Tire Pyrometer/Tire Pressure [Archive] - Honda Element Owners Club Forum

: Tire Pyrometer/Tire Pressure


dblair
06-17-2005, 03:39 PM
There have been quite a few posts stating but-dyno opinions that the recommended tire pressures for at least the stock tires are too low. In motor raceing a tire pyrometer is used to determine the most effective tire pressures as well as alignment settings for particular tracks. I have an old pyrometer and thought it might be interesting to see what I can find out. Oh yeah, the pyrometer measures heat in the tire tread.

For tire pressures the idea is that underinflation will cause the center of the tire to run cooler than the outside edges while overinflation will cause the center to run hotter. For this to work the suspension alignment has to be correct as a lot of negative camber or toe-in will skew the results.

I have about a half hour commute, mostly on the freeway, carpool lane so not much stop and go. This should get the tires warmed up enough to get some meaningful results. Since I will be running the same pressure in both front tires and another in both rears I average the readings for the front inside, middle and outside and the same for the rears. That allows for turning more in one direction than another which would result in uneven readings side to side.

I started this week using the recommended 32# front and 34# rear. The results confirm our but-dynos. I measured 3 times this week and came up with close to 6 degrees cooler in the center of both front and rear. Thats a lot. Since the heat differential was about the same in front as in the rear I'll keep the 2 lb. rear bias and try 34-36 next week. I'm adjusting pressure first thing in the morning before driveing so the pressures should be stabilized after sitting the night.

Comments? Ideas?

James_in_Baltimore
06-17-2005, 04:15 PM
Very cool. I amd very interested in hearing what psi you end up at. I have been running at 34/36 just because 32/34 seemed way to squishy.

wmk7479
06-17-2005, 04:20 PM
I'm with you... I've been running 35/37 for all 3000 miles on mine.

boxed up
06-17-2005, 08:39 PM
i run 34/36 also and the outside fronts are wearing. honda does things for comfort. my sisters crv says 28psi for f/r.

Havenview
06-17-2005, 09:03 PM
What a great idea- I'm going to increase my tire pressure as I monitor your results. I accidentally put to much in the tires last month and it did seem to ride better.

trickyvick
06-17-2005, 09:04 PM
i run 34/36 also and the outside fronts are wearing. honda does things for comfort. my sisters crv says 28psi for f/r.

and that is how Ford Exploders roll over!

Genom
06-17-2005, 09:20 PM
I currently have mine at 36/38 front/rear.

All this tire inflation stuff makes me think of an A/C guy I know who, in a pinch, would inflate his leaking service van's tires with R22 refrigerant:shock:

spdrcr5
06-17-2005, 10:06 PM
If you truly want to make this somewhat scientific you should do the following...

1. Note the outside temperature before you leave and when you arrive.

2. Don't increase the temp 2# at a time... increase it 0.5#. Believe it or not 0.5# can make a HUGE difference in how a vehicle handles/performs.

3. Are you writing down all 3 temps for each tire? You say the center is 6* lower on average. Are the inner and outer the same temp within 2*?

4. How soon after you park are you getting out and checking the tire temps? Remember the tires begin to cool down immediately and is the reason why race teams have 4 people checking the tires as soon as the car comes to a stop. This is how we did it and I raced as an amateur. We would get 4 friends to check our tires and as soon as we came off the track so the measurement was accurate.

5. Are you making not of your beginning and ending tire pressures in all 4 tires on each trip?

6. How much are your tires heating up during your 30 minute commute?

Sorry for asking so many questions. I get into this stuff. :) Keep up the good work and keep us informed.

WartHog
06-17-2005, 10:55 PM
Just to be precise about it, TrickyVic, having the tires overinflated did not *cause* Explorers to roll over.

It was having the tires under-inflated which was used to *hide* the fact that Explorers like to lay on their sides. And that is what caused the tires to explode -- with the same end result.

boxed up
06-17-2005, 11:11 PM
correct warthog

trickyvick
06-17-2005, 11:16 PM
Just to be precise about it, TrickyVic, having the tires overinflated did not *cause* Explorers to roll over.

It was having the tires under-inflated which was used to *hide* the fact that Explorers like to lay on their sides. And that is what caused the tires to explode -- with the same end result.

