without ABS, wheels lock and gravel piles-up ahead of the wheels, adding to stopping power. With ABS, the wheels unlock and roll over the gravel, nearly doubling the stopping distance.

Specific example #2: brake semi-hard on paved surface with small patch of loose surface, or uneven surface causing wheel to bounce. ABS will sense loss of traction and pulse entire system, not relinquishing control until fully stopped... again extending stopping distance.

Insurance industry statistical evidence is somewhat damning of ABS. Their analysis shows that while ABS has reduced collision occurance resulting from loss of control due to skidding, it has equally increased collision occurance due to extension of stopping distances. So for that $500 more that it tacked on to the MSRP (not to mention maintenance/repair costs), ABS traded one accident type for another, and resulted in essentially zero net gain.

>...1978 VW 'LuvBug'... . It had some crap[p]y brakes

That proves nothing relative to ABS. VW Beetles had horrible brakes, period. One of their more endearing qualities. :grin:


Damn you and your big brain! The Off-Roading board seemed like the best place to ask this, sorry if it was bad choice.

Specific example #1: brake hard on a gravel road at low speed (<30 mph). Without ABS, wheels lock and gravel piles-up ahead of the wheels, adding to stopping power. With ABS, the wheels unlock and roll over the gravel, nearly doubling the stopping distance.

Specific example #2: brake semi-hard on paved surface with small patch of loose surface, or uneven surface causing wheel to bounce. ABS will sense loss of traction and pulse entire system, not relinquishing control until fully stopped... again extending stopping distance.

While that might be the case. For 75 % of people who drive their car on paved roads or generally "well conditioned" roads, I believe ABS brakes is a benefitial safety factor. I know it has saved my butt a couple times from rear ending a car in a "close call".

People hate ABS, because you can't lock'em up and do pretty skid marks !

Actually you can quite easily lock up ABS brakes. I have done it on every car I have ever driven if the mood struck me.

Other than the situations that Mike pointed out I have had other issues with ABS over the years. Anyone here ever drive a car that had a button that can turn off ABS so you can actually compare it on/off? I have... HUGE difference and a major improvement in the amount of control you regain when the ABS has been disabled.

I don't know how the roads are around other parts of the country where everyone else drives, but around here the roads are not glass smooth. They have bumps, dips, pot holes, roller-coaster pavement, etc. Try to use the brakes in a normal situation while going over these types of roads and you WILL lock anywhere from 1-4 wheels. Happens all the time. Not just to me, but I see it happening to other peoples car just observing it happening. All kinds of cars too, and they all have ABS. Not saying it doesn't/can't happen to a non-ABS equipped car, but it is far less.

I thought ABS would be great for the average driver, it is supposed to be a safety feature. But as Mike pointed out it has just shifted the types of accidents from one type to another.

The misconception with ABS has been echoed here which I guess we shouldn't find surprising. ABS is not something that will allow you to stop any shorter than conventionally equipped brakes. All ABS will do is allow you to steering with your foot planted on the brake pedal around an obstacle. Personally I don't/won't ever do this... I have learned over the years that this is counter-intuitive and does not work as well as braking hard in a straight line, making your maneuver then using the brakes or accellerator again if needed. I have found using ABS in a turn to be very upsetting to a car, especially a FWD car. It makes the car push/understeer more in the turn.

If you like ABS that's great, if you don't that's great too. To each his/her own. Just remember there is nothing that a good lesson in vehicle handling can't help you with. Go out and learn the limits of your car in a safe area. See what it is like to brake hard in a straight line, in a turn, try braking in a straight line then turning... see which is right for you. Nothing like tossing a car around and enjoying it in a safe place.

My personal opinion is that while ABS might sometimes be a negative, it's [b]ALMOST[]/b] always a positive for the vast majority of people. I've only had the ABS kick in for me one time, down hill on a wet paved road where turning/swerving was not an option and I believe it worked better than I could have (you simply can't pump the brakes that fast).

