Can three people sit in the back seat (with seatbelts)?

no only 2 big roomy back seats

Yes only two. The center of the bakc seats has a platics two cup holder. But is is very flat so not to intrude if the seats are laid flat for sleeping.

so i would guess the max capacity is 4 normal size human. :D

tommy.roks

Well, that would depend on what you consider normal sized :lol:

Yes, you can only carry 4 people in the seats, with the seat belts.

Honda only designed the Element for being a 4 seater. If you lay down the 2 back seats, it is really up to you how many people you can fit in, but it won't be safe to drive, and if you do, mostly illegal.

I was so disappointed to discover that they designed this car so well, but it only seat four. I mean how the hell are you going to capture the SUV or mini-Van market when you can only seat 4...!?

I :cry: [/b]

sorry there, wsj3
they were not planning on overtaking the suv or especially the min-van market.. they were making something new, innovative and fun.. something that could get messy..

it just happens that messy goes with kids, which attracts people with kids. Only makes sense.

Perhaps they will realize this and make one that is a little more family friendly.. who knows eh?

Another reason for only seating four is the carrying capacity of the Element is only 675 pounds! That's four 170 pound adults and you're at the vehicle's load limit.

I didn't believe it when I first heard about this, I've since called Honda twice and wrote them a letter; all confirm the 675 pound limit.

People,

We do have to remember this is not a super big Lux boat. This car is not designed to be a huge SUV. The Element is a wonderful utility truck, but it is not everything under the sun.

If you need a truck that seats more than 4, this is not the vehicle for you. Maybe, if the Element sales zoom, Honda may make a bigger version. I would not count on it though.

Too bad you are disappointed with only four seats - there have got to be a zillion other SUV choices. The Element is a success for what it is (and what it isn't) - don't try to make it like all the others! I consider it a 2 X2 vehicle - outstanding for two and adaptable for four or stuff!

cool thought wayland.,..

and yeah it is kinda like thinking with the S2000 why can't I fit a family of 5 and a couple friends in there, it is not intended to do so.. everything has a purpose.. and we enjoy and use them as we wish.. Don't expect more than it can offer you, enjoy the facets it does have.. and the element has many, many facets!

[quote:02b7761f86="RML"]tommy.roks

Well, that would depend on what you consider normal sized :lol:

Yes, you can only carry 4 people in the seats, with the seat belts.

Honda only designed the Element for being a 4 seater. If you lay down the 2 back seats, it is really up to you how many people you can fit in, but it won't be safe to drive, and if you do, mostly illegal.[/quote:02b7761f86]this weekend i went to check out the car. man the rear seat feel so uncomfortable.

There's only seating for two in the back so that the seats can be removed/folded flat against the sidewalls. A functional design at work here.

I just love the element. The only problem is that I have 3 kids. I need to be able to hold 5 people on family excursions. Is there a way to carry 5 people in the Element or at least plans to make an alternate rear seating plan (maybe a removable split bench)?

Bonkers,

I would say that the Element is not the right vehicle for you.

There does not seem to be anything in the works (from what I have seen and heard) about making seating for 5. Sorry.

You are SOL. To me, that is the biggest drawback to the E. I have two kids who always seem to have friends with them. Our E belts fewer people than my Civic Coupe. I could do without the flip-up seats if I could have a 5 seater. I have read online about people 'rigging' a middle seat belt, but it is for emergency only and not acceptable for a daily 5th passenger.

Sorry, the E is not for you.

I love this vehicle. But, every now and then I'm going to have to fit a fifth person (most likely a 6-year-old). I'm thinking about a seat cushion to place over the center cupholders and having an interior shop install a shoulder belt, possibly tied into the baby seat latch system. I'm also investigating a harness belt (the kind used in race cars). If the interior shop tells me it's not safe, I won't do it. Anyone have a better idea?

Honda, are you listening? At least make the fifth seat an option.

Thanks, All!

Although I am not recommended this to you, especially with a 6 year old being the 5th driver....but we have on several ocassions had three full grown adults across the back bench. They all made the decision to take the ride and I know I would have been held liable if god forbid anything happened.

I understand the reasons behind Honda's design....having the two seats in the back allows for the 50/50 split and the ability to hang the seats in the back. I will admitt that I have hung the seats many more times than I have had 3 people in the back.....so maybe if Honda simply makes this an option in upcoming model years. I would not opt for this as I like and use the 50/50 split more than I would use 3 seats in the back.

I look at it this way.....only a lucky 3 people get to ride in the fun car! All the rest have to pile into my friends Explorer or Expedition :)

Are you mad??????? Installing a seat yourself..... First off I don't know if your ins company would insure you or not. Just think of the law suit if something happened to the person that was sitting in that seat when it gives way and they are injured or killed.

Maybe you should have thought of this before you bought your E

I would not put in a seat if I were you.

Hey, Mac --

If you read it correctly, you will see that I am not installing a seat myself, but rather I am thinking about installing a 5th seatbelt in the rear center position for those rare occassions when I have a 5th person aboard. If it's done correctly, by a qualified person, I believe that it would be safe. After all, the latch system is tied into the frame and the seatbelt that I would add is made for high performance racecars.

I am not crazy. I will not do this if it is determined not be safe. But, if the CRV has a fifth position, I see no reason why the Element couldn't be safely modified by someone who is qualified to do so.

I understand, however, would you not need Honda or your Ins company to ok this????
I'm just thinking if something happens with it. Would Honda say that installing something like this may effect the body of the vehicle or something like that. I know whith a lot of things if you tamper or add things to the structure or components companies wave there hands of any responsiblities.
Is it even legal to do something like this???

Just wondering????

Someone ask for a lawyer?

Legal, (depending on the state) actually, not. It changes the vehicle according to DMV.

I would stay away from having this type of modification done.

What do you mean not legal? What is DMV? What about screwing things on like bush bars and running boards and roof racks etc? Isn't that a vehicle mod. I put lapbelts in the military into jeeps and MI51's. You need about 1/2 inch bolt to attach to the frame? There are DOT guidelines.

BTW I am planning to put in a lapbelt for emergencies. The only thing is if rust starts there its going to be my fault. It will not be the fault if rust starts at the other side of the vehicle.

if you need to squeeze more than 2 people in the back, take another car. I'd have to concur that rigging a belt for a 5th person is a hazard, regardless of how you have it done. Especially if this person is a minor, 6 years old at that - they have no way to know that it's a bad situation for them. You're better off putting the kid in a kennel in the rear!

Took it to an interior shop today -- one of the best in Los Angeles. They do a lot of restorations and commonly add DOT approved seat belts to old cars that don't have them and add shoulder harnesses to old cars that only had lap belts. The owner said "Absolutely no problem."

We came up with a system using a high quality racing style harness. He would attach a belt to each of the baby seat latches in the rear roof. He would then attach the lower belts to one of the following: The same floor rod to which the seats attach or the same bolts that hold the other belts (under the spare tire cover). It would probably also attach to the seats. This would be used in conjuction with a booster seat with a built-in headrest (made for up too 100 lbs.). His opinion, after installing hundreds of seat belts over the years, is that, with this four point system, this center position will be the safest seat in the car. By the way, the belt could be easily detached from the upper latches when not in use (which would be 95% of the time).

If for one second I felt that I was endagering my child, I would never do this. Keep in mind that each of these upper latches is made to hold a child seat.

I am certainly not trying to encourage other to use such a system, just sharing my experiences. I believe that many Element owners will occassionally have a 5th passenger - sometimes it's unavoidable. This is certainly better than nothing.

Drive Safely!

So the shop that is going to install this for you what type of insurance do they have???? How do they back there product???? Have you asked Honda about this???? Is the added force from this belt when stopping for an emergancy going to have an effect to the floor mounts that everything else is secured to??

Hi again, Mac --

Pick up the spare tire cover on your element and check out what holds the seatbelts down. Honestly, it's not that substantial because it doesn't need to be. It's simply a bolt. That kind of strength is not hard to duplicate in a steel-framed vehicle.

Am I crazy? I might be.

[quote:cc4ed3fa2a="ropedart"]What do you mean not legal? What is DMV? What about screwing things on like bush bars and running boards and roof racks etc? Isn't that a vehicle mod. I put lapbelts in the military into jeeps and MI51's. You need about 1/2 inch bolt to attach to the frame? There are DOT guidelines.

BTW I am planning to put in a lapbelt for emergencies. The only thing is if rust starts there its going to be my fault. It will not be the fault if rust starts at the other side of the vehicle.[/quote:cc4ed3fa2a]

Not legal, as in against the law. DMV is Department of Motor Vehicles. They thru the police enforce state and local laws and codes for motor vehicles. Cars, boats, and air planes (yes, they are considered motor vehicles). You would have to check into your local or state law as to what would be legal for you. I know in Ct and NY, you can not legally make the type of modifications to your vehicle that you talk about doing.

Let me give you an example. Bumper height. All bumpers are required to be the same height (give or take). When someone puts springs and a lift kit on a vehicle, they change the location of the bumper. Now it is rare to hear about the police pulling someone over for it, but they can. In addition, if there was an accident, the insurance company could sit and say, well, the person would not be injured, or the vehicle would not have been as bad if you had not changed the location of the bumper, so they won't pay, and you will have to. Does that make any sense?

You can do whatever you wish to your E, but your insurance company and the police may have something to say on it.

Any change you make, must legally be reported to your insurance company. Now I am not talking about putting a roof rack on (although you actually should notify them), but if you bolt something to it, that changes the manufacture's design. That can effect the center of gravity, the weight ratio that the company has on a vehicle, etc. If you were to add brush guards, that might effect the warranty. Really it might.

As far as DOT regulations, you would have to check with your state and see what they require. Adding a lapbelt, even up to code may not be the best idea, as Honda could say that you changed their design, and that altered the E and you are liable for anything that goes on due to things. God forbid that you have a serious accident, and the bolt pulls out, or breaks, etc. I would hate to have to represent you in a case like that.

I hope this helps a bit.

OK you did your job you scared everybody. :shock: Now its my turn.

Perhaps I have an advantage because I am a mechanical engineer who can calculate, certify and stamp an belt assembly to be safe. I would be comfortable in what I would do to my Element. I am sure the interior shop Elemental mentioned feels the same way. I have lapbelt kit from Bell (the helmet people). Basically its says to mount it 15 to 25 inches apart at angle of about 70 degrees behind the seat. The bolt should be attached to the vehicle frame that is has anchor points rated to FMVSS 210 (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 210). Searched online and it means the anchor point should take 5000 lbs of force. The Honda seatbelt anchor points would be located inches away from where I would put them. So its going to be a strong area. Given that Bell gives you 7/16 inch bolts and 3 inch diameter washers its a pretty strong assembly system. If I have a problem I know I can sue Bell for a defective product. I know by looking at the situation my passengers would be dead or badly injured long before the seatbelt fails. I think 5000 lbs would kill anyone.

What I also have to say its not OK to mount the seatbelt to the seat with glue or staples or stitching. Its not OK to mount seatbelts to carpet. Its not OK to mount the seatbelt to flimsy plastic. It has to be a solid area of steel.

Adding this seatbelt is a 1000 times better than not offering any in an emergency. In an age of airbags and curtains there are too many deaths just from not being buckled in with a lousy lapbelt. I am exercising reasonable care and duty for my passengers. Try and sue me for that.

Anyway if anyone cannot stomach this then just get a CRV or something.

Finally my disclaimer. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME KIDS!. I am not advocating anyone try this. This is just an idea. Do this at your own risk. I am not responsible or any accidents or stolen items. :evil:

I don't see any additional seatbelt for an additional passenger. I think they just did away with the cup holders... which I prefer.

But did you notice how they have clear headlights and a side marker in the fender panel near the front door instead of the triangle near the headlamps! It looks a lot cleaner and more like upscale vehicles here in the states. The right hand drive is kinda wild looking too!

http://home.earthlink.net/~alienfarms/images/jpne.jpg

There are definately three seat belts for the rear seat. Check it out at

http://www.honda.co.jp/ELEMENT/interior/

Looking at the JDM version of the E, i really think that the third seat belt is for a baby seat. I tried to see if it has the LATCH devices for the baby seats but couldn't find the arrows on the seat plastic covers. Besides that who would really want to sit "on the crack" anyway. Another difference i spotted was that their seat side covers have a pull strap to release them as opposed to our simple clip. Perhaps that one of the minor enhancements we might see on our E's for 2004.

If I knew how to post pics here I would.
I don't know how elemental made out but I thought about it and installed a 5 point Junior Racing harness from RCI 9410D. Since the Japanese think the seat is strong enough for a lapbelt I am using the seat strength for support. I did not drill any holes. I just shackled to the front seat hinges and went under and over the seats in a M shape pattern. Attached the shoulder harnesses to the child seat tethers and the 5th point to one of the seat anchors. Yeh, I think it is the safest seat in my car for a child or small adult anyway.
Maybe its a good thing there are no pics. I wouldn't want anyone to follow my scheme. Not recommending it to anyone else to try y'know. :wink:

true-- in this day and age, if someone copied you using your photos, and then messed it up and had an accident, you could be held liable. what a wonderful, litigous society we live in :)

As long as the seat belts are DOT (Department Of Motorvehicle) approved and are fastened securely and will not break on impact, they are not illegal. Also, the seat belt material used has to be DOT approved.

As for bumper being the same height on all vehicles, it is impossible. I'm not gonna go on detail about this one. Just compare cars, vans, suv's and trucks then picture the differences in bumper heights.

ex. 2WD Expedition is 4 inches lower than a 4WD expedition = front and rear bumpers are different in height.

It helps to know when you work for the government and know people within the different departments and divisions.

John

I want to rig my element so I can travel through the Florida Everglades. I just need to waterproof the cabin and add some really big tires.

I want to carry not just 5 people. but 7. I am going to have them sit 2 in the front, 3 across the back and 2 siting facing each other alllll the way in the back, ala Land Rover Disco style.

My Element also needs land mine protection just in case some mines fall off a plane into the everglades.

ohh..aligator protection...maybe some run flat super swampter tires.

I would also like it to fly, so if I can get someone to rig up some removable wings. The propeller might be a problem. If the two people in the very back swing their legs just right, maybe I could put a rearward facing engine with a prop on it.

I also want a convertible. So...I am going to cut off anything higher than the steering wheel. Hopefully that won't affect the alligator/mine/water protection.

Anyone have any prices on snorkels for the air intake? Would hate to get water in the engine. I heard Cloudrider was coming out with some new stuff for a Swamp riding, aligator protecting, mine proof, seven passenger flying convertible Element. Anyone got pics?

:lol:

6 seats! Thats my long term project. Here's a hint. Take out the rear seats. Buy 4 APC sports seats at $150 each. (Can you believe that price and they look good) Why? So I can laugh when I go by a minivan! :lol:

So much to do so much to buy 8)

What I still don't get is why someone would buy an Element if they needed a 5-passenger vehicle. There are plenty of other choices in the small SUV category that offer this, so why not get one of them.

As far as seatbelts, my 59 Beetle had no seatbelts when new. One owner installed lapbelts, and I installed racing harnesses. No body shop would install brackets for regular shoulder belts because of "liability." The frame of the bug was not designed for these.

Now the idea of bolting seatbelts to the floor of the Element seems odd to me. Isn't the idea of the rear seats is that the fold up and out of the way leaving a clear, level floor space? Why clutter it up with lap belts and racing harnesses?

