Alright, Ihave a 2004 element ex 4wd for my wife... I also have an 01 tacoma trd with a 3" lift.. I know what my tacoma can do off road and it does it extreamly well... I took the element out to long beach in washington for the fourth of july and almost got stuck in the sand.
Couple of questions, are there any left kits out there for the element and has anyone figured out a way to shift it manually into 4wd?
I would think adding crawl gears would be a little involved and might be easier to just swap the engine and trans and replace with a more traditional 4wd system, but if you do that, why not buy a jeep?

I would think adding crawl gears would be a little involved and might be easier to just swap the engine and trans and replace with a more traditional 4wd system, but if you do that, why not buy a jeep?

I think you answered your own question. The E is what it is....

I went off roading in my 2wd EX! went out 6 time got stuck 3..I got some cool pictures and video footage my friend took i will try to get them from him and post them there pretty funny but it handled the mud well...till I got stuck :grin:



Jim

I think you answered your own question. The E is what it is....
well, I didn't mean to sound snooty or anything, my main question is if anyone has figured out how to manually shift it into 4wd, that would be usefull. When I was out on the sand, I was stopped and when I tried to get going the front would just start to dig in before the back could lock up...
it would be nice to be able to just lock into 4 and know that it's engaged.
and then also if anyone has tried taking the E up instead of down.

1. no way to manually switch the trans, as it uses a hydrolic clutch that depends on detecting front/rear spin differentials.

2. no lift kits currently available. best you can do is put larger tires on.

of course, on a beach you would want wider tires, and to air them down.

There is no way of locking it into 4 wd. I don't know if such a feature would have helped in your case, since one of the rear wheels could have dug in just as easily.

I don't have much experience with sand. The only times I have driven on beaches, it has been on firm damp sand.
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=124104&postcount=19
From what I've read, in soft sand there is a fine line between getting going, and digging in. The usual advise is to keep moving smooth and steady. Airing down is often mentioned. I'd also consider starting in 2nd, trying to minimize wheel spin.

paulj

There is no way of locking it into 4 wd. I don't know if such a feature would have helped in your case, since one of the rear wheels could have dug in just as easily.

I don't have much experience with sand. The only times I have driven on beaches, it has been on firm damp sand.
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=124104&postcount=19
From what I've read, in soft sand there is a fine line between getting going, and digging in. The usual advise is to keep moving smooth and steady. Airing down is often mentioned. I'd also consider starting in 2nd, trying to minimize wheel spin.

paulj

well, also its a matter of thinking, 'can it be done'
from what I've read, it uses 2 hydraulic pumps one turned by the front axle and one by the rear... THe computer that controls it has to talk to them some how, is there a line that you could either install a switch or valve to trick the sytem into thinking one axle is going faster than the other and have it lock itself up.
On my tacoma, you can lock the rear differential, but they set it up so you could only do that while in 4-lo. when the transfer case was shifted it would send a ground singnal to the 4wd computer. All I had to do is ground that wire going to the computer and I could lock the rear in any gear...
I guess if I want it, I should buy a service manual from honda and get busy.

In one or more thread in the off-road section there is a link to a detailed pdf file on a Quebec CRV forum, that describes the dual pump unit and its operation.

There are no wires to the unit nor any computer control. If you crawl under the back end of the car, you will just see an elongated extension to the rear differential, with no wires in or out, just a couple of oil fill and drain plugs, and the 3 shaft openings.

One pump is driven by the drive shaft coming from the power takeoff in the transmission or front differential. The other is driven by the center shaft of the rear differential. In normal use, both pumps operate at about the same speed, circulating oil freely. But if the front pump operates faster than the rear one (e.g. front wheels spin), pressure builds up between the front pump and rear one, pressing on a piston and engaging a clutch pack to send power through to the rear differential. So it is the actual spinning of the front wheels that supplies power to engage the clutch.

Once the car gets moving the rear wheels turn at the same speed as the front, the pressure difference drops and the clutch releases.

The force with which the clutch engages varies with the pump speed difference, so more power is sent to the rear wheels when the front ones spin faster. One graph showed a varation from 30-70%.