It's like seatbelts and airbags. Sure, you can bring up a lot of cases where they haven't been beneficial - even killed people who might otherwise have lived if they weren't wearing them. But those are annecdotal stories - by and large they save a lot more lives.

My personal opinion is that while ABS might sometimes be a negative, it's [b]ALMOST[]/b] always a positive for the vast majority of people. I've only had the ABS kick in for me one time, down hill on a wet paved road where turning/swerving was not an option and I believe it worked better than I could have (you simply can't pump the brakes that fast).

It's like seatbelts and airbags. Sure, you can bring up a lot of cases where they haven't been beneficial - even killed people who might otherwise have lived if they weren't wearing them. But those are annecdotal stories - by and large they save a lot more lives.

You still can't be quite as dismissive about ABS. Here's a link to a Q&A about ABS published by the HDLI/IIHS:

http://www.hwysafety.org/safety%5Ffacts/qanda/antilock.htm

That is the official information from the data analysis body of the auto insurance industry. A quote from this page, as a teaser: "Although car antilocks perform well on the test track, there's no evidence they have made significant reductions in the number of on-the-road crashes."

Thanks for the link, it's an interesting read. This part, in the same section as your quote, caught my attention:
Leonard Evans, a researcher with General Motors, reported that antilock-equipped cars were less likely to rear-end other vehicles but more likely to have other vehicles rear-end them. Again, the net result was little effect on overall crash risk.
Yeah, but then the accident wasn't my fault, which is a significant thing... moreover, it merely implies that if EVERYONE had ABS, accidents would be reduced.

There's also what's been mentioned here before - people tailgate... they tailgate BADLY. Why? They feel secure... they drive SUVs, they have airbags, ABS, crumple zones...

Moreover, statements like this have me scratching my head:

The federal studies of effects of antilocks on passenger vehicle crashes found positive effects on wet roads and negative effects for run-off-road crashes. These two opposite results cancel each other.

Excuse me? Are they saying there are as many "off road" accidents as there are "wet road" accidents? I find that really hard to believe. I believe the section in italics may have merit, but I believe the conclusion that the results cancel each other out cannot be logically drawn from the premise.

If you like ABS that's great, if you don't that's great too. To each his/her own. Just remember there is nothing that a good lesson in vehicle handling can't help you with. Go out and learn the limits of your car in a safe area. See what it is like to brake hard in a straight line, in a turn, try braking in a straight line then turning... see which is right for you. Nothing like tossing a car around and enjoying it in a safe place.

Larry's statement is right on. We deal with public safety types many of whom are trained on a course near Lansing, MI. They learn about their cars on a safe, usually wet skid pad. (They also learn a fast reverse slalom that is something to see.) The senior officers don't particularly like ABS but all agree that the ability to steer while skidding is a good feature. I don't particularly like ABS since it tries to second guess what I'm trying to do and what the car is up to.

No matter what, knowing the handling and braking characteristics of your car is a great education and, done safely, it's fun to learn.

ABS is a must, should be standard feature on all vehicles, just like airbags.

DGI, years ago I was heavily into auto-x'ing and one of the clubs I belonged to was asked to teach different organizations how to drive/handle a car. Some of the people I auto-x'd with and later road raced with were Police. I got to participate and later teach at a few different Police Courses. A friend of mine teaches a course down in Texas that he opened up to public but through an invitation.

I agree with you and ABS. There are far too many situations where it just gets in the way. It means more for resale to me than a safety feature when I am driving. When someone else is driving my E I am glad it is there. :)

You can't compare seatbelts to ABS. Two totally different safety devices. I have never gotten into a car without wearing a seatbelt. I know for a fact my life has been saved many, many times over because of seatbelts. On the other hand I also know that because of ABS I have come close to wrecking a car multiple times, but I was able to avoid it inspite of ABS trying to do things it had bo business attempting. Don't even get me started on EBD(electronic brake distribution) or whatever you want to call it. To me it is dangerous in so many situations that you encounter in an every day situation. I will leave that for another thread. :)

"Although car antilocks perform well on the test track, there's no evidence they have made significant reductions in the number of on-the-road crashes."