Of course if you need 5 seats on a regular basis get a comfortable big 5 seater. I need 4 but occasionally I have 5. If you could not possibly fit 5 then fine but the Japanese Element fits 5 showing its certainly possible. Even the Honda mini video showed 3 people getting in the back. (They better take that out). The people on this forum and who bought Elements know it only seats 4. Thats why people here don't really care. Do you know how many people walk away from the Element because it seats 4?(And you know its killing them!) I bet a lot and it was done to protect CRV sales. Remember the Element is cheaper than a CRV and must be justified so. CRV sales are doing OK.

BTW my system can completely break down and be stored in the spare tire well or cargo bags. It disturbs me some people sneak a 5th person in without a belt because its physically possible to.

Man the japanese must be small people. Who wants to sit on a couple of cupholders. That doesn't look too safe too. Like everyone said if you wanted a 5 seater you should have bought another car like the CRV. I saw someone on this forum put a 5 point seatbelt in the middle for his kid but I still wouldn't take a risk like that even with my child.

[quote:a73b5165f3="klynch13"]Man the japanese must be small people. Who wants to sit on a couple of cupholders. That doesn't look too safe too.[/quote:a73b5165f3]

You could say that. You could also say that North Americans are big people. :) I suspect that part of the reason that only 4 seats were offered in the US is that we're just bigger on average, and the pivot mount feature's hardware causes the rear seat total width to be a bit more narrow than the CR-V, even though the element is a bit wider. Perhaps the theory of conserving the core "family" CR-V sales is valid as well. Does the CR-V have a shoulder-belt or lap-belt in the center position?

Also, if you look more closely at that picture, I believe the Japanese version has padding there, and no cupholders.

During my "test drive" I tried sitting in that position. There was about 1mm of space between the top of my head and the ceiling. Definitely a different headroom situation than the front seats... :)

The Japanese model shown has a lapbelt, definitely questionable safety but "better" than no belt at all if someone is sitting there.

I'm really interested in the harness/belt system mentioned earlier. To the poster who installed it (i forgot your name!), any change in your ability to take a picture and post it?

-brendan

I'm surprised some of y'all would get on an airplane since they only have lap belts. What about school buses with no belts at all?

I'm a father of two and I'd feel much better were my kids protected by a well thought out race harness as opposed to the factory stuff. If you install it properly you'll be fine. If you find a car you like and can make it serve your needs, why not drive the car you want?

Hats off to the folks doing this. It's much better than just throwing someone back there with nothing! BTW, if you do throw an extra person in the back seat without any seat belt, should you notify Honda or your insurance company?

I don't know if they'd put in 3 seats in the back becuase the CR-V has that and the Element is a "niche" vehicle. I've had mine for 5 months now and haven't had anyone in the back yet.

I wouldn't want a 3rd seat in the back anyway. 99.5% of the time is either 1 or 2 people the most in my E :D If i wanted a 3rd seat, i would of gotten a Pilot instead.

[quote:84f4e9cb7b="jakepkoe"]
Hats off to the folks doing this. It's much better than just throwing someone back there with nothing! [/quote:84f4e9cb7b]

Hell, when we were kids, our parents and grandparents let us ride in the back of a station wagon and a hatchback with nothing, laying down no less. No one thought anything of it, although you wouldn't even think of doing that today.


[quote:84f4e9cb7b="jakepkoe"]BTW, if you do throw an extra person in the back seat without any seat belt, should you notify Honda or your insurance company?[/quote:84f4e9cb7b]

Uh, don't you wait until after the catastrophic accident and then simply sue both Honda and your insurance company? Now THAT is the American way!!!

Personally, I like the idea of being able to seat 3 in the back. We got the E for several reasons: The way it looks, the way it drives, the roominess in the back seats, gas mileage(compared to our expedition), THE WAY IT LOOKS. :lol:

3 kids or 3 average height and size adults fits fine in the back.

John

Howdy Yawl,

Hey JC Whitney sells them thar seat belts, where how is your do-hickey.
When considering safety just think of all them knuckle head motorcycle folks without seat belts or helmets, no mufflers etc riding around. Their insurance rates should be astronomical to say the least.

Honda has trapped us in this vehicle in the next year or two you will see side air bags, heated side view mirrors, heated seats, auto-dimming mirrors all as options or packages just to make us upgrade. That kind of thinking stinks. Oh and they will probably put a third seat in the middle there and put a cup-holder on each side to give you a total of five cup-holders!

Wish the suspension was a little beefier as well. The current suspension feels as though it would bottom out on mid to large bumps if you hang a full brush bar on it.

Absolutely the safest way to add a lap belt is to follow the instructions from a lapbelt kit and JC Whitney has quite a few seatbelt kits. Drill holes in the spare tire well(watch the fuel filler pipe) and bolt it down. I wanted chest support for my kids so I got a rare RCI 2 inch wide 5 point junior racing harness from Dan at dansperformance.com. This is actually overkill for anyone because it it SFI rated for racing. The best way is to bolt the lap straps to the floor but I shackled it to the front seat hinges because they are metal. The fifth point goes down to the seat leg striker. The shoulder straps go to the child seat tether points and webbed together so it falls over the chest. Since the first installation I added racing shoulder pads (actual real use) over the metal chest buckles for comfort and A thicker seat pad.

Would I put someone elses kid in it. NO. I would put my kid in and put the guest in a Honda belt. Cannot sue myself. Would I take a guest in without a seat belt. No Way. Would I put my mother in law in it. Yes She has seen the world and Disneyland and my kids have not. I would just use the lap belt portion. The most important part of restraint. Racing seatbelts are put together one strap at a time. It takes my son 2 seconds to get out of it all. When he gets taller I have to get a head rest system like from a booster seat. Honda would have wanted a 3 point, headrest and bolted to the floor belt system for the USA.

I did this at my own risk. Not suggesting its proper or super strong at all.
<img src="http://image.internetimagingnetwork.com/getImage?pid=ph73806220364&size=IMAGE_RES_4&mod=2003-8-14-9:1:12">
<img src="http://image.internetimagingnetwork.com/getImage?pid=ph73806240366&size=IMAGE_RES_4&mod=2003-8-14-9:1:12">
<img src="http://image.internetimagingnetwork.com/getImage?pid=ph74743140366&size=IMAGE_RES_4&mod=2003-8-14-9:1:12">
<img src="http://image.internetimagingnetwork.com/getImage?pid=ph73806270369&size=IMAGE_RES_4&mod=2003-8-14-9:1:12">

Sounds like yet another great opportunity to use bungee cords and and cargo loops. Just bungee the kid to the back of one of the seats.

If done correctly, it should be fine. I wouldn't worry about it. Honestly, it's not all that complicated.

I started with a Bell lapbelt from Kragens.
Shackled to the front hinge with 1/2 inch shackle from Home Depot (2.25 inch inside diameter)
Used a Petzel 25cm mountain climbing sling from MEC(REI)to get past the seat bottom.
Linked to the lapbelt with 5/16 inch Quicklink chain loop.
Feed the lapbelt under the seat and then tuck it thru the seat joint to the front.

http://image.internetimagingnetwork.com/getImage?pid=ph73806300363&size=IMAGE_RES_4&mod=2003-8-14-9:1:12

I later replaced the lapbelt with a RCI 5 point junior racing harness 9410D. It is more comfortable 2 inch wide versus an uncomfortable 3 inch wide adult one. Used 1/4 inch quicklinks to the top child seat tethers (tight fit) for the shoulder straps. Used light 2 inch webbing and Double D rings to bring the shoulder straps over the chest properly (REI or child seat tether extender kit). One more 1/4 inch quicklink to tie the 5th crotch strap to the seat anchor. Shoulder pads from a tuner store for more comfort. A small seat pad. Replaced the ugly Home depot 1/2 inch schackles with a nice expensive stainless steel shackle from a marine store.

I love my E so much, but since it is our family's only vehicle, I am desperately trying to figure out a seating solution. Has anyone experimented with adding extra seats in the back (like the flip-down kind found in land crusiers or land rovers)? Resale value is not an issue, as we plan to keep our E in the family forever. However, with 2 kids and their friends, I just plain need more seating ----either permanent or removeable. Any suggestions are welcome.

First, the usual disclaimers...

1) The Element (in North America) has a low weight capacity rating, 675# including all occupants. So put adults in the existing four seats, and you've already exceeded the limit.

2) Additional seating means providing addtional restraint systems. Not a trivial proposition.

3) If, God forbid, something bad were to happen and somebody was hurt while sitting in your customized arrangement, your standing to recover damages or defend yourself regarding your passengers would be nil.

That said, you might want to take a look at http://www.littleseats.com. They have a line of add-in seating that may (or may not) be workable with the Element.

My immediate thought is that this solution would, in the end, not be cost-effective with the E. First thing is that there is simply not enough room behind the existing rear seat location for a vestigial third row. The remaining option then becomes removing the stock rear seats (and losing the flexibility of their special folding arrangement) and replacing them with two sets of the Littleseats, which are $800 a row when you include the restraint systems.

Adding the back (third) row would still remain a challenge since the entire rear deck is the spare tire cover. There would be some fabrication involved for the seat anchors, and the possible loss of access to the spare tire storage area.

As you can tell, my feeling about turning the E into a minivan is that it's not a good idea. It's a wonderful vehicle that has flexibility and utility out the wazoo, but handling "above capacity crowds" is not one of its finer points.

Try taking your E to an epolstry (sp?) shop and see if they can make you something to bridge the seats together in the back to make them more comfortable. That's about all I can think of. You wonthave a belt for the for one of the riders but if it doesnt bother you who cares?

Lerch: I think she is talking about 2 kids and friends. I am guessing seatbelts are a factor here.

MikeQBF: I have been wondering about the 675 lbs. According to the National Center for Health Statistic, the average weight for an adult male is 180. With 4 adult males, this comes to 720 lbs. What I am getting at is how can Honda get away with selling a car that can't even provide enough loading capacity for 4 average adult males in a 4 seater. I couldn't find any legal precedents where consumers challenge this but I am guessing there has to be something of the sort out there. 675 limit kind of makes you wonder about fitness for use. Where is an ambulance chaser when you need one.

>I have been wondering about the 675 lbs.

Lots o' discussion around here on this. I can vouch, however, that it's pretty real. We had a "full load" yesterday running to the store with friends along, and I can only describe the handling as "wallowing"... at best!

:shock:

You don't show where you are from, and judging from Mike's reply, I would assume that the laws in the states are pretty universal......
just as a trivial aside, and I don't usually recommend you do it, but you could if you really wanted to.....
here in Ontario, it's legal to carry passengers in the cargo area of a vehicle, as long as all seats with seatbelts are occupied.

Frankly I think an inward-facing folding seat would be very handy in the rear of the Element... a la Land Rover.

Not talking about something that would be used routinely for a family of 5, or for long trips, on the highway, etc... but rather, when my wife takes our 2 kids and the neighbor's 2 kids to the pool that's 1/2 mile away on neighborhood streets, having a legit seat for the fifth passenger, where all but one passenger is under 75 lb, would be nice. As it is, they lay the seats down flat and sit on them without working seat belts.

I've thought about trying to fit some kind of boat seat back there... finding a way to mount it to the "wall" is the big challenge. If it could be mounted firmly, then a seat belt (lap) could be put on the seat.

What someone needs to develop is a replacement seat for the Element that snaps into the factory rear seat mount (in place of the factory seat), but is an inward-facing bench seat with 2 lap seat belts, and folds up against the wall. This would be fine for carrying children around the neighborhood (way under the 675lb load limit even with 4 kids in the back and one adult driver) but I'd never really consider it safe enough for long trips, speeds exceeding 40mph, or driving with any load other than just a quartet of sub-80lb passengers.

krash: i agree completely... i would even be willing to take a non-split three seater bench option that would have to be hauled in and out... but it would let me carry three kids in the rear... it would be great for when my other car is in the shop or i anticipate an extra passenger... i sent an email and called littlepassenerseats.com about this very thing, not an extra seat, but a replacement option... maybe if we all gang-up on 'em they'll produce them... or if honda would just stop holding out and let me order the JDM seat, i'd be set...

>...inward-facing folding seat...

A/k/a "jumpseat". I had this thought in the back of my mind, too. If the intended audience was children, two will probably fit in the back, face-to-face. First place I'd go for jumpseats is to a boating supplies store.

It would take some fabrication of anchors since any usable structure is buried a couple of inches behind the plastic panels. You'd also want them removable since they would interfere with reclining the rear seats as well as folding up into the stowed position.

Thinking outside (inside?) the box... how about a replacement spare tire cover with the jumpseats attached? You'd modify the spare area to have beefy hold-down bolts for the modified cover. Adding/removing the "seat pack" would then be possible and wouldn't overly-modify the vehicle.

Hmmm... :thoughtful chin-rubbing emoticon:

[quote:17ab4da0ce=" "]>...inward-facing folding seat...

A/k/a "jumpseat". I had this thought in the back of my mind, too. If the intended audience was children, two will probably fit in the back, face-to-face. First place I'd go for jumpseats is to a boating supplies store.
[/quote:17ab4da0ce]

Yeah I had thought about that... boat seat would be the way to go, just a simple vinyl seat.

I also like the idea of a replacement spare tire cover that has the seats attached. I'm thinking though that the way to do this would be maybe to modify the existing cover with openings for anchors, pull the spare tire and chunk it, and make a frame from steel tubing to replace the spare tire and bolt into the spare tire well, use this to anchor the seats.

Of course the real way to go is to anchor them to the side walls and keep the spare tire arrangement as-is. Getting that to anchor and also be removeable and also be moderately attractive when it's removed (not leaving gaping holes in the interior panels) could be quite a feat of engineering. Step 1 would be to yank the interior panels and search for a way to attach them, step 2 is probably to figure out how to make a releasable attachment... big engineering exercise to say the least.

you could just use a replacement belt
http://www.safetycentral.com/resebe.html
and then use some carbiners to connect it to the LATCH anchors...
i will continue my pursuit of JDM seats...

my previous vehicle was a 1994 Nissan pickup truck with sideways foldup jump seats, that just might be adapatable to the back section of the Element for SHORT jaunts.

You could probably find spares available in a junk yard since the compact truck had a terrible crash rating, yet when I was working on a rebuilder I noticed the jumpseat area seemed to be gnerally the least wrecked area and should have plenty of them available by now. They used a simple lap belt that might be rigged up somehow with tie down points caribiners and spare belts someone mentioned.

They could probably be a permanent design change to the Element by Honda, thinking back to the small space they used in the Truck, but they would probably eliminate all that cool side storage.

Any modifications to the seating whether they be home made or done by an expert are a recipe for a 300 million dollar lawsuit towards Honda because of a defect in the design of the vehicle if ( god forbid ) anything happens.Sideways mounted seats may seem like a great idea....till someone smacks theire mellon against thet rear glass in an accident.

you won't fnd ME actually putting in a sideways jumpseat...nor do I recommend it, just pointing out the applicability of an EXISTING design.

I always did wonder how pickup trucks could get away with the honed down jumpseats of ANY kind, and since the Nissan actually had LESS room behind its "front" seats than the Element has behind its back seats, likelihood of head bashes are more likely on the "legal" existing design.

All that being said, even bombing down a potholed dirt road could result in head knocks with the sideways jumpseats. And also note I SOLD my truck, even though it was running like a top, with low mileage, and got the Element to seat 4, and figure with more than that, and we just take an extra car and pretend the combined gas mileage is like driving a Suburban or similar for those few times.

But if people are determined to squeeze in an extra person for short trips (comfort alone limits long trips) the sideways jump seat MIGHT be better than some options presented.

YMMV

But how do you select who rides without a seatbelt?

Love my E... But If I needed to carry 5 people it would be replaced very quickly...

Any jury rigged seat belt would be a great way to have many sleepless nights if it failed and caused any of the girls to be harmed. Not to mention the possible litigation.