There are a couple of additional valves, one to release excess pressure, the other to prevent overheating. Also if the rear wheels spin faster for some reason, the oil circulates through a bypass circuit without activating the clutch. The write ups also talk of the system not engaging when the braking, but that is (as far as I can tell) just due to the fact that the brake system is biased to apply more force on the front wheels, so they will normally spin slower than the rear ones when braking. No brake signals are sent to dual pump unit.

If you really want to experiment, I'd suggest going to a junk yard and buying the RT4WD unit from an old CRV (or earlier 4wd Civic). You could open it up, figure out all the oil paths, drill some holes, add some valves and sensors, and make it do what you want. While you are at it, figure out a way of showing that '4wd is on' (which many people have requested).

paulj

In one or more thread in the off-road section there is a link to a detailed pdf file on a Quebec CRV forum, that describes the dual pump unit and its operation.

There are no wires to the unit nor any computer control. If you crawl under the back end of the car, you will just see an elongated extension to the rear differential, with no wires in or out, just a couple of oil fill and drain plugs, and the 3 shaft openings.

One pump is driven by the drive shaft coming from the power takeoff in the transmission or front differential. The other is driven by the center shaft of the rear differential. In normal use, both pumps operate at about the same speed, circulating oil freely. But if the front pump operates faster than the rear one (e.g. front wheels spin), pressure builds up between the front pump and rear one, pressing on a piston and engaging a clutch pack to send power through to the rear differential. So it is the actual spinning of the front wheels that supplies power to engage the clutch.

Once the car gets moving the rear wheels turn at the same speed as the front, the pressure difference drops and the clutch releases.

The force with which the clutch engages varies with the pump speed difference, so more power is sent to the rear wheels when the front ones spin faster. One graph showed a varation from 30-70%.

There are a couple of additional valves, one to release excess pressure, the other to prevent overheating. Also if the rear wheels spin faster for some reason, the oil circulates through a bypass circuit without activating the clutch. The write ups also talk of the system not engaging when the braking, but that is (as far as I can tell) just due to the fact that the brake system is biased to apply more force on the front wheels, so they will normally spin slower than the rear ones when braking. No brake signals are sent to dual pump unit.

If you really want to experiment, I'd suggest going to a junk yard and buying the RT4WD unit from an old CRV (or earlier 4wd Civic). You could open it up, figure out all the oil paths, drill some holes, add some valves and sensors, and make it do what you want. While you are at it, figure out a way of showing that '4wd is on' (which many people have requested).

paulj

Yeah, after reading that article about how it works, I have to say kudos to honda for making a purely mechanical system that is hard to fiddle with... they obviously dont want you touching it

However Honda is relatively free with information on how their systems work. I have a RAV4, and have yet to find information on how it shifts torque front to rear. I know it is supposed to drive them equally in dry conditions. So far the Element has done as well, if not better, than the RAV4 in slippery conditions. Things like tires, weight distribution, gearing, and driver skill can make as much difference as the 4wd/awd mechanism.

paulj

Hi everyone, first post here, but I have been reading since I decided I "could" buy an Element. Got a left-over 2004 AWD automatic. That was last day of March 2005, I've put over 16,000km since then. Love it. Been a Honda fan and buyer since the late '70's.

Anyway, I mountain bike and dirt bike a fair amount (during "no snow" time) and I carry my 250 4-stroke and my wife's 125 4-stroke on a trailer. One of my friends (top enduro rider here) invites me regularly to a private motocross track so we can practice different things. I just started last year doing this so at 47, I consider my learning curve to be a challenge. 2 weeks ago, after a rain storm, we decide to go to that track, knowing we will have to go through some heavy mud patches. Him, driving his 4WD Ford F-150, tells me I should consider parking my E before we get to the mud. I decide not to. Hmmm.... He starts going through the mud holes and... gets stuck! Reverse-forward-reverse-forward-... finally gets it out. He carries his bikes in his pick-up. I remember that momentum is probably the key here, so I start going forward, with both my bikes on the trailer in the back. I'm sliding all over the place but never stop going forward. Got through with some mud flying all over the place but basically no problem! Same thing going back.