That just goes to show you...
No matter what is done to try and make cars safer, easier to drive, or idiot proof.
The mass of dip****s roaming aimlessly on the highways of this great land will find a way to run into something.
:-P

I love it when people say, "ABS isn't for people who can't drive, why just last night in the rain I was going too fast on a dark and bumpy road into a sharp turn and almost crashed, but I just eased onto the brakes and go 'ol trusty ABS saved my butt."
:roll:

I love it when people say, "ABS isn't for people who can't drive, why just last night in the rain I was going too fast on a dark and bumpy road into a sharp turn and almost crashed, but I just eased onto the brakes and go 'ol trusty ABS saved my butt."
:roll:

Michael, that is exactly one of my beefs about ABS and all of these other electronic "helping" doodads. Why does someone need to get over their head and expect that the car will help them out? The driver should be in control relying on their own knowledge and skill to keep them safe. Sure it is great that there is technology out there to assist you, but it shouldn't be doing the work for you.

it's sort of funny no matter how hard the companies cater to the lowest common denominator, people keep finding ways to above and beyond. what ever happened to proper driver training? instead of leaning on these electronic crutches and keep lowering the driver standards, spend the extra money on proper driving techniques. i get tired of hearing people complain about how the car did not save them from getting in the accident, when it is the idiot who put themselvs in that situation from the get-go. whatever happened to being accountable for your own actions. it's not the cars responsibilty to get you out of trouble. if it hurts them physically or financially enough times, i think people will start to wise-up! :lol: learnto use abs to you advantage, not simply rely on them!

Michael, that is exactly one of my beefs about ABS and all of these other electronic "helping" doodads. Why does someone need to get over their head and expect that the car will help them out? The driver should be in control relying on their own knowledge and skill to keep them safe. Sure it is great that there is technology out there to assist you, but it shouldn't be doing the work for you.

It's true, but I have a defense... it was the only time ABS has ever kicked in, and it was in a parking lot (or a driveway that led to the parking lot) with a road so steep it would never be allowed on a public road, and the roads were just wet (as opposed to be rained on and washed off, it was the most dangerous time when all the oils and particles rise to the surface). The company has even since gotten rid of that driveway.

But I think you're complaint is without merit... a lot of good drivers get in accidents; that's why they're called "accidents" and not "stupidents" or "incompedents" (although the latter two are probably more appropriate the vast majority of the time). Somebody cuts you off or burns a red light or stop sign and you hit the brakes... there's a point beyond which even the best drivers wouldn't be able to stop where ABS might have been able to. Under some conditions there's no way even the best drivers could avoid an accident that ABS could avoid.

1. Air bags save lives
2. Air bags kill
3. ABS prevents accidents
4. ABS causes accidents (if nothing else, by conferring a false sense of security that encourages people to drive too fast for conditions).

We can't even get people to read their owner's manuals, so forget about the average Joe getting severe-weather driver training. Until the population gets smarter (i.e., never), we will have to live with safety devices that sometimes help and sometimes don't.

You know what it is...
Man has been screwing with natural selection for too long.
Dumbing down the herd too much.
We spend too much time catering to 'short commings' when we should be addressing them.

I say if your can't drive without electronic assistance you should be made to walk.

Too many accidents you say; it's the bus for you.

Dare I say it, felony DUI with fatality; never drive again and get stoned by the family who's kin you off'ed.

Stupid, well then you get to quit irritating everyone who works at your normal job and go be a mop tard at the whackin booth of your local "F Street" book store specializing in video rentals, rubber wangers, and Benwa balls.
:evil:

I have been driving a 1991 nissan 240 sx for the past 10 years, it has no antilock brakes and I find that a car is much easier to control when you can feel the actions of the wheels through the pedals rather than a strange pulsing sensation from them. I have found that several people have released the brake pedal in fear when they feel the abs kick on. unless you are spending $50k+ on a car chances are the technology in it is not as sofisticated as a well trained driver. If you are new to driving I suggest enrolling in a performance driving course and learn how to handle your vehicle.