I am sure you have the girls interest at heart or you would not have asked for a possible solution, but it may be time to let the E go...

Hey, James!

I'm sure that many of us "E" owners have asked this same question. It does seem POSSIBLE to do, but I'm not aware of anyone who has successfully done it.

One thing I was thinking about doing is to replace the rear seats with a bolt-in bench seat. But then you'd lose some of the functionality of your "E" because you could no longer tilt them up to the sides. Luckily, I haven't yet had the need to carry more than 4 people, but it would be a nice thing.

I hope you can find a solution so you don't have to sell your "E"!

Does anybody else have any suggestions? Pics?

LEGO

There've been discussions of getting the JDM (Japanese Domestic Market) rear seats, since the Japan model of the Element replaces the middle cupholders with padding and include a middle lap belt. Probably not a street legal solution in the US, but better than nothing.

However, even though the seat parts are presumably manufactured in the US and shipped (with the Es) over to Japan, it's not possible to get them from a Honda parts reseller in the US. They'd have to be purchased in Japan as replacement parts and shipped back over the US.

So far, no luck finding a source, though perhaps the Eagle Mark source might one day be able to get them?

-brendan

Some of you guys will find this of interest. I happened across two companies that make third row seats for SUVs. The seats are mainly for children, although the actual limit is on the size of the passenger. Some will seat an adult up to 5'9". They've sold over 13,000 seats without any reported failures (but several thank yous from people who said the seat protected their child in an accident), say the seats meet all Federal Motor Vechicle Safety standards, have been evaluated by the California State Auto Association, oh heck, it's all there on the site:

http://littlepassengerseats.com/

Anyway, to get to the point, I wrote this company and another that I found, requesting that they please make a replacement seat for the rear seat of the Element. Either a bench, or a split like the Japanese rear seat. I got a response, which wasn't exactly what I was hoping for, but still...it could work if I can't get what I really want. Here's the response:
______________________________
At the moment my grandfather is in the middle of designing a side facing
fold up one person seat for the back of the Elements. He has already
designed the seat prototype, but is working on the mounting system. I will
add you to our waiting list and contact you when he is finished with the
mounting system.

Richell
little passenger seats, inc.
_____________________________

So it sounds like a little jump seat for the back, and it sounds like I'm not the first to ask them, seeing as there's a waiting list. I had her add my name, although I'm still hoping for a rear seat replacement.

I read on here a long time ago someone had seen a man with a jump seat like this in his Element, I think they saw him in a parking lot, but didn't ask him about it. That made me think somebody somewhere must be doing something...

I rear bench replacement would be sweet (I've already expressed this in another thread). :twisted:

I would be afraid of putting a kid in a jump seat in the trunk area. The car is just not desighned to take a rear impact with a jump seat installed. To many crazy drivers out there. Just my Humble Opinion.

keep us updated.... :-)

this sounds intersting....wish it could just be 1 long seat all teh way across...

but take what you can get

I'd take a bench replacement that "flipped" 90 degrees to allow me to sit in the back of the E, facing outward.... perfect for drive in's and such. ;)

I rear bench replacement would be sweet (I've already expressed this in another thread). :twisted:

Yeah, I'm not giving up on the bench yet. Or maybe even a split bench, so that we'd still be able to put the seats up. We went to the drive-in last week with our 3yo and 1yo. When we got there we took the car seats out and put the back seats up to give them room to play, and dance, as it turns out. They really seemed to like THGTTG. But I'd take a flat bench replacement for the rear seat in a heartbeat.

I'm on the list so I can get a look at the jumpseat when it's ready, but that's just not going to work for me, as far as I can tell. I wouldn't put a kid back there, although my son would probably love it. As for an adult, they can make their own decision on whether they would want to ride back there.

These guys to custom bench seats, don't know if this is what you are looking for.

http://racecraftseats.com/seats.asp

Cargo area seating? How about a couple of bean bag chairs?

Yes, please read that and pay CLOSE attention to the safety concerns.
IF you absolutely need it check the following link.


http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Odyssey&bhcp=1&BrowserDetected=True

Why only seating for four? Because it was made for guys like me that need plenty of utility and drive passengerless when the girlfriend is not around.

:grin:

Honda should let folks know ahead...
Do you normally close your eyes, spin in a circle and point to choose the vehicle you are going to buy? The sad thing is that top secret/classified weight limit rating that Honda is keeping from you just so happens to be clearly labeled on a white sticker right there on the inside edge of that thing called a front door. So you've been passing right by it every time you get in and out of the vehicle.
I'm not sure if I should even attempt to calm your shaky nerves or just recommend that you go ahead and trade it in another "mystery" vehicle. Which also will probably come equipped with a manual and strange labels providing it's specifications.

We traded in our 2000 CR-V after 5 1/2 years of great service, and think we may have had 5 people in it ONCE. Not designed for 5 people, 2 adults and 3 kids *not in boosters* maybe but how many people have that happen?

The Element was designed and built, weight limits published/etc, if it doesn't fit your needs, don't buy it. Get an Escalade instead.

Not a problem, I have had 3 cars that were only supposed to seat 2 in the back: Sunbird convertible, VW Cabrio, and a VW Westy camper. I bought aftermarket seat belts and bolted 'em in. Any people of a size that you can fit 3 across are going to be light enough to not overload the vehicle.
For the E, it's even easier. Use a couple of carabiners and clip the aftermarket belts to the seat connectors in the floor. Use REAL carabiners, not those things that hold the back seats up. Any locking 'biner is good for 20 or 25 kNewtons of force (4000-5000 lbf).
And you can put your Crazy Creek seat in the middle to cover the split. Just like being at the climbing crag!

Well, not yet anyway, but I contact the manufacturer of "Little Seats" that sell aftermarket seats for the rear of SUV's and begged for an Element version. When child #3 comes, it would be alot cheaper to buy a seat than to buy a new car, and I love my Element so I'm crossing my fingers. If anyone else would be interested, I figure the more people who write the more they will consider it. The currently have a CRV version that is linked below. What I told them was this:

1) You could make a version that removes the two back seats completely and replace it with a bench version that could hold 3 child safety seats or 3 really skinny people. They could lock into the existing system on the Element so they would be secure.

2) A front facing level 2 child seat (like a 12 month old sized kid) fits perfectly behind the front cup console and between the back bucket seats. I sized in mine and it fits perfect there with the base lifting the child's feet high enough they can sit normal. There is alot of room in that space between the suicide doors. If there was a mounting plate you could secure to the floor and then connect to the child seat, it would be logical that it would be strong. Biggest kid in the "floor" seat, next two size children in the bucket seat. Family of 5 to go!

3) Not sure if there is actually room, but how cool would a seat for the rear cargo area be? It fits in the CRV, what about the Element? I guess I worry about rear impact, but can't that happen in the Suzuki XL7 as well or any other small SUV for that matter?

As long as the seat doesn't snap, it should be as sturdy as what a manufacturer uses, then again, I don't want to gamble with children!

Tell me what you think!

Link to manufacturer:
http://www.littleseats.com/honda_crv.htm

Article in Paper:
http://www.modbee.com/business/story/10170735p-10988141c.html

Although I only have two kids, I had imagined that by removing both rear car seats, you could then put into place one of two configurations:

(1) Two bench seats that run length wise along the back which anchor into the the original back seat mount and then perhaps a mounting plate and the rear end. (Think troop carrier, where the rear occupants face each other).

(2) The other configuration that might work is a U-shaped bench that would mount into the rear seat brackets and then anchor and the bottom of the U.

Clearly in either case you have to consider restraint systems might be limited to lap belts rather than 3-point harnesses and you sacrifice cargo capacity. But, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Just my opinion here guys, but as the father of two... no way in hell I put any other seating configuration in this vehicle other than what Honda has in it already. Too many idiot drivers out there to rear end you while not paying attention and that space in back between the seats and the rear of the E is there for a reason.

Yes, I agree, nothing is worth risking my kids and I would never do that! The back seat idea is a little scary due to the room and rear end collisions, I'll give you that!

On the other side of the coin, how many years have we seen the auto industry botch design that has lead to the death of consumers? The automakers factory setup is not always ordained by God himself. If so, there wouldn't have been blown tires, rollovers, gas tank explosions, electrical fires, seat backs snapping, doors flying open, faulty seat belt buckles, and on and on and on.

An aftermarket seat that is well engineered, well designed and strong is not automatically an unsafe addon piece-o-junk! Let's be fair here.

Contemplating design modifications does not mean that ANY safety features be compromised, just that perhaps there is a way to safely engineer ia modification. As a father, I am certainly not advocating any modifcation that is not as safe or safer than exists now. (So I'll put the circular saw and plywood away).

Certainly, it may prove to be economically or mechanical impractical to make seatiing modifications, but there is no harm in entertaining the prospects.

Not a problem, I have had 3 cars that were only supposed to seat 2 in the back: Sunbird convertible, VW Cabrio, and a VW Westy camper. I bought aftermarket seat belts and bolted 'em in. Any people of a size that you can fit 3 across are going to be light enough to not overload the vehicle.
For the E, it's even easier. Use a couple of carabiners and clip the aftermarket belts to the seat connectors in the floor. Use REAL carabiners, not those things that hold the back seats up. Any locking 'biner is good for 20 or 25 kNewtons of force (4000-5000 lbf).
And you can put your Crazy Creek seat in the middle to cover the split. Just like being at the climbing crag!

Like me, there must be hundreds of people who have done this. I would say bolting to the spare tire area is better. The seat anchors do not have ideal positions for belts. I myself D-shackled a belt system to the seat hinges. D-shackles from a marine store. Use the system once in awhile. A face saver.

The real point is that Honda wants you to upgrade to a CRV or Pilot for more seats. I know you don't want one but that is the Honda story. The CRV is the real enemy of the Element, not another manufacturer. CRV first, Element last.

The version of the Element that is EXPORTED--from Ohio--to Japan has seating for three in the back. That seat slides fore & aft, but is not removable.
Honda explained--gently--that it would hard to fit three big butts across the width of the E, but that isn't as big a problem in Japan as in America. :twisted:

G.J.

Would it be possible to install a child seat in the middle of the rear seats, in a way that would not compromise safety?

There are these clips / thingies that's used to attach to a child seat. Both rear seat have 2 of these clips.

How about using the left clip of the right seat, and the right clip of the left seat, and attach the child seat to them? In the event of a crash, the seat would stay right locked in, not?

I'd like to be able to carry 4 adults, plus a 2- year old child. I have an Element already, so arguing that I should get a van or larger suv or larger car is out.
I like my E, and would like to continue to use my E.

As an alternative, does anyone know of any aftermarket rear bench I could install that would provide 3 seats?

Extremely much appreciated for any kind of constructive response...

yea, bout that

Im not sure its very safe, im not sure i would want the safety of my kids compromised.I reckon it would be safer to put your kid in the back rather than put him/ her in a seat that could easily slip out ( due to the plastic).

I dont recomend that you do put your kid in the back :) but im just using it as an example yup

Have fun with that

I think if you research the child seats, you'll find that "The Latch" system is safe if the two latchs are no more than 16.5" appart. If I remember correctly the two latchs in the middle are about 21" appart, we chose to put the child seat behind the driver.

a1mint: the Element is specifically designed for four (4) American or Canadian occupants. For anyone here to give you help or advice to the contrary would put them (and us) at risk of lawsuits, so let's not even go there! This had been brought up and addressed many, many times. If you intended to seat five, you bought the wrong vehicle.

Well c'mon...

we've driven ~30K in our Element in the last year and month or so. Now we have 2 kids and the vast majority of the time it's the four of us or fewer. However, occasionally it is necessary for one reason or another to haul an extra kid... one of the kids' friends or whatever.

Now all this blowhard junk about safety ... not saying whether the current idea in this post of putting a child safety seat in an area other than actually in a seat, I'd have to say, get real folks. I mean, it was not very long ago that rear seats didn't commonly have shoulder belts to begin with. Even reasonably modern cars with bench front seats have a front seat middle seat position with only a lap belt. Certainly a lap belt alone in the middle "seat" position in the rear of the E is much more safe than the alternative, which is to just have some kid sit there in the middle on the cup holders with no seat belt of any kind.

So IMHO give up all the hand-wringing about not-safe this and that. I mean, in TX it's not even required by law to have rear-seat passengers WEAR a seat belt and clearly the rear seat is a more safe place to sit than the front. There are perfectly safe, reasonable ways to add a legitimate seat belt to the center position in the rear seat. Nobody's going to do any long distance cross country trips this way because it's impossible to sit in that spot for any length of time. But when we're talking about having to drop my neighbor's kid off on our way somewhere and driving 3 blocks at <30mph in a neighborhood, it's a totally reasonable thing to do to add a seatbelt for such an occasion.

Well c'mon......Now all this blowhard junk about safety ... not saying whether the current idea in this post of putting a child safety seat in an area other than actually in a seat, I'd have to say, get real folks. I mean, it was not very long ago that rear seats didn't commonly have shoulder belts to begin with. Even reasonably modern cars with bench front seats have a front seat middle seat position with only a lap belt. Certainly a lap belt alone in the middle "seat" position in the rear of the E is much more safe than the alternative, which is to just have some kid sit there in the middle on the cup holders with no seat belt of any kind.

So IMHO give up all the hand-wringing about not-safe this and that. I mean, in TX it's not even required by law to have rear-seat passengers WEAR a seat belt ...

Not sure what your point is here.

Because we didn't have laws about safety in the past it is okay to ignore them now?

Even though lap belts have been shown to cause lots of broken spines (particularly with children) we should install them even though the manufacturer didn't?

Texas doesn't require rear seat passengers to be belted at all - this is a GOOD idea?

Sorry, I have to agree with other posters. The Element was designed for 4 passengers - don't mess with it.

Load 'em up, move 'em out, flip 'em over.......Rawhide!


http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6708/overloaded3dw.jpg


But when we're talking about having to drop my neighbor's kid off on our way somewhere and driving 3 blocks at <30mph in a neighborhood, it's a totally reasonable thing to do to add a seatbelt for such an occasion.
Seriously, if you have adults that agree to use your ghetto seatbelt contraption it's one thing. But using your kids or the neighbor's to test the limits of your DIY safety restraint skills you won't get much applause here. Plus if it's ONLY 3 freakin' blocks away then why not just drive back home to pick up the other passenger? Hell, I can walk the 3 blocks and back quicker than it takes sometimes to strap in a kid, let alone 2.......oh, and the poor kid in the middle with the jump rope tied around his waist.

PVR has a point.
I think back to the stupid crap that was done when i was a kid....

I remember riding in the bed of a 1978 Ford F100 going to the Wild Animal Park when I was about ten.
There was a dip in the highway so large everyone in the bed went airborn.
Well, for a split second anyway, as long as it took to smash our heads into the camper shell
and bounce back down onto that nice lumpy steel bed.

I also have fond memories of playing with a jug of mercury that my dad had lying around.
I'd get a nice pool of it and pour it from hand to hand.
Now you break a fricken thermometer and they evacuate the building.

Good times.

I'm lucky I don't look like this... :twisted:

I have no idea what the hell my parents were thinking.
:-P

According to most statistics you would be far safer driving cross country with a modified 5th seat belt then to drive those 3 blocks <30mph. I guess you have never heard the stats about most accidents occur within 5 blocks of your home.

There are a few problems with wanting to add a 5th person to the Element seating capacity.


The rear seat is located in the narrowest section of the Element. This doesn't afford enough room for 3 tushies, let alone 3 tushies of child size.
The only place to easily mount a lap belt would be to connect each half to the latch of the outer seats. This would require either getting a longer bolt to replace the existing bolt or using the existing bolt and having it work for double the thickness.
There are a number of problems with doing this. The first of which is this connection was not designed for securing 2 bodies in an accident.
Using the OEM bolt means you wouldn't have enough threads connected to the car.
Using an aftermarket bolt means you might not know the shear force it will take to break the bolt. Thus the seatbelt could fail...

