06 Toyota FJ Cruiser: What the E should've been [Archive] - Honda Element Owners Club Forum

: 06 Toyota FJ Cruiser: What the E should've been


dbpaddler
03-31-2005, 08:47 PM
I've been an E owner for a year now and love my E despite my frustration with the versatility and limitations of the rear seats. I spoke more about it in the interior forum. Yes I wish it had more power. I wish it was more rugged looking...blah blah blah. Now I see the FJ Cruiser going from concept to production and I say, "this is what the E should've been." More rugged looks, same concept as the E, more power, more practical rear seating(and seating for 5), wider stance, traction control, stability control, ebd, and just more of what I'm sure many of us would want in an SUV. Pricing starts at $20k so it's inline with the E. I'm sure the gas mileage mongers will scoff at the six with 245hp, but I'm skirting the 20mpg mark already so no biggie here. I'm surprised I haven't seen it talked about on here yet as it's been around on the net for a bit. Here's some pics and a description. Let's see what everyone thinks.
http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/toyota_motor/toyota-concepts/toyota-FJ-cruiser-05/toyota-fj-cruiser-01-800.jpg
http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/toyota_motor/toyota-concepts/toyota-FJ-cruiser-05/toyota-fj-cruiser-02-800.jpg
http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/toyota_motor/toyota-concepts/toyota-FJ-cruiser-05/toyota-fj-cruiser-03-800.jpg
http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/toyota_motor/toyota-concepts/toyota-FJ-cruiser-05/toyota-fj-cruiser-04-800.jpg
http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/toyota_motor/toyota-concepts/toyota-FJ-cruiser-05/toyota-fj-cruiser-05-800.jpg
http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/toyota_motor/toyota-concepts/toyota-FJ-cruiser-05/toyota-fj-cruiser-06-800.jpg
http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/toyota_motor/toyota-concepts/toyota-FJ-cruiser-05/toyota-fj-cruiser-07-800.jpg
The FJ Cruiser takes on an authentic functional form, yet adopts several styling cues from the original FJ 40. Some of these cues are notable on the front end by its wide grille with "Toyota" logo badging, round headlights, and offset combination lamps. Additional inspiration can be found through its upright windshield and white cap roof. Traits are also noticeable in the rear with wrapping rear corner windows. The modern shape of the FJ Cruiser is woven into a compact package set on a wide track, producing enhanced stability and a powerful stance.

Utility features include a two-part rear hatch with flip-up glass, black overfenders with mudguards, and silver painted bumper extenders, mirrors, door handles and skid plate. Easy rear passenger entry into the two-door SUV is achieved with rear access doors.

Power is supplied by a 4.0-liter V6 engine, generating 245 horsepower and 282 lb-ft. of torque. The engine is paired with a five-speed automatic transmission on both 4x2 and 4x4 configurations and an available six-speed manual on 4x4 models.

The five-passenger FJ Cruiser rides on a modified 4Runner platform and features 17-inch steel wheels and four-wheel disc brakes. Just like all of the SUV’s in Toyota's line-up, the FJ Cruiser will be equipped with the Star Safety System which includes Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) and traction control (TRAC), an anti-lock brake system (ABS) with electronic brake-force distribution (EBD) and brake assist as standard. All 4x2 models will come with a standard automatic limited slip differential (ALSD).

The tough and straightforward theme of the FJ Cruiser is extended to the interior with a cabin designed specifically for basic functionality and flexible utility. The instrument panel features an exterior color trim, adding to its sophisticated, handcrafted appearance. The faceplate with round inset instrumentation communicates a mechanical appearance. The steering wheel and center-mounted shifter, and attached-look door panels feature tool-like simplicity. The rear seats fold flat, creating ample cargo space and maximum usability.

The interior will be equipped with an array of standard convenience features including air conditioning, AM/FM CD audio with six speakers, tilt steering wheel, four cupholders, passenger seat back pocket, and an upper dash-mounted map/glove box.

Additional optional equipment includes 17-inch aluminum alloy wheels, rear differential lock, electronic four-wheel traction control (on 4WD models only), running boards, rear sonar backup assist, front seat-mounted side airbags and front- and rear-side curtain airbags, daytime running lights, power outside mirror with image lights, cruise control, AM/FM CD audio with a six-disc changer, equalizer and eight speakers, leather-wrapped steering wheel with audio controls, multi-information display, exterior color door insert panels, privacy glass, and rear wiper.



Review 1 (http://www.autointell.com/asian_companies/toyota_motor/toyota-concepts/toyota-FJ-cruiser-05/toyota-FJ-cruiser-05.htm)

Review 2 (http://trucks.about.com/od/suvreviews/ss/07_fj_cruiser.htm)

IRV
03-31-2005, 08:53 PM
I feel like an a**. On your other post, I agreed with you on the limitaions of the E. Now a bunch of quotes from flacks on on car that hasn't even hit the road?
PLEASE!

At least your trade in value on the E should be good.

hiker chick
03-31-2005, 08:59 PM
Love my E but I'll be looking at the FJ when it comes out. A friend is already planning on the FJ to replace his Pathfinder -- unless the FJ falls far short of reports and expectations.

dbpaddler
03-31-2005, 09:12 PM
It's wrong to be impressed by what you see at the auto show and all the preview reviews roaming around the net? People constantly drool over things yet to come. In this case concept meets reality. And my issues on the seats are separate from this. I'm not saying this will definitely be my next vehicle, but as soon as I hit 50-60k on my on E, I'll be shopping for an SUV with a more practical rear seating area.

And you can't tell me the FJ doesn't catch your eye and make you wonder how it will compare to the E.

I feel like an a**. On your other post, I agreed with you on the limitaions of the E. Now a bunch of quotes from flacks on on car that hasn't even hit the road?
PLEASE!

sweet-e
03-31-2005, 09:34 PM
I'll admit... I like it, but if you can afford the gas....more power to ya :roll:

dbpaddler
03-31-2005, 09:37 PM
i'm getting between 18-20mpg now. The V6 should be better highway for me than the E is, so I don't see how gas is going to suffer. I bet I'd be able to comfortably go more than 300 miles before I have to refill. Can't do that with the E now.

X2E
03-31-2005, 10:08 PM
Heres my take

Limited rear side view
Limited rear view
Spare mounted on truck has never been a plus in my books
3 wipers? what for?
Wind noise from roof visor
Those tires = road noise
I drive in the city, the rugged would only be for looks

I'm still going to the dealership when it comes out though.

paulj
03-31-2005, 10:20 PM
When the preproduction model was introduced at a recent auto show, the interior was still under development.

In the last thread about this FJ, there was quite a bit of disagreement as to what the price would be, whether it would be anything approximating the Element's, or be closer to the 4Runner that it is based on.

paulj

dbpaddler
03-31-2005, 10:23 PM
I think the three wipers are to cover the extra width. I know MB had one that would go up, over and down instead of just back and forth though I doubt that would be put on the FJ. Not sure if those will be the stock tires when all is said and done. I actually like the rear mounted spare. One, it's full size, and two it doesn't take up any interior room whatsoever. I think the wind visor and beefy rack will be optional. Of course they show everything when showing off. I'd put the rugged to more use, but nothing wrong with having the looks.

I'm actually curious to see if this site is filled with fanboys like the ipod lounge is. Doesn't seem that way as of yet though. I'm waiting to see pics of the interior and interior dimensions. That will be the selling points for me. My buddy got me into the E over the CRV and he sells Toyota too. He's always been concerned with how much I like my E since he convinced me to get it. I'm hoping he'll do right by me if I decide to go in the FJ's direction.

dbpaddler
03-31-2005, 10:28 PM
If what the VP says is true, then it's geared closer to the Element. From what I've read in most articles, and what my friends at the dealer say is that it's geared towards the Element in price. Still early so nothing is carved in stone though. Here's the quote:

"The FJ Cruiser effectively fills a gap in the Toyota lineup which was once our core heritage - capable, affordable and durable vehicles that are youthful, fun-to-drive, aggressive and tough," said Don Esmond, senior vice president and general manager, Toyota Division. "The FJ Cruiser will deliver true off-road ruggedness, image and performance at a very low price, making it highly accessible for a large volume of young buyers."

In the last thread about this FJ, there was quite a bit of disagreement as to what the price would be, whether it would be anything approximating the Element's, or be closer to the 4Runner that it is based on.

paulj

TrailNut
03-31-2005, 10:34 PM
1. can two adults sleep inside, fully stretched out, on a flat surface (Element can)

2. will it offer 4wd Lo gearing option? (lower set of gearing for crawling with lots of torque, high rev, slow speeds. many 4wd do not have this)

3. any selectable locking differentials on its axles ("lockers" they called, some like Wrangler Rubican or Dodge PowerWagon has it in both axles...zee best)

i'm willing to pay $25,000 to $30,000 for such a suv

Empire
03-31-2005, 10:40 PM
I'm surprised I haven't seen it talked about on here yet as it's been around on the net for a bit.

Yeah we talked about it last february when Toyota "unveiled" it.

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12290&page=1&pp=10&highlight=fj+cruiser

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12160&highlight=fj+cruiser

And also almost 2 years ago.

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3930&highlight=fj+cruiser

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2812&highlight=fj+cruiser

paulj
03-31-2005, 10:42 PM
Can the adults sleep on the floor or on the reclined seats? Even little 1st gen RAV4 can sleep 2 on reclined seats.

dbpaddler
03-31-2005, 10:47 PM
sorry about the previous topics. I did a search on Toyota, Toyota FJ, FJ Cruiser, Cruiser...and nothing came up. sorry. as for the 1-3 questions....

1. Interior specs haven't been published as of yet. From what I saw at the show, I would think so. Time will tell. From the looks I'd think a full size air mattress would fit.

2. Would assume so since it features the basics from all it's other 4wd vehicles, and I don't think it's considering the RAV one of them.

3. Yes, it will be an option. Here's the info on it's 4wd prowess....
Just like all of the SUV’s in Toyota's line-up, the FJ Cruiser will be equipped with the Star Safety System which includes Vehicle Stability Control (VSC) and traction control (TRAC), an anti-lock brake system (ABS) with electronic brake-force distribution (EBD) and brake assist as standard. All 4x2 models will come with a standard automatic limited slip differential (ALSD).
Additional optional equipment includes 17-inch aluminum alloy wheels, rear differential lock, electronic four-wheel traction control (on 4WD models only)

1. can two adults sleep inside, fully stretched out
2. will it offer 4wd Lo gearing?
3. any selectable locking differentials on its axles

cjmclean
03-31-2005, 11:30 PM
It's a very cool concept. How much of it will make it to production, we'll see. I can't see the useless 3 wiper system making it. As for the price, only time will tell... I see a pretty well equipped one being around 25K, in my opinion.

Being as the RAV4 starts somewhere around 18K (guessing here, but had looked around), I can't see the FJ Cruiser starting near the same price. It just doesn't make any sense.

dbpaddler
03-31-2005, 11:36 PM
well they promise low pricing starting around 20k. We shall see. The model they unveiled and what's in the pics is not the concept one they showed a bit ago, but pretty much the production model. I can't imagine how much will really change. Many of the specs seem to be set. I'm sure many are waiting to see the formal introduction with full specs and pricing.

Sheniferous
03-31-2005, 11:52 PM
lol... and element enthusiast site not filled with fanboys? riiiiight.

Since i'm in the original "target demographic" of the element... i would get an FJ if i could get a fully loaded one (i.e. EX4WD or Toyota's version of such) for about 24K after tax, title and delivery. In truth though I believe the FJ will run for MSRP $21,799 (base model) - $25,799 (loaded)... plus another $3k for an optional TRD Supercharger.

And yes I'm pulling these numbers out of my ass based on nothing so before anyone gets on me about the supposed numbers, there goes your explaination.

dbpaddler
03-31-2005, 11:57 PM
even if your numbers are correct or close. I'd pay $25k for more off road capabilities, bigger engine, better towing capacity, seating for 5, more rugged looks, full size spare, and better driveability. Can't say anything about the interior dimensions yet though. And I'm thinking a base just under $21k with fully loaded for just under $25k.

and I think anyone that drives an E has to be somewhat of a fanboy to take the wierd looks and comments people make.

Genom
04-01-2005, 12:07 AM
I'm planning on taking a close look at the FJ Cruiser when it comes out. Looking back at some of the earlier concept photos, you can see its being refined towards production with the rear view mirror lights being smaller and the front bumper winch missing, among other features.

For those who don't get the three wipers, this is done since the windshield is short and wide...two long wipers won't clear the windshield properly without leaving alot of untouched area. (it was mentioned earlier in this thread about MG having three wipers, same reason; a short, wide windshield.)

Sheniferous
04-01-2005, 12:23 AM
even if your numbers are correct or close. I'd pay $25k for more off road capabilities, bigger engine, better towing capacity, seating for 5, more rugged looks, full size spare, and better driveability. Can't say anything about the interior dimensions yet though. And I'm thinking a base just under $21k with fully loaded for just under $25k.

and I think anyone that drives an E has to be somewhat of a fanboy to take the wierd looks and comments people make.