Kudo's to RamblerDan and Ranger!!! People need to realize that a vehicle is like a computer.....it will only do what is put into them! 99% of the time , it is "Operator Error"!!!!!

This is the result of ABS in a snow covered parking lot. One wheel slipped on an exceptionally slippery spot, causing all 4 wheels to "pulse". The other 3 would have had plenty to traction to stop. Felt as though I wasn't pressing the brake at all and coasted into a security pillar outside of a store. Good thing it was my work truck and not my E!!!!

Dam stop signs. Anyone that doesn’t have enough since to know when to stop without them doesn’t kneed to be driving. " Sorry, I just couldn't resist.
98% of my driving now is on paved roads. ABS had always served me well on ice, snow and rain. I do agree that for off road it is not as good. And in a way ABS is like seat belts. Some people have been killed as a result of having a seat belt on. But, the percentage of lives saved by them is many times greater than those taken by them acording to highway patrol stats.

Real off-roaders (sorry, not E territory) hate ABS because it messes things up. Here's the typical situation.

You're in you Jeep (probably CJ-5 with 2" lift and 31" tires) carefully walking down a steep mountain mining road. The trail is rough with lots of tire sized holes. While coming down the trail, you frequently pick one tire up off the ground (even a Jeep has limited suspension travel). At that point, your ABS detects the locked up wheel in the air and begins pulsing. The rest of the wheels, firmly on the ground, quit braking and you suddenly speed out of control down the mountain. Weeee!

When jeeping I've often had a tire 10" or more in the air just because of rough terrain and limited suspension travel.

For real off-roading, ABS is terrible. For real off-roading, the Element is terrible. For real off-roading, virtually very new 4x4 vehicle on the market is terrible. Sorry, that's the reality of what it's like "out there".

- Keith -

'79 IH Scout II (3" lift, 31" tires)
'71 Ford Bronco ( 3" lift, 31" tires, NP435 4-speed)
'68 CJ-5 (2" lift, 31" tires)
'43 CJ-2A
'88 Toyota 4x4 truck (30" tires)
'90 Isuzu Trooper II (31" tires)
'91 Jeep Wrangler
'94 Jeep Cherokee
'98 Dodge Ram 1500

On steep roads you have to depend on the brakes more in an Element than in a conventional 4x4 because you don't have that low range. I've driven a number of roads that are steep and rough enough that even in 1st (automatic) I have to pump the brakes. Actually it's not a pump as in a panic stop on ice (non-ABS) but a press and release to avoid over heating the brakes. I don't know how ABS would behave on such roads.

The Land Rover Freelander has a brake-based system that lets you crawl down hills as though you had low-range.

paulj

This thread and comments completely baffle me.

The first comment... ABS over 4 wheels disc? Uh what? My E is 4 wheel disc and has ABS.

I understand the offroader not particularly liking ABS for that, and I can see where it would misbehave, but for the rest of you... I don't think most people get it.

ABS isn't supposed to help you unless you are emergency brake to avoid an accident. At that time, the ABS pulsates so your wheels don't lock up, which theoretically allows you to steer around the accident (instead of sliding into it). The big problem lies in the fact that A) Some people think they can pump better than the computer or B) drivers that don't understand with ABS you "smash and mash" the pedal... so hit it, hit it hard and don't let up until you are stopped.

In the best case scenario, you'll never even know you have ABS for the life of the car. Kind of like an airbag.

Back when I learned to drive (a long, long time ago) we were taught how to use the hand brake. It isn't there just for parking on a hill.

It operates the rear brakes by a cable and is independent of any hydraulic or electronic system. I have used the hand brake while driving 20 miles home in a car which had lost its brakes due to a leaky wheel cylinder.

If I had ABS brakes (my E does not have them) and was driving in snow or other conditions which weren't ABS friendly I would have my right hand on the hand brake, just in case. Sometimes being able to lock the rear wheels is better than not being able to lock any of them.