There is no head restraint in the middle "seat", so unless the 3rd person in the back is VERY short... this is whiplash waiting to happen.
I'm not even going to discuss the merits of the shoulder belt that is not becoming standard on all 3 seating positions.
Part of seat belt design and how it works is making certain the person that is belted into their seat is actually in the correct seating position. This means sitting in the seat centered and having the seatbelt across the lap and the belt across the shoulder. If you try to cram in a 3rd person then that person wouold have to have a tusy that is less than 10" wide... then you are talking a toddler and they need to be in a car seat. Car seats are much wider than 10".
I know some of what I wrote was rehashed from what others wrote, but I wanted to try and emphasize the safety aspect.

How safe is safe? I’ve wrestled with this issue for sometime.

I’m a child of the fifties. I remember Uncle Joe coming by in his Hudson convertible and taking six or eight kids out on a real fast ride, all us kids standing up on the back seat, having a great time. I remember Dominic Zulpo (Rich’s father) giving us rides on the back of his three wheel motorcycle that was just an old police bike with just a box that maybe had a hand hold to grip. “HOLD ON!!”. I remember riding miles and miles in the back of a pickup truck to go to a lake for a fishing trip. I remember station wagons that had those great rear facing seats right over the gas tank. I remember a trip from Chicago to Washington DC in a 1960 Ford when , if one of us kids weren’t laying up on the rear window shelf, it was loaded with luggage. I remember that in my 1963 Chevy the seatbelts were tucked into the upholstery of the car so they weren’t such a pain in the ass. Doubt they were ever used.

So my reaction to all this PC safety stuff is WTF, why worry.?

But then I remember the speeds. There was only a tiny interstate system. Most trips were done at about 50 MPH and 60 seemed fast. Sure, the cars could go fast, but the roads and the background of the drivers tended to slow everything down. I remember the cars. There might have been plastic in a 1956 Chevy, but it sure wasn’t in the body, frame or engine. Those cars were tanks! Steel, Baby, no “dings” in those buggies! And I remember the average trip length. My Dad had a thirty mile commute. That was considered LONG! I know people that packed lunch to make a thirty mile round trip go shopping

So that was then and now is now. Cars are made of wafer thin metal and plastic everywhere. If you don’t drive 70MPH on the interstate, better move out of the way. We all know people who are in their cars 100+ miles a day and I personally know people are commuting 200+ miles per day. And I always wear my seatbelt, even if I think the Element shoulder belt tension is too strong. Guess you should error on the safe side and not mess with the middle seat idea.


My 2 cents.

...So my reaction to all this PC safety stuff is WTF, why worry.?...

This comment is not directed to, or at, you Irv but since you bring it up...

Isn't it convenient that anytime you want to discredit something all you have to do is label it "PC" and everyone will think that you have said something profound. In terms of car safety, much of what passes into law is a product of compromise - the law usually ends up being what the market (read auto manufacturers) will bear. It is hardly the product of "safety nazis" (another convenient pejorative) having their way with an unsuspecting and defenseless public. For many years car manufacturers have had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, into protecting their customers from the dangers inherent in their products. Seat belts are a great example.

There is a good reason for not mucking with your car's seating and safety systems - it is not political correctness it is public safety. Cars are dangerous enough without compromising the safety systems that it has taken years to include. Unfortunately there are too many places, like Texas as regards its seat belt legislation, where legislators don't give a damn about the public's safety.

I have resisted weighing in this thread because I have "played" with my seating arrangements.

However, I am heartened and pleased to see that people are asking questions and thinking about safety seriously. These people and their families should live longer lives.

Now tell me why 30% of the population will not even buckle up? Why do you need a seat belt law? (Please tell me why people won't leave living in a cesspool) Why there are no seatbelts in buses and subways? Why an ex-princess in the back of limo did not wear a seatbelt?

Wow. I work in an ER and am absolutely amazed at how people will justify their willing disregard for safety. Sure, we didn't always have seatbelts. Or helmets. Or airbags. Or road signs. Or driver's tests. BUT WE DO NOW! Jimminy Cricket what is wrong with people?!
OF COURSE you could be hit going slowly in your own sweet neighborhood. You could kill your child or your neighbor's child. That child could become a projectile and kill you or your front seat passenger too.
Believe it or not 2 weeks ago we had a couple who were going to a get together with their infant in a car seat. On the way, the baby wouldn't stop crying. So mom gave him a bottle. Kept crying. So as they entered the neighborhood that they were headed for she took the baby out to nurse him. You guessed it they were t-boned, that one month old lingered in the ICU for five days and then passed away. Mom is still undergoing surgeries.
Don't you think all their justifications for that behavior have disintegrated?

DON'T try to jury-rig a belt. Honestly, the girl is safer not being belted at all as opposed to being belted by a homemade belt to a seat that doesn't exist.

Dude, get another vehicle. Rigging another place to sit could be really dangerous! :evil:

I would like to see at least one jump seat in the very back, that might solve the 5th person problem?

What mutant dwarf moron or small child are you going to be able to coerce into sitting in the cargo area? Crawl in the back and close the tailgate and hatch and see if anyone other than Webster would be able to, even remotely, sit back there. Notice I didn't even add "comfortably" sit back there. Even if you could fit someone back there in a seating or fetal position where is there room for the jumpseat they're supposed to sit on? Companies do make add-on jumpseats and bench seat for kids in vehicles with MUCH larger cargo areas and even the CRV I believe has one available for it but the Element just doesn't really have the depth for it. Is there really a 5th seat problem for a 4 seater vehicle? I mean do the S2000 owners complain about a 3rd seat problem?

I want to send out a challenge for anyone to post a couple pics *while parked* of a fairly normal sized adult sitting in a side facing or jumpseat manner in the cargo area BEHIND both installed and upright rear seats. I'd like to see maybe a shot with the tailgate and hatch fully open and an interior shot from over the rear seats with the hatch fully closed along with a smile on the 5th passenger's face. Just purely out of curiosity and so others can get a visual of how a seating arrangement like this would look. I know the pics someone had posted of the center positioned children's carseat basically shattered any ideas of fitting a row of 3 back there. Or having 2 adults on either side of the carseat. I mean, if you're smuggling dead bodies, immigrants or clowns then sure there's plenty of room to stack 'em up and pack 'em in if safety isn't a concern but I just don't see how a "normal" seating arrangement like this can work. I know people have had a total of maybe 6 or even 7 people on board for short, quick, down the street trips, and tho it would easily get you ticketed, it can "work." But for a reliable, safe and long term or everyday additonal seating options.....well, it doesn't exist.

I drove a kingcab pickup (S10) for years, with a center facing jump seats. My son, in effect, grew up riding back there. At one point I replaced one seat with a boat seat - it was still about as narrow as the jump seats, but with better padding.

One or two center facing jump seats would fit in back and hold kids ok, BUT, securing them and their seatbelts would take some work. I'm guessing it would be best to replace the spare tire cover/cargo floor with a metal structure that is bolted to the subframe and/or spare tire well, and then attach the seats to that.

Also keep in mind that anyone riding in the far back would be more vulnerable in a rear end crash.

By safety and comfort standards of 30 years ago such seats are doable, but are not practical given current standards.

paulj

If you try to sneak a jumpseat passenger into the rear cargo area, then at least one of the "legitimate" passengers in the regular rear seats would have to put the back of their seat in a bolt-upright position to make room for the jumpseat passenger, thereby making their own ride totally miserable.

I don't have a pic but just a few weeks ago I had 2 full size adults back there. They were back there because the other 4 seats were filled with 4 full sized adults. Granted, the two in back were women but one was 5'10" and the other was 5'7"...so they weren't tiny.

We only had to drive like 20 miles. They said it was plenty comfortable and roomy for that short trip other than the floor being a bit hard for the bums.

And on a side not, I exceeded the max cargo capaticy by like 300lbs and the E drove just fine. The suspension was not noticeable taxed and when I stepped out to look at the car it did not appear much lower than stock. I say poo to the 6xx lb capacity after trying it out.

Take out the back seats completely, and you can fit 10 people back there...so what's the problem? Safety? Nah, come on, you don't need safety...after all, jumpseats that face sideways are just as unsafe, even if the occupant is buckled in, so you might as well just take out the seats all together....or.....you could buy a CR-V. :grin:

I throw an extra person riding bitch in the back seat quite often. Nobody complaines too much either, sure its cramped, but its better than walking.

Keep in mind that unless you are also buckled in the center you are basicly a balistic missle that will either crush your children to death, throw you through the windshield or break the backs of those in the front seats!!!

Its stupid that "they" tell us that the safest spot for a child is in the rear center seat then dont make manufacturers make it mandatory!

It would seem to make sense that you could easily creat a 4 adult 1 child car:
A child seat could be hooked onto the 2 center LATCH hooks and an adult or a combination of additional child seats could be on either side.
To do this would be SIMPLE!! Add a 3rd child tether point to center or create a "Y" belt adaptor. Also reinforce the existing LATCH bars.

It wouldnt be a true 5 passenger vehicle since the center would be child only but it would be an improvement! Some may say that the seats then arent engineered for 3 people but with proper weight limitation info it wouldnt be a problem. Think about it... 3 booster convertible chairs have 80lb weight limited and they weigh 30 lbs for the chair=110 lbs total for each seating position. Even times 3 thats only 330lbs. Average adult weighs 150lbs....seats probably designed for fat Americans....230lbs a piece x 2= 560lbs weight design! Probably WELL less than design specs ! My guess is that the Japanese seats have the SAME engineering specs but since most Japanese arent Obese they can get away with it :)

To do this would be SIMPLE!!
Try plopping 2 fat ass American adults around that center child-seat.
One of three things need to happen:


Have both rear passengers surgically remove one ass-cheek and probably half a hip, and just to be safe one leg.
Only transport the anorexic, POW's, Ethiopians....basically very thin people.
Or find a skinnier child-seat (this ain't gonna happen......they're all big as sh!t)It's just the fact that with the Element, the rear seats are positioned BETWEEN the rear wheels instead of in front of them as they are on most other vehicles.

I'm still waiting for someone to post a picture of 2 normal sized adults sitting on either side of an average child-seat. Just to prove me wrong.

Something that nobody is taking into consideration with the Element and why it was designed the way it was... This is a vehicle designed for the 20something crowd, those that live an active lifestyle, not those getting married and having kids. They designed the seats so they can only fit 2 on the back. They never intended for this to turn into a "soccer mom" vehicle where you need to haul 2 adults and 3 kids. If they even considered a family as a possible purchaser of the Element then the design would have leaned much more towards a minivan and not what it turned out to be.

So far there has been not a single safe way to incorporate 3 people into the back of the Element where all 3 are properly secured by a seatbelt. The only way I can ever see this happening is for someone to reengineer the rear seats to the point of where they won't be able to fold up, the plastic panels covering the hinges would be eliminated and the outer people would be sitting halfway on top of the rear tires. You would need to rebuild the seat as well as the backrest for 3 people and remount the seatbelt hardware as well. It would take a tremendous amount of engineering to get the seatbelt angles correct as well as finding correct anchor points for the seat belts... is there a place to mount a center shoulder belt? That should also be taken into consideration.

If you want a Honda that can carry a family of 5, then get a Pilot, CRV or Odyssey if you don't want an Accord or Civic.

So far there has been not a single safe way to incorporate 3 people into the back of the Element where all 3 are properly secured by a seatbelt. The only way I can ever see this happening is for someone to reengineer the rear seats to the point of where they won't be able to fold up, the plastic panels covering the hinges would be eliminated and the outer people would be sitting halfway on top of the rear tires. You would need to rebuild the seat as well as the backrest for 3 people and remount the seatbelt hardware as well. It would take a tremendous amount of engineering to get the seatbelt angles correct as well as finding correct anchor points for the seat belts... is there a place to mount a center shoulder belt? That should also be taken into consideration.

Actually, if you check out the Japanese Honda Element, you'll see that the rear seats were designed/engineered for to hold three people. The difference is that in Japan they were targeting a different 'demo' than in the U.S.

The Japanese element has a completely different rear seat. It is in front of the rear axle so they can fit 3 people across. Those seats are not the same as in the North American model. The Japanese seats also can move fore/aft, something our seats can't do.

As I said you would need to reengineer the rear seats to fit 3 people, whether it is 3 kids, or 2 adults and 1 kid... sure it can be done, but there would be very little left over from the stock seats when you were finished.

We all know Honda targeted the 20's with the E, and end up selling to the 30's, married with kids. Even Honda knows that (it is in some demographic reports I saw about E owners from Honda).

So, it is totally valid for the "30-something, married with kids" to complain about a design which targeted "20-something, active lifestyle".

how is it a valid complaint? It is the same as someone buying a Porsche 911 and saying your kids have no leg room. Sure there are rear seats in most Porsche's sold... but they were never intended to be used by humans, only there for an insurance discount. How many people complain that the S2000 is only a 2 seater? Do parents with 2 or more kids complain about the S2000 and how you can't bring your kids to school or anywhere else for that matter? No, they purchase a vehicle that was designed/intended for what they need to get from it.

If you need 5+ seating then don't buy an Element. Just because Honda's design and marketing departments missed the target for the Element for the most part doesn't mean they should redesign it to suit the market they did hit... if they still don't want the market and still want the 20something crowd; which they obviously do with their current ad campaign.

When you see a commercial showing a Mom with a couple kids at a store then that is the day everyone can complain about the Element only being a 4 seater. But until that time you have nothing to complain about.

The Japanese rear seat doesn't fold up, so it doesn't have the hinges on the outboard sides, and so it's also wider than our version.

I took pics of my rear seat with JUST ONE booster seat in the middle----there is no way even a kid could sit on either side of it, no way, plus you can't even get to the buckles. I'll repost the pics when I get home since they disappeared with the last upgrade.


No, it just that it's physically possible to fit 3 average sized Japanese where normally only 2 Americans would fit. They're a smaller people. In fact I have a family of 5 living in my back pocket as I type this.

"Konichiwa, Mrs. Devilman Lady, sorry about those beans last nite!"

Just because Honda's design and marketing departments missed the target for the Element for the most part doesn't mean they should redesign it to suit the market they did hit...

Good point.

More importantly though, there would be a lot of added manufacturing and R&D costs associated with a change like this. Obviously Honda realizes that this vehicle may still suit the 20 something crowd and they are trying a different marketing approach (Which is ultimately much cheaper than making production changes to a vehicle)

The Japanese rear seat doesn't fold up, so it doesn't have the hinges on the outboard sides, and so it's also wider than our version.
Nope, the Japanese rear seats DO split and fold up like ours only they can't be taken out unless you un-bolt them from their side mount.

Go here and click on the SEAT ARRANGE options to see an animation of how the Japanese seats work.

http://www.honda.co.jp/ELEMENT/2005/view/interior/


http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9962/japseats7de.jpg

Here are a few shots showing a child's carseat in it's normal position along with it placed in the center and showing how much room is available on either side. If both adults do the "one cheak sneak" and sit sort of....well, half-assed on the seat you can barely fit.


http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8628/seat14kx.jpg

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/463/seat21ng.jpg

http://img465.imageshack.us/img465/3580/seat38xc.jpg

aEsop, yes Honda could redesign the back seat of the Element to accomodate 3 across... but it isn't cost effective to do that with the current model. The sales don't back up a redesign, which is what you are talking about here. Not only is it redesigning the interior and how the seats themselves are designed, but also how they connect to the interior, then you have the retooling of the factory for that... it could easily run into the millions to make this "minor" change. If they were thinking of doing this I can't see it being done before the new model in 2009. You never see a major mid-model change like this from any car company. They would probably have to have the vehicle recertified for sale because of the change to it.