Prior to the E i've never owned or driven an SUV sooo.... I don't need off road capabilities as the off roading I ever did was the sand dunes at Pismo and that was because I owned an E. I would like a bigger engine... I have been driving a Lexus LS400 for the past few days and the thing just punches through when I mash the gas! I drove the E today to Ikea and nearly forgot it was a 4banger when I punched the gas to pass a slow moving truck and the thing didn't really go as fast as I wanted it to. But that's only because I had been driving the V8 for a few days. But with the way I drive I had to fill up the Lex with preimium gas after 3 days of driving, which was more about $50 worth of gas. At the same time, driving the E the same way to the same places, I usually fill up once every 4 days for about $30... that means a $275 dollar difference every month. I'm averaging about 21mpg on an EX4WD Auto in mixed "semi-agressive" driving. So if the FJ were to get about 17mpg with mixed driving (based on specs from the V6 4Runner), it would mean I would be able to drive about 5 days before filling up based on a 20 gallon fuel tank (speculative), burning at least 3.5 gallons a day on my commute. Now every 5 days I would have to fill up the tank (regular gas @ $2.50/gal), which comes out to around $50 every 5 days, equaling $300 dollars a month. So with my 21mpg figure for the E, it comes to burning about 2.8 gallons a day on my 60 mile commute, with a 15.9 gallon tank I'd have to fill up for about $40 every 5.6 days which comes out to $212 dollars a month. So for a V6 I'd be spending approximately $88 dollars more per month for the same commute. Not too bad actually. I thought these calculations were going to go the opposite way but $88 more a month isn't too shabby for added power. hmm. Well point is that I've never towed anything so I don't really "need" extra power, but then again I don't "need" to drink either, but I do anyway. I have no idea where this post is going... it kinda started one way but now I'm just confused.

dbpaddler
04-01-2005, 12:50 AM
I still own an Audi A6 so I hear you on that punch. The luxury also gets me too, and I turn it in this month so I have even more remorse going on. I'd the the 6 cylinder would be a bit lighter on the gas on the highway and a little more thirsty in the city. So depending on the mix, I can't see that great a difference in my overall mileage. Still, with your speculative calculations, $88 doesn't seem bad a month. I don't think I'd see an increase, and the extended cruising range between fillups would be a plus. I think for me, I already felt like I was giving up luxury in the E. The more I drive it, I feel like I've given up some convenience as well. On top I feel like I've given up some ruggedness even if it's just in the looks department. Maybe that's why the FJ looks so appealing. Then again, I put my CJ5 through it's paces back in the day, and I had loads of fun with the HMMV (a real hummer) back in the service so.... I do remember threads where people complained about things the E lacked and how this seems to address many of the issues, hence my title to this thread. I think if the FJ lives up to it's heritage, Toyota will have a real winner on it's hands.

wankerklink
04-01-2005, 12:51 AM
Rav4 MSRP price range,$19315--$21765
4Runner MSRP price range, $28360--$38360
So if Toyota wanted to fill the niche with the FJCruiser what follows is this:
FJCruiser MSRP price range, $23837--$30062

Just a thought!

DJEMBE
04-01-2005, 01:32 AM
I'm pretty pleased with my 25-day-old 2005 EX AT AWD in green. Actually, I'd very much like to drive it down to Ecuador and park it near the beach at Guayaquil and take a boat out to the Galapagos to see if the color is right. I would alert you here if it's incorrect.

The Toyota concept car is pretty, but the Element I bought has such sweet enhancements and it is in it's third year of existence.
I understand Toyota makes cars of integrity just like Honda but I'm pretty pleased with my Element. Actually, I love it to pieces.

dbpaddler
04-01-2005, 02:07 AM
think you're missing the point with how they are talking about it. I don't think they're trying to fill a niche in their product line. I think they're trying to fill a market niche they once had with the original fj's. Think you'd be a bit on the high side.
"The FJ Cruiser will deliver true off-road ruggedness, image and performance at a very low price, making it highly accessible for a large volume of young buyers," said Don Esmond, senior vice president and general manager, Toyota Division.


Rav4 MSRP price range,$19315--$21765
4Runner MSRP price range, $28360--$38360
So if Toyota wanted to fill the niche with the FJCruiser what follows is this:
FJCruiser MSRP price range, $23837--$30062

Just a thought!

paulj
04-01-2005, 02:21 AM
'very low price' and 'young buyers' would suggest a price in the mid teens, along with the Scion cars. For many young buyers, even the Element is too expensive without daddy's help. Given the list of mechanical features it is hard to imagine Toyota selling it at the lower prices being floated.

wankerklink
04-01-2005, 07:22 AM
'very low price' and 'young buyers' would suggest a price in the mid teens, along with the Scion cars. For many young buyers, even the Element is too expensive without daddy's help. Given the list of mechanical features it is hard to imagine Toyota selling it at the lower prices being floated.

I agee. I also don't know how they are going to fit 5 people in there{children and 150lb. people excluded}. I own an 03 GMC Sierra crewcab and wouldn't want to ride in the back seat with 2 other 200+lbers. for more than 4 or 5 hrs.

cjmclean
04-01-2005, 09:35 AM
"Low price" is relative anyways... The average purchase price of a car is around 25K (if I remember correctly) .... so "low price" compared to the "average price" doesn't mean anything if you are wanting to stick around 20k for a new car.

nhE
04-01-2005, 11:05 AM
yeah, I started one of the earlier threads on this, because when I first saw it in Febuary, I got very excited. I love my E, but as you said, I would like more power and more ground clearance, and the FJ also has skid plates. Everything else about it is like the E, suicide doors, washable interior, back seats are going to be designed to fold flat, and interesting looks. A lot of people claimed that this is not in competition with the E, but I think it will pull some E buyers away, not all, but some. And almost everyone is convinced that this will cost btw. $25,000 and $30,000, but there is no evidence of that. In the press release for this, they say "at a very low price" Very low is a strong statement and a base price of $25,000 would not reflect this statement and would turn most people off, at that price you can get an Explorer or a Highlander, which I think we can all agree are bigger vehicles and are not marketed as affordable vehicles. So based on this and the fact that the FJ is a direct competitor, whether you believe it or not, of the Element, Jeep Wrangler and Liberty, and Xterra, this is going to base right at $20,000 and well equipped for $25,000. I guarentee it, and if it turns out I am wrong, I will buy everyone who reads this a next generation Element. :)

PS - I do love my E :)

paulj
04-01-2005, 11:52 AM
Seating 5 isn't a problem, even the RAV4 does that. The Japanese Element does that. The US Element does not - but that is because the rear seats are designed to give lots of room, as well as having the cup holders between the riders.

Anyone care to speculate on the cargo area of the 06 FJ, particularly with rear seats in place?

paulj

dbpaddler
04-01-2005, 11:54 AM
they've hinted at a starting price around 20k. And the FJ is a fairly wide vehicle so seating for five is 2 up front and 3 in the back. I don't think they base their stats on putting 3 200lb people in the back. Nobody does. And everyone around here bitches about the stupid cup holders in the back and how the Japanese market got real seats to put a 3rd person in the back, so why would you even bring up that complaint on this?

It's funny because I've been around here for awhile, and I've seen a bunch of threads about making their E more tough and aggressive looking. Bigger tires and wheels, brush guards, skid plates and so on. People want it more off-roadable. Also see complaints about how there isn't enough power, and I wish I could tow more. Toyota looks like they are filling the need. For some the E is fine the way it is. For others, their needs will hopefully be met.

booggerg
04-01-2005, 12:01 PM
So this could potentially be out this fall as an 06' model?? Hmm didn't think I would be getting rid of my E that quickly..

dbpaddler
04-01-2005, 12:25 PM
I've read later this year as an 06, and I've read early next year as an 07.

As far as interior dimensions, I'd have to say they are inline with the E. The FJ is 8.3" longer so I'd say that there would be more cargo room with the seats up, maybe around 33-35 cubic feet. The FJ is only a half an inch taller and with the fold flat seating I'd think the internal height might be a little less than the E, but you also have the full width of the FJ without taking the seats out. The FJ is 3" wider than the E as well so I think the FJ will have a bigger footprint for storage on the inside while having a little less height for stacking. Just my opinion based off the specs.

paulj
04-01-2005, 01:50 PM
I wonder whether the individuals who are so excited about the FJ Cruiser seriously looked at the 4Runner. If so, why did they choose the Element instead? Price, fuel economy, highway handling, looks, spartan interior? When I look at the specs for the FJ, I see a 2 door 4Runner, a few inches shorter in wheel base, and foot less in overall length.

Anyways I'm sure the FJ will draw customers away from a variety of vehicles, including some Element owners who still dream of going off road (or at least want to look the part).

paulj

booggerg
04-01-2005, 02:26 PM
The 4 runner looks like nice family hauling SUV.. The FJ is reminiscence of the old/pure days of the Land Cruiser... Styling here is a major factor for me. Oh yeah, and that price too. Of course, my dream car is a reliable Land Rover Defender 110... but that won't happen...

hardguy
04-01-2005, 02:33 PM
even if your numbers are correct or close. I'd pay $25k for more off road capabilities, bigger engine, better towing capacity, seating for 5, more rugged looks, full size spare, and better driveability. Can't say anything about the interior dimensions yet though. And I'm thinking a base just under $21k with fully loaded for just under $25k.


I say keep dreaming. You can't even get a fully loaded RAV4 for under $25K. The MSRP for a fully loaded RAV4 4X4 is over $26K and that's with a 4 cyl. engine. I don't see how Toyota would offer the FJ with a V6 for less than the little RAV4. No way! I can see a base price of $25K and at least $30K loaded.You are probably looking at a $35K truck after all the options.

Havenview
04-01-2005, 02:38 PM
I don't get the FJ cruiser, it's ugly. Most toyotas are ugly-look at the avalon, RAV4 etc. The element looks like a modern incarnation of the Tonka trucks I played with in my youth. The element design works, it doesn't look cobbled together. I bought it because it isn't a SUV its a new type of vehicle. After looking at another Mercedes, SUV'S and station wagons I purchased the element as the most practical vehicle I could find. The road noise doesn't bother me I have two convertibles. With the five speed the car is suitably quick around town and on the highway. The interior configurations are phenomenal. I have transported 10ft. lengths of pipe and an eight ft. ladder and I was still able to close the hatch. With the rear seats in their standard position the storage area behind them is great. If a buyer needs more storage space and the ability to carry 4+ passengers at the same time the element is not for them. The element isn't bought as an off road vehicle or for towing or to transport large numbers of people its bought for maximum utility in a stylish package.

Ranger
04-01-2005, 02:57 PM
I think the FJ is cool and will probably look into one if I ever decide to get rid of the E, unless they improve the E.
My buddy had one back in highscool the same color as that concept.

But one question and a comment.

Question:
What does this have to do with shopping and test driving an Element?
Shouldn't this be in the Misc section or something?

Comment:
Regardless of the hype about being "affordable" and appealing to those "on a budget", Toyota has said that it should base "around $20,000".

"Base" means a two wheel drive with no bells and whistles will be around $20,000, maybe even $19,995 just to work the "under 20 grand" angle to "people on a budget".
Some of you on this board may not care about this as several posts would indicate some have more dollars than sense, but...
There is no way after adding all the electronic gizmos and nanies, four wheel drive, the 6 speed tranny, etc, etc., that this thing is going to be under $25,000 optioned out.

There are several people on this board who have an E with 4WD, anti-lock brakes, EBD, power windows, cruise, good stereo, etc. and literally paid around $20,000 out the door.
These two are very different vehicles set at very different price points.

Don't get me wrong, I think it will be a very popular vehicle and I wouldn't mind having one, but it's like saying Nissan came out with the solution with all the E's woes with the last (pre 05) Xterra.
More power. (Available supercharger!).
More ground clearance.
Better off road capability.
Full size spare!
Affordably priced starting around $16,000 for those on a budget.

Oh, wait a minute.
That's a two wheel drive with no air, cruise, power locks or windows...well that one sucks.
The MSRP on a supercharged V-6 auto with the groovy stereo and 17 inch wheels is pushing 30 grand. (My father has one.)
It also gets about 15 MPG on the freeway, only if you keep it under 75 and about 12 in town.

Not so comparable anymore, is it.

nhE
04-01-2005, 04:18 PM
I say keep dreaming. You can't even get a fully loaded RAV4 for under $25K. The MSRP for a fully loaded RAV4 4X4 is over $26K and that's with a 4 cyl. engine. I don't see how Toyota would offer the FJ with a V6 for less than the little RAV4. No way! I can see a base price of $25K and at least $30K loaded.You are probably looking at a $35K truck after all the options.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, OMG, this is HILARIOUS. Are you serious? APRILS FOOLS RIGHT?!?!?!?! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaa. A car that is clearly a competitor to the Element, Liberty and Wrangler, all of which base at $20,000 or less and this will base at $25,000??? This is right in line the "very low price" line that they are pitching. You, sir, are either very stupid or very funny.

nhE
04-01-2005, 04:21 PM
I wonder whether the individuals who are so excited about the FJ Cruiser seriously looked at the 4Runner. If so, why did they choose the Element instead? Price, fuel economy, highway handling, looks, spartan interior? When I look at the specs for the FJ, I see a 2 door 4Runner, a few inches shorter in wheel base, and foot less in overall length.

Anyways I'm sure the FJ will draw customers away from a variety of vehicles, including some Element owners who still dream of going off road (or at least want to look the part).

paulj

I am very excited about the FJ, and I never considered the 4Runner for many many reasons, mostly cost (more than $10,000 more than the Element) and size, I don't need a vehicle that big, or that plain looking. If the FJ had been out, I would have looked at that, mostly because of its $20,000 base price, $8,000 cheaper than a 4Runner.

ElementalFox
04-01-2005, 05:26 PM
Love my E but I'll be looking at the FJ when it comes out. A friend is already planning on the FJ to replace his Pathfinder -- unless the FJ falls far short of reports and expectations.

as with all other toyotas it looks like $hit

ElementalFox
04-01-2005, 05:28 PM
So this could potentially be out this fall as an 06' model?? Hmm didn't think I would be getting rid of my E that quickly..

go ahead make some used e buyer happy

to leave for that piece of #$it

good god

hardguy
04-01-2005, 05:36 PM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, OMG, this is HILARIOUS. Are you serious? APRILS FOOLS RIGHT?!?!?!?! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaa. A car that is clearly a competitor to the Element, Liberty and Wrangler, all of which base at $20,000 or less and this will base at $25,000??? This is right in line the "very low price" line that they are pitching. You, sir, are either very stupid or very funny.

I hope you are not referring to the MSRP of a loaded RAV4. If you don't believe me, go to Toyota.com and build a RAV4 with the top of the line option package and it will come to a MSRP a little over $25K. I highly doubt that Toyota will be selling the new V6 equipped loaded FJ's cheaper than their loaded 4 cylinder RAV4's. Use your common sense. Stupid?! You should look in the mirror and ask yourself. Funny?! I'm but was trying to be in that post.

nhE
04-01-2005, 05:57 PM
I hope you are not referring to the MSRP of a loaded RAV4. If you don't believe me, go to Toyota.com and build a RAV4 with the top of the line option package and it will come to a MSRP a little over $25K. I highly doubt that Toyota will be selling the new V6 equipped loaded FJ's cheaper than their loaded 4 cylinder RAV4's. Use your common sense. Stupid?! You should look in the mirror and ask yourself. Funny?! I'm but was trying to be in that post.