...but a press and release to avoid over heating the brakes.

I haven't heard of that in years...I have a friend who believes in doing that and all it really does is let the vehicle speed up and now you have to press the brakes even harder to slow down. Besides that, how much cooling is happening to a disk shaped slab of cast iron between pedal releases? Even the brake pads and caliper can't cool off that quick.

I've driven trucks off and on over the years and that was the first thing they teach you when getting a CDL, just apply light even pressure and you won't overheat the brakes and cause fade.

I'v had some success with the Element on hills since mine is a five speed and I can engine brake within reason. Good thing too, I live in a hilly town.

One last general comment for the entire thread: ABS sucks on anything but dry pavement, plain and simple...glad I don't have it. Another "safety feature" shoved down the American consumers' throats at the hands of overactive crybabies and lawyers.

I thought it was wrong to 'ride the brakes'. I wouldn't mind reading more about the best prolonged brake use, especially with modern disk brakes in mind.

Regarding brake use, the worse that I've driven was High Bar Rd in British Columbia, with a 3500 ft drop in 3 miles. The sign at the top warns of 23% grade, not not the steepest I've driven, but the longest. It was ok gravel, but I kept my speed in the 10 mph range. Even with a rest stop at a switchback part way down, I was smellling something hot near the bottom - it could have been baking dust.

Later on that trip I witnessed a brake fire - in a pickup with slidein. This was at the bottom of a 4000 ft, 15 mile drop. I don't know what his braking approach was.

paulj

I had the same experience on that road Paul (as you know, I was a few weeks behind you last summer). The brakes on our Suzuki Sidekick overheated on this road (as well as on the Hill coming down into the Bella Coola Valley) despite pumping the brakes and using low gear.

The smell of burning pads was quite strong for a number of minutes until they cooled down.

Steep hills can certainly be scary as is evidenced by the last two posts. For a number of years I made an annual trip to Jim Thorpe PA to do some mountain biking, and there was a long, steep road to travel down to get into the center of town and catch the shuttle into the mountains. IIRC, there was a gravel "bail out" to the right side just before the hill and it was inclined, so if you're brakes were shot or fading to begin with, you can duck out here and live to tell the story. I used to go in the Fall season and this hill would be covered in wet leaves...I'm glad my crummy Isuzu Pickup was a five speed and had no ABS brakes...I may have been taking the "Express" lane down that hill if I had ABS because I'm sure that system would go berserk with all four wheels locking and unlocking as each rolled over a wet leaf. I would keep my road speed down and keep steady, even pressure on the brakes mainly to keep the engine braking in check and came out of it just fine every year I went without barbecuing my brakes. Yes, there was some fade as I reached the bottom, but by that time I was on level ground nearing the town center and you're not moving over 30MPH anyway.

The years my friend drove, he did the "brake and release" method on the same hill...and all it did was let the car speed up, then I'd see him standing on the brakes getting the car back down to the speed we started at. This cycle continued all the way down and his brakes were so hot that they barely worked at the bottom...scary.

Sorry to make you read so much:oops: and also for getting off track here.:oops:


Considering the bad experiences I've had with ABS over the years ( on company work vehicles ) I think they are only worthwhile on dry pavement.

I inclination to go with the brake and release method may have roots in bicycle riding. There is easier to get a feel for the right balance. Without some sort of heat sensor on the wheels it is harder to tell what braking strategy is best on a car. I've assumed that brake and release would give the brakes some chance of cooling. On the other hand, saw tooth speed pattern might actually generate more kinetic energy (due to the velocity squared term).

Depending on the road's steepness and roughness there may not be much choice. You just have to brake enough to keep speeds safe. Experience so far has given me quite a bit of confidence in the Element's brakes. I've described elsewhere my drive down Long Canyon near Moab. Previously in a pickup I was quite happy to have low range on that road; for some reason the decent in the Element did not seem nearly so steep.

paulj