I can't see them just slapping in the Japanese market rear seats because they offer much less rear leg room, something that more people would probably complain about than those wanting 3 across in the back. I know I wouldn't want the Japanese market rear seats if they can only move fore/aft and flip up... I take my rear seats out all the time, without being able to do that the Element to me loses quite a bit of its versatility/usability.

The center rear is safer for an infant in a car seat for the same reason that it is safer for a larger child or adult - greater distance from the sides which get deformed in a side impact. The biggest danger in a side impact is the motion of the person with the passenger cage. In that sense, someone in a child seat is safer, since the seat itself restrains their movement, especially the sideways movement of the child's head.

If Honda were to engineer the Element for maximum safety for all occupants, it would be a two seater - two racing style seats in a row down the middle.

paulj

use the right side seatbelt and plug it into the left side recepticle. then do the opposite for the left side seatbelt. if the trip is a little long take your blankie out of the bunggies behind the back passenger seat to cover the cup holders to the middle person has a soft spot. the one in the middle will need to be narrow!

aEsop, yes Honda could redesign the back seat of the Element to accomodate 3 across... but it isn't cost effective to do that with the current model. The sales don't back up a redesign, which is what you are talking about here. Not only is it redesigning the interior and how the seats themselves are designed, but also how they connect to the interior, then you have the retooling of the factory for that... it could easily run into the millions to make this "minor" change. If they were thinking of doing this I can't see it being done before the new model in 2009. You never see a major mid-model change like this from any car company. They would probably have to have the vehicle recertified for sale because of the change to it.

I can't see them just slapping in the Japanese market rear seats because they offer much less rear leg room, something that more people would probably complain about than those wanting 3 across in the back. I know I wouldn't want the Japanese market rear seats if they can only move fore/aft and flip up... I take my rear seats out all the time, without being able to do that the Element to me loses quite a bit of its versatility/usability.

If Honda redesign the seats..... we end up CRV.

For a bench seat to fold out of the way, it either fold forward (like CRV) or fold into the floor (like Odyssey). Well, E's floor is low so the Odyssey method is out. To fold forward, the suicide doors won't make sense anymore because the seats would block the entrance once folded, so we need to add the B-pillar back....the conclusion is, if you want the 5th seat, get the CRV.

From the animation, I don't see the center seat. Was it (the Japanese E can seat 5) a myth?
There's no actual "center" seat. The Japanese seats come without the center cupholders and plastic and rubber center strip. By doing this it allows for one (small) person to sit straddling the "crack". Think of it as a bench seat that splits into 2 halves. There is also a center seatbelt for the middle person so yes it is intended for a possible 5th passenger.
But yes it indeed does exist. We've seen Honda pictures of it, Japanese Element owners have sent pictures of it and I've also asked the Honda reps and engineers about it at the East Liberty, Ohio Honda plant where both the US and JDM Elements are made.

Then another quesiton - in the animation, to fold the back seats up, the back seat had to slide forward first - what was that about?

Then another quesiton - in the animation, to fold the back seats up, the back seat had to slide forward first - what was that about?
I'm not so sure if the rear seats have to slide forward to fold up. As far as I know, the handles and dimensions around the seat are the same as ours I think it may just be showing that tho you can't remove the seats, they do have the ability to slide forward and back. Notice in the animation that with the seat slid all the way forward and then folded up that most of the seat cushion covers the side entryway of the suicide doors. My guess is that if the seats were to be positioned all the way back to the standard position of our US Element's seats that the Japanese seats would still be able to fold up and lock into place using the grab handles. But I'm really not sure.

Any speed shop can sell you a belt, that Exceeds the standard Honda belts. Hell they were made for the RACE TRACK. The Bolting system is easy to do. It can be installed In a wide range of Cars, safely. The cost is from about 140$ to 500$ WITH Full double sholder harnis, if you want to go Full boat. Not needed on the street. After all, you won't be going over 160 mph any time soon in your E.

More importantly though, there would be a lot of added manufacturing and R&D costs associated with a change like this. Obviously Honda realizes that this vehicle may still suit the 20 something crowd and they are trying a different marketing approach (Which is ultimately much cheaper than making production changes to a vehicle)

I would think that most of those costs have already been incurred in the development and production of the Japanese E. Actually, it cost them more to produce two different versions; two different sets of parts. And, I believe that production of the Japanes E has ceased as I no longer see it available on the Japan Honda site. The manufacturing dies etc. are still there, they need only send them or the parts to the U.S.

Alot of the suggestions for placement and restraint of a fifth passenger have pretty much been questionable from a safety standpoint...but, I think I may have found a way to safely carry a fifth passenger::shock:

Any speed shop can sell you a belt, that Exceeds the standard Honda belts. Hell they were made for the RACE TRACK. The Bolting system is easy to do. It can be installed In a wide range of Cars, safely. The cost is from about 140$ to 500$ WITH Full double sholder harnis, if you want to go Full boat. Not needed on the street. After all, you won't be going over 160 mph any time soon in your E.

Speed shops sell belts intended to replace the stock belts.
The problem is there are no mounting points for a fifth belt.
Creating your own mounting points in the E definitely does not exceed the safety afforded by the stock Honda belts.

Transporting 4 kids and leaving one without a belt or worse yet, in the cargo area as someone suggested
is just plain irresponsible and dangerous.
You want to play with your own safety go ahead, but don't make stupid decisions with the safety of kids.

Here's a solution.
Rig up an accelerator, brake pedal, and steering wheel on the roof.
Sit on the roof rack with no belt and let one of the kids sit in the driver seat properly retrained.
That way, in the event of a crash, the driver's ignorance is eliminated from the gene pool instead of an innocent fourth kid
who was allowed to ride in a vehicle designed to carry three passengers.

:roll:

Years ago I rode in the open back seat of a jeep (possibly of WWII vintage) to a rock climbing location in southern California mountains. To keep myself from sliding back and forth as we went around corners, I rigged a seat belt - of sorts - with my 1" climbing webbing.

It isn't hard to find webbing that is strong enough. Finding a good anchors is harder - both in terms of strength and position. The rear seat mounting points are a start.

paulj

Speed shops sell belts intended to replace the stock belts.
The problem is there are no mounting points for a fifth belt.
Creating your own mounting points in the E definitely does not exceed the safety afforded by the stock Honda belts.

Transporting 4 kids and leaving one without a belt or worse yet, in the cargo area as someone suggested
is just plain irresponsible and dangerous.
You want to play with your own safety go ahead, but don't make stupid decisions with the safety of kids.

Here's a solution.
Rig up an accelerator, brake pedal, and steering wheel on the roof.
Sit on the roof rack with no belt and let one of the kids sit in the driver seat properly retrained.
That way, in the event of a crash, the driver's ignorance is eliminated from the gene pool instead of an innocent fourth kid
who was allowed to ride in a vehicle designed to carry three passengers.

:roll:


There are belts that can be sasely installed. Mounting points Can be reinforced with Steel or Alum. plate under the car. They have been used , and aproved by the SCCA, NASCAR for use. Mounting is not that bad. I have done it on race cars for years. The cars were usally older street cars modified to race. We never used the standard seat belt mounting points. They were/are to soft for racing. There are instructions for mounting on line.

The link shows the type of belt I used in the race car.
http://www.hunsakersports.com/shop/category.asp?catid=12

There is a company that makes a DOT approved third seat for the Honda Element. I've seen it for the CRV but now they have it for the Element as well. For those who have two kids and one on the way or just want to have the capability to roll with a total of five people, here is your option. The seat installs on the left or right side behind the rear seats and is a side facing seat, comes in matching Element material and color or leather for a tad more.

Anyway, I thought I'd pass this on. Here is the link:

http://littleseats.com/honda_element.htm

I hope it bolts to something more substantial than just the spare tire cover/table top:shock:

I hope no one ever gets in an accident with one of those.

I was looking at the Jump seats like my Nissan king cab had. They mounted to the wall, not the floor. It's the same Idea, but another type of mount.

It has it's own seat belt, should be legal. You may need to add Ramblerdan's rear door opening Mod!


Dom

It looks like it has 4-6 bolts attaching it to the tire cover. I couldn't drive without having a heart attack if one of my boys was in that seat.

If someone needs a 5th seat that bad that they are willing to put someone at risk.....they are definately driving the wrong vehicle.

Saw a blue E here today with 5 people in it. Actually, it defied all odds, as it was covered in youthful stickers, and the 5 people all looked well under 30. They were sitting 3 across in the back, presumably with no belt for the guy in the middle.

Apart from any piddling safety issues, I noticed the rear suspension was bowing noticeably, like an old, over-stuffed Beetle. Meaning, I'm not sure you'd want a fifth person, even if you could shoe-horn them in.

I have a hard time understanding what the engineers have done with this little trucklet. It's beefy like a truck, but has a puny carrying capacity. It has a tricked Honda 4-banger, but gets mileage comparable to a Ford V6. All I can conclude is that the Civic platform is maxed out by the bulky bodyworks, an' it took 'em everything they had to make it drive well; fuel economy and carrying capacity were just too much to ask.

I contacted the company that makes the seat and asked about the mounting and stability. This is the answer that I got and I'm satisfied with it. I'm not interested in the seat but for those who may have an interest, this is what he said:

"The Element seat bolts into a steel bracket that mounts under the chassis of the Honda to reinforce the floor. It bolts through the spare tire cover not to the spare tire cover. For the seat to come loose it will have to rip the floor out of the Element.

DOT does not approve seat designs, but rather writes the safety specifications for the manufacturers to meet. We have tested our front and rear facing seats to meet the DOT (National Traffic Highway Safety Administration) standards. We are unaware of any specifications for side facing seats. However, the construction of our side facing seats and the seat anchorage systems are consistent with our front and rear facing seats and include a three point shoulder/lap belt."

Sincerely,

Russ

I was curious and called them to ask how exactly it is connected. This is what he told me:

The bracket bolts through the wheel well then two rods come up through the spare tire cover. I asked about getting to the spare and he asid the seat removes easily with two bolts then the spare tire cover gets removed. I asked if the seat is resting on the plastic cover and he said it is resting on pieces that are bolted bolted to the steel rods. The holes that are cut into the floor have support pieces through it, that's what the seat rests on.

I see nothing wrong with this seat. If someone needs a seat for a short trip around town, it would be fine. I don't see this as being any more or less dangerous than most 3rd row seats.

Id just wished there was a Way to Remove the Cup holders from the Back seat and replace it with other cushion attachment.

Atleast , you could have a lil space for someone to sit there instead of having them sit on the Plasitc cup holders which would be unconfortable.:twisted:

Yea, it would be nice if someone or the manufacturers of this particular seat had made a three person bench that allowed for seatbelts for all three occupants. A replacement for the current seat for those who wanted to fore go the cupholders and the folding of the seats on the side. Just an idea, but again, I don't roll with more than me, she and our baby Bri!

Anyone know anything about the crumple zones to the element? I'd be afraid that that extra seat would be occupying one of those areas...

Anyone know anything about the crumple zones to the element? I'd be afraid that that extra seat would be occupying one of those areas...

I believe the owners manual shows the crumple zones and yes, this seat is in the rear zone.

Regards,

I bought an accessory seat belt from an auto parts store, and hook it into the floor anchors with quicklinks (used for fastening chains together). Don't remember the size of the quicklinks, you need just the right size to fit.
For the cushion, I carry my Crazy Creek chair in the back and use it to cover the cupholders/split seat. I don't often carry 5, but once in a while it's handy. Then I don't have to drive my wife's Scion xB (which DOES seat 5)(and actually is a hoot to drive!)(but doesn't have XM radio)(yet.).

Hey, I'd like to see pics of that??? We have been considering an E, but we are also thinking about having a 3rd child. It would be a go to work car for my wife, but I'm sure at some point we would all be in it and the 5th seat would be Great. We were considering the new CRV coming out just because of the seating for 5,but really like the E. I was trying to figure out if you could put the CR-V seats in the back. I like the 3rd row better. Even better though would be DORIENC's idea.
Thanks. Oh yeah 1st post here
Great site, but where is the gallery?

According to my manual, that seat is located in the crush zone, an area designed to absorb the impact of a collision and keep the occupants safe. Looks like a sure fire way to kill a child during a rear end collision.

That's why I like Dorienc's idea of putting in the middle of the two on the bench. When can we see a pic.

Honestly... the rear seat looks fine for a short ride.... but just think.. if you get hit, that person is gonna smack their head on the rear window just like I used to in my dad's little half cab in his Chevy S-10. LOL Gee... I guess that answers a lot.... HAHA! :twisted:

On the other hand, I bought my E because I was tired of driving 4-door grocery getter and having people bum rides off of me all of the time.... so I traded UP for a seemingly 2 door 4-seater... and NO one asks me for rides... of course maybe because my car is weird looking as well... LMAO :evil:

i just got the E, and i am already working on a semi-permanent soloution to do a 3 seater if needed. so far it will require minor drilling :-( . there are quite a few aftermarket 3 seaters for pick ups, but i have not found straight plug n play for the E. the 5th seat for the E goes in the rear compartment, and i am not comfortable with my kid in a crumple zone.

so far what i have found would be similar to a mini-van removable... leaving two brackets behind when seat is removed. i am not satified yet. i will not quit until i find a soloution that leaves the ability to use the stock seat, and will not compromise the E's cargo ability.

You guys are awesome. There is "some" hope that I can get a 3 across now. I wouldn't care if I had to pay shipping from Japan, I'll definetely check it out.
I just bought a brand new element ex-p Kiwi green. My wife loves it. I traded her 03 Accord in on it. I love those suicide doors. It is so easy to put the baby in his seat.

I'll dig around when I have a little time, I'm rushing at work at the moment.

An additional seat would be good, but not at the expense of the versatility of the current backseats (aka fold-up and easy removal options).

I think the major redesign in 2009 will include new seating, which will increase the number of passengers from four to five. A bunch of people I know with three kids would love to own the Element, but it is not practical since they have three kids... I did luckily talk them out of the FJ Cruiser though! HEHE!

A couple I know are deciding now between the new Accura RDX and the Mazda CX7... My buddy who is a part manager for Accura recently test drove the CX7 and redesigned RDX... he said that while the CX7 is really nicely stylish, and is a step forward for Mazda, it doesn't compare with the RDX in terms of performance or styling...

Furthermore, he also test drove the FJ Cruiser, the Xterra, and the Element in one run and he (even though he doesn't own an E) said he would take the E over both the FJ and Xterra... the E handles better, is a smoother drive, has better visability, and has such a unique and comfortable interior... and is much better on gas than both

If and when you get parts to change the seats......you still have seat belts to think about.

check out this link http://www.littleseats.com/honda_element.htm
this is the only option that i have found so far.
ACEJT

If and when you get parts to change the seats......you still have seat belts to think about.

the japanese seats have a lapbelt on the center "seat." one side has the belt, the other has the latch. the only engineering that would make sense on this would be for that lap belt to be secured to the seat's frame. this, of course, implies that those of us interested in making this swap/upgrade/mod would have to buy the entire seat assemblies. the shoulder harnesses on the two left and right seats are mounted to the body of the car in both the american and japanese versions, so as long as the latches are compatible, it shouldn't be a problem.

honestly, i have NO idea why the american version doesn't have this as stock. (or even as an option, for that matter.)

there was talk (i believe in this thread) that the '08 element WILL have this type of a setup. so if the JDMs become available and end up being exorbitantly expensive, i guess we can all just wait for '08.

sigh.

the japanese seats have a lapbelt on the center "seat." one side has the belt, the other has the latch. the only engineering that would make sense on this would be for that lap belt to be secured to the seat's frame. this, of course, implies that those of us interested in making this swap/upgrade/mod would have to buy the entire seat assemblies. the shoulder harnesses on the two left and right seats are mounted to the body of the car in both the american and japanese versions, so as long as the latches are compatible, it shouldn't be a problem.

honestly, i have NO idea why the american version doesn't have this as stock. (or even as an option, for that matter.)

there was talk (i believe in this thread) that the '08 element WILL have this type of a setup. so if the JDMs become available and end up being exorbitantly expensive, i guess we can all just wait for '08.

sigh.