The week after, we go to a different place, a huge hidden sandpit next to a wooden area where we have our own little trail set up. The police goes there once in a while to "get people out" of the private property. So we decide to go in a bit deeper to be hidden. Sand, rocks, bumps and holes. I get through but I can assure you that a regular 2WD would not have made it. Coming out of there, I decide to let my wife practice driving the E with the trailer in the back. She only has to back it up some in a tight spot and go back up a sandy, rocky and very un-even hill. I was taking the bikes up that hill to load them from there as it would be easier with the ramp and everything. So she finally turns the E around, after figuring out how to back-up with a trailer, and starts going up the hill. I'm watching all this. She's kind of boucing around and at one point one of the rear wheels is about 6" of the ground and is spinning! My E climbed that hill and went over everything that was in the way. Yes, we scraped the bottom a few times but no damage there. I could see her eyes were as big as the rest of her face at that point!!! Again, momentum certainly helped as she never let go the gas.

So far, I'm fairly impressed with the off-road ability of my E. I know it can't do everything a Jeep can, but so far, it's been great.

Cheers,

Johnnydrz

First time poster, big fan of the element! :-D

I was doing some research on the element, and came across this forum, and thread. I have been driving off-highway for a long time, and have even done some testing with the element.

I have a technique you can use to improve the performance of the element in the rough.

The power is sent to the rear axle when the speed changes between the two driveshafts. Power is sent to the rear at a greater rate as the speed between the two driveshafts increase. The trick is to "preload" the system by creating a constant speed difference between the front and back. This is accomplished by reducing the air pressure in the front tires ONLY. This reduces the rotating diameter of the tire, which will make it turn faster then the rear, thereby increasing the systems hydrolic pressure and responsiveness when a spin is encountered. The greater the pressure difference, the greater the benefit. Of course, the element runs a small diameter tire, so there is a limited range.

Start with the fronts at 18 psi, and the rears at 30, and see how that goes.

Please provide feedback on the effect too :)

Elements are a very cool little machine....

The idea of lowering the pressure of just the front tires is an interesting one. I'd have to think about it some more before deciding under what conditions it might work and whether I'd really need such a 'preloading'.

Some other effects might be more noticible. Running softer front tires is supposed to shift handling toward understeer (if I remember the effects correctly). However the activation of the rear wheel drive could produce oversteer. I did almost spinout while powering through one mud hole, possibly because the rear wheels kicked in at a point where the front ones where turned slightly.

Softening the tires is supposed to improve traction since the tires can wrap around bumps and rocks. Since the Element is normally frontwheel drive, softening the front ones would help more than the rear ones. However softening the tires also reduces ground clearance. Leaving the rear ones hard would reduce this effect. I think the rear subframe is actually the lowest point of the Element.

Also if the Element is not heavily loaded, the weight on the front wheels will be higher. So in sand, the increased floatation of soft tires may help more in front than in back.

Maybe the 'stuck in the sand' situation mentioned at the start of this thread is first place to try this 'preloading', both because it adds floatation to the front end, and may cause the rear ones to kick in sooner. On a rockier trail I probably wouldn't drop the front tires below 25psi.

Another 'preloading' technique might be to apply the parking brake part way. This slows the rear wheels but not the front ones. I haven't tried this myself, but there's a post on a recent CRV thread about the resulting four wheel drift:
http://www.hondasuv.com/stg/viewtopic.php?t=11031&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=7

paulj

I have been a trainer for Land Rover North America for a few years, and we use this technique with the Freelanders. They have a different system, but the priciples are the same. The Freelander uses a viscous center diff, which cannot be engaged manually. A viscous unit requires wheel speed change between vanes to heat the fluid and apply torque. Lowering the pressure of the front axle tires proved quite effective.

By lowing the pressure on the front axle, you also have the benefit of increased traction on the tires with the greatest grip (on level terrain), as the weight of the motor increases contact pressure.