You are stupid for many reasons, I am sure, but you just gave us another reason. If you actually use the Toyota webpage to base the price of the FJ, then you are using it incorrectly. The RAV4 goes from $18,800 to around $25,000. But if you look at the Highlander, an SUV that is bigger than the FJ and is not considered "an affordable vehicle for young buyers", you will see that the Highlander bases at $25,000. So to state that the FJ will base at the same price is pure idiocy. If you look at any article on the web, or any car magazine, you will see they all agree that it will base around $20,000, about $1000 or $2000 more expensive than the RAV4. A fully loaded model will go for about $25,000-$26,000. This is clear if you base the price on Toyotas other SUVs and if you base it on the FJs clear competitors. So smarten up.

SeattleE
04-01-2005, 06:46 PM
When did this thread degenerate into name calling?

Oh yeah, I'll try not to take it personally that some of you think my beloved Tacoma is an...let's see if I get this right..."ugly piece of sh!!"

Can we try to keep the discussion civil...I'm longing for the days of Kayakin' Dan calling me names...;-)

jesse

hardguy
04-01-2005, 06:51 PM
You are stupid for many reasons, I am sure, but you just gave us another reason. If you actually use the Toyota webpage to base the price of the FJ, then you are using it incorrectly. The RAV4 goes from $18,800 to around $25,000. But if you look at the Highlander, an SUV that is bigger than the FJ and is not considered "an affordable vehicle for young buyers", you will see that the Highlander bases at $25,000. So to state that the FJ will base at the same price is pure idiocy. If you look at any article on the web, or any car magazine, you will see they all agree that it will base around $20,000, about $1000 or $2000 more expensive than the RAV4. A fully loaded model will go for about $25,000-$26,000. This is clear if you base the price on Toyotas other SUVs and if you base it on the FJs clear competitors. So smarten up.

Yeah, that Highlander with the $25K base price is a 160hp 4 cylinder model. Open your eyes and read! A new FJ with a 245 hp V6 with 4x4 and all the options Toyota is planing on offering ie eletronic four wheel traction control and rear sonar backup assist and more will not be less than $30K. That's for sure. I will not waste this board's bandwidth and my time to argue with you no longer. That's my opinion and you have yours and by calling someone stupid is just childish. I will end by saying if you think so highly of Toyota SUV's, then why didn't you buy one.

IRV
04-01-2005, 07:07 PM
When the FJ comes to market, you won't see a stripped down, base price unit. This will be a hot car, and you won't find one under 29k. Just my opinion.

hardguy
04-01-2005, 07:19 PM
When the FJ comes to market, you won't see a stripped down, base price unit. This will be a hot car, and you won't find one under 29k. Just my opinion.

Finally common sense. I agree 100%. The word "affordable" to Toyota pretty much means if you can't afford those $4000 option packages we tack on our SUV's you can always buy the BASE model with nothing inside.

Ranger
04-01-2005, 07:39 PM
Finally common sense. I agree 100%. The word "affordable" to Toyota pretty much means if you can't afford those $4000 option packages we tack on our SUV's you can always buy the BASE model with nothing inside.

Amen.
:-D

paulj
04-01-2005, 07:45 PM
If you look at any article on the web, or any car magazine, you will see they all agree that it will base around $20,000, about $1000 or $2000 more expensive than the RAV4. .

So does Autoweek mean $20,500 or $25,000 in the following quote?

http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101856

Toyota has yet to mention a number on pricing, but Esmond assures the vehicle will “deliver true off-road ruggedness, image and performance at a very low price, making it highly accessible for a large volume of young buyers.” We think that translates to an Xterra-like price in the mid-$20,000 range, at least to start.

hardguy
04-01-2005, 08:04 PM
Hey Paulj, maybe he meant $1000 to $2000 more expensive than a FULLY LOADED $25K RAV4. That's still in the "affordable" $20,000's, ha ha. Or maybe that 245hp V6 engine is part of a $10,000 option package we don't know about.

j4gitr
04-01-2005, 08:24 PM
I think that many folks here miss the point of the Element. That is affordable to purchase, affordable to own (todays paper talked of oil rising from $55 a barrel to possibly $100 a barrel) and fun to drive. How many Humvee's ever see an off road experience. I would guess that the same holds true for the majority of SUV's.
The E is neither muscle nor luxury but it is extremely well executed and hits a magic price point. Something the Japanese have done in electronics, and auto's. I am a steadfast German car lover, but I think this car is a home run. I just don't think enough people have gotten past the first impression. My first impression was "its ugly". I now happen to think its one of the smarter looking vehicles on the road. I'm seriously considering giving up the driving experience of Audi A6 for the fun and practicality of the Element.
I don't think the FJ is shooting at the same target.
Let's also consider each others opinions and celebrate that we don't have to live with Henry's philosophy of "you can have it in any color you want as long as its black"
Thank goodness for choices.

wankerklink
04-01-2005, 08:33 PM
think you're missing the point with how they are talking about it. I don't think they're trying to fill a niche in their product line. I think they're trying to fill a market niche they once had with the original fj's. Think you'd be a bit on the high side.

I think Toyota is trying to fill both niches.
4wd Nissan xterra price range---$22900-$27300

Popawheelie
04-01-2005, 09:11 PM
I bought the E because it can be towed flat behinf my RV. I don't believe Toyota would recommend this machine to be towed flat. Does anyone know? :?

dbpaddler
04-01-2005, 11:03 PM
wow. 6pages in a day. guess this gathered a bit of attention. People that keep on saying it's ugly have to realize it's a matter of taste. People that own Elements should be the last people to call a vehicle ugly unless it's a Pacer or Gremlin. There are many who think the E is fugly. You don't like it, you don't like it.

This seemed to dwindle down into pricing issues. I would imagine a base FJ carrying about a $1500-2000 premium over a base E. I think Toyota is going to keep the interior very spartan, similar to the E's which will keep the pricing down. I believe that is one reason the Xterra can hit the $27k mark, making it more luxury. Just look at the CRV. It's special edition MSRP's over $25k, and it all seems to be luxury interior amenities. I think that is one thing that will keep the FJ in a reasonable price realm for the "younger" car buyers. All the speculation will be just that until they finalize the interior and give a more formal price structure.

nhE
04-02-2005, 09:47 AM
alright, I apologize for being immature and calling names, that was rude. I am frustrated that people are coming up with imaginary numbers for whatever reason. I did my research and base my guess on what some pretty reputable auto sources claim.

Car and Driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=29&article_id=9286&page_number=1

Kelly Blue Book, knows a thing or two about auto pricing
http://kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/ke.kb.sp?kbb.NH;;NH001;&03276&&fj;autoshow/2005/pc

These are clearly two of the biggest names in auto publication, and they both clearly state that this will base below $20,000. So I am not going to argue anymore, I love my E, and when I was shopping for a new car, it was the best option for what I was looking for. But the FJ has everything that the E has, and more. The E and the FJ will share a lot of things, size, features, the only difference will be the increased ground clearance and a V-6. I got a fully loaded E for $21,000, I know for sure that if a V-6 was an option that it would not add $9,000 to the price. So in conclusion, I hope you enjoy your E as much as I do, but I do plan on taking a look at the FJ. Again, sorry for being rude earlier, it is just really frustrating for me to listen to people who try to discredit a vehicle that is a competitor based on numbers that they are making up on their own. Competition is good, why would you be against it?

Nat
04-02-2005, 10:10 AM
IMO, if we would try to streamline and organize performance/day-to-day issues about the E, they probably fall into some of the compromises Honda made in the design and production.

1) Engine options -lack of power (no V6 or turbo)
2) No low gear for serious off-roading
3) Ground clearence issues
4) Seating for 4 vs. seating for 5

If Honda wants to compete and win in this class, they could add these features and freshen the E to look more aggressive and perform on par with the FJ without losing the E's funk factor and utility. The CRV could continue to fill the small SUV niche for Honda and the E could fairly easily morph into the FJ Cruiser killer. JMO

nhE
04-02-2005, 11:43 PM
alright, I apologize for being immature and calling names, that was rude. I am frustrated that people are coming up with imaginary numbers for whatever reason. I did my research and base my guess on what some pretty reputable auto sources claim.

Car and Driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=29&article_id=9286&page_number=1

Kelly Blue Book, knows a thing or two about auto pricing
http://kbb.com/kb/ki.dll/ke.kb.sp?kbb.NH;;NH001;&03276&&fj;autoshow/2005/pc

These are clearly two of the biggest names in auto publication, and they both clearly state that this will base below $20,000. So I am not going to argue anymore, I love my E, and when I was shopping for a new car, it was the best option for what I was looking for. But the FJ has everything that the E has, and more. The E and the FJ will share a lot of things, size, features, the only difference will be the increased ground clearance and a V-6. I got a fully loaded E for $21,000, I know for sure that if a V-6 was an option that it would not add $9,000 to the price. So in conclusion, I hope you enjoy your E as much as I do, but I do plan on taking a look at the FJ. Again, sorry for being rude earlier, it is just really frustrating for me to listen to people who try to discredit a vehicle that is a competitor based on numbers that they are making up on their own. Competition is good, why would you be against it?

did my evidence bore everyone or finally put to rest the idea that this would base anywhere about $20,000? Just curious...

paulj
04-03-2005, 12:55 AM
nhE
Why did you buy an Element instead of an Xterra? Or to put it another way, why is the FJ Cruiser better than the Xterra? Feel free to substitute 4Runner, Wrangler or Liberty for the Xterra, if that is what you looked at.

If you move beyond superficial things like a similar side door design (also shared by many extended cab pickups), a boxy outline (there are boxier cars out there), and lots of plastic in the interior (though we don't have details on the FJ interior), the Element and FJ Cruiser are not all that similar. The drive train is very different. The tailgate is different. The options packaging is different. Floor height is different. Rear seat folding mechanism is different. Roof racks are totally different. I expect handling will be quite different.

As to price, I try to base my guess on the prices of comparable Toyota products. One approach is to start with the 4Runner and substract a foot in length, and various interior features, but add back on some external frills. Alternatively one could start with a base Tacoma, and add on features that will be standard (V6, AC, seating for 5, etc). Other data points are other cars in the Toyota stable, the RAV4 and Highlander, as well as prices of competitors like the Xterra and Liberty.

Keep in mind the the base model will be rear wheel drive without the 4x4 goodies. What does a 2wd V6 automatic SUV with big wheels sell for these days?

paulj

nhE
04-03-2005, 11:24 AM
nhE
Why did you buy an Element instead of an Xterra? Or to put it another way, why is the FJ Cruiser better than the Xterra? Feel free to substitute 4Runner, Wrangler or Liberty for the Xterra, if that is what you looked at.

If you move beyond superficial things like a similar side door design (also shared by many extended cab pickups), a boxy outline (there are boxier cars out there), and lots of plastic in the interior (though we don't have details on the FJ interior), the Element and FJ Cruiser are not all that similar. The drive train is very different. The tailgate is different. The options packaging is different. Floor height is different. Rear seat folding mechanism is different. Roof racks are totally different. I expect handling will be quite different.

As to price, I try to base my guess on the prices of comparable Toyota products. One approach is to start with the 4Runner and substract a foot in length, and various interior features, but add back on some external frills. Alternatively one could start with a base Tacoma, and add on features that will be standard (V6, AC, seating for 5, etc). Other data points are other cars in the Toyota stable, the RAV4 and Highlander, as well as prices of competitors like the Xterra and Liberty.

Keep in mind the the base model will be rear wheel drive without the 4x4 goodies. What does a 2wd V6 automatic SUV with big wheels sell for these days?

paulj

I bought an Element because of the looks. Well, that is why I started looking at them. I did not need a new car, but when I saw the Element and heard about the fold up seats, pretty good ground clearance, 4x4, and good price. So I test drove one and fell in love with it. I was not looking for a car, I happened to find the Element and really wanted it. I still love my Element, but to me the FJ has a lot of what I love about the Element, cool looks, great ground clearance, 4x4, a promised utilitarian interior with seats that allow for maximum space. It also has one thing that I personally wish the Element had, a V6. I don't care if it means worse gas milage, or more money, to me, it is worth the extra power. I know that not everyone wants a V6, again, it is split between the people here that want good gas mileage and lower costs vs more power. I know that there are tons of people here that would love more power if it was an option, is it so bad to have a V6 as an option? The other thing that was a huge pull for me when I started looking at the Element was the Honda reputation. Few would argue that Toyota has this same reputation. Now if this was a Nissan FJ, or a Ford FJ, I would not be as excited, because of quality questions.

Now, you gave reasons why the Element and FJ have little in common. I disagree. You gave examples of how they are different, like drivetrain, floor height, and tailgate. Well, of course, compare any two SUVs or any two cars and you are going to find differences, they are not carbon copies of each other. But they are similar, similar enough to be considered for purchace by the same buyer. Ask ANY Element owner what the biggest draw was on the Element, and they will say either looks or unique interior. Well, the FJ has the strange looks, and they promise to have a utilitarian interior with back seats that fold for maximum room. This is a direct shot at the Element and its runaway success, I dont know how you could see any different.

Now, to touch on your comments about price. Based on what Toyota has given for information, KBB and Car and Driver are estimating this start at just below $20,000. Do you feel these guys have it wrong, the biggest auto magazine and THE auto pricing source that everyone looks to for auto prices? Fine, we will compare based on other vehicles. Why has no one made this point, what is the difference between a base model Element and a base FJ? The V6, that is it. Both base as two wheel drive, steel wheels, and the list goes on. What does the Element base at? $17,000. How much does adding a V6 add as an option? Look at any car in this price range that has V6 as an option, and it only adds about $2000. Seeing as they have the same dimensions, that means that this will base at $19,000. I have been saying $20,000 because that accounts for other unforsealbe things. Now I know for a fact that this will base around $20,000 and will probably go for $25,000 with a well equipped car. Now if the interior is as great as they claim it will be, I will truly look at this car. Now if you are not convinced that this will go from btw. $20,000 and $25,000, fine, you never will be then, even when it comes out you will claim you heard of someone who paid somewhere btw $25,000 and $30,000, and this is fine, some people are like that, I cant change it and I should not try to stoop down to their level. I do believe, however, that most reasonable people understand that, although they are not carbon copies, the Element and the FJ have a lot in common, and most reasonable people will agree that adding a V6 is not an $8,000 option, it is a $2,000 option. Any thoughts, did I miss something?

rodaniel
04-03-2005, 12:09 PM
Going on aesthetics alone, there are certainly some styling elements of the FJ Cruiser that I like - the front facade and the chunky luggage rack cheif among those. But parts of the vehicle seem a little 'cobbled together' to me. From the top of the doors down, there's continuity or flow from the front to rear. But the windows and roofline areas seem like an afterthought and lack the style - and maybe the visibility - offered by other small SUVs, especially the E. :-D

Got nothing against Toyota, but the FJ seems like it needed more time on the designer's drawing board...