And where does the shoulder belt for the middle seat mount?

And where does the shoulder belt for the middle seat mount?

I believe he was implying that the center seat ONLY has a lap belt...I'm not sure of the gov't regulations for this as of now, but it used to be okay to only have a lap belt in the rear.

And where does the shoulder belt for the middle seat mount?

yeah, typer98's got my number. there's no shoulder belt for the middle seat. here, you can check it out for yourself HERE. (http://www.honda.co.jp/ELEMENT/2005/interior/) at the bottom of the graphic, there's two little arrows -- one pointing left and one pointing right. click either one four times, which will "turn" your POV to face the rear seats. SWEET setup, if you ask me. genius engineering.

i've just done a quick scouring of motor vehicle laws in california, where it states that every passenger in the vehicle must be wearing a seatbelt. it does NOT specify (anywhere that i could find) that you must wear a shoulder strap. of course, we all know this is safer, but it's not the law. many of the sites i checked gave the safety statistics on shoulderbelts vs. lapbelts, but the laws themselves simply state that every passenger must be wearing a belt of SOME variety.

obviously, anyone considering this upgrade/swap/mod should check their own state's safety belt laws.

I believe he was implying that the center seat ONLY has a lap belt...I'm not sure of the gov't regulations for this as of now, but it used to be okay to only have a lap belt in the rear.


Thats what i meant....retrofitting a seat belt may have to conform to current regs.

i've just done a quick scouring of motor vehicle laws in california, where it states that every passenger in the vehicle must be wearing a seatbelt. it does NOT specify (anywhere that i could find) that you must wear a shoulder strap. of course, we all know this is safer, but it's not the law. many of the sites i checked gave the safety statistics on shoulderbelts vs. lapbelts, but the laws themselves simply state that every passenger must be wearing a belt of SOME variety.

I wouldn't waste too much time searching state codes for the legality of a lap belt in the rear...if a change was made, I'm sure it was made by federal mandate. Try NHTSA's website (National Highway and Transportation Safety Admin), I don't know it offhand, but nhtsa.org is probably it.

And if you're concerned about legality of the mod, it would probably have to conform to the National standard set forth as of the production year of YOUR vehicle.

We are a family of 3 with hopefully a 4th one in the future, but the concern is that no parent can fit in the back safely with 2 little ones if the need were to arise.

We have one toddler and that's it for now, but I can definitely see how not having a middle seat in the back for a parent to sit could be a potential problem...

Again, hopefully the major redesign in 2009 will address that... personally, unless a three-across backseat was factory or dealer installed and government tested, I wouldn't feel safe putting my kid in one...

Did anyone find a rear seat yet? I am looking for one as well.

don't know how much of the thread you checked out, dequanimous, but i'll summarize the whole of it for you here, which may help...

1] if you're looking for a proper fifth seat for the rear, and you don't mind boring into your floorboards and so on, and you don't mind putting the fifth person in danger, and you don't mind crippling the overall cargo versatility of your ride, you can get one HERE. (http://www.littleseats.com/honda_element.htm)

2] if that's not your bag, eoc user typer98 has a connection who's looking into putting together a "conversion kit," built from the necessary parts of the japanese element (which had padding in the center vs. cupholders, along with a lap belt). this kit will have approx. a 4-6 week delivery time. availability and price still forthcoming/being researched.

3] "the element is a 4 seater -- give up!"

options number 2 and 3 seem to be the most popular in the thread.

The folding seat looks about the same as the side facing seats in a Volvo wagon and Volvo believes the seats are safe. What is the safety issue with the seat? Is it too close to the bumper?

well, the seat is right in an impact/crumple zone, for one. so being rear ended is gonna be a bad day for that passenger.

plus, sitting sideways like that is a significant whiplash/head injury threat in cases of a front-end collision.

i don't know much about volvos, but i'd hazard a guess that they engineer their vehicles to accomodate these risks.

just thoughts. brain purge.

Anything is 'possible" but making it PRACTICAL is the question. There are jump type seats available for the "way back" behind the rear sear. That, however, is the "crumple zone" and I personally won't let my dog ride back there, much less a child. Your opinion may be different.

The E is a 4 seater car - and JUST a 4 seater car. Unless all you plan to put in the backseat are 6 year olds, there just isn't sufficient width for 3 adults. It just isn't designed to carry 5 people. It does limit the E to people with MAX 3 kids (if single) and MAX 2 kids if you have a partner, but it's not like there aren't other alternatives for people with bigger families - like the CRV, or the Odyssey, or the Pilot.

The E was designed with active "kidless" young adults in mind. Therefore it makes sense that it's a 4-seater. And frankly I think that the majority of owners don't WANT any additional seating. It's part of what makes the E...an E.

Hello, I appoligize if this has been put up on here before. But I just came across it and thought it may interest ppl.

http://www.littleseats.com/honda_element.htm

Enjoy my fellow toaster drivers!

OH...also has anyone installed ceat heaters and leather on the seats? - how has it kept up if you have? Thanks!

That is a very bad idea - for so many reasons. First and probably most importantly, that area is a "crush zone". Designed to crumple and absorb impact in a rear end collision...

28783

Spare me more judgements, I've read them all and made my choice.

Very occasionally I have had the need to seat 5 folks for a very short trip. So, I went to the local wrecking yard and after some searching found a mid-nineties Toyota Corrolla two door with a middle lap-only belt. I was looking for black to match my Element belts and these not only were black, but the latch mechanism appears very similar to the Honda belts. Probably the same supplier as the Honda belts. This was a remove it yourself wrecking yard so I removed the two pieces of the belt and also took the bolts as they were longer to accomodate both the center belt and the receiver for the two side shoulder belts.

Back at home in the E, I raised the rear seats and leaving the legs up (not folded) I carefully removed the plastic clamshell trim from around the leg of each seat. I then unbolted the existing seatbelt receivers from each side. I pushed the new lap belt ends down through the same opening as the existing receiver ends come up through and using the longer bolts I took out of the Toyota I bolted everything back into place on each side. I then reinstalled the trim on each leg.

Note: You want to find a belt on which the receiver end (short end) measures at least 10 inches from the center of the hole to the end of the receiver. This ensures that it will be long enough to poke up through the seat.

At this point I could have been done, but I did not want the long end of the seat belt to flop around when I folded up the seats. I had installed this end on the seat behind the driver. So, I then took a small bungee cord and fashioned a small hook under this seat at the front top of the folding leg. When not in use (99% of the time) I simply extend this belt and hook the hole in the end of the seatbelt tab onto the hook, then slightly tighten it.

Yes, it is too narrow back there for 3 (wider than my buddy's Jetta back seat though) and yes, sitting on the plastic cup holders is not the most comfortable, but it works for what it was intended. It was an easy Saturday modification.

Read the threads and make your own decision.

Now I'm curious, did you do this to be...
A. safe
B. Legal
C. Somehow shielded from liability should someone be injured while riding in the middle
D. All the above.


The reason I ask is that you have now compromised the safety of all the rear belts by replacing the factory bolt with one from a salvage yard. You don't know what kind of stress that bolt has been subjected to. Beyond that, having a third person sitting in the middle in such tight quarters dramatically increases the risk of injury from flailing body parts. Not to mention the inherent drawbacks to a lap-only restraint and you now have three belts secured to an anchor point on the body designed for only two.

As for legality, that mod gets a big fat zero as well. Scrounging leftover restraints from the junk yard and bolting them in no more satifies the seatbelt law than whittling your own belt out of a piece of wheat and gluing it to the seat. So legally speaking, it's no different than riding without a belt.

Needless to say, the liability associated with allowing someone to ride in your car protected by a junkyard strap secured by the finest hardware Joe's scrapheap had to offer is severe if they get hurt; particularly if that somebody is a kid who does not know any better.

I'm not passing judgement, I'm just pointing out facts in case someone thinks this is somehow beneficial.

You can make whatever choice you want. But do us all a favor; when there is 5 people in your car, YOU sit in the middle of the back flanked by two other people who don't mind the increased potential for injury. So if natural selection should strike, it has a chance of hitting the intended target and not some innocent kid smoted by someone else's ignorance.

The driver/owner of a vehicle has a responsibility to ensure the safety of the passengers.
If someone wants to make poor decisions which risk the life of their and family and friends, I guess that is up to them.
But don't expect to come on here and advertise it and think everyone will support such an unsafe modification. My goal is to make sure anyone on the fence or unfamiliar with the forces associated with a auto accident realize that this modification has no up side.

My point is not to judge; just point out that it does not make riding in the middle legal, safe, or liability free.
You can still get a ticket and it can kill somebody in the process.
If they want to do it anyway, that is up to them; people do stupid stuff everyday.

I give this mod a big....http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif:twisted:

Happy motoring!
:razz:

My point is not to judge...
Oh, but mine is! Seriously. Two reasons. First, most of these attempts to "mod" a fifth passenger in are subjecting kids to risks they didn't bargain for. And second, people are overly eager to sue someone when their bad judgement is proven. Unfortunately, those suits result in higher costs for all products and completely unnecessary legislation in areas that don't (or shouldn't) require it.

I make plenty of idiot choices myself. I mean, I smoke cigarettes for heaven's sake, but I'm not blaming the makers of them for that. I also choose to not wear a helmet when I ride a bicycle. I'd never ride a motorcycle without helmet , nor so much as ride in a car without wearing a seatbelt, but they're still my adult choices.

Again, I'm just not inclined to lend any assistance to people attemping these kinds of mods who will (undoubtedly) end up suing Honda, or causing even more anti-free-choice legislation aimed at hapless automobiles. And I don't think I even need to pretend to be friendly about it! :mad:

Thankfully, these fifth passenger threads die more quickly than they did in the beginning. :rolleyes:

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING MODIFICATION IS UNTESTED AND NOT APPROVED BY ANY GOVERNMENT AGENCY. DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS ADDITION. IT IS STRICTLY FOR THE AMUSEMENT OF READERS. OBTAIN A REAL 5 PASSENGER CAR IF YOU REQUIRE A 5TH POSITION. ALL POSITIONS SHOULD HAVE SHOULDER SUPPORT AND A HEADREST.

Anyway, way back in 03 I installed a 5-Point RCI 9410D Junior Racing seatbelt. It took awhile to get all 5 belts hooked up. I upgraded to a Cam-Lock RCI 9410CD that is a lot easier to hook up. All belt straps just click in and a little twist to the knob gets you out.

I do not use this belt often. A couple of times a year and I put my own kids in it. They argue to get to use it. IMO it is the safest seat in the car. Its in the center rear and a lot of metal would have to break for it to fail. No I do not want to buy a CRV.

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1636&highlight=bench+seat

Very nice, Roped. The upper LATCH hooks are made for that purpose (generally speaking), but where did you anchor the lower belts?

Let the "don't do it" posts begin!

Very nice, Roped. The upper LATCH hooks are made for that purpose (generally speaking), but where did you anchor the lower belts?

Let the "don't do it" posts begin!

Not me. I'm waiting for the "how do I get these cupholder marks off my a$$" thread. :razz:

Very nice, Roped. The upper LATCH hooks are made for that purpose (generally speaking), but where did you anchor the lower belts?

Looks like some go to the other car seat hooks built in to the back seats where the seat back meets the seat bottom.

they could also possibly hook into where the actual seat latches are on the floor

Very nice, Roped. The upper LATCH hooks are made for that purpose (generally speaking), but where did you anchor the lower belts?

Let the &quot;don't do it&quot; posts begin!
I hooked up the lower belts to the front metal seat hinge but I won't go to any details. Its not the proper way. The best way is to just follow the seat belt installation instructions that come with the seat belt. Bolt the seat belt to metal anchor points in the car. Drill holes in the spare tire well and bolt left and right hand belts down there. Seat belt angles are very important and described by RCI. I know at least the top tether anchor points are to FMVSS Part 571 Section 225. The 5th point at the floor seat anchor is to FMVSS Section 207. The belts are SFI rated. FMVSS is Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. We are talking about 1000s of Newtons of strength. You can enjoy reading them here. http://www.crash-network.com/Regulations/FMVSS/fmvss.html (http://www.crash-network.com/Regulations/FMVSS/fmvss.htmlI) I don't want anyone to point out a racing harness in a Element-D drifter is not right, not legal and not safe.

I want to point out that I think your seat belt angles are too narrow. If too narrow they will pinch the waist in a crash. You don't have to go to a wrecking yard for belts. Pep Boys, Kragens, JC Whitney all sell belt kits. The instructions describe the belt angles you should attain. However you do it, just get the angles right.I understand the pressure. There seems to be space there for someone to get into. Honda should have put a bed of nails there to stop it. Cupholders are not enough. Lets face it most 5th seat positions in most cars suck anyway.

Now thats Kool !!

Dom

OF COURSE you could be hit going slowly in your own sweet neighborhood. You could kill your child or your neighbor's child. That child could become a projectile and kill you or your front seat passenger too.
Believe it or not 2 weeks ago we had a couple who were going to a get together with their infant in a car seat. On the way, the baby wouldn't stop crying. So mom gave him a bottle. Kept crying. So as they entered the neighborhood that they were headed for she took the baby out to nurse him. You guessed it they were t-boned, that one month old lingered in the ICU for five days and then passed away. Mom is still undergoing surgeries.
Don't you think all their justifications for that behavior have disintegrated?

All I can think of when reading this and the other posts is the woman several years back in the late 90's who was driving in a parking lot barely moving in a VW Jetta and literally bumped into a car (Don't remember if it bumped into her or she bumped into it)...she had her child in a car seat in the front that was rear facing ...BIG no no with front airbags...anyway air bag (1st generation) deployed and decapitated the infant. :shock: :shock: :shock: and I am sure she was thinking that everything was fine before hand

Don't know if this is legal or not everyone is wearing a seatbelt.
Attach child seat to latch system behind Driver seat. Grab Seat Belt A and put around Passenger 1 and behind passenger 2 and attach buckle to Buckle B.

Grab Seat B behind baby car seat and put around passenger 2 on the hard cup holders and buckle to buckle A.

lol don't flame!!

seriously, here's a 5th seat. It's kinda cramped though.
http://www.littleseats.com/honda_element.htm

Once again, I have to say this is a VERY BAD IDEA. This seat is in the CRUSH ZONE.

The area is designed to compact and absorb the forces of a rear end collision - anyone dare to guess what happens to anyone in this seat??

Seriously, the E is not for everyone, if you're totin' around more than four people, you really need to look at another vehicle.

As for the 'seat' - I don't understand how these guys can sell this death trap... I guarantee there will be a lawsuit over it one day - assuming someone is stupid enough to actually buy one and install it.


just sayin'

Just kinda mystified about such a passionate backlash on a 5th seat...:confused:

The ONLY gripe I have with the 5th seat is where it's located. It is placed in the rear "cargo" area.