I would think this should work in all OHV situations, and will make the system more responsive and consistent. One of the problems I hear of is the sudden jerk, or even overstear when the system engages.

I agree with your statement about air pressure in the rocks. With the tires short section height, the rim is vulnerable. I have seen a few E's with slightly taller tires, which would help that.


I remember a few years ago, when I was driving the Canyon de Chelly trail in NE Arizona. We were at the end of the Canyon del Muerto, which is the toughest trail in the area, and along came this little E. Totally stock and just cruising along through the sand, and over the rocks etc. I was totally impressed with this new (at the time just released) and very functional little machine. Ever since then, I have been trying to justify the need to buy one :)

The tire pressure difference probably won't make much difference if the front wheels spin when starting from a stop. In that case, the rear wheels aren't spinning at all, so a small change in front tire diameter won't change how soon the rear wheels start getting power.

Rear wheel power is most obvious at low speeds when the front ones spin. That's when you get the greatest speed differences and the greatest shift in torque (up to a 30/70% front/rear split according to one description). At higher speeds, and smaller rotational differences, the proportion of rear wheel torque is less and hard to detect.

There is some sort of bias in the RT4WD oil pumps and their circuits that allows the front wheels to spin upto 2% faster without activating the clutch pack. This is supposed to allow for varations in wheel spin as the car goes around normal curves.

The recommended tire pressures are 32/34 psi, so the front ones are already a bit softer. Between that difference and the greater unloaded weight in front, I can see a difference in the flattening of the tires front v back.

Another detail to be aware of, is that there is a thermal cutout valve in the RT4WD unit. If the oil heats up, the valve acts and the unit stops sending power to the rear wheels. A few people have reported experiencing this when driving in sand for extended periods.

paulj

The tire pressure difference probably won't make much difference if the front wheels spin when starting from a stop. In that case, the rear wheels aren't spinning at all, so a small change in front tire diameter won't change how soon the rear wheels start getting power.

The fact that the front and rear wheels would be turning at different speeds constantly is why the method is effective.



There is some sort of bias in the RT4WD oil pumps and their circuits that allows the front wheels to spin upto 2% faster without activating the clutch pack. This is supposed to allow for varations in wheel spin as the car goes around normal curves.

Interesting point. It may be worthwhile to measure the diameter of the tire with the pressure at 18 psi. If the diameter difference between the front and rear can exceed 2%, than this is probably an effective method.

Another detail to be aware of, is that there is a thermal cutout valve in the RT4WD unit. If the oil heats up, the valve acts and the unit stops sending power to the rear wheels. A few people have reported experiencing this when driving in sand for extended periods.

Ouch, now that could be a show stopper...

I know this is a little off topic but does the element allow AWD in reverse..? ive notice less torque when backing up. Also wouldnt you need a softer tire to be more effective at less pressure?

I know this is a little off topic but does the element allow AWD in reverse..? ive notice less torque when backing up.
I assume it would, as most of these systems pumps are bi-directional, but I am not (anywhere near) an E expert.



Also wouldnt you need a softer tire to be more effective at less pressure?

A softer tire would not be required for the method to be effective. Most importantly the tires on the E are P-rated, which already have soft (few ply) sidewalls.

The other way of getting a softer tire would be to purchase a tire model with a softer rubber durometer rating. Many of the high performance racing and rock crawling tires are designed that way, with a softer rubber. The softer rubber allows for higher adhesion rates and better micro-keying to the irregular surface protrusions. Of course, these tires are not practical for the street, as the wear VERY quickly. :)

The AWD system operates the same forward and backward - faster spin of the front tires activates the clutch pack.