Phill
04-03-2005, 12:40 PM
It may be a RAV dressed up to look beefy. I would bet that it will cost way more than an Element. It looks like a solid color much like the Scions. One of the turnoffs to me when looking at the Toys before I bought my E was the paint finishes. Honda has much nicer colors and paint.

campywilly
04-03-2005, 01:08 PM
i want one of those.... i generally don't like Toyotas, but this one just might make me switch.... :\

booggerg
04-03-2005, 01:45 PM
The FJ's got a SRA right? that's a huge difference compared to the Element.

Now if they can drop a diesel that in motha... and have it sounding like a school bus it'd be the best!

paulj
04-03-2005, 02:35 PM
SRA? Don't see any mention of that in the press release, but then I don't know what the letters stand for.

The FJ Cruiser doesn't have any relation to the RAV4; it is 4Runner based.

I just noticed that the rear wiper is in the options list. That will lower the base price a bit :) And those mirrors with 'image lights' are also options.

Here are some images of the concept car from 2003
http://www.rockcrawler.com/features/newsshorts/03january/fj_cruiser.asp

In particular here are the rear seats:

http://www.rockcrawler.com/features/newsshorts/03january/fj_cruiser14.jpg

http://www.rockcrawler.com/features/newsshorts/03january/fj_cruiser13.jpg

In production they are either going to have to move the rear seats forward so they clear the wheel wells, or seating for 5 is going to pretty tight. The back view shows the seat back which will be the floor when the seats fold flat. To get the seats to fold flat into the floor, the cushions have to be quite thin.

nhE
04-03-2005, 02:55 PM
SRA? Don't see any mention of that in the press release, but then I don't know what the letters stand for.

The FJ Cruiser doesn't have any relation to the RAV4; it is 4Runner based.

I just noticed that the rear wiper is in the options list. That will lower the base price a bit :) And those mirrors with 'image lights' are also options.

Here are some images of the concept car from 2003
http://www.rockcrawler.com/features/newsshorts/03january/fj_cruiser.asp

In particular here are the rear seats:

http://www.rockcrawler.com/features/newsshorts/03january/fj_cruiser14.jpg

http://www.rockcrawler.com/features/newsshorts/03january/fj_cruiser13.jpg

In production they are either going to have to move the rear seats forward so they clear the wheel wells, or seating for 5 is going to pretty tight. The back view shows the seat back which will be the floor when the seats fold flat. To get the seats to fold flat into the floor, the cushions have to be quite thin.

Yeah, the seating for 5 is not a big selling point for me, few cars, besides big luxury cars have seating that is comfortable for 3 in the back. I hope they come up with something unique for the back seats, I think that is why they have not finalized the interior, what could be holding it up besides the final design of a groundbreaking set of seats in the back... This was one of the biggest draws for me to the Element, the cool seats, hope they do something interesting with the ones in the FJ.

booggerg
04-03-2005, 03:16 PM
Sorry, I meant SRA=solid rear axel... since the 4 runner has one.

campywilly
04-03-2005, 03:22 PM
I bought the E because it can be towed flat behinf my RV. I don't believe Toyota would recommend this machine to be towed flat. Does anyone know? :?
is your E an AWD? shouldn't be towed at all if it is. :\

paulj
04-03-2005, 04:07 PM
is your E an AWD? shouldn't be towed at all if it is. :\

As thoroughly discussed in a recent thread, the Element can be towed with ALL wheels on the ground, as is typically done behind RVs. Detailed instructions are given in the manual.

This table of available 'base plates' for Toyotas should give an idea of what ones can be towed. Look in particular at footnote 15. It doesn't look like there are problems towing a current 4Runner. Of course, it will take time for companies like Blue Ox to come up with a base plate for a new model like the FJ.

paulj

Picture of a towing base plate on an Element:
http://www.aemfg.com/Baseplates/JPGS/BX2230.jpg

campywilly
04-03-2005, 04:34 PM
As thoroughly discussed in a recent thread, the Element can be towed with ALL wheels on the ground, as is typically done behind RVs. Detailed instructions are given in the manual.
sorry. my bad. :\

dbpaddler
04-04-2005, 10:36 AM
Have you seen original FJ's? The point in the design was to pay homage to the original. Here's a pic to give you an idea:
http://rockymountaincruisers.com/fullsize.jpg
But the windows and roofline areas seem like an afterthought and lack the style - and maybe the visibility - offered by other small SUVs, especially the E. :-D

Got nothing against Toyota, but the FJ seems like it needed more time on the designer's drawing board...

e-bone
04-04-2005, 12:08 PM
That actually looks pretty cool ...

But ... in a way it depends on what you want. A lot of people like the "cute" looks of the E. I mean ... I'm not at all a "tough" or "rugged" guy, and I got the AWD just for the occational VA snow and gravel driveway, etc ...

I think the E's looks can flit somewhere between "cute and sporty" and "cute and rugged" depending. I didn't put the sidesteps or luggage rack on e.g. because I currently have no use for them and I think they detract from the "sporty" and add to the "rugged" ... and I'd rather look cute and sporty than rugged.

But if you want rugged, that FJ is definetely more "masculine" looking.


As for utility ... I've no doubt that "real men" would prefer a more versatile vehicle. I am a bit of a computer nerd and far from being a real man ... I plan on just throwing my laundry, Groceries and beer, and the occational computer, etc ... in the back of my E.

I guess I never really thought of the E as a serious/hardcore 4wd type vehicle to begin with .... I considered it more a hybrid type car.

In summary ... I'd say if your needs lean in the "4wd/pickup truck/jeep" direction, that FJ looks to be a better car.

If your needs lean in the "station wagon" direction, the E may be preferrable.

If you just need a car and want it to look like a box (and feel like a gangster), get the scion. :)

hiker chick
04-04-2005, 02:36 PM
I now look forward to the FJ's release just to see the ensuing discussion on this board.

Coming from this crew, the most ludicrous criticism of the FJ (or any other vehicle) is that it is ugly. More than most car owners, E owners ought to be mindful, and humble, about how subjective "ugly" and "cool" are.

The E certainly pushes different buttons in different people. Not surprising in a vehicle that melds so many modes -- car, van, SUV. So while my "mods" are a hitch receiver and Yakima Loadwarrior, others mods of choice are low profile tires, lowered suspension and de-badging. Whatever floats your boat.

I came at it from the SUV angle - having first looked at the Liberty and X-terra while I was living in the Pacific Northwest and wanted something that could handle the rough roads to remote trailheads. I didn't buy the E for the Pacific Northwest or in the PNW. It's for DC and my dog. Am a fan from way back of Toyota Land Cruisers, as my uncle kept a 1969 LC for 20 years and that thing was incredibly capable and reliable.

That FJ's proposed 245hp, 6-speed manual (on the 4x4) and ground clearance are very appealing to me. But then so is the ability of a not tall person (wearing a skirt) to slide right into the E precisely because it does not have the higher ground clearance.

The E is an excellent urban vehicle, terrific for DC. Not coincidentally, the trailheads I frequent in this region are asphalt. <sigh>

booggerg
04-04-2005, 06:03 PM
I know that the new FJ is based on the styling of the original.. although I had wished if they had kept it a bit more mundane.. something modern/retro like the G500 or LR Defender would be superb!

TrailNut
04-04-2005, 06:27 PM
... doubt that "real men" would prefer a more versatile vehicle. ...In summary ... I'd say if your needs lean in the "4wd/pickup truck/jeep" direction, that FJ looks to be a better car.

:)
i...
race xc mt. bikes
play taekowndo
practice hapkido "karate"
go backpacking
go deer and pig hunting
go shooting at the rage, M14sa (semiautomatic version of the military's M-14 7.61x51mm/.308 rifle)
avid heterosexual
drink beer and singlemalt scotch whisky
eats porterhouses and ribs
likes fast motorycles (not old enough to appreciate Harleys yet)
love my element
so goes sterotypes

well, than again...i do like to read and drink red wine and watch "desparate housewifes" and "24" and "contender"

u bored yet?

Hondamade4dogs
04-04-2005, 06:29 PM
Ouch....My butt from these seats! And the Dash, looks worse than that out of a Jetsons Cartoon. with that, i'll stick to the Element, :lol:

IRV
04-04-2005, 06:37 PM
Well, if they use lawn chairs as seats they will have great interior flexibility and help to get to that 20k price point.

booggerg
04-04-2005, 07:06 PM
Ouch....My butt from these seats! And the Dash, looks worse than that out of a Jetsons Cartoon. with that, i'll stick to the Element, :lol:

Hello!?! do you understand the concept of a "concept" vehicle? Does this ring a bell?
http://www.automobil-magazin.de/fotos/hox1.jpg

You wanna see a nasty looking dash?
http://www.automobil-magazin.de/fotos/hox2.jpg

You're obviously attempting to dissemniate anything negative you can about the FJ, doing so with hardley and credibility on your part.

Sheniferous
04-04-2005, 07:12 PM
Look man, simply put the E and Fj aren't in the same class. The E is an urban cruiser with 4WD capability that is meant for snow, gravel, and rain. That's fine because I don't live on a dirt road, I don't scale mountains but once a year maybe, I don't go off roading in 4' deep mud rivers. I drive my Element in the city, on LA's hellish freeways and it's fine for what I need.

I really do think that the "comparisons" between the E and FJ should stop because like I said, they are NOT in the same class. If you look at all of Honda's products, including the "trucks and SUV's" line, and compare it to Toyota's or Nissan's, you've got to be kidding yourself if you think Honda really intends to play for the "serious" off-roading segment of the market.

Sheniferous
04-04-2005, 07:14 PM
Hello!?! do you understand the concept of a "concept" vehicle? Does this ring a bell?
http://www.automobil-magazin.de/fotos/hox1.jpg

You wanna see a nasty looking dash?
http://www.automobil-magazin.de/fotos/hox2.jpg

You're obviously attempting to dissemniate anything negative you can about the FJ, doing so with hardley and credibility on your part.

Man, Honda did stay very true to the concept model-x exterior when making the element. But even if you look at the model-x's dash, you can clearly see the design lineage from concept --> prototype --> production. Honda has always been a very conservative company and even the concept vehicles reflect that. Even when compared to the FJ's concept interior the Model-X's is far more conservative.

nhE
04-04-2005, 10:28 PM
Look man, simply put the E and Fj aren't in the same class. The E is an urban cruiser with 4WD capability that is meant for snow, gravel, and rain. That's fine because I don't live on a dirt road, I don't scale mountains but once a year maybe, I don't go off roading in 4' deep mud rivers. I drive my Element in the city, on LA's hellish freeways and it's fine for what I need.

I really do think that the "comparisons" between the E and FJ should stop because like I said, they are NOT in the same class. If you look at all of Honda's products, including the "trucks and SUV's" line, and compare it to Toyota's or Nissan's, you've got to be kidding yourself if you think Honda really intends to play for the "serious" off-roading segment of the market.

WOW, so because the FJ has 2.7 inches more ground clearance than the Element, you can make no comparisons? The ground clearance and the bigger engine are the only major differences. Just because the Element is not made for serious offroading does not mean that it has nothing to do with the Element. That is like saying that the Hummer H3 and H2 have nothing in common because one has more ground clearance than the other, they are very similar and many many people who would be turned on by the Element will also be turned on by this, mostly because of the looks and the functional interior.

rodaniel
04-04-2005, 10:36 PM
Actually, DB, I really like the looks of the original!

Sheniferous
04-04-2005, 10:53 PM
WOW, so because the FJ has 2.7 inches more ground clearance than the Element, you can make no comparisons? The ground clearance and the bigger engine are the only major differences. Just because the Element is not made for serious offroading does not mean that it has nothing to do with the Element. That is like saying that the Hummer H3 and H2 have nothing in common because one has more ground clearance than the other, they are very similar and many many people who would be turned on by the Element will also be turned on by this, mostly because of the looks and the functional interior.

Did I say you couldn't compare them? You could compare apples to pot roast too... "hell, you could drive with your feet if you want to, that don't make it a good idea!". Lol... no, what I am saying is that they are not in the same class, take for example price point... when a fully loaded E is what a base FJ (speculation) will cost, they simply are not in the same class.

paulj
04-05-2005, 12:06 AM
... The ground clearance and the bigger engine are the only major differences. ....

There are few minor differences under the skin (some I am projecting from the 4Runner)
- body on frame construction
- front/back oriented engine
- rear wheel drive (in 2wd)
- limited slip rear diff
- different 4-wheel drive system (I'm not familiar with the details of Toyota's current systems)
- solid rear axle (v. dbl wishbone suspension on Element)
- double wishbone front suspension (v. MacPherson struts on Element)
- curb weight probably ~4000lb (v 3300lb for Element)

booggerg
04-05-2005, 12:37 AM
You can basically sum it up as so: both are lifestyle vehicles, and are very comparable in that regard. The only aspect in which you should not compare them is in their offroad capabilities. They are very comparable otherwise.

mrsilly
04-05-2005, 12:52 AM
Let's also see what honda follows up the element with. Toyota has had the benefit of building on Honda's concept. I think that the FJ cruiser looks pretty damn cool. But it'll be debuting 3 or 4 years after the Element first hit the street. No surprise if they pick up where Honda left off & make some improvements.

As to all the off-road concerns, I don't think Honda aimed the element at hard-core 4x4 off road enthusiasts. This (the E) is a small SUV that can go off-road. There are trade-offs no matter what direction you go in. If you place more emphasis on off-road design elements (no pun intended), then you sacrafice on gas mileage and highway/city driving.

I'm looking forward to seeing my first FJ on the road. I'll keep my eyes peeled!

paulj
04-05-2005, 04:40 AM
If you want to guess what Honda will do with the Element, don't look at what Toyota is doing. Look at what Honda is trying out on other cars.

