It has been dyno tested here.
:shock:
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?page_number=1&article_id=80004

Finally someone else connected the dots !!!

Correcto Mundo ! The E motor engine management (PGFM) is same as Accord iVtec 4 and is able to benefit from high octane gas. To my knowledge CRV motor cannot.

Motor Trend comparo test of Camry, Accord and Altima 4 cyls showed Accord beat Altima (perrenial grudge match) to 60 - 8.5 & 8.7 respectively with their 5 spd and 4 spd autos. This was with Accord running regular 87 octane gas.....so a 160 hp Accord (100 lb heavier) was quicker than a 175 hp Altima...!? Even with the 5spd auto that's a lot of hp to makeup. Furthermore, Honda engineers have stated that the Accord iVtec motor is good for another 10 hp with 93 octane octane !

I ran "CarTest 2000" with the Element MotorWeek numbers of 8.1 sec to 60 for the 5spd FWD and came up with 188 hp & 183 lbf tq. I suspect MW ran with 93 octane as 8.1 to 60 and 16.3 to quarter is quicker than CRV.

So from this info and other test data, the E is putting out about 175 hp already with regular, and with 93 octane, more like 185 hp/tq

:D

Can somebody please cut and paste the article? I registered but temporarily can't get to my email to activate it. This sounds extremely interesting.

gaaaaaaaaaaah! damn you! I thought I was gonna save money at the pump. My VW takes premium only, and now I guess my E will only take premium too :twisted:

Oh well, at least I won't get confused at the filling station and put 87 in my Passat again. This is great news!

[quote:b864528cd2="moonkat2"]Furthermore, Honda engineers have stated that the Accord iVtec motor is good for another 10 hp with 93 octane octane !
:D[/quote:b864528cd2]
Can you put up a link confirming this?

Actually, the Honda Owner Link site specifically states that using a higher octane fuel than that recommended for your engine will not improve performance.

To quote:
Does it help to use a fuel with a higher octane rating than required in my Owner's Manual?
Refer to your Owner's Manual for the pump octane number recommended for your Honda. Use of a lower-octane gasoline than recommended can cause a persistent, heavy metallic rapping noise in the engine that can lead to mechanical damage.
Using more expensive, higher-octane fuel will not increase your vehicle's performance or longevity. It only increases the cost of operating your vehicle.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/2002-08-01-accord_x.htm

Accord iVtec 4 cyl - K24 motor:
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=80004

300 hp RSX K20 motor - coming to a K24 near you !
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=101836

BTW:
All you E owners need to do butt-dynos....
just run your tank to empty then fill with 93+ octane and run around for a while...
See if that doesn't feel like more power !
If you can feel it, it's got to be 10hp/10lbf tq min.
I can feel it with my 99 Ody and on regular feels like I'm missing a gear.

Does this boost in power also come with 91 octane?

I filled up three days ago with high octane (93) and with a pretty empty tank. Today coming home from work, driving as usual I noticed an improved acceleration!! The more I tuned in to what was happening it was more noticable and improved performance was definitely better. I feel we are on to something. Please try it and respond.

Is the change actually worth the differance in money from regular to premium???

I just left my billiards league and not even thinking about the engine response drove as usual. The response was overwhelming. More response!!! And more acceleration. Is this for real???

OK, better performance....but is there a corresponding rise in mileage to offset the increased cost?

elementary:
Good for you. Enjoy!
I think you are primarily appreciating increased torque. That's how it is with my 99 Ody. Makes the wide-ratio 4spd auto trans a lot more responsive.
Just another option. YMMV

iskie....
Third law of thermodynamics (or something like that):
"No such thing as a free lunch ..."

Hi Moonkat,
Begs the question. Are all Honda/Acura engines underated? Is Element engine closer to the 200 hp TSX engine than we thought. It requires premium fuel. Is it underated also or just on the line? Is this to convince TSX customers they are getting much more for their money?

Ropedart:
For whatever motives, Honda has always been conservative in performance claims. It could be due to insurance concerns, or that performance sells to a small percentage of their customers, but the majority prefer the performance without the reputation.....whatever. With the O3 Hondas, the E, Accord 4 & 6, Pilot, Ody....they have reached new heights (depths ?) of underestimating performance.

Also, there is the crediblity issue. How many would have believed a few years ago that a 2.0 L motor would put out 240 hp until the S2K ? At that time, I called the motor "historical", and Honda magicians when it came to engine design.

The Acura part of Honda is actively marketing performance and their customers expect to get what they pay for. While I believe the K24 in the E makes 180+ hp/tq, I'm sure the TSX makes the claimed 200 hp.

An excellent source of Honda/Acura info is temple of Vtec (vtecnet.com) made all the more interesting with founder Jeff Palmer buying an E for himself (trading a TL-S no less). Abundant dyno tests/reviews of V6s & iVtec Accords & TSXs. You''ll see the TSX dynos better than E's K24 but the E has a lot of potentional even without forced induction.

Well, I checked my mileage after a week and 325 miles on 93 octane and guess what? My mileage went from 21/22 to 23.65! . Not enough to keep my attention so filled it up with regular. I think that I was imagining increased performence. oh well. later.

Higher octane fuel is designed for higher compression engines or forced induction engines. It has a higher flash point so you will not get detonation, a big enemy of high performance engines. The compression ratio in the Element is 9.7 - 1, a relatively low compression ratio that definitely does not need the benefit of high octane fuel.
Like Honda says, you are spending more money on fuel for little or no gain.