Lower torque in reverse has to do with the gearing. 1st gear is lower than reverse on the automatic transmission. They are about the same on the manual.
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2038?mid=2004091454075&mime=asc

Judging from load ratings and such, it appears that almost all tires in the stock 215/70/16 size have the same ply construction (1760 lb is typical). Only if you switch to 225/75/16 can you find both a standard and higher load rating version.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=BFGoodrich&model=All-Terrain+T%2FA+KO

For a Wrangler that you use on local trails or trailer to Moab it makes sense to get specialized off-road tires. For an Element that you drive 2000 miles to Colorado, and then drive 50 miles on mixed gravel and dirt, it is better to focus on the daily driving conditions, with a nod toward the adventures. Revos, KOs, Nokians and of course my Cooper ATRs :) all appear to be decent compromises between good rain and snow traction and backroads use.

paulj

This is a nice compromise tire

Yokohama Geolander AT
http://www.yokohamatire.com/images/carsandtires/GeolandarAT+2.jpg

And it is available in a 225/75 R 16 with the higher load rating (and stronger sidewalls).

I don't look at my Element as being a true off road vechicle. I probably wouldn't take any new vechicle off road. If I wanted something for off road I would have bought a Nissan Xteria.

Darrin

'Off road' is a fuzzy term, and adding 'true' to only reduces the fuzziness a bit. For example is a Colorado 4x4 track 'true off road'? In another thread I just wrote about Mosquito Pass near Leadville CO. What category is that? One list rated it as '4', while the next road to the south is a '2'. The difficulty of a road also varies with the weather and snow level.

Note also that in many areas travel off extablished roads and tracks is prohibited.

I lean toward using 'backroads' to describe my explorations. I just described in the Northwest section my latest camping trip to Hart's Pass. It's a favorite area for my neighbor who has an Xterra, but many of the cars parked at the trailheads were Subarus. Later I climbed Chelan Butte, which had some pretty steep dirt sections. But as I was climbing a sedan passed me heading down. My Element may not have the traditional 4x4 system with low range that my S10 pickup has, or the Trooper II before that, but I've been more adventuresome with the Element - in part because I have had more available time while living in an area with an abundance of mountains.

I participate in these 'off roading' threads because I am interested in developing a realistic idea of what I can and cannot do with the Element. Whether an Xterra could do better isn't the point.

paulj

Paul,

I commend your desire to explore. The most important thing is the discovery along the journey, not how hard the trail is, or the destination (but you already knew that :wink: ). I have seen incredible scenery from a maintained dirt trail. No rock crawling, or Xterra's required...

I took all of these pictures from trails easily accessible to an E:
http://www.expeditionswest.com/photography/review/Review_MED/MED_cedar_breaks_UT.JPG

http://www.expeditionswest.com/photography/review/Review_MED/MED_coronado_clouds.jpg

http://www.expeditionswest.com/photography/review/Review_MED/MED_tortolitas.jpg

I am going to pick up a test E from my editorial contacts and go on a real expedition in it. Something excitting, which will really test the little machine. I will let you all know how it goes :-D

I see your first picture has a Cedar Breaks title. I crossed southern Utah last fall. I was planning on taking Burr Trail across Capitol Reef NP, but a recent rain storm had washed mud across one of the stream crossings. The same storm had convinced me to limit most of my driving in the Colorado San Juans to paved roads. Still I got in some interesting, if not difficult, bits of gravel roads, such as Mokee Dugway (part pavement, part gravel), and Brian Head near Breaks. Oh, and the drive to Muley Pt near the Dugway was off-highway as well. With more time I might have tried the road below Muley Pt (at the bottom edge of the 4th picture).

I just remembered that as we got to the top of the Dugway climb, we passed an expedition equiped Unimog heading down. Even the ultimate off-road truck has to travel ordinary scenic roads. :)

paulj

Excellent Photo's :cool:

Southern Utah is one of my favorite locations to explore. Here are a few of my recent trips there:

White Rim Trail, Canyonlands (http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2004/white_rim/index.html)

Southern Utah Adventure (http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2004/SE_utah/index.html) This included many uninproved roads, which would make for a challenging and beautiful adventure for an E owner.

Paul,

If you ever make it to AZ, please look me up. It would be fun to hit a trail with you and the E. email: guide@expeditionswest.com

Show OFF!!! ha... sweet pics

Excellent Photo's :cool:

Southern Utah is one of my favorite locations to explore. Here are a few of my recent trips there:

White Rim Trail, Canyonlands (http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2004/white_rim/index.html)

Southern Utah Adventure (http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2004/SE_utah/index.html) This included many uninproved roads, which would make for a challenging and beautiful adventure for an E owner.