For example the 05 CRV has a modified RT4WD that activates faster (with an added cam mechanism) and a 5 speed automatic (with 2 overdrive levels). The Pilot and Ridgeline have a different reactive AWD mechanism, one that can shift some torque between right and left rear wheels. The Accura RL has an even more sophisticated AWD system, which can send as much as 70% of power to the outside rear wheel on a curve. Electronic stability systems linked with the ABS brakes will also become standard.

I'm sure safety and fuel economy will drive Honda's development efforts far more than any notion of 'off-road' ability.

The best Honda combo for doing serious trail riding is a Ridgeline carrying a Honda ATV.

paulj

Hondamade4dogs
04-05-2005, 07:29 AM
Wow that is a cool Pod on your Blue Element. What kind of box is that ? :lol:

nhE
04-05-2005, 08:43 AM
You can basically sum it up as so: both are lifestyle vehicles, and are very comparable in that regard. The only aspect in which you should not compare them is in their offroad capabilities. They are very comparable otherwise.

Thank you :) I totally agree. Well put.

mrsilly
04-05-2005, 11:30 AM
Wow that is a cool Pod on your Blue Element. What kind of box is that ? :lol:

Up top is a thule evolution - 1600 (I think). Around back is a hitch-haul cargo carrier.

nhE
04-08-2005, 09:09 PM
wow, I was just curious and under Shoppin and Test Drivin, this is the most replied to post of all time, and one of the most viewed, just an observation...

Hondamade4dogs
04-09-2005, 02:56 PM
AUTOMOBILE MAGAZINE (may 2005) has the 2006 Toyota FJ in there showing the price to be between $25,000 to $30,000...So that should end the thought of comparing it to the Honda Element.

dbpaddler
04-09-2005, 04:43 PM
yeah. I forgot, that's the bible of all that is 4 wheel and internal combustion. Well the one guy that tried to say pricing would be higher quoted some long ass boring blog and the Kelley Blue Book article. At the end of the Kelley Blue Book article was this statement:

Pricing: Positioned beneath the RAV4, we expect pricing to start in the high teens.

and to the guy that talked about the styling and the original FJ's, I liked the original too. Couldn't find a nice one when I was looking and ended up with a CJ5. As far as styling cues though, I was comparing the similar roof designs to the guy that thought it was an afterthought in design.

And for people talking about not comparing it to the E; if it's in a similar price category it should be compared. It's a UTILITY vehicle with 2 or 4 wd and a versatile interior. In this case it's a bit more beefy than the E in the size, engine and drivetrain department. I know many on here are all about lowering their E's and putting big rims and all that kind of stuff, but many fall on the other end of the spectrum that want more rugged looks and usefulness. So let everyone decide for themselves if they like it or not and want to compare the two.

nhE
04-09-2005, 05:42 PM
yeah. I forgot, that's the bible of all that is 4 wheel and internal combustion. Well the one guy that tried to say pricing would be higher quoted some long ass boring blog and the Kelley Blue Book article. At the end of the Kelley Blue Book article was this statement:



and to the guy that talked about the styling and the original FJ's, I liked the original too. Couldn't find a nice one when I was looking and ended up with a CJ5. As far as styling cues though, I was comparing the similar roof designs to the guy that thought it was an afterthought in design.

And for people talking about not comparing it to the E; if it's in a similar price category it should be compared. It's a UTILITY vehicle with 2 or 4 wd and a versatile interior. In this case it's a bit more beefy than the E in the size, engine and drivetrain department. I know many on here are all about lowering their E's and putting big rims and all that kind of stuff, but many fall on the other end of the spectrum that want more rugged looks and usefulness. So let everyone decide for themselves if they like it or not and want to compare the two.

Thank you. The FJ will continue to be compared to the Element because it is basically a slightly larger Element with a V6. And as I said before, if you read the posts, Kelly Blue Book (you know, the place where EVERYBODY goes for auto pricing) expect this to base below $20,000. Car and Driver expects the same. SOOOOO, if the FJ is not in the same class as the Element, what is?

ElementalFox
04-10-2005, 09:05 AM
ok the fj looks like a bad idea from lego it is %$#king hideous!

i mean come on it looks like the university of floridas campus vehicle.

and no it wont be starting at 19999

ElementalFox
04-10-2005, 09:06 AM
for being an element owners club you people sure like to bash the product you bought.

nhE
04-10-2005, 09:26 AM
for being an element owners club you people sure like to bash the product you bought.

lol, who bashed the Element? I didn't, if you actually read the posts, you would see that I have said that I LOVE my E, but since i have owned it, I would prefer a V6 and more off road ability, I am not bashing it, just would like these things. Everything else about the Element is amazing.

And your first post was written kind of childishly, but I think you were trying to say that the FJ looks like it was made with Legos. Is that a bad thing? I loved my Legos :) And talk about bashing a product, did you ever see the Element commercial where they built the Element out of Legos? So now you are bashing the Element, that is not very nice :)

And yes this will base below $20,000...

paulj
04-10-2005, 02:52 PM
The base price for an Xterra is under 21,000. It has a V6. It's dimensions are close to the proposed FJ dimensions. It has better ground clearance than the Element.

But for some reason, few people seem to be interested in comparing the Element with the Xterra.

paulj

and the Xterra has that 'beefy looking' roof rack :)

Where would the FJ fit within this table? These are V6 SUVs with prices in the lower 20s.
http://www.isuzu04.com/images/Rd/rodeo_compare2.jpg
http://www.isuzu04.com/images/Rd/rodeo_compare2.gif

ChumsGum
04-10-2005, 05:24 PM
20K for all that??? More like 30K.

booggerg
04-10-2005, 06:14 PM
Dude, no one is comparing the FJ to the Element hardware wise... we're just saying the FJ could potentially be a vehicle we would want to own more than the E. The only peepz comparing it to the E and talking the Fj down are those bitter E owners who want to feel they've got the best vehicle out there..

paulj
04-10-2005, 09:05 PM
Truck Trend speculates that Toyota will be willing to give up a bit of per vehicle profit, and set the base price at 22,000, with a fully equiped model at 27. They also project 35,000 units per year.

Note also that this engine calls for premium gas.

Wrangle Rubicon, Xterra, and H3 are mentioned as competition.

Without doubt the FJ Cruiser will be better than the Element when it comes of off-road driving and towing. In the looks department there are some similarities. The big debates are whether the prices will be comparable, and whether the interiors will be equally useful.

And perhaps most controversial - should Honda have based the Element on the Passport that they used to sell, as opposed to the CRV. That is what the title of this thread is implying.

paulj

booggerg
04-11-2005, 09:42 AM
well, one can't really even compare the 4 runner platform to the pilot platform since the toyota as a solid rear axel, which would give it a tremendous upperhand in off-roading scenarios. Even if the E was based in the pilot platform, it would still be impotent in that department.

superheterodyne_man
04-11-2005, 10:58 AM
Just based on the pictures...that longer hood would not be as easy to see over.

Just two doors? How would I get to things in the back?

The huge spare tire? Wouldn't want to wrestle with a heavy rear door.

dbpaddler
04-11-2005, 01:25 PM
The FJ will have rear access doors similar to the E.

And to reiterate as some others have done, we're not bashing the E. Who's going to bash their own vehicle. I wasn't even trying to bash it in my other thread that is still ongoing. I just remember from my day one on here that many people talked about (and had threads about) wanting their E to be more rugged, be a little larger, have more power, and bigger tires. A lot of people had a wish list on things they wanted but didn't have or would have liked to see on the E. The FJ seems like it's going to have some of those things, so that's the only reason I made the title what it is.

Nav-E-Gator
04-11-2005, 01:45 PM
The FJ will have rear access doors similar to the E.

And to reiterate as some others have done, we're not bashing the E. Who's going to bash their own vehicle. I wasn't even trying to bash it in my other thread that is still ongoing. I just remember from my day one on here that many people talked about (and had threads about) wanting their E to be more rugged, be a little larger, have more power, and bigger tires. A lot of people had a wish list on things they wanted but didn't have or would have liked to see on the E. The FJ seems like it's going to have some of those things, so that's the only reason I made the title what it is. Hey there DBP, I totally get that when I'm reading your thread. :) We Love our Element, but also look forward to checking out this good-looking Toyota when it comes out! It's very cool looking based on the pics so far, and I really don't see how saying that can be equated with Element bashing! :roll: Hang in there - don't be afraid to have an opinion, right?! :grin:

paulj
04-11-2005, 02:11 PM
The FJ will have rear access doors similar to the E.


So do various extended cab pickups, including Toyota's Access cab models.

http://www.toyoland.com/images/tacoma/access-cab.jpg

This Tacoma review might be a good preview of what the FJ Cruiser will be like.
http://www.toyoland.com/trucks/tacoma-review.html

Nat
04-11-2005, 03:38 PM
I've owned multiple Honda's (cars and motorcycles) since 1981. Honda has earned my business by providing the right product at the right price at the right time. The FJ and Toyota products in general are very good. Only way I'll own another Element is if they put a V6 into it that can tow 3500-4500 lbs. (same as Pilot) and offer a "beefed-up" heavy duty option. A Honda 245 h.p. V6 coupled to a 6 speed manual in a 3600 lbs package (xtra weight for bigger engine) creates a cost effective "E morph" FJ killer. I'm not being disloyal to Honda, just a realist with the opinion that Honda and "whomever" must earn my business.

IS HONDA LISTENING? iF YOU ARE, YOU WILL EARN MY BUSINESS AGAIN SOON.

paulj
04-11-2005, 04:41 PM
Is there a reason why you wouldn't buy a Pilot or Ridgeline instead of waiting for an upgraded Element or switching to Toyota? Is it a matter of price?

paulj

Nat
04-11-2005, 05:03 PM
Paulj writes:
Is there a reason why you wouldn't buy a Pilot or Ridgeline instead of waiting for an upgraded Element or switching to Toyota? Is it a matter of price

Yes!

Price AND features.

2005 Nissan Xterra, 265 h.p. V6, 6 speed hardcore 4wd for $22,000

Around here in Jersey, you can get a Pilot for $24,700.

Ridgeline is about $27,000.

I'm looking at the low $20-23,000 range

Nat
04-11-2005, 05:18 PM
P.S.

The dimensions of the E are perfect for a beefier V6 upgrade. It would give it an advantangeous weight to power ratio (E= 3600lbs-with bigger engine vs. Pilot's 4250lbs). It's all off the shelf parts for Honda. Borrow the Accord/Pilot V6. The smooth 6 speed/V6 Accord stick/transmission geared for stump pulling/hill climbing/braking in 1st gear and 6th gear overdrive for fuel savings. Also add in the feature where 3 cylinders shut down during hwy. speeds for gas savings.
Keep the interior the same but add 3 person capable rear seat and some simple upgrades and I'll be one of the first to buy it. I do have one of the first #2000 E's made. Bought the E solely on Honda and the CRV/Civic reputation.

paulj
04-11-2005, 05:55 PM
I believe the 3 cyl fuel savings mode is available on the upper end Ody. Is it available on any other Honda at this point?

The new CRV has a 5 speed automatic, but the extra gear is a higher overdrive. 1st isn't lower.

Could the transmission be taken out of the Accord without adaptation to provide the rear driveshaft connection?

Lowering 1st gear, and upping engine torque, may require beefing up the RT4WD, and other drivetrain components. I suspect it would wiser to adapt the whole Pilot drive train to fit, rather than making the change piecemeal. Otherwise you risk breaking half shafts and CV joints.

paulj

R11
04-11-2005, 07:54 PM
I don't even know why people are comparing the FJ to the E. From the sounds of it, it's a completely different type of vehicle in a different category. It is much less similar to the E than it is to the Xterra, Liberty, etc. It is a smaller, truck based SUV that looks to be designed for at least mild off-roading. Along with that comes higher weight and truck like handling and ride. The E is a largish, car based utility vehicle that also has all-wheel drive for inclement weather/snowy roads. It is not designed for off-roading and is therefore ligher duty and weight. It has car suspension and drives/rides like it. Beyond some minor styling cues the two seem quite different to me.

ron

hiker chick
04-11-2005, 09:19 PM
Some of us are comparing the E and the FJ because we own the former and the latter would have been, for us, a contender if it had been on the market.

Simple as that. For some of us.

The FJ I'd want -- 4x4, 6-speed, loaded -- will no doubt cost substantially more than the E.

I expect there will be an even more upscale version of the E come out sometime -- by Honda or someone else.

What will it be called? MC2 has a nice ring to me.

brotherc20
04-11-2005, 09:27 PM
there is absolutely no way to compare the two. They are totally different vehicles. To start, just wait and see how much the FJ will cost. Enough said.

nhE
04-12-2005, 09:02 AM
there is absolutely no way to compare the two. They are totally different vehicles. To start, just wait and see how much the FJ will cost. Enough said.

What an ignorant statement. For one thing, if there is absolutely no way to compare the FJ and E, then what can you compare the E to??? And as for cost, the base model will start at just below $20,000, as clearly stated by Car and Driver and Kelly Blue Book (the gods of auto pricing). A base E goes for $17,500, $2500 is NOT that big of a difference in that price range.

hiker chick
04-12-2005, 10:32 AM
I will compare the E to whatever I want to compare it to and defer to no one on what is a valid comparison.

Cost, for instance, is not the determining factor for some that it is for others. It's a factor, certainly, but to different degrees for different people.

When I was driving a 2001 Mazda Miata, the primary comparison was the Honda S2000 -- even though the Honda cost 50% more (about $10k more). Some Miata people switched to the Honda for additional HP. It did not interest me, for any price. Some have gone to Porsche Boxters, but they still compare the handling performance. Some moved to Minis for the two additional seats -- but they still compare the handling. Some did not because they did not like the looks, the handling or some other characteristic as well. When the Miata first came out back in '89, people who could afford Porshces and Mercedes were buying them.

Perhaps this forum should spend more time comparing the E to the Astrovan and minivans. That seems the obvious comparison for the 2-wheel drive folks. There certainly is an obvious symmetry and off-road capability is not the issue in that side-by.

I will continue to drive the E, watch the FJ, and compare both.