Interesting ThwartHog......and I totally agree, whereas I may have not been as specific as you were, I assumed (I know that was where I messed up) that you already knew that and I was merely pointing out the problem with the 28 psi in the CRV.

Way to jump on the bandwagon!!!

Oh...and in case you were wondering, the username is trickyvicK

G

trickyvick
06-17-2005, 11:25 PM
Comments? Ideas?

I really appreciate you taking the time to perform this data collection. I have run my tires at 42 psi from the time I purchased the vehicle. It is my opinion that the manufacturer of the tire knows more than the vehicle manufacturer. And by the way, my tires have 22,000 miles on them and I expect 35k to 40k before the first change.

Thanks again and keep us posted.

G

trickyvick
06-17-2005, 11:34 PM
I currently have mine at 36/38 front/rear.

All this tire inflation stuff makes me think of an A/C guy I know who, in a pinch, would inflate his leaking service van's tires with R22 refrigerant:shock:

I have a cold air tank that I use on my Toyota when I come off of the trail....maybe I should fill mine with some CO2 and see if they will perform differently???

:roll: :grin: :roll:

boxed up
06-17-2005, 11:40 PM
i have never had my tires stock pressure. i would normally have them bumped up to 40psi like trickyvick states but since i lowered my e i didnt want to jump everything.

spdrcr5
06-18-2005, 07:10 AM
I really appreciate you taking the time to perform this data collection. I have run my tires at 42 psi from the time I purchased the vehicle. It is my opinion that the manufacturer of the tire knows more than the vehicle manufacturer. And by the way, my tires have 22,000 miles on them and I expect 35k to 40k before the first change.

Thanks again and keep us posted.

G

If you believe that... then why are you running your tires at 42psi? That is the MAX pressure that is ONLY recommended when driving with a fully loaded vehicle not to be used all the time.

As for your statement about Goodyear knowing more about the tire itself than Honda that is partially correct. Honda knows more about how the tire will perform, react, handle, etc for this particular vehicle. Goodyear knows the general information on the tire itself.

There are a variety of reasons as to why Honda chose the air pressures it chose as a recommendation. One of them is comfort, which all manufacturers take into consideration. Another one is mpg, safety, handling, braking and also a recommendation from the tire manufacturer.

Using higher pressures as you are doing is a safety issue and really should not be used. Over or underinflating a tire is a tire failure waiting to happen. You can argue that "I have not had any problem". I would then then state that might be true... but when you do; expect a nice blow out when you least expect it. The tire will not give any warnings, it will just let go.

wankerklink
06-18-2005, 07:45 AM
It basically comes down to this Question: who do you believe? I have a 2003 GMC 1500HD pickup. The truck is equipped with 245x75R16 E tires rated at 80lbs max pressure. GM recommends tire pressure of 80psi rear and 50psi front. Why such great diparity front to back? I contacted GMC customer service--usual runarounds--call you back etc.--final answer--because that's what our engineers recommend. Contacted several bridgestone dealers who on average recommended running 65-80psi in the rears, depending on load and 65psi in the fronts. I run 80psi in the rears and 60psi in the fronts all the time. IMO it's a crapshoot--check tire wear, pressure, rotate etc and go from there.

trickyvick
06-18-2005, 10:43 AM
If you believe that... then why are you running your tires at 42psi? That is the MAX pressure that is ONLY recommended when driving with a fully loaded vehicle not to be used all the time.

Please show me on the attached picture where it says you have to be carrying the max load to use the max pressure? Does it say MAX PRESSURE ONLY TO BE USED AT THIS LOAD?

http://www.clocklaw.com/element/Goodyear%20Tire%20rating.jpg

As for your statement about Goodyear knowing more about the tire itself than Honda that is partially correct. Honda knows more about how the tire will perform, react, handle, etc for this particular vehicle. Goodyear knows the general information on the tire itself.

There are a variety of reasons as to why Honda chose the air pressures it chose as a recommendation. One of them is comfort, which all manufacturers take into consideration. Another one is mpg, safety, handling, braking and also a recommendation from the tire manufacturer.

True. But Honda is out to sell vehicles.....and if they make a small adjustment to improve comfort, that does not mean it is necessarily an improvement on the handling, durability, and safety (including braking) of the vehicle.