Paul,

If you ever make it to AZ, please look me up. It would be fun to hit a trail with you and the E. email: guide@expeditionswest.com

That is some pretty country.
Man, I envy your job.

This cubicle crap sucks!

From what I've read, White Rim might be borderline for the Element, though I don't see anything too difficult in your pictures. Last fall I drove a bit on the Potash-Shafer road, which intersects White Rim near Island in the Sky. Based on an earlier drive (in 1988) I think the Element would have done fine, but I didn't have enough time to drive beyond Dead Horse Pt.

I wouldn't want to try the right turn onto the ledge at the end of the Wesses Canyon video. Too much likelihood of hitting something on the bottom of the Element.
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2004/SE_utah/smokey_mountain/index.html
The rocky sections of the Dead Lake trip might be doable in an Element - but only with a lot of skill and a spotter. Without low range, rocks like that are easier to negotiate headed downhill, using brakes more than gas to control my speed.
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2004/SE_utah/dead_lake/index.html

One 'off road' topic that I've explored, but not come to a satisfactory conclusion, is the choice of realistic recovery gear. That is, what should I take in terms of straps, winches, etc, in case I drive a bit too far and get stuck?
Earlier threads include:
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7167
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7924

I notice Scott has a review of the Black Rat tirfor type hand winch
http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/general_equipment/black_rat_winch.htm
and a 'constrictor strap' (similar to the Redart 'Superstrap')
http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/general_equipment/constrictor.html

So far I've only invested in a 2T come-along and some straps, including an 'extension strap' from Extreme Outback (plus some shackles and a bit of chain to reach the tow loops). One thing that I worry about with this setup is stretch of the straps needed to reach an anchor. I suspect many straps would stretch the full 6' of the come-along's pull.

One of these days when I'm camping I need to pull out my gear from the spare tire well, and see if I actually have enough to move the Element.

paulj

I think the E can do the white rim. There are two spots that might be a challenge IMO.

1. About 2/3 of the way through the trail, there is a steep, loose (sandy) climb. Maybe 60 yards long. Clearance is not a problem though, so you could really lower the tire pressures for flotation.

2. At the end of the trail, there is a section that crosses several washes, and the banks were pretty abrupt. A shovel could have fixed that. That area can also get deep mud, so a late fall trip is best.

I think the White Rim would be an awesome trip for the E and an experienced driver... :)

Paul,

You have done a good job of researching recovery, and your comments made in the referenced threads are right on.

Fortunately the E is a very lightweight vehicle, so the amount, and size of recovery gear required is reasonable. If traveling alone, I think a good investment would be the 800kg Black Rat hand winch. I have used this unit many times on the trail, and with a block could easily extract an E.

In addition to that, a small recovery kit consisting of a (2), 1.5" contrictors (one for pulling and the other for a tree strap), a few shackles and solid tow points. I would also invest in a good shovel.

Too bad the E doesnt come with traction control. Now that would work well :)

Oh, and I wonder how hard it would be to install a Pilot rear end with locking diff? I know, I know :???:

I guess this answer my idea of going off roading..

:-o

Off roading you bet !!! I take mine in the deep sand on beaches and off road on logging roads not very good ones mind you. The trick is to keep the honda thinking it is spinning the tires. Like in the sand for example. Low gear 1 if automatic and 1st or second if a manual shift. I was wippin down the beach in oregon last weekend and pulled off in the deep sand slowed down a little shifted down and stuck my foot in it. Those back tires kicked in like a boot from a drill sargent. I watched my red line and was careful not to over rev but the little honda must have thought it needed 4 wheels because I was going around the big fords sunk to the crank cases. They look at me like they had see a figment of there imagination. I did not stop mind you because then all you have is 2 wheel drive. Slow down watch your revs put your foot in it and dont stop especially if in deep sand. Dirt not a problem because you dont sink.
Steve O :twisted:

Steve O,


what tires do you have on the E?