Anyone know when the FJ is likely to hit showrooms? Next year? This fall?

brotherc20
04-12-2005, 10:41 AM
What an ignorant statement. For one thing, if there is absolutely no way to compare the FJ and E, then what can you compare the E to??? And as for cost, the base model will start at just below $20,000, as clearly stated by Car and Driver and Kelly Blue Book (the gods of auto pricing). A base E goes for $17,500, $2500 is NOT that big of a difference in that price range.

Ingorant statement? Well it might be saying that you can't compare the 2. You can compare any 2 vehicles you want and then realize that what you are comparing are different. I've seen the articles stating base price around 20,000 but i have also seen some(autoweek) stating base price around 23,000 which to me seems to be more realistic for this vehicle and from Toyota. Then if you add some of the extras that probably wont be included in the base then the price goes way up. When i bought by E 2 years ago i compared it to the Jeep liberty. By comparing the 2 it was an easy choice which best fits ME. My E at that time was $5,000 less then the liberty that I compared and with the better gas mileage and other advantages that the E has, it was an easy choice. It all depends on what you are looking for in the vehicle you want.

nhE
04-12-2005, 10:50 AM
Ingorant statement? Well it might be saying that you can't compare the 2. You can compare any 2 vehicles you want and then realize that what you are comparing are different. I've seen the articles stating base price around 20,000 but i have also seen some(autoweek) stating base price around 23,000 which to me seems to be more realistic for this vehicle and from Toyota. Then if you add some of the extras that probably wont be included in the base then the price goes way up. When i bought by E 2 years ago i compared it to the Jeep liberty. By comparing the 2 it was an easy choice which best fits me. My E at that time was $5,000 less then the liberty that I compared.

Ok, so you are going to choose Autoweek over Car and Driver and KBB? Huh. And people keep saying stuff like "extras are going to drive the price up." Obviously, that happens with any car. The FJ comes standard with a lot of stuff, and although most FJs sold probably wont be base models (as is the case with the E) that does not mean that the base price is something we cannot talk about. So you compared the E to the Jeep Liberty and chose the E because it was cheaper. Well, get a damn Scion then, it is cheaper than the E, for that matter just get a damn Rio. Some people need to stop acting like they are all about price when most people here got an EX E with all of the options. And next time you compare two vehicles, make sure they have similar options, becasue a base E goes for about $17,500 and a base Liberty goes for $20,000, that is only $2500 less, be smart when you compare....

booggerg
04-12-2005, 11:06 AM
brotherc: You have clarify your argument... if you say it'd be hard to juxtaposition these two cars in a comparison matrix then that would be somewhat a valid statement. Simply generalizing that you can't compare these two vehicles is a flawed statement at best.

One can make comparisons on any two things, no matter what they are, let alone two private passenger vehicles..

brotherc20
04-12-2005, 11:10 AM
Ok, so you are going to choose Autoweek over Car and Driver and KBB? Huh. And people keep saying stuff like "extras are going to drive the price up." Obviously, that happens with any car. The FJ comes standard with a lot of stuff, and although most FJs sold probably wont be base models (as is the case with the E) that does not mean that the base price is something we cannot talk about. So you compared the E to the Jeep Liberty and chose the E because it was cheaper. Well, get a damn Scion then, it is cheaper than the E, for that matter just get a damn Rio. Some people need to stop acting like they are all about price when most people here got an EX E with all of the options. And next time you compare two vehicles, make sure they have similar options, becasue a base E goes for about $17,500 and a base Liberty goes for $20,000, that is only $2500 less, be smart when you compare....

Price wasn't the main factor for my E purchase, it was what the best vehicle and smartest decision for me. My E costs $21,725 and the liberty was $26,500, that was the bottom line price i could get. That was only one factor that was my decision. The gas mileage, honda's quality and lack of room compared to the E were major factors. After driving both it was a very easy choice.

booggerg
04-12-2005, 11:14 AM
Price wasn't the main factor for my E purchase, it was what the best vehicle and smartest decision for me. My E costs $21,725 and the liberty was $26,500, that was the bottom line price i could get. That was only one factor that was my decision. The gas mileage, honda's quality and lack of room compared to the E were major factors. After driving both it was a very easy choice.

So haven't you thought of the possibility for some people, the price wasn't the concern? The E offered a very unique package that just happened to be low cost? These people wanted the E for what it offered, not because of its price. This FJ looks like it could offer everything the E does + true offroad, then it indeed is a worthwhile study to compare these two vehicles...

nhE
04-12-2005, 03:20 PM
So haven't you thought of the possibility for some people, the price wasn't the concern? The E offered a very unique package that just happened to be low cost? These people wanted the E for what it offered, not because of its price. This FJ looks like it could offer everything the E does + true offroad, then it indeed is a worthwhile study to compare these two vehicles...

exactly...

ElementPilot
04-12-2005, 04:16 PM
Recently there has been many interesting boxy cars that have better styling than our beloved E. Hopefully Honda will reskin the E soon to keep up with all the others.

I came across an early artist's concept recently and understand that this "edgy" design was rejected for the E's conservative appearance. Top Honda management missed the young target market as a result, but ended up making an excellent car.

paulj
04-12-2005, 04:30 PM
Has anyone come across a discussion about the FJ Cruiser that focuses on whether it will deliver on the off-road performance? For example are the Jeep (Wrangler or Liberty) owners who think it will give them more storage space, while still being as good on the trail? Or Xterra owners who hope it will provide a flatter sleeping surface? Tacoma owners who want something shorter?

What are the prospects for off-road modifications? Seems that serious off-road drivers make all kinds of modifications, adding bumpers that can support 100 lb winches, all kinds of body armor, snorkles, etc.

paulj

booggerg
04-12-2005, 04:43 PM
Even without good prospects of tremendous off-road modifications, the stock FJ should be much much improved over the E... and I suspect that was the context of our off-road discussion and that will be good enough for a lot of people here.

paulj
04-12-2005, 05:26 PM
I didn't realize there were so many people who wished they could take their Element 'off road'. At times I though I was the only one ventured off the pavement. :) The Off Roading section of this forum really could use some more traffic. While we are waiting for what the 'E should have been', we might as well have fun in the 'E that is'.

paulj

booggerg
04-12-2005, 10:23 PM
Can't say I've done that yet, maybe this summer I will.

But when even going over bumpy streets in the city shakes the hell out of my E's frame and interior, it doesn't give me a lot of confidence to take it out into the trails.

IRV
04-12-2005, 10:56 PM
Can't say I've done that yet, maybe this summer I will.

But when even going over bumpy streets in the city shakes the hell out of my E's frame and interior, it doesn't give me a lot of confidence to take it out into the trails.

So you want an off road, rugged mini van that gets 20 miles to the gallon, won't shake you up on the street, looks really tough, has all the do-das costs 20k, :confused:
The fact of the matter is we purchase cars based not what our usal use is, but on what our extreme use is. We need 4 wheel drive 8 times in the life of the car? Better get the 4 wheel drive model. Need to load 4 x 8 sheets of drywall 20 times in 8 years? Buy a truck. Need to tow a trailer 4 times a year? Best get a gas guzzler. Need to drive cross country once a year? Better get a smooth running V6 to handle that 80 MPH trip. done ranting.

hiker chick
04-13-2005, 03:03 PM
And the E tops out at what -- 110mph?

In my daily commute I'm lucky to hit 20mph.

Wasted 90 mph this morning. May 95.

Since I usually drive alone, as do most people, a motorcycle would be sufficient 90% of the time. And so much easier to park.

Would have to get a sidecar for my dog, though.

ImpulseE
04-13-2005, 03:09 PM
Recently there has been many interesting boxy cars that have better styling than our beloved E. Hopefully Honda will reskin the E soon to keep up with all the others.

I came across an early artist's concept recently and understand that this "edgy" design was rejected for the E's conservative appearance. Top Honda management missed the young target market as a result, but ended up making an excellent car.


Im suprised no one has customized their E to look just like this one.

booggerg
04-13-2005, 07:17 PM
So you want an off road, rugged mini van that gets 20 miles to the gallon, won't shake you up on the street, looks really tough, has all the do-das costs 20k, :confused:
The fact of the matter is we purchase cars based not what our usal use is, but on what our extreme use is. We need 4 wheel drive 8 times in the life of the car? Better get the 4 wheel drive model. Need to load 4 x 8 sheets of drywall 20 times in 8 years? Buy a truck. Need to tow a trailer 4 times a year? Best get a gas guzzler. Need to drive cross country once a year? Better get a smooth running V6 to handle that 80 MPH trip. done ranting.

Who said none of my wishes for the Element isn't unrealistic? That's why we've got the FJ here to jump on to. :confused: about the point you're trying to make.

The fact of the matter is, you can't categorically make ANY assumption of why anyone buys what he buys. Who is "We"??? You've given what you deem as important in making a vehicle purchase. Don't be going around lecturing other people on what the smart thing to do is.

Nat
04-13-2005, 07:45 PM
I still think a sportier/heavier duty option (engine, towing package, suspension, transmission). Many SUV's already offer this type of choice. Power to weight performance combining the Honda V6 245 h.p. with the 3500 lb. curb weight would make for pretty awesome performance. I'm also going to be adding a boat in the future and will need about 3500 lb. min. towing capacity. Price point is and will always be very important in my decision. I can get a Pilot for $24,900 or the Nissan Xterra for $21,900 with 5000lbs towing, 6 speed tranny awesome Nissan 3.5 245 h.p. V6, AWD. If Honda offered me similar power and ability, they earn my business. Fortunately for the consumer, there is more then one choice. I like Honda but they have to earn my business everytime, period.

PVR
04-13-2005, 08:02 PM
I think you will be surprised, booggerg, how well the E does on the trail if you keep the speed down. Ground clearance limitations aside, the E is a pretty rugged vehicle. I have seen lots of old Civics in northern BC taking a lickin' and keep on tickin' (although they may get pretty rusty after a few years). I took my Suzuki Sidekick a lot of places over 10 years and, despite its tough truck underpinnings, it rattled a lot from day one. The interior fittings were very cheap but held up surprisingly well. For occasional use the E seems like it will handle trails well.

I think Irv's point was that we are all heavily influenced by marketing. Jeep, to pick one example, still insists on "trail rating" all its vehicles despite the fact that 95% or more of them never go offroad (and most of those that do are the short wheelbase Wranglers). Almost all the ads show the 4WDs in some out of the way or exotic spot even though the vast majority are sold to suburban commuters who MAY take them on a gravel road once in a blue moon. A good thing too given the reliability ratings of most of these "off road vehicles". Around here there are large numbers of HUGE pickups - most of them rarely have more than one person in them and are always so shiny and clean that I doubt they ever haul much of anything around.

Sure there is freedom of choice and some people do need the towing capacity or heavy duty options but don't kid yourself into thinking that advertising and consumerism aren't heavy influences.

It will be interesting to see who buys the new FJ. Style will likely rule over substance regardless of the vehicle's capabilities.

ROBSBOX
04-13-2005, 11:23 PM
Man, I agree the specs on the FJ are much better than the E, but the FJ sure as hell is MUCH uglier than my baby ever thought of being....damn! People will be looking for sure....saying, "that f'n car is sure ugly!!" I'll stick with my E. He's been good to me and I love him. Thanks Honda!

TrailNut
04-14-2005, 12:58 PM
06 Toyota FJ Cruiser is not & will not an Element: comparing apples to coconuts

06 Toyota FJ Cruiser may compete with a 05 Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited (Rubicon will likley out perform a FJ n real rough off-road scrambing, but one or two maybe able to sleep in an FJ)

my Element AWD (4WD) 5-speed EX w/Side Air Bag and Fog Lights...barely over $20,250 (actual invoice priced paid new in 2004)...and gets real world 21~22 mpg (my old and compact 00 Wranger Sahara got 8~13 MPG, less than my Titan)

if i buy a 06 Toyota FJ Cruiser than i'd sell my beloved Nissan Titan KC 4wd "Off-Road" truck before i'd sell my Element.

our family's top three (we have two) favorate cars in the world:
Nissan Titan KC 4wd "Off-Road" $28K
Element AWD (4WD) 5-speed EX w/Side Air Bag and Fog Lights $20K
Wrangler Rubicon Unlimited $28K

06 Toyota FJ Cruiser is up for evaluation...

p.s. Element is handsome looking

SweetE
04-27-2005, 09:49 AM
My two cents...

1. Sorry, I can't get past the three windshield wipers on this FJ, similar to the opinion of others. I dislike having to replace two wipers, let alone concerning myself with three. I thought the auto industry was progressing with the one-wiper system...and now we take a step backwards and add a third? I love the front looks of my E much more than the overall front-end of the FJ.

2. I love my E, but have always been imagining how I would redesign the back end without getting rid of the clamshell (so practical). I do quite like the back end of this FJ.

Watchful One
04-27-2005, 10:16 AM
I love my E, but if Toyota can keep the price down I might give it a look.
Having owned Toyotas I find that in general the dealers are very shrewd and gladly mark up a hot product. Also, if I remember, they charge a lot more for packages which often have you buying something you don't want in order to get something you want. Then again, it's been years since I have owned a toyota. My last was a beloved 98 4runner.

wankerklink
04-27-2005, 02:16 PM
According to Motortrend {May '05 issue, pg.26} "Toyota claims the Jeep Wrangler and Hummer H3 as its chief rivals. Well equipped rear drive FJs will be priced in the mid-$20s; well equipped 4x4s will be priced in the upper-$20s". I fail to see how the FJ compares to the E. They are different vehicles in different price structures!

paulj
04-27-2005, 02:37 PM
The online descriptions that appeared right after the auto show gave lower price estimates, with a base around 20K or less. The later print accounts (May issues) tend to give higher estimates.

Just yesterday there were news accounts in which a Toyota executive was worrying that they were selling too many cars in the US, and might risk a political backlash. He speculated that Toyota may need to raise prices to limit their sales, though other Toyota spokesmen downplayed that option.

paulj

Sheniferous
04-27-2005, 02:55 PM
The online descriptions that appeared right after the auto show gave lower price estimates, with a base around 20K or less. The later print accounts (May issues) tend to give higher estimates.

Just yesterday there were news accounts in which a Toyota executive was worrying that they were selling too many cars in the US, and might risk a political backlash. He speculated that Toyota may need to raise prices to limit their sales, though other Toyota spokesmen downplayed that option.

paulj

remember when chevy or dodge or someone said they were going to make a 200hp+ tuner car for under 20k only to have it debut at $19,995 MSRP? yea... $5 less than $20k.