Using higher pressures as you are doing is a safety issue and really should not be used. Over or under inflating a tire is a tire failure waiting to happen. You can argue that "I have not had any problem". I would then then state that might be true... but when you do; expect a nice blow out when you least expect it. The tire will not give any warnings, it will just let go.

Ok. Bottom line is that the tires state there is a maximum pressure rating of 44 psi. As you can see in my earlier posts, I am running them at 42 psi which does not exceed the maximum.

http://www.clocklaw.com/element/Goodyear%20Tire.jpg

I will concede, however that the tire does state that "Tire Failure due to UNDERINFLATION/OVERLOADING/DAMAGE - follow owners manual and tire placard in vehicle. The owner's manual states that 32/34 is RECOMMENDED TIRE PRESSURES FOR NORMAL DRIVING.

I find it interesting that the tire does not mention that running the tires at 2 psi below the indicated maximum is considered overinflation.

You make up your own mind...and good luck with your decision, as for me I think I am going to follow the tire warning and follow the owner's manual.

spdrcr5
06-18-2005, 11:00 AM
Vick, you are contradicting yourself in your post...

One second you say you are going to run 42, the next you will say you will go y what the tire says then you will say you will go by what the manual says. So, are you sticking with the 42? Going to drop it 10psi?

When the sidewall say:

Max Load 775 kg (1709 LBS) MAX PRESS. 300 kPa (44 PSI)

What it is saying is the following:

When you put a maximum load of 1,709 lbs/tire then the tire needs to be inflated to 44 psi in order to properly handle that weight.

Go to this article (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/tirespecskey.jsp)on TireRack and it will explain proper inflation in terms of load for you.

There are many articles all over the place that talk about overinflating a tire and how dangerous it can be. There are reasons why compromises are made in various things and running lower pressures will not only make the tires last longer because the centers won't wear out as fast, but the vehicle will handle much better, brake safer and not bounce over bumps in the road which can cause loss of control of the vehicle.

But if you want to use 42psi... go right ahead...

trickyvick
06-18-2005, 02:49 PM
Vick, you are contradicting yourself in your post...

One second you say you are going to run 42, the next you will say you will go y what the tire says then you will say you will go by what the manual says. So, are you sticking with the 42? Going to drop it 10psi?

As I said in my post....I am going to "go with what the tire says" and be sure that I do not exceed 44 psi....again, the manual says that 32/34 is "Recommended Tire Pressures for Normal Driving"....it is a recommendation, not an "if you vary from this you will have a tire failure".

When the sidewall say:

Max Load 775 kg (1709 LBS) MAX PRESS. 300 kPa (44 PSI)

What it is saying is the following:

When you put a maximum load of 1,709 lbs/tire then the tire needs to be inflated to 44 psi in order to properly handle that weight.

ok, so if I carry 1,378 lbs/tire, what is my MAX tire pressure????? 44 psi????

Go to this article (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/tirespecskey.jsp)on TireRack and it will explain proper inflation in terms of load for you.

There are many articles all over the place that talk about over inflating a tire and how dangerous it can be. There are reasons why compromises are made in various things and running lower pressures will not only make the tires last longer because the centers won't wear out as fast, but the vehicle will handle much better, brake safer and not bounce over bumps in the road which can cause loss of control of the vehicle.

Again....if I run up to 44 psi and not OVER 44 psi, I am not over inflating the tires but I guess I should be worried about premature strut fatigue due to the added bounciness.

But if you want to use 42psi... go right ahead...

Hey, my 1993 Toyota Pickup manual states that I should run 26/29 if I am driving less than 75 mph and 29/32 if I am driving at speeds above 75 mph I guess I should install auto-inflaters that will increase the pressure when I exceed 75 mph so that I am in complyance with the manual.

BTW, typically, I run them at 12 psi off road and 42 psi on road, but don't worry...the MAX Pressure for these tires is 50 psi.

spdrcr5
06-18-2005, 05:43 PM
The max on my Nokian's says 51 psi but I won't be running them at 49...

trickyvick
06-18-2005, 07:13 PM
The max on my Nokian's says 51 psi but I won't be running them at 49...

My only question is....are you running them at 32/34 or something different. And either way, it is your decision.