Interesting, yes! It still aint winnin' no races though!

E-Man
EX. SOP. 8)

[quote:45686012ce="austingroovin"]Higher octane fuel is designed for higher compression engines or forced induction engines. It has a higher flash point so you will not get detonation, a big enemy of high performance engines. The compression ratio in the Element is 9.7 - 1, a relatively low compression ratio that definitely does not need the benefit of high octane fuel.
Like Honda says, you are spending more money on fuel for little or no gain.[/quote:45686012ce]

Lots of people think higher octane means more, sort of, "explosive goop" in the gas. Actually it is conceptually the exact opposite. Higher compression requires fuel that, like you say, has a HIGHER flash point--has LESS willingness to explode, as it were. Those who claim to experience more horsepower from higher octane are experiencing a placebo effect. Much like my wife, who always feels like her car runs better after she has it washed.

For my part, I do tend to order the middle grade because we live in a hilly area and if I got a bad tank of fuel the piston knock would make me crazy.

yelapa
Eternal Blue Pearl EX

I had that understanding about premium fuel. Its just knock checking. But how do you explain the USAtoday article that says:
The Accord V-6 ratings assume regular-grade fuel, and Honda will market it as a regular-fuel engine. But — pssst — it's good for another 10 hp and 10-plus lbs.-ft. on premium, acknowledges V-6 engineer Asaki.

Honda V-6 engineer Yasuaki Asaki

Or are we just creating another urban legend.

:?: :?: :?:

I am glad i am not the only person here that uses mid-grade :roll:

[quote:37dedb9425="moonkat2"]Ropedart:
For whatever motives, Honda has always been conservative in performance claims. It could be due to insurance concerns, or that performance sells to a small percentage of their customers, but the majority prefer the performance without the reputation.....whatever. With the O3 Hondas, the E, Accord 4 & 6, Pilot, Ody....they have reached new heights (depths ?) of underestimating performance.

Also, there is the crediblity issue. How many would have believed a few years ago that a 2.0 L motor would put out 240 hp until the S2K ? At that time, I called the motor "historical", and Honda magicians when it came to engine design.

The Acura part of Honda is actively marketing performance and their customers expect to get what they pay for. While I believe the K24 in the E makes 180+ hp/tq, I'm sure the TSX makes the claimed 200 hp.

An excellent source of Honda/Acura info is temple of Vtec (vtecnet.com) made all the more interesting with founder Jeff Palmer buying an E for himself (trading a TL-S no less). Abundant dyno tests/reviews of V6s & iVtec Accords & TSXs. You''ll see the TSX dynos better than E's K24 but the E has a lot of potentional even without forced induction.[/quote:37dedb9425]

:) greetings from the great white north. I was just reading about the K24 dyno testing and thought I would have alook for myself. I could find no info on Jeff Palmer buying an "E". I would love to see any articles and dynotest of same. I tried vtecnet.com with no success. Please advise. 8)

http://www.vtec.net/

http://www.vtec.net/forums/one-message?message_id=105369

"...it'll be in the last place you look...."

The Accord V-6 ratings assume regular-grade fuel, and Honda will market it as a regular-fuel engine. But — pssst — it's good for another 10 hp and 10-plus lbs.-ft. on premium, acknowledges V-6 engineer Asaki.
That quote was regarding the V6 Accord and not the 2.4 liter Element engine.
Here is where I found the quote http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/2002-08-01-accord_x.htm
Just because he says you can get 10hp from using premium fuel in the Accord V6, it does not mean you will get a 10 hp increase out of every car Honda makes by using premium fuel.

The dyno charts for the 2.4 liter Accord are here - http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=80004&page_number=3

Understand that these hp ratings are Wheel Horsepower, WHP. Wheel Hp is what the horsepower is at the wheels. The hp that you see in your brochures is called Brake Horse Power. Honda rates the Element at 160 bhp or brake horsepower. The reading is taken at the flywheel for bhp and not at the wheels. Also understand that the numbers are on an Accord drivetrain and not the element drive train.

Wheel Horse Power is generally 20% less than the BHP because you lose hp through your drivetrain. Since the dyno chart on the link above shows 140 whp, it does look like the 2.4 could put out more than the 160bhp.

What's so special about an Accord V6? :?:

I own an Element and a TSX automatic. The TSX accelerates much harder.

[quote:47dbeb44aa="austingroovin"]Higher octane fuel is designed for higher compression engines or forced induction engines. It has a higher flash point so you will not get detonation, a big enemy of high performance engines. The compression ratio in the Element is 9.7 - 1, a relatively low compression ratio that definitely does not need the benefit of high octane fuel.
Like Honda says, you are spending more money on fuel for little or no gain.[/quote:47dbeb44aa]

After seeing this explanation - how much more proof does anyone need to decide that high octane gasoline is simply not worth it!??! :?

[quote:47ea680144="elemantal"]I own an Element and a TSX automatic. The TSX accelerates much harder.[/quote:47ea680144]

Has it occured to anyone that an Accord is lighter and therefore accelerates better than an Element?

I had that understanding about premium fuel. Its just knock checking. But how do you explain the USAtoday article that says:
[quote]The Accord V-6 ratings assume regular-grade fuel, and Honda will market it as a regular-fuel engine. But ? pssst ? it's good for another 10 hp and 10-plus lbs.-ft. on premium, acknowledges V-6 engineer Asaki.

Honda V-6 engineer Yasuaki Asaki

Yeah right . Let's see the data. how much sake did they have to ply him with to get that bit o', um, info???

yelapa