I say whatever the estimates are, be it less than $20k, less than $21k, less than $22k whatever... it'll be $0.01 - $5.00 less than that figure. ;)

nhE
04-27-2005, 03:52 PM
According to Motortrend {May '05 issue, pg.26} "Toyota claims the Jeep Wrangler and Hummer H3 as its chief rivals. Well equipped rear drive FJs will be priced in the mid-$20s; well equipped 4x4s will be priced in the upper-$20s". I fail to see how the FJ compares to the E. They are different vehicles in different price structures!

This does not match up with what Car and Driver and Kelly Blue Book are saying for prices, in fact, Motortrend is the ONLY place I have heard of that is comparing this to an H3. I am taking your word for it (in the USA it is still innocent until proven guilty :)) until I see the page for myself, I will check it out today. I fail to see how these prices would not allow for a comparison of the FJ and the E though. Tell me sir, if the FJ cannot be compared to the E, then what can?? Nothing matches the price of the E exactly, and nothing matches the setup of the E exactly (weird looks, suicide doors, utilitarian interior. However, any intelligent person would agree that the FJ and the E have enough in common to allow for comparison, people who are looking at an E might look at the FJ for the same reasons. Seriously, if you can come up with a list of cars that promise what the E promises and are within 1000 or 2000 dollars of the price of an E, tell me what that car is, because I do not know of any other car that promises utilitarian interior, unique looks, and 4x4, good ground clearance, and Japanese quality. These are the reasons I bought the E, and are the same reasons I will look at the FJ.

And until pricing is confirmed, or Car and Driver or Kelly Blue Book change their pricing estimate, I am going with them, that this will base around $20k.

IRV
04-27-2005, 06:47 PM
When the FJ comes to market, you won't see a stripped down, base price unit. This will be a hot car, and you won't find one under 29k. Just my opinion.
I'll stick to my statement for all the reasons brought up later in this post.
OPTIONS: They'll load this puppy up.
DRIVE TRAIN: I think you'll be pressed to find anything "base".
DEMAND:"Want one? We'll put you on the list. Of course, a grand or two will move you up."

Heck, the price is going up and there still isn't a car!

R11
04-28-2005, 07:14 PM
According to Motortrend {May '05 issue, pg.26} "Toyota claims the Jeep Wrangler and Hummer H3 as its chief rivals. Well equipped rear drive FJs will be priced in the mid-$20s; well equipped 4x4s will be priced in the upper-$20s". I fail to see how the FJ compares to the E. They are different vehicles in different price structures!There you go. Some sanity finally enters the discussion. I remember about eight years ago, Toyota began the design cycle for the MR2 Spyder. Having owned an earlier '85 gen-I MR2 I followed the development with anticipation, ultimately owning one of the first on the road in Portland, Oregon. All through the development Toyota kept saying they wanted to hold the price under 20K to make it "an affordable roadster". When it finally arrived it had an MSRP of just about 24K... That car had no options available that may have potentially raised street prices. Which was good because the dealers here all wanted $5k over MSRP for them anyway (I had to fly to LA to pick one up and drive it back to Portland to get MSRP). But putting the ADM (additional dealer markup) aside, it still came in higher than the earlier "estimates" Toyota put out there to create hype, buzz and initial demand. Several years ago when Nissan started putting out info on the upcoming 350Z they said starting at 25-26K IIRC, but the "track model" with all the goodies they showed and talked about in the advertising ended up being closer to 35-36K I believe. Not sure how many of the bottom of the line base models actually hit the road... The new figures from Motor Trend sound about right to me given all the stuff that is supposedly on the thing in the way of electronics etc. Base 2WD stripper for mid 20's with full boat high power 4WD close to 30K. And if there's enough off road wanna be poseurs waiting for them, possible ADM on top of that at first. Yes, you can compare it to the Element if you want to, but it really looks to be an apples to oranges comparison all the way across the board IMO. It appears to be a different level of vehicle aimed at a different market segment to me.

ron

nhE
04-28-2005, 10:45 PM
anyone who thinks this will base for anything more than a Double Cab Tacoma (which is $21,675) or a base Xterra ($21,000) has the right to think that, but they have no basis for believing it. So no matter what ANYONE believes, it is a fact that this will not base for anything more than $21,000 when this comes out. Now, for the people who keep saying you will not be able to find a base model FJ when they come out, all i can say is "Obviously." This is the case with almost any car, except economy cars. How many people bought a base E, with no options? Almost no one. People talk about the base price of a car because it is a way of comparing car prices without having to list what options they have in common and which ones they do not. Sooo, again, I am not sure where the animosity toward the FJ is coming from, but anyone who thinks it will base for anything near $25,000 clearly has something against this car, enough to try to discourage people from being interested in it by coming up with prices that do not match up with ANY of the competition.

wankerklink
04-29-2005, 08:58 AM
anyone who thinks this will base for anything more than a Double Cab Tacoma (which is $21,675) or a base Xterra ($21,000) has the right to think that, but they have no basis for believing it. So no matter what ANYONE believes, it is a fact that this will not base for anything more than $21,000 when this comes out. Now, for the people who keep saying you will not be able to find a base model FJ when they come out, all i can say is "Obviously." This is the case with almost any car, except economy cars. How many people bought a base E, with no options? Almost no one. People talk about the base price of a car because it is a way of comparing car prices without having to list what options they have in common and which ones they do not. Sooo, again, I am not sure where the animosity toward the FJ is coming from, but anyone who thinks it will base for anything near $25,000 clearly has something against this car, enough to try to discourage people from being interested in it by coming up with prices that do not match up with ANY of the competition.
When people buys cars the are a number of factors that enter into their decision. These include 1.} price---what can I afford or am willing to afford: 2}needs---people carrying, cargo capacity etc.; 3}esthetics-- does it appeal to them; 4} comfort; 5} driveability; 6} reliability; 7} resale value. All of the afore stated are important, but the most important for any responsible purchaser is item #1. If as you state a base FJ is priced at $21000 MSRP,then it costs $3550 more than a base Element{a 20% price differential}. I have nothing against the FJ or any other toyota, in fact I think it's agood looking vehicle. But in my opinion not a competitor of the E.

jurneez
04-29-2005, 09:21 AM
RE: The FJ Cruiser

I really like it, and I would entertain the idea of getting one, but the gas prices hold me at bay. With only getting just over 20 in my E I can't imagine feeding a 6. Looks nice though. Sometimes common sense in the pocket book (gas prices) ranks high with me.
I'll watch this product.
jurn

likecoiledsteel
04-29-2005, 09:45 AM
Regardless to what the FJ will really cost when they come out, it is still not a competitior of the E. They are much different vehicles. I do think that the FJ will be hot when they come out. I also think that Toyota makes excellent vehicles and are the only true Honda rival. However, the title of this thread is "What the E should've been" is inaccurate. The FJ is an offroad vehicle, the E is not and never was designed to be so. The E's AWD is there just to assist when needed on very conservative "off pavement or on pavement" times of need. Its low ground clearance prevents any true offroading.

The stock E will never match the stock FJ in power or offroad ability. However the FJ will never match the E's gas mileage, interior storage or overall versitility IMHO.

The FJ looks like a vehicle I would see driving thru Australia chasing Roo's. A place an E would never go.

paulj
04-29-2005, 12:24 PM
The FJ will a competitor to the Element - on Tom and Ray's Ugly car list :)

wankerklink
04-29-2005, 12:31 PM
Regardless to what the FJ will really cost when they come out, it is still not a competitior of the E. They are much different vehicles. I do think that the FJ will be hot when they come out. I also think that Toyota makes excellent vehicles and are the only true Honda rival. However, the title of this thread is "What the E should've been" is inaccurate. The FJ is an offroad vehicle, the E is not and never was designed to be so. The E's AWD is there just to assist when needed on very conservative "off pavement or on pavement" times of need. Its low ground clearance prevents any true offroading.

The stock E will never match the stock FJ in power or offroad ability. However the FJ will never match the E's gas mileage, interior storage or overall versitility IMHO.

The FJ looks like a vehicle I would see driving thru Australia chasing Roo's. A place an E would never go.
Another valid explanation why the E and FJ are not competitors----Bravo!!

R11
04-29-2005, 07:02 PM
Sooo, again, I am not sure where the animosity toward the FJ is coming from, but anyone who thinks it will base for anything near $25,000 clearly has something against this car, enough to try to discourage people from being interested in it by coming up with prices that do not match up with ANY of the competition.You sound awfully defensive. Animosity? Just because people have a different idea of what the FJ will end up costing that means they have something against the vehicle? Or that it means they are trying to discourage people from buying one? C'mon. My motto is always expect the worst and hope for the best. Keeps the disappointments to a minimum that way.

The FJ will a competitor to the Element - on Tom and Ray's Ugly car list I think you're right there. (note to nhE: see my post in the T&R ugly car thread - this doesn't mean I think it's really ugly)

ron

Injun Jim
04-29-2005, 08:16 PM
the E and only the E!
after i bought mine i gave my F150, 4X4 off road package Lariat to my wife.

i do not have the ground clearance that i used to but, the E is awesome.

JRiver
07-04-2005, 01:45 AM
The E and FJ are very different vehicles for the most part.
The FJ is much more of a serious Off-Road SUV.
The XTerra and Jeep Liberty are more in the same class and competitors for the FJ. The recent 4 Runner's have taken an upscale, pricy journey in recent years, thus the gap, Toyota needs to fill.

From what I've heard from my local Toyota dealer, the new Toyota FJ Cruiser will cost $27k - $35 k with both 2wd and 4wd offered. Most will be loaded versions and it will be a hot seller with the Off road 4x4 community.

I'd likely opt for a Tacoma double cab 4x4 with the longbed and a camper shell for more utility, less cost, better for camping and a better gear hauler, but a less capable 4x4 due to the longer wheelbase primarily.
Same 4.0 liter V6 as the Tacoma

I'm looking forward to experiencing the FJ :)

Imamonkey
07-04-2005, 02:12 AM
I don't know anything about the FJ cruiser, but if it is what you say it is, then I do not agree that it is what the E should've been. In fact, if the Element had been like this FJ Cruiser, I would not have bought the Element. I am glad the Element has a four-cylinder. I do not want it for serious off-roading. I definitely would not want it to be based on a truck chassis.

zintradi
07-18-2005, 03:22 PM
Heres my take

Limited rear side view
Limited rear view
Spare mounted on truck has never been a plus in my books
3 wipers? what for?
Wind noise from roof visor
Those tires = road noise
I drive in the city, the rugged would only be for looks

I'm still going to the dealership when it comes out though.

I have a tacoma and toyota's will always have wind and road noise.
the spare mounted on back is easier to access when you're on the trail
if you drive in the city, stick with the element, or get the ridgeline

IRV
09-30-2005, 11:55 PM
When the FJ comes to market, you won't see a stripped down, base price unit. This will be a hot car, and you won't find one under 29k. Just my opinion.
And here we are again, the FJ Cruiser. (Hope I spelled okay)

Hymera Bob
02-04-2007, 05:00 PM
There is only enough rear leg room for a small child in the FJ. I would also point out that the 20k price tag is for a bare bones 2 wheel drive. If you equip the FJ with comparable equipment to an ex awd auto and you are up to 30k. Thats a lot of scratch in my neighborhood! Also it requires premium fuel and although it is rated for 21 mpg highway, all of the owners I have talked to are getting about 17 in the 4wd version. Don't get me wrong I love the looks of the FJ but looks are all it has going for it. I actualy looked at the FJ before I discovered the E and the Honda was just a way more versitle and affordable vehicle for our needs.

sooperedd
02-05-2007, 10:51 AM
There is only enough rear leg room for a small child in the FJ. I would also point out that the 20k price tag is for a bare bones 2 wheel drive. If you equip the FJ with comparable equipment to an ex awd auto and you are up to 30k. Thats a lot of scratch in my neighborhood! Also it requires premium fuel and although it is rated for 21 mpg highway, all of the owners I have talked to are getting about 17 in the 4wd version. Don't get me wrong I love the looks of the FJ but looks are all it has going for it. I actualy looked at the FJ before I discovered the E and the Honda was just a way more versitle and affordable vehicle for our needs.

Ditto... I was eyeballin' the FJ and I am now looking at an Element for all the reasons you mentioned.

dparrothead1
02-05-2007, 11:57 AM
After reading all the road test,,,,,it turns out the FJ isn't all that it was advertised......maybe this post should be renamed "The Element, What The FJ Could Have Been"???????

Miss Ellie & Co.
02-05-2007, 12:57 PM
Why does the FJ require premium fuel?
What's that all about anyway?
Premium fuel in a truck?
Why did Toyota decide that was the way to go?
I don't get it.

paulj
02-05-2007, 01:11 PM
I think the use of premium fuel in FJ is a matter of getting the full rated HP. It has been discussed on FJ forums. Regular can be used if needed. But the slightly higher power they can get with premium looks good on paper.

paulj

texaselement
02-05-2007, 01:12 PM
The engine's compression ratio (& boost, if applicable) determines what octane level of fuel it needs.
If Toyota is recommending premium fuel, it's because the engine in the FJ has a high compression ratio (it is 10.0 compared to our E's 9.7).

If you use a less-than recommended octane level, the car will still run, but it can seriously damage the engine through detonation and other bad mechanical things.

On the other hand, using a higher octane gas than what your needs will not make it run better, as some people assume. They're just wasting their money.

http://theserviceadvisor.com/octane.htm

flakita
02-05-2007, 01:56 PM
After reading all the road test,,,,,it turns out the FJ isn't all that it was advertised......maybe this post should be renamed "The Element, What The FJ Could Have Been"???????



It's nice when people take the words right outta your mouth...I could'nt agree more.

I bought my Element...cause umm...I wanted a " Honda Element" it offers me so much room,more then i have seen ,and I looked at many vehicles...Unless of course I wanted to pay an arm and leg and perhaps an eyeball for an expedition or Navigator or Escalade that are all over rated!

paulj
02-05-2007, 02:35 PM
Here's a post that quotes the FJ manual
http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forums/56961-post29.html
" Regular Unleaded fuel with a minimum octane rating of 87 is acceptable"

If the octane is too low you get pinging, ignition of the fuel before the spark. But with modern engine controls, the timing of the spark can be adjusted to minimize ping with lower octane fuel.