Gadjet
06-19-2005, 10:29 PM
I use the "SMART TIRE" with the remote display.

trickyvick
06-19-2005, 10:38 PM
I use the "SMART TIRE" with the remote display.
Now that looks interesting.....please explain how it works :shock:

Gadjet
06-19-2005, 11:00 PM
I would be happy to explain....Each wheel(Rim) has a transmitter mounted to it(mounts to the inside of the rim with a large stainless clamp(looks like a very large hose clamp) The display is wired to a receiver that receives the information from each wheel.Each tire can be programmed with a max and min tire pressure..and max and min heat temp settings.When the vehicle is moved,the transmitters will power up and relay information to the display.When the the vehicle is parked and not moved for 10 minutes,the transmitters will power down and go into sleep mode.When driving..if any tire reaches a preset "Warning" pressure to high or low/temp to high..it will flash the red light and beep!!!!! I really like this "Gadjet" and it works great.

spdrcr5
06-19-2005, 11:58 PM
My only question is....are you running them at 32/34 or something different. And either way, it is your decision.

I am running them at 32.5-33(F) depending on conditions and 34-35(R) depending on conditions. Normally I leave them at 32.5(F) and 34.5(R). It took me a little over a month to settle on these pressures.

ramblerdan
06-20-2005, 11:26 AM
I use the "SMART TIRE" with the remote display.
Cool beans. More at smartire.com (http://www.smartire.com/products/passenger/) and Tire Rack (http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/smartire/smartire2.jsp)

dblair
06-20-2005, 04:02 PM
Had busy weekend so I haven't been on line. In response to spdrcr5:

1. I have been recording inside,middle and outside temps. I then average
the three readings for fronts and rears. I thought that would be the best
way to avoid readings biased by more right turns than left etc.

2. You're right about the .5 of course but I haven't had a guage that will do
.5 since my kids got ahold of my old dragger (sp?).

3. I'm not recording weather temps but I am testing to and from work 2-3
days for each pressure setting. You're right again about the effect but
I rationalize that most of us don't vary our pressure with the weather. I
don't think it's possible to come up with a setting for all occasions so I'm
trying to provide useful information to anyone interested. Based on
varibles in sidewall stiffness I expect even a different tire will ask for
different pressure. (By the way I'm planning on Nokian's when the
stockers wear out. I'm interested in any comments you may have.)

4. I don't have the luxury of a pit crew so I roll down both windows and
holler numbers to my wife (we work together) who writes them down.
Luckily she's used to my strange behavior by now!

5. I haven't been recording ending (hot) tire pressure. I don't have a reason
other than we don't adjust pressure hot so I'm not sure what to do with
the information. I would be interesting though.

6. My pyrometer is an old analog version and since I was interested in
comparisons between readings rather than the value itself I haven't been
real careful with the initial calibration. I've been getting readings in the
70 to 85 degree range when the outside temp is around 50-55. The
readings on the inside are 2.5 to 5 degrees hotter than the outside.
What I'm looking for is center readings between the two.

Still interested in comments/suggestions. Hope to have more results
Wednesday.

dblair
06-22-2005, 11:04 AM
Yesterday (Tues. Readings at 34 & 36) showed only a slight improvement,
5 to 5.5 degrees cooler as opposed to 6 so I ncreased to 36 & 38. This
morning I got an improvement in the rear to about 3 degrees cooler with the
front showing more like 4.5 to 5. This is starting to look like Honda had other factors in mind when they set the recommendations.

I'm wondering if the idea is to increase understeer. I don't have the back seats in the E. All the measurements have been taken with 2 passengers however. I usually don't corner very aggressively in the Element,
so I haven't paid much attention to how it acts in this regard.

I have a 4 wheel drive, does anyone have any comments on the E's understeer?

MTP
06-22-2005, 12:24 PM
That smarttire system looks really interesting. I wouldn't mind getting one for my E.
However, what happens when you rotate you tires? Do you have to change the transmitters or just mental remember where the color bands have been moved to?

Do you think a Honda dealer would install them or would it be best to go to a tire dealership (ie...Kramar, Firestone, etc.....)?

