Bridgestone Dueler A/T vs. Michelin LTX M/S? [Archive] - Honda Element Owners Club Forum

: Bridgestone Dueler A/T vs. Michelin LTX M/S?


Imamonkey
11-15-2005, 11:11 PM
Well, it finally happened, I drove in something other than rain or sun on my Wranglers. I nearly slipped right out of my lane on the (admittedly curvy highway). The wranglers only had 12,000 miles, but I decided I couldn't get through a winter (Minnesota) safely on these. Anyway, I decided enough is enough, and decided to get Michelin LTX's thrown on. Problem is, they didn't have the right size in stock, and I wanted something today. So, I bought Bridgestone Dueller A/T's, with the idea that if I don't like them, I can trade them in for the Michelin's within 30 days.

So, here's my question, I need your thoughts on which is the better tire for the element. I need something that is good in snow/rain/sleet, and I do quite a bit of gravel road driving in all seasons.

What do you think. All advice will really be appreciated.

harrysmith500
11-15-2005, 11:21 PM
Okay, you are comparing do different category of tires. The michelin in by far the most superior tire on the market. Why? The sidewalls when unmounted feel like the would blow out with even 5 psi in them. This is why so many people love these tires, the SMOOTH ride. Not the best traction but the best ride, hands down. We just put them on our 99 powerstoke 15 passenger van, and it smoothed that 1 ton beast out. Now did you get the REVO's or just the original dueler. Great mileage out of these with better winter tracton, not the same superior ride or the michelin prestiege. What i think you should go with is the (even though i hate to say) the BFG AT. These are made by michelin and carry the same technology with EXCELLENT traction, ride, and mileage. Obviously they are more aggresive and will get very high mileage for an all terrain tire. This is the best all round tire. I just don't like them because everyone in Utah has them and their French.:mad: Or if you really want the Michelin name go for the LTX AT. A little more agressive but built on the LTX MS platfrom. Hope I didn't bore you. Any Questions???:twisted:

deckeda
11-15-2005, 11:22 PM
Is that the D693? http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Dueler+A%2FT+D693&partnum=17SR6AT693OBL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=29

Seems to have gotten some good reviews.

If I lived in Minnesota I'd aim for dedicated winter tires such as

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Blizzak+DM-Z3&partnum=17QR6BZDMZ3&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=1

or perhaps the Nokians that are popular with some here. Toss 'em on some steelies and keep regular tires for good weather on your regular rims.

Imamonkey
11-16-2005, 07:17 AM
Is that the D693? http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Dueler+A%2FT+D693&partnum=17SR6AT693OBL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=29

Seems to have gotten some good reviews.

If I lived in Minnesota I'd aim for dedicated winter tires such as

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Blizzak+DM-Z3&partnum=17QR6BZDMZ3&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=1

or perhaps the Nokians that are popular with some here. Toss 'em on some steelies and keep regular tires for good weather on your regular rims.

I should have clarified. Yes, these are D693's, not the Revo's. The Revo's are not available in the size I want. I don't want to go up any more than 225 70 16.

I had discussed winter tires, thinking about getting the Blizzak's, but decided that, for me, that would be overkill. Besides, I would have needed to buy 8 tires (4 to replace my Wranglers and 4 for winter), plus 4 new rims. The cost was prohibitive. The other thing that I thought about is that I've heard Winter tires, because of the kind of composite they use, wear out pretty