The company that sells this death trap tells people that their 'safety' tests show how 'strong' the seat and it's seatbelt are. What they don't mention the fact that where they are locating the seat is in a location of the Element that is a 'crush zone' or an area that is designed to compact in on it's self to absorb the energy of a rear end collision.

Anyone dare to guess what happens to the seat - or the little grandchild sitting in it?

I understand what you are saying about the versatility of the Element, it's true. However; with the present design of the '5th seat"

I cannot believe anyone who understands where this seat is located could ever allow their child or grandchild to actually ride there.

43710

What I was taken aback with is the seemingly large group of folks saying they didn't want anything to do with a 5th seat option and were apparently tired of hearing about it. If you don't need it, the argument would get old fast I'm sure. But why the not wanting anything to do with it part?


I concur. If something could be worked out that would keep the functionality of the rear seats yet still provide the 5th seat, I would defiantly be interested.

Sometimes I think a lot of us tend to forget that there are constantly new people venturing into the EOC and don't know a lot of the 'common' topics are just that - a common topic. Thus, the perception of members being 'short' or 'rough' with their replies. For the most part, the membership of the EOC is a good bunch. Stick around and you'll see what I mean.

By the way, welcome to the EOC, Bowzer. :)

There may be something on this site that may be of use.
www.j-garage.com/
:)

Since there seems to be at least a little interest in this topic, I asked Yosi at J's Garage about it. He's not sure what we need, but he sent a parts diagram. I don't see where this is a 3-seater, but you can try to decipher it yourself and tell me what you think.

...same as the current US Rear seats: (from majestic)

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/8239/picture16ib9.png

...note that altho partially within the crush zone, a trundle seat is not without airbags (#9) on years '07+.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1207/picture18ya7.png

After a closer look at that image, the built in crush zone extends all the way to near the center of the rear wheel well which is just at the back of the rear seats. Anything behind the rear seat is not partially but rather is entirely within the crush zone.

Yes, there are side airbags built in the side frame. Anyone ever seen a side airbag deploy? They literally explode down and away from the side. Nothing holds them other than where they attach at top.

Looking at this rear fifth seat from www.littlepassengerseats.com (http://www.littlepassengerseats.com/honda_element.htm) that has been brought up several times, the top of the back is right at or over that little ledge by the window. Adults and older children will get hit on the head and neck by a deploying airbag. That will hurt. And the side airbags will only protect in the event of a rollover or similar accidents, they will not protect anyone back there if the impact is from the rear.

I would not recommend putting anything irreplaceable like a human life back there (even if it's the mother in law).

I know some people are tired of this thread. If it bothers you, please don't read this.

While at the EOC Tour at the East Liberty Plant, I spoke with an engineer who was involved with manufacturing of the seats and seat belts early on in the Element project. I consider this "The Definitive Answer" to the fifth Element seat. NOTE: He did not recommend this mod, as it doesn't meet US safety standards. I think this was mostly a CYA statement. Our rear seats probably do not Japan's safety standards. It's not like Honda says "Oh! This is for the Japanese market, so it's OK if it's a deathtrap.".

If you want a JDM rear seat, here's what it will take: remove seats AND the bracket that they attach to on each side of the Element. You'll need the JDM brackets and the entire JDM rear seat assembly plus a small piece of trim for each side. If purchased new, piece-by-piece, I believe this will run into a few thousand dollars at least. An alternative would be to find a source for a used seat assembly, which I am looking into.

Minuses to the JDM rear seat:
1. The seats don't fold to the side nor are they readily removable.
2. They are not US-approved (as I suspect is the case for virtually every mod listed on this site).
3. You'll anger the EOC purists.

Pluses to the JDM rear seat:
1. You'll get your much-desired 3rd rear seat.
2. You'll increase the number of people interested in your Element when you go to sell it. Just don't get rid of the US seats.
3. You'll anger the EOC purists. Do you REALLY measure yourself by THEIR yardstick?

Thanks to TMac, Julie, Larry, and the multitude of others who put on a first-class meet. I found that 99% of EOCers are good, decent, friendly, helpful folk.

To further confuse everyone, I too spoke to Honda about this very thing. The engineer I spoke to gave a simple reason why the E only sits four...

"When it came right down to it the need to have the seats fold up against the side was more important than having seating for three. The requirements needed to secure the third person (belt/comfort) just wasn't feasible and still retain the awesome seating configuration at the same time."

There you are... kinna simple, huh? ;-)

My wife's hairdresser got someone to mount a lap belt in her E (to the floor I assume so that one end of the belt came up though the back of each seat) to provide a third option in the back...

Maybe I'll see about getting a pic and the story...

I bought an aftermarket seat belt from my local parts store, and 2 quicklinks from the hardware store. On the rare occasions I carry a 5th person, I hook the belt into the floor anchors for the seats.

I keep a Crazy Creek canoe seat (you know, those folding stadium seats) in the back, and put it in the middle for the 5th person to sit on. So far, no complaints. The longest drive anyone has had in the middle is 2 hours, and all 3 in the back were skinny teenagers.

I bought an aftermarket seat belt from my local parts store, and 2 quicklinks from the hardware store. On the rare occasions I carry a 5th person, I hook the belt into the floor anchors for the seats.

I keep a Crazy Creek canoe seat (you know, those folding stadium seats) in the back, and put it in the middle for the 5th person to sit on. So far, no complaints. The longest drive anyone has had in the middle is 2 hours, and all 3 in the back were skinny teenagers.

To me, this sounds like a reasonable solution, although I'm sure we'll hear several reasons why it's a bad idea. I suppose it depends on how strong the quick links and the anchors are. But it HAS to be much safer than not being strapped in at all or strapped in in the crumple zone, like the cargo area fifth seat.

I own a 2004 Element and I am a certified Car Seat Technician, I install car seats for Safe Kids. The bottom hooks are for LATCH (lower anchors and tethers for children). You can install seats in either outboard position but cannot legally or safely install in the center!!!! Thanks

Just put a 2 point seat belt in.Took less than twenty minutes.It mounts to the buckle sides under the seats.Remove the bolt,slide the new belt end through the seat,put the new bolt in and youre good to go. If you have to put another person in the back,this is a safer way to go than no belt at all.

;637302']Just put a 2 point seat belt in.Took less than twenty minutes.It mounts to the buckle sides under the seats.Remove the bolt,slide the new belt end through the seat,put the new bolt in and youre good to go. If you have to put another person in the back,this is a safer way to go than no belt at all.

I agree ... safer than no belt at all. Got any photos? Where did you get the supplies? Costs?

I'm not even going to go into whether or not this is really safe, everyone else has already had their say on it. In today's legal atmosphere, though, there are other things to consider as well when making the claim "safer than no belt at all." If you added a fifth seatbelt to your E consider this:

You're really opening yourself up to a lawsuit if a rear passenger sustains injury (of any kind) in the back seat. You're worse off than no belt at all, because a lawyer would argue that by adding a belt you gave the impression to your passengers of safety, and they might not have chosen to sit there or take a ride with you if you hadn't put the belt in. Heck, even a signed waiver might not shield you from liability and even if you weren't found liable, you will still certainly get sued. I won't even go into criminal law (because I don't know) but it's something else to consider, and I can imagine a couple circumstances where it might apply (like if it was your child under 18 in the back seat).

These posts would get used as evidence in court to show that you knew the risks and did this anyway, and no judge or jury will look kindly on that (it means you knowingly endangered your passengers). These posts have also laid the framework for a definition of what a "reasonable person" thinks about this and it's not in favor of the people doing the mods.

[IANAL - I Am Not A Lawyer, but I have had some legal advice in negligence regarding other activities. Please, consult a lawyer and for our entertainment post a pic of the reaction on his face! :shock: ]

As for civil protection through your auto insurance, has anyone read their policy to see if your insurance would cover a lawsuit based on you making aftermarket modifications to your vehicle's safety systems?? I doubt it. What happens if you're found NOT at fault in the accident, do you think the other insurance company would pay out bodily injury for ANY of your rear passengers? I doubt that too. (I'll admit I haven't looked at mine, don't have answers to these and I could be wrong, but people doing this mod should be prepared and already know the answers to these questions...)

My point is, no matter what you think about your driving skills, the types of trips you do, etc. none of the above is something you can prevent or be prepared for, other than never transporting more than 4 people in an E. That's the choice I'm making.

I just wanted the option incase I was faced with five people to transport.I baught the seat belt on ebay from car pats wholesale $16.99 plus shipping.Search honda element seat belt in car parts. It comes with longer bolts for both buckle loops.
I will check with DMV and Honda to see what they say.I would think the State wouldnt know what to think,they have there heads up their you know what.And Honda might say the bolt can hold so many pounds in an accident.
So,If you are faced with taking three in the back,well Ill use the belt.

I think the "best" number of people to carry in an Element is TWO. The Element is quite capable of hauling five people, though. Just because that option was never made available in this country doesn't make it any less true.

Safety is an illusion we create to allow ourselves to get out of bed every morning. Anyone concerned about doing anything that might subject himself to any type of legal action had best do nothing with their Element. Leave it parked in the driveway. You do realize that the Element is a roll-over deathtrap, don't you? Says so right on the visor.

At this stage, everyone realizes that there are better options for carrying 5 passengers, chief among these are a different vehicle. We also realize that modifying the Element to carry 5 passengers may expose us to risks of various sorts, including legal action should injury occur.

Are we really discussing that it's safer to carry a child unrestrained than in a seatbelt that may not meet everyone's standards? I'll take my chances with the aftermarket seatbelt any day.

Most mods you do to your Element involve a degree of risk, whether it's messing with the wiring or installing non-stock wheel and/or tire sizes to your Element. Does the Home Depot grill mod increase the risk of injury to a pedestrian hit by an Element. Probably. Are there potential hazards associated with raising or lowering an Element? Yes. The list goes on and on, people.

I wouldn't ride a motorcycle because the risk is unacceptably high for me. Others do it. The typical person in this forum probably disagrees with me. So be it. I'd like them to do it in a manner that is as safe as possible. People WILL allow 4 additional people to ride with them in an Element. Let's help them do it as safely as possible.

Life is a hazard. Try to live anyway.

adding a belt you gave the impression to your passengers of safety, and they might not have chosen to sit there or take a ride with you if you hadn't put the belt in.

My point is, never transporting more than 4 people in an E. That's the choice I'm making.

Go back and read this message. It really is the thing to consider - anyone wanna bet just how many lawyers wouldn't sue?? My guess is the same amount of insurance companies that would pay a personal injury claim... none.

Doing a mod like this really will subject the owner to all kinds of liability. It's plain not worth the risk to me.

I'm with drivestoclimb on this one.

Go back and read this message. It really is the thing to consider - anyone wanna bet just how many lawyers wouldn't sue?? My guess is the same amount of insurance companies that would pay a personal injury claim... none.

Doing a mod like this really will subject the owner to all kinds of liability. It's plain not worth the risk to me.

I'm with drivestoclimb on this one.

I'm guessing everyone else gets the permission of their lawyer and their insurance company before attempting any mod, right?

Of course not, you know better than that. But when the mod is this drastic I think common sense should come in to play.

Hey, It's no skin off my nose. Anyone wants to do this, fine. All I'm saying is that this 'mod' is not one I would even consider for a second. For no other reason than the liability - period.

I can't afford to lose everything I own....

It honestly doesn't matter if the Element can handle three people in the rear seat, if we mod it to include passenger restraints, air bags, modified seats, whatever. The end result is going to be the same the first time somebody gets hurt....

The vulture lawyers will be all over it - and the insurance guys will look at it and laugh....

But again, it's nothing to me. Go for it, post a good write up and pictures explaining the mod - just like any other one.

Just remember....

it's all fun and games till someone gets hurt...

I guess I just don't see it as that drastic of a mod if done properly and used properly. If you don't do the mod and only carry 4 people in your Element, are you free from worry? Do the vultures quit circling when calamity occurs?

I do understand what people are saying. I guess I'm just not quite ready to be paralyzed with fear yet.

The only way to be safe is to never drive your Element. The most dangerous thing most of us do on a daily basis is drive (or ride) in a car. The Element is a 2-ton lethal weapon rolling down the road at interstate speeds. It is prone to roll-overs and it may kill or maim you and/or 3 or 4 others (or more).

OK, the detractors have succeeded and I won't post to this thread anymore. Let the celebration begin! I'm sure we'll all sleep better tonight.

I wouldn't let anyones opinion keep you from doing something. If it's done properly then it should be fine. This type of negativity didn't come about when somebody decided to make their own "suspension lift" for their E. If they were to have a bolt or something break with their spacers it could be disaster as well. Living is a risk we all take everyday and life is to short to live in fear.

With that said I was thinking you may want to investigate the mechanics of the two seats and see what can be done to use stock frames with the stock mounting set up and modifying the padding set up to allow for a middle portion. I would then turn to looking at a stock lap belt that can be bolted to the frame of the seat to help withstand the impact of a crash if one were to happen.

Let's play a little game called "I-Spy". I-Spy 3 sets of seat belts in the rear seat of that Element. How many do you see?

I see a couple of slots where an extra seat belt could go, but I only see 2 actual seats. You could modify the front hood or roof rack to have a seat belt, but I wouldn't want to strap my family or friends into it.

I see a couple of slots where an extra seat belt could go, but I only see 2 actual seats. You could modify the front hood or roof rack to have a seat belt, but I wouldn't want to strap my family or friends into it.

There appears to be 3. This looks like the Japanese version that could sit 3 in the back.

57053

3 kids, my wife has a Pilot for when we all ride together...sounds familiar!

Our general rule is that when it's just me and the kids, we're in my E...otherwise full size family truckster duty falls to the Pilot for our gang of 5.

The post referring to the rear 5th seat option has to do with adding a jumpseat behind the existing...and it has been greatly frowned upon around here since it is in the designated crumple zones in a wreck...and I have to agree.

Your idea is a bit of a twist with a bench to replace the OEM seats. You have good anchors to work from (the OEM hooks in the floor and the side mounting points) but I would be curious how you would handle the seatbelts for a new addition in the middle. WHile it sounds elementary, there's a lot to the engineering on the safety issues.

Now that we're talking about it, I would love to see these companies making the jumpseat option switch to making something like what you are talking about. That could be very useful indeed.

Welcome to the E culture...it's a great kid hauler.

If you do a search, you'll find some nasty threads on the topic of a 3rd seat in the back. I believe it would be in a crumple zone and potentially dangerous. The E was designed to seat 4 and popular opinion is that it should remain that way.

Here's one, to get you started...

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50138&highlight=extra+seat

I don't want to add a third seat. I want to take out the rear split seat (2nd row seat) and replace it with a custom bench seat that will not have cup holders in the center. Therefore, making room for a 5th passenger and a 5th set of seat belts. Sorry if I did not make tha clear.

I think the OP is talking about replacing the rear seats with a different seat, not putting an additional seat in the cargo area behind the rear seats. I'm not saying that this is a good idea either, but it's quite a bit different from the idea of putting a third seat in the crumple zone.

What he just said! (I need to learn to type faster)

3 kids, my wife has a Pilot for when we all ride together...sounds familiar!

Our general rule is that when it's just me and the kids, we're in my E...otherwise full size family truckster duty falls to the Pilot for our gang of 5.

The post referring to the rear 5th seat option has to do with adding a jumpseat behind the existing...and it has been greatly frowned upon around here since it is in the designated crumple zones in a wreck...and I have to agree.

Your idea is a bit of a twist with a bench to replace the OEM seats. You have good anchors to work from (the OEM hooks in the floor and the side mounting points) but I would be curious how you would handle the seatbelts for a new addition in the middle. WHile it sounds elementary, there's a lot to the engineering on the safety issues.