AZ0
07-06-2005, 11:34 AM
Hello All,
There has been a lot of discussion around this forum, many threads, concerning under and over inflating tires. Here in the desert at least, it seems that underinflation is the most haxardous. An article in today's Arizona Republic (http://www.azcentral.com/class/marketplace/cars/0618blowouts.html) states that "Still, the overwhelming cause of tread separation is poor tire maintenance, especially the widespread failure of drivers to regularly check tire air pressure. Tires that are low on air build up internal heat as they roll, spiking the effects of high air and pavement temperatures and causing inner parts of the tire to crack and break down."
Bottom line -check tire pressure regularly, don't let them get low.
Keep safe.
az0

Johnnylightning
07-06-2005, 07:44 PM
In my case, checking the tire's pressure is not the problem. Even at .50 I'm having a real problem finding a compressor in my area that inflates promptly and efficiently.

Today's coin operated compressors aren't up to par with the good ol' fashioned compressors of yesteryear.

Genom
07-06-2005, 07:57 PM
Even at .50 I'm having a real problem finding a compressor in my area that inflates promptly and efficiently.

Today's coin operated compressors aren't up to par with the good ol' fashioned compressors of yesteryear.

Ugh, those coin-op compressors are for sh!t...Hess gas stations have nice compressors that are free to use, and the newer ones are have digital pressure displays.

If all else fails, I have a Black and Decker Air Station I can always use.

paulj
07-06-2005, 08:33 PM
I keep a battery powered air compressor in the car, and use that to adjust pressures as needed. This allows me to set the 'cold' pressure, not one after a drive to the gas station. Such a compressor isn't fast, but I can choose to adjust pressures when I am not in a rush.

paulj

RainDriver
07-06-2005, 09:12 PM
Good work, dblair. Keep at it and keep posting those results.

I run 40 psi as it seems to work best, but it'll be interesting to see what your thermometer study says.

Imamonkey
07-07-2005, 01:05 AM
Very cool. I amd very interested in hearing what psi you end up at. I have been running at 34/36 just because 32/34 seemed way to squishy.

Same here. When I got my E home from the dealer a few weeks ago, I checked the air pressure after Eddie had sat in the cool garage for a few hours. All four tires were inflated to 34 psi. I deflated the front tires to 32, and rode that way for about a week, but that felt squishy like you say. So, I re-inflated the front tires to 34, and then figured that there was a good reason Honda thought the back tires should be inflated 2 psi higher than the front tires, so I brought the back tires to 36. Mostly, I've since experienced noticeably better handling at slightly higher inflation. I also noticed an uptick in gas mileage from somewhere around 22 to closer to 24 mpg (average, 60% hwy/40% street). I don't know if the gas mileage is due to tire inflation or engine break-in, could be a little of both. The only thing about slight overinflation that seems to be a drawback is that bumps do seem to cause eddie to bounce around a bit more (but this could be an illusion based on my knowing I over-inflated the tires a bit).

I have considered bumping my tires to 38 rear/36 front. I may try it for a week and see what I think. I doubt I'll push it higher than that, given Honda's recommendation, and the pretty awful reviews of the stock tires I've seen here and elsewhere. Honda may be looking to sell cars through comfort, as someone else suggested (probably some truth there), but Honda isn't a stupid company, and it seems unlikely that they'd sacrifice safety to add comfort for higher sales (like Ford obviously did).

preludemd
07-07-2005, 09:25 AM
Completely unrelated but since the company was mentioned, for those of you investors out there that like your Smart Tire systems. It's a penny stock so use extreme caution.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SMTR.OB

dblair
07-07-2005, 03:29 PM
Well...since my last post the probe on my pyrometer broke. I sent it in to the company who made it and they want $90.00 for a new one. I paid $20 on E-Bay for the whole pyrometer. So I'm back looking on E-Bay.

The last readings I got were with the fronts at 36 and the rears at 38. Still cooler in the center. Keep in mind the results might be different for different tires but 36 and 38 are certainly OK for the stock Goodyears. Probably more.

trickyvick
07-07-2005, 09:08 PM
Well...since my last post the probe on my pyrometer broke. I sent it in to the company who made it and they want $90.00 for a new one. I paid $20 on E-Bay for the whole pyrometer. So I'm back looking on E-Bay.

The last readings I got were with the fronts at 36 and the rears at 38. Still cooler in the center. Keep in mind the results might be different for different tires but 36 and 38 are certainly OK for the stock Goodyears. Probably more.