Premium gas is usually recommended/required with high compression, but I haven't been able to find a clear definition of what constitutes high compression, especially with modern engines. 10:1 doesn't seem that much higher than 9.7:1. The Ridgeline is a 10.0:1 ratio also.

paulj

texaselement
02-05-2007, 10:05 PM
Here’s a couple good articles to read up on the subject when you get a minute.
Keep in mind that the air/fuel ratio and altitude have an effect on what octane is needed (for instance, the higher altitude you are, the lower octane gas is needed).

http://dnr.louisiana.gov/sec/execdiv/techasmt/ecep/trans/b/b.htm

http://www.daytona-sensors.com/tech_tuning.html

Also, it depends on what gas is available in your area. In Kansas, you typically find 87-89-91 octane gas at the pump, whereas here in Texas, the range is 89-91-93 everywhere.

hownowcb
02-05-2007, 10:12 PM
There are already a million gasoline threads, texaselement, and this isn't one of them. This thread is the "What a silly pile of doggy doo the FJ Cruiser is". :-?

texaselement
02-06-2007, 12:55 PM
We were talking about the FJ's compression ratio, and the reason why Toyota recommends only premium fuel in it. I was simply providing some info that other members may find helpful, since there were questions asked about octane levels and such.

Geez, calm down.

Espina
02-08-2007, 10:44 PM
...I was getting the alarm for our Element installed at the dealership today and I noticed this development prototype foto under the glass by the complimentary coffee...

...I have to admit, w/ the large tires and white roof it does look pretty FJ like...

SDCEP3
03-10-2007, 02:50 PM
I don't really think that the Element and FJ are comparable. One is a truck and the other is a car...

paulj
03-10-2007, 03:16 PM
One is a truck and the other is a car...

which is which?
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21549

If you are driving about town, or down the highway, it really doesn't matter how a vehicle is pigeonholed - that is, unless you are driving a boulevard or parkway where trucks are not allowed.

paulj

Hondamade4dogs
03-10-2007, 03:32 PM
Hey i just completed the Toyota Off Road Challenge at the OKC Auto Show. Those Toyota's drive nice and can do amaziing things, but for $34,000..Wow...This is me driving around the course :-)

steve w
03-10-2007, 04:14 PM
These seem to be two very different vehicles that were never meant to be direct comparisons. I don't do any rough stuff or off-roading and am a happy E driver :) .

tango
03-10-2007, 04:53 PM
Every review I have read says the FJ is awesome off-road - not so awesome on the highway. Our neighbor just had friends over and one guy had a brand new silver (boring color) FJ still dealer tagged - so I asked - he paid over $37K for his. And he was hauling people around and said it was his 1st time for people in the back and it was in his words "like stuffin 'em in a too small box". No matter where the front seat people put their seats, the rear passengers knees were hitting the back of their seats. He said it rides "kinds rough" too - but he loves the sound it makes and the mileage (and premium gas) make it, in his words" kinda a gas hog. He is, however, happy with his - although he doesn't intend to off road (but bought all the off-road brag accessories) - he is a middle aged single man and feels that "women love it" and are impressed with it. I think THAT factor has a lot to do with sales of the FJ.

So he bought it and he will never go off road with it, it isn't very comfortable and rides rough and the mileage and gas costs aren't very good, and it cost $37K --- BUT the women like it and it sounds really throaty and macho. Ok then.

Hondamade4dogs
03-10-2007, 05:28 PM
The only thing I could compare with are the Suicide doors, the rubber floor and there both oddly shaped :) But other than that, two completely different trucks !:)

IRV
03-10-2007, 05:53 PM
This came from the FJ site.:rolleyes:


http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/v2/play.php?id=11849

ann54
03-10-2007, 07:58 PM
There was an FJ on the used SAAB car lot in Shadyside. It looks awfully cramped inside.

texaselement
03-10-2007, 08:01 PM
When I was at the Toyota dealership before I bought our SC, even the salesman said that he's heard complaints about the rear seat passenger room.

Everyone that's went for a ride in my E (in the back) love the room and the stadium style seating. Every single person that's ridden in the back has complimented on the room back there.

ann54
03-10-2007, 08:06 PM
When I was at the Toyota dealership before I bought our SC, even the salesman said that he's heard complaints about the rear seat passenger room.

Everyone that's went for a ride in my E (in the back) love the room and the stadium style seating. Every single person that's ridden in the back has complimented on the room back there.


Yep, everyone really likes the fact that you sit up high in the rear seats.

monkious
03-10-2007, 10:47 PM
a box of oranges and a crate of apples

tango
03-11-2007, 01:02 AM
Holy smokes! 18 pages on a vehicle we all "like to hate" I think the FJ is in the running for the #1 troll topic from the EOC:lol:

Oh, I don't hate the FJ, if I had need of a REAL 4WD vehicle for just the two of us I would look - but as it stands right now, I much prefer the 4 Runner body style. I just don't care for the Tonka Truck, oddly squared off, chopped off looking lines on the FJ. It looks like a cartoon style 4WD SUV to me. Just because I would probably NOT buy that particular body style doesn't mean I "hate" it though.

I love the square lines of the E, but it flows. No place looks like they just chopped it off - it rolls gently down into the breaks, it's not "designed-by-axe" looking like the FJ. When I look at the FJ it just feels like they stuck together some assorted parts from several models in an oddly disjointed way and then chopped off what didn't fit right with a hatchet. I guess it gives me a feeling of discord to look at it. And it's a very aggresive, sort of military feeling vehicle too - it does not make me feel "happy" to look at it like the E does. But it's interesting, different and I certainly don't hate it. The old Scion xb I almost hate, but it has a lot to do with it's overall wimpiness And cheap feel - not so much how it looks. At least the FJ is very true to it's rugged, 4WD appearance and does it's off-road "job" very well.

I guess to me the E is "Peace And Love" and the FJ is "Hunt and Attack".

Rocket Dog
03-11-2007, 06:04 PM
I like the original FJ45 Toyota Land Cruiser - the pickup truck style vehicle. I guess they only sold them in numbers in Canada or Australia. I see them on ebay once in awhile but they are either rusted out or pricey.

29911

gisele
03-11-2007, 06:20 PM
Edmunds.com take on the FJ Cruiser when it was viewed at the 2005 Chicago Auto Show:

What's Edmunds' Take?
Forget the FJ's link to the past, consider its link to the present. Look closely and it's essentially a Honda Element with a taller suspension, V6 power and serious off-road hardware. So why is the FJ so much more appealing than the Honda? It's all in the details. — Ed Hellwig

http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/104508/page004.html

Farther
03-11-2007, 06:27 PM
I once was the proud owner of a brand new white '77 FJ40. Bought it from the Toyota dealer in Ocala, FL for $4000. Bought it in March of '77 and rolled it in October of '77. My then future and current and only wife also had a blue one. Purchased for $4000 and sold for $5000 after 1&1/2 years. Our only complaint was fuel mileage. I could get no more than 12 mph and she could get no more than 15 mph. We took hers on the honeymoon camping in the Montana Bitter Root Mountains in March. A good time was had by all.:-D

paulj
03-11-2007, 07:06 PM
Edmunds.com take on the FJ Cruiser when it was viewed at the 2005 Chicago Auto Show:


http://blogs.edmunds.com/roadtests/category/cat.2007ToyotaFJCruiser

Based on the long term tests, the FJC still has problems stopping if stopping or turning if conditions are icy. In fact its off-road features can be a negative in those conditions if they give the driver too much confidence.

Visibility gets a number comments as well.

paulj

hownowcb
03-13-2007, 10:18 PM
When I look at the FJ it just feels like they stuck together some assorted parts from several models in an oddly disjointed way and then chopped off what didn't fit right with a hatchet. I guess it gives me a feeling of discord to look at it.
I could not have said that better myself, tango! Honest! :rolleyes:

Sure, I find my eyes drawn easily to the FJ, but only in the same way human nature makes people stare at horrible traffic accidents! :twisted:

Grannysmuncher
03-16-2007, 10:12 PM
I think that two words sum up the FJ in my eyes:

Hot garbage.

The Element is better, if for no other reason than it doesn't look like someone smashed a Hummer and VW Bus together.

Ranger
03-22-2007, 06:52 PM
Edmunds.com take on the FJ Cruiser when it was viewed at the 2005 Chicago Auto Show:

What's Edmunds' Take?
Forget the FJ's link to the past, consider its link to the present. Look closely and it's essentially a Honda Element with a taller suspension, V6 power and serious off-road hardware. So why is the FJ so much more appealing than the Honda? It's all in the details. — Ed Hellwig

http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/104508/page004.html

In the details, huh?
He obviously didn't look close enough.

Once you option the thing out, the ones with serious offroad hardware are upwards of 30 grand or more.
Plus the back seat is worthless and it requires premium fuel.

Besides that, I just paid $3.15 a gallon for regular; he can take all 239 horses of that premium-sipping V-6 and shove 'em right up his @$$!

:evil:

Twilightzero
03-23-2007, 03:12 PM
Ok, I'll admit, I went to the Toyota dealer and looked at the FJ when I was in the market for my current E. Some things I noticed that really turned me off:

1) You think the Element has bad visibility? Holy **** you can barely see out the FJ!

2) Back seat room sux, as has been mentioned many times before.

3) BAD folding seats, old style. With them folded down, you get very bad room in the back comparatively.

4) I really didn't like the back end covering material. Very slippery plastic, sounds hollow. Quite unstable with the seats down, couldn't try to mount anything on it.

5) Takes premium. Enough said on that already.

6) I just didn't like the "look & feel" of it. Felt too plastic-y, kind of like an H2.

In the end, I decided to get another E and have been happy about it every day. Sure, if I needed to go serious offroading, I would get something like a CJ or FJ to go, but what tiny, tiny, tiny percentage of Americans actually use their off-road vehicles for off-roading? I even do some, and the E takes it like a champ.

Besides, where would you mount a disco ball in an FJ? :confused:

joeBoxer
03-23-2007, 03:57 PM
Hey they are BOTH good. Loved both my Elements and would consider another one and also love my FJ. It doesn't have to be either/or. :)

Each has its positives and negatives!

Twilightzero
03-23-2007, 07:42 PM
So I take it you didn't like it?:-P Thats why you bought an E , a completely different vehicle:cool:

Actually I was looking at the FJ while shopping for my SECOND E ;-) Was curious what I could get that's similar with a bit more power and ruggedness. Turns out the FJ and the E were completely different so I went back to the E and have been incredibly happy with my new baby :-D

hownowcb
03-23-2007, 09:42 PM
Twilightzero is good-to-go, FJ-wise. joeBoxer still has a few sessions left in rehab, but he's a good guy, too! :cool:

fas2go
03-25-2007, 01:30 AM
If you like the FJ you should buy one. However, this is the EOC not FJOC. We at the EOC are passionate about our E's. Obviously, you enjoy yours too.

EthanFox
06-21-2007, 07:29 PM
We looked at the FJ while shopping for a new vehicle (pre-E ownership). I did like the FJ, but the requirement for premium fuel took it completely out of the running. I couldn't believe ANY company would even consider making a car that required premium fuel with gas prices as they are!

It's priced well - in the $20k's, but you'll be paying MUCH MUCH more than that at the gas pump. It's an insult, really.

We opted for the E (last December) and are die-hard E owners now. I'm glad the FJ required premium fuel - not sure I'd be as happy with it had I got one.

paulj
06-21-2007, 08:35 PM
The qualified statement from Toyota is that premium is required for maximum performance (hp as in the specs) but that the car runs fine on regular. FJ forums discuss this.

paulj

hiker chick
06-24-2007, 04:17 PM
I don't usually follow this FJ discussion and am surprised to see that it's still going on to this degree. I just happen to be in possession of the July Automobile magazine and there is a one-year follow up on the FJ so for those who follow this discussion, here are some excerpts. Overall, the article was quite positive on the FJ, even including the styling of it. The usual negatives are cited. I'd type more positives but don't care that much to further tire my fingers. :cool:

half of all two-wheel models have been bought by women
"It's the Japanese Hummer with a piquant hint of VAZ/GAZ [Russian car companies]"
"Everyone who drove the FJ commented on the big blind spot at the rear and on the fact that you have to lean forward and tilt your head to the side to see traffic lights..."
"Rear-seat accommodations aren't great for adults, and the view of the outside world from those seats is impeded..."
"... the FJ is particularly susceptible to crosswinds."
"...many drivers commented about excessive engine noise at highway cruising speeds."
"...upright windshield, which was susceptible to stone chips. We had the windshield replaced twice in the course of our year..."
"... the vast majority of trucks in the FJ's segment are outright dullards... this Toyota has more personality and a greater sense of fun than any of them."

paulj
06-24-2007, 05:01 PM
and on my recent 3 wk trip on Oregon backroads, I did not see a single dirty FJ. I did see a few clean ones in the more touristy areas around Bend and Mt Hood.

paulj

Twilightzero
06-26-2007, 02:41 PM
I saw a TON of FJ's in Vegas over the last weekend. Then again I saw a ton of everything there...:D

eleMentalCase
06-26-2007, 05:45 PM
I'm actually coming to this party a year late obviously!

But had to throw in my 2 cents. I was around for the original FJ in the 1960's; wanted one bad- test drove one 2 or 3 times and just couldn't come up with the money to buy one. I STILL think they're awesome (along with the original Land Rovers from England- but that's another story) and drool at least once a week whenever I see a fully-restored 1960's FJ around town. (I've talked to the guy and he has more than $20K invested, but it's SO MUCH cooler than the new FJ!)

But I digress...

When the FJ was prototyped I swore I'd own one, and when they came out I rushed to test-drive one. From the front- SPECTACULAR looks. From the rear- HIDEOUS looks. From the side- so-so looks.

Can't see diddley-squat out of the sides or rear-quarters, the tail-lights look like they came off a vehicle from France?!?! Gas mileage is terrible and of course the dealers all wanted top-gouge prices for them. Now they're sitting around on lots but that's the story of the fickle America consumer. Gotta have it today- don't care tomorrow.

Anyway... I drove past a LOT full of FJ's yesterday to buy my SC and couldn't be happier.

But then that's what's great about America, right? You pays your money and you makes your choices!!