Now that we're talking about it, I would love to see these companies making the jumpseat option switch to making something like what you are talking about. That could be very useful indeed.

Welcome to the E culture...it's a great kid hauler.


Bowzer, I had already thought about the seat belts in the center. I would think you could just securely fasten them to the frame of the seat. If you look at the OEM seat belts where they fasten in the center. I think they are just attached to the frame of the seats as well. I thought about buying a second set of OEM rear seats so I could use them for parts to build a custom seat. If I could use the mechanism that locks the seat into the anchors in the floor and attach the seat to the side of the car as you suggested, I don't think it would be too difficult.

Bowzer, I had already thought about the seat belts in the center. I would think you could just securely fasten them to the frame of the seat. If you look at the OEM seat belts where they fasten in the center. I think they are just attached to the frame of the seats as well. I thought about buying a second set of OEM rear seats so I could use them for parts to build a custom seat. If I could use the mechanism that locks the seat into the anchors in the floor and attach the seat to the side of the car as you suggested, I don't think it would be too difficult.

I think this is not that far from do-able with some know how and good hands. I just emailed that Kids Seat place in California to see if they are interested in this idea as well. Maybe if they would be inclined, since they already use the same materials and include seat belts, we could get the hard work done for us. I will let you know if/when they reply.

You sound like you have some know how...What about modifying the existing seats with an overlay that covers the center with a new seating position. You could then just add the seat belt. Safety for all these ideas is my biggest concern. Would need to secure the overlay well...other prob would be the flip up mechanisms on the side are pretty big eating up some valuable width to the whole shebang...that puts it back to a new center piece to remedy.

Can you tell I'm thinking out loud a bit here...but I sure could use this option as well.

I think this is not that far from do-able with some know how and good hands. I just emailed that Kids Seat place in California to see if they are interested in this idea as well. Maybe if they would be inclined, since they already use the same materials and include seat belts, we could get the hard work done for us. I will let you know if/when they reply.

You sound like you have some know how...What about modifying the existing seats with an overlay that covers the center with a new seating position. You could then just add the seat belt. Safety for all these ideas is my biggest concern. Would need to secure the overlay well...other prob would be the flip up mechanisms on the side are pretty big eating up some valuable width to the whole shebang...that puts it back to a new center piece to remedy.

Can you tell I'm thinking out loud a bit here...but I sure could use this option as well.


Wow, I never even thought of an overlay. That is a good idea. Of course, I am more of a metal fabricator and would still like to try and make a custom seat. I like using my welder. :) The only real "know how" I have about custom interior is I recently converted my Driver seat in my honda accord from non-power to power. Other then that I just like a challenge and I enjoy working on cars. Plus, I don't want the wife to force me to get a 5 seater, lol. She was not aware it was only a 4 seater until after I bought it and I just never really thought about it. Since I have wanted an E long before I ever had kids.

I do apologize. It's just when I see "5th Seat", I think "Oh No, here we go".

It seems like Honda was originally going to go with something like a bench...

Thread for the E concept. (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42785&highlight=concept)

From 2005 Honda Element online Owners Manual

http://www.honda.co.jp/manual/element/2005/01element/1-5-02.html

so, it would appear that all you need is some Japanese rear seats that don't have the cup holders built-in, and a seat belt set.


Aand a good lawyer if you ever have an accident and someone gets hurt. I don't recall what year it started...But shoulder belts are required for all passengers.

If you have a 2007 or older model, the center shoulder belt would not be a legal requirement; no special legal representation needed. The upholstery of the seat bottom is not regulated.

from http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/nhtsa_belts.html

"Lap/Shoulder Belts Required in Rear Center Seats

December 8, 2004

---
• Auto Safety News
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has issued a new rule requiring that rear center seats in all new passenger vehicles be equipped with lap/shoulder safety belts. New head restraint rules were also announced.

All passenger vehicles will be required to comply with the new rule by 2008 when NHTSA estimates that the change will result in 10 to 23 fewer highway fatalities per year, and 245 to 495 fewer injuries.

The rule comes in response to a Congressional mandate, known as "Anton's Law," passed to increase child passenger safety and to encourage the use of booster seats by older children.

"This rule will greatly improve safety for both children and older people," said Jeffrey W. Runge, M.D., NHTSA Administrator. "One huge advantage is that lap/shoulder belts can be used with belt-positioning booster seats, making the rear center seat the safest place for older children."

Since 1989, NHTSA has required that all rear window-side seats in new passenger vehicles be equipped with lap/shoulder belts. At this point, 23 percent of new passenger cars, along with 51 percent of new vans and light trucks (SUVs and pickups), are only equipped with lap belts for use by rear center seat passengers.

Besides cars and light trucks, the new rule applies to 12- and 15-passenger vans. Side-facing seats are exempt. The rule will be phased in by manufacturers, with half of model year 2006 passenger vehicles offering the lap/shoulder safety belts; increasing to 80 percent of vehicles in model year 2007 and 100 percent in model year 2008."

OK, I'm going to take a go at it. My stepfather is a craftsman and he does this type of work, so if we can agree on the perfect "seat" he can make it to cover the middle area and cup holders of the existing rear seat.

Idea: Let's make a custom rear seat cushion (we'll agree on size, thickness etc).

As for the seat beat we can use a standard loop through the existing seats (or maybe adding a 3rd point strap to the roof latch(s).

Let it flow from here
:)

regardless of whether it has a seat belt and if you can get your hands on it for a good price or not, it is illegal to modify a restraint system for the fifth passenger and add an additional seat like that. keep that in mind.

Well here is what I did in the meantime:

I moved the car seat to the middle, using the inner most seat attachment hooks to saddle it in between the two. At the moment I still have it attached to the left roof latch, but will make it a "Y" connection using both roof latches as soon as I get a load-bearing clamp.

I feel it is secure.

I'm not trying to add another fly in the ointment here but did anyone notice that the JDM seats do not feature a middle headrest? That would also pose a safety hazard. I don't know how individual state laws apply but it just jumped out at me. Law is one thing .. a bad case of whip lash is another.
I'm with everyone else here though ... I almost did not buy my E due to that missing 5th passenger availability. If there was an aftermarket out there, I'd be all over it. We traded in our minivan for this and boy are we missing the seating. I guess it is a case if the pros out weighing the cons but damn, I want that seat. :)
That would not be an issue for a car seat though. LOL Maybe Honda thinks Americans are too fat to fit three in the back!:lol:

Hi! I`m new here.
I`m now bying a 2006 E that has 3 front seats. I gues it`s not original seats, but with 3 front seats and 2 rear seats, you will fitt 5 passengers in the E :)
This E is imported to Norway, but in Norway, it`s just reged as a 2 seater, because it`s a few centimeters to small to get it registered as a 3 seater.

Hi! I`m new here.
I`m now bying a 2006 E that has 3 front seats. I gues it`s not original seats, but with 3 front seats and 2 rear seats, you will fitt 5 passengers in the E :)
This E is imported to Norway, but in Norway, it`s just reged as a 2 seater, because it`s a few centimeters to small to get it registered as a 3 seater.

I would check and make sure all the airbags work correctly. And I would check how all the front seats are bolted down and any welds. The forces generated in a collision are incredible. Seatbelts in racing cars have known to stretch 3-4 inches after being pulled so tight they are painful. Pieces have paper have decapitated occupants. You aren't just talking G's in the single digits.

Above also holds true for modifying the rear for a bench seat.

Last thing you want is for the center seat to detach in a collision.

Fred

Does the center occupant have a shoulder harness? And if so how is it mounted?

Does the center occupant have a shoulder harness? And if so how is it mounted?


No, just a lap belt.

I would check and make sure all the airbags work correctly. And I would check how all the front seats are bolted down and any welds. The forces generated in a collision are incredible. Seatbelts in racing cars have known to stretch 3-4 inches after being pulled so tight they are painful. Pieces have paper have decapitated occupants. You aren't just talking G's in the single digits.

Above also holds true for modifying the rear for a bench seat.

Last thing you want is for the center seat to detach in a collision.

Fred

I will check out the seat when I get my car, hopefully later this week.
The "two" seats to the right is actually one seat. The handbrake has been moved to the left side of the left seat.

You need someone qualified to check the the seat and welds. Unless you have built cars or are a F1 race engineer you quals are dubious.

Are you this car can be registered and insured? w/o a shoulder harness for the center occupant and the airbags not being designed to protect a center occupant and possible injury to center occupant from said bags you should avoid at all costs.

Fred

Are you this car can be registered and insured?
Fred

I don't know about DMVs that aren't mine but, I will say this. The DMV doesn't know it's not factory. :neutral:

Personally, I don't care who does what with their vehicles or how they choose to use them. To each their own. At least it appears that someone put in enough time to make it look decent.

Are you this car can be registered and insured?

Fred

The car is registered and insured and the seats are professional built, but there is too little room for the legs, so if someone where to sitt in the middle, then the sub have to be removed. So for me, it`s just a wide passengerseat.

Very interesting. They did a good job at making it look original. You are right about the lack of leg room for the center seat.

No, just a lap belt.

The worst part about only having a lapbelt in that front extra seat is the guys face would change the radio station in a wreck. And it'd prolly happen at your favoritest part in the song.

And everyone is worried about the jump seat in the rear crumple zone?? I built a workaround for that. I bought an old car seat at a junkyard, welded on a 2" trailer hitch and locked it right into my trailer hitch mount. Faces backwards and has a seatbelt attached. My nephew rode back there from St. Louis all the way to Hot Springs, Arkansas and loved it. The best part is he usually has to pee alot during trips and this way he can just unzip and let-er-rip.



/sarcasm

Get an aftermarket seat belt from Autozone or the like. Buy a couple of steel snap hooks (no, not the .99 key clips) and clip them to the rear seat padeyes in the floor. Bridge the split with a crazy creek chair. Voila! Seats 5, although the 3 in the back should be children or in love.

Has anyone on the forum ever bought/used one of these?

http://www.littleseats.com/honda_element.htm

$440 + $60 shipping for a new one. I was just wondering if there are any reviews and I can't find anything using the forum search feature. Thanks for any replies.

Uhhh you do realize that bolts to the plastic spare tire cover right??

Or you could put that bratty neighbor kid in the "3rd row seat" and then get into a wreck like this...

http://media.photobucket.com/image/honda%20element%20rear%20collision/n1riw/n1riw3/fa061508h.jpg

Might as well strap that extra passenger to the bumper.


This picture is a perfect example of why not to add an extra seat in the cargo area or half ass an extra seatbelt.

The Element is a 4 seater period. Yes in japan they had an extra lap belt that was properly engineered for the vehicle.

Allright, I've got it.
There are 2 anchoring hooks in the fold of each rear seat for the base of a rear-facing baby seat. There are also two hooks in the floor - one for each rear seating assembly. The two sets of hooks are essentially the same distance apart.
And there is just enough room for a babyseat on the floor - perfectly positioned between all 4 seats. The babyseat retains its direction and angle, now secured even more firmly to the frame of the vehicle.
The seat is now in the very center of the vehicle- arguably the safest position for any passenger- especially a baby.
And 4 adults may still ride in (almost) perfect comfort.
No jumpseats in crumple zones, no mods, no DIY compromising safety.
Thoughts?
(A few of you seem to engineers and mechanical/physics experts - I'd love some feedback before I take it for a spin.)
-Tim

Welcome, Fatboy7100.

2 anchoring hooks in the fold of each rear seat for the base of a rear-facing baby seat.
Yes, these are designed to anchor a baby seat.

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/seat_latch.gif

two hooks in the floor - one for each rear seating assembly.
If you mean the hooks in the far rear corners, then no. Those are held with sheet metal screws in nylon retainers (like those used with license plates) and will fail in a crash.

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/cargo_hooks.gif


If you're referring to the seat-base anchors (B in photo), they are plenty strong but AFAIK not designed to anchor a baby seat.

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/seat_rear_release02.gif


Best bet is probably to use the LATCH anchors in the upper rear corners:

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/latch.gif


For more, see the "Installing a Child Seat" section of your owner's manual. If you filled in your profile ::cough:: I could give you the page number.

It was indeed the 'B' hooks in the middle of the floor I was referring to.
Aside from the fact that no baby-seat manual would have instructions for anchoring to the floor (why would they as almost no vehicles have hooks in the floor like the Element), and of course they're not specifically made for babyseat anchoring, I'm just inferring that these hooks in the floor are actually more stable than the hooks in the seats. And that the seating position is as 100% safe as possible - I'd obviously never want to compromise the safety of my 'lil guy.

I think I'll call my dealership to see if the floor hooks are welded onto the frame itself (I believe they are).

Much like other folks in this subject area and the endlessly ongoing posts about 5th passenger capability- I resolved to change vehicles as my needs evolved, but I've ended up loving my Element/versatility too damn much! I just can't see myself driving anything else...
-Tim

Those seat-anchor hooks are good and strong. I wouldn't hesitate to use them, provided that the geometry is good. Will you be able to take advantage of the LATCH anchors near the ceiling?

I'll have a mechanical engineer check it.
Good for you!

I have to say this, though: No matter how sound your engineering, legally your kid will be a test pilot.

i've had my kid's car seat set up in the middle of the rear seat previously (sorry, got no pics) with the carseat belt attachments connected to the inner LATCH (middle) of each rear seat. so, i lost the use of the middle cup holders but gained 2 tight but manageable adult seats on both sides of the car seat. for the car seat tether, what i did was purchase another tether, tied/attached it properly to the car seat and have 2 tethers Y'd to both tether hooks at the rear. it offered him a great view while driving and have an extra occupant space available.

what made me put back the car seat at the back of the driver seat was access. i usually do the little kid's buckling and it bothers me a bit to go up inside to just buckle him in then go out compared to me standing outside easily with him within reach.

is it legal to put the carseat in the middle of the backseat if it's properly anchored down and the 2 backseat passengers can still use their seatbelts??

is it legal to put the carseat in the middle of the backseat if it's properly anchored down and the 2 backseat passengers can still use their seatbelts??


Only if there is an actual center seating position. The cup holder area of the rear seat in the Element is not a legal passenger position. There is no seat belt, air bag or even a basic seat form. It would be the equivalent of sitting on the parking brake in the front, not comfortable or safe.

Not taking issue with the general sense of post above, but children need to be protected from airbags.

Not taking issue with the general sense of post above, but children need to be protected from airbags.

Good point. That is definitely why you would want to make sure your car seat is installed in an approved location. Who knows how the airbags might affect a child riding in the center rear.

My wife and I have been looking for a vehicle to replace our aging 98 Subaru Forester. We want a vehicle that is AWD or 4WD, and as big but preferably bigger than our forester. We have gravitated towards a used Honda Element, we both like the style and features. I am going to look at a used 2005 AWD 5-speed tonight with 71,000 miles. The only thing that I really don't like about the Element is the limitation of seating 4 people. We have a 2 year old and often go for trips with two of our friends. Is there enough room across the back two seats for two medium sized adults and a car seat? I know one person wouldn't have a seatbelt.

I have also seen where you can purchase an extra seat for the trunk of the element.

http://www.littleseats.com/honda_element.htm

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Is there a cheaper option? How hard is it to install this extra seat?

You could seat 5 in a couple configurations but you probably shouldn't. Anything in the back is in a crush zone. No seat belt is just asking for it. If you've got to haul 5 a bigger car is better.
se

Hmm that is dissapointing. Its just a shame because the vehicle has more interior space than our Forester yet doesn't seat as many people. I think the vehicle is perfect for us other than that aspect. But thats a big hangup. If we ever had another child, we would not be able to carry any addition passengers.

that 5th seat looks like a death trap to me.

i think if you want to transport 5 people then the element is not the car for you.