Well, too bad...sorry to hear that the unit broke but I am glad to see that 36/38 was still not the perfect range :-)

Johnnylightning
07-08-2005, 05:14 PM
*snip*
Keep in mind the results might be different for different tires but 36 and 38 are certainly OK for the stock Goodyears. Probably more.My OEM Goodyears have been replaced w/ BFG 235/60/(? whatever stock rim size is).

If this is the case, would it be wise to overinflate this size tire as well? Or does this only apply to the stock tires?

dblair
07-11-2005, 10:58 AM
Different tires have different sidewall stiffness as well as many other differences. To say my readings apply to all tires (even if they are the same size on the same rims) is a stretch. I do think the variance I found compared with Honda's recommendations is pretty signifficant and I don't think 3-4 lbs. higher is a problem with tires of the same general size and type as the stockers. See what your butt dyno says. I've increased two more lbs. to 38 front 40 rear. My impression is that it feels about right. Not too harsh over the bumps and more stable in the turns.

Johnnylightning
07-11-2005, 08:24 PM
*snip*
See what your butt dyno says. I've increased two more lbs. to 38 front 40 rear. My impression is that it feels about right. Not too harsh over the bumps and more stable in the turns.Yeah, I'm feling kinda mushy at 36lbs on all four.

chrisell
07-27-2006, 01:29 PM
I have a related question : why are the 'stock' pressures on the E "back to front" ?
Every front-engined car I've ever owned has always recommended higher pressure in the front tyres where the extra weight of the engine is. On the E, the higher pressure is recommended in the rear which seems totally bizarre given it's the lightest part of the vehicle.
Any clues anyone ?
And how's the pyrometer testing coming along or have you stopped it now?

dblair
07-27-2006, 03:23 PM
The probe broke off putting an end to my project. I bought the thing on E-bay. It was an older analog type, the newer digital versions are a bit more expensive and a new probe was 3 times what I paid for the pyrometer.

As far as the recommended front/rear pressure goes I guess we can only speculate as to Honda's reasons. One possibility could be they were trying to build in a little less understeer. Increaseing the pressure in the rear relative to the front also increases (marginally!) the rear roll stiffness. That would tend to decrease understeer. I can't imagine it being noticeable though so it's anybodys guess.

VAherder
07-27-2006, 05:00 PM
First off using a pyrometer after driving on the street isnt going to tell you a whole lot. When was the last corner? Did you turn right or left? A pyrometer is only going to tell you someting on a road course or maybe an autox course.
But you have to take the temps fast before the tire cools. You also need to have someone taking tire pressures at the same time.

Try this get big piece of chalk or white shoe polish. Chalk the tire in a few places where the tread meets the sidewall. Then go drive your favorite twisty road hard. See how much of the chalk/shoe polish is still on the sidewall which tells you how much the tire is rolling over on its side. Increase pressure until the chalk/polish on sidewall is still there.

Then you might want to consider weighing your E at each corner and balancing it so it is carrying the same weight on each corner and the cross weights are equal.

dblair
07-27-2006, 06:15 PM
A pyrometer is most useful on a road course or autocross course to determine suspension settings, the need for corner weighting as you suggest, as well as tire pressure.

The idea is that you want to use as much of the tire as you can. This can be done for individual turns on a course or for entire laps on an autocross. It can also tell you something on the street.

Starting with the pressure set cold in the morning at the factory setting, I drove to work, about a 30 min. drive. When I got there I immediately took inside, middle and outside readings on all 4. By compareing the left front to the right front you can get an idea if Left turns or rights are favored but that wasn't the purpose. If the middle readings were noticeably higher you can assume you're running too much air. If they are a lot cooler (assumeing you haven't been doing a lot of fast cornering) you can be pretty sure you could safely run more pressure. That's what I found. On all 4 the middle was running noticeably cooler. So...the next day a little more air. Same result. I didn't start to see a difference til I got to around 38 in the front.
I never got to a point where the readings were where they should be (according to the book).

These results pretty much vindicated several members who have been running relatively high pressures and seeing an improvement with stock Goodyears. It's the only way I know (other than a skid pad) to put some numbers on it. I don't think it applies to other tires and I don't think it means the factory settings are a problem other than the outer edges would wear faster. It does mean that if you like the way it feels with higher pressures in the Wranglers it shouldn't be a problem. Some members were worried about going with something other than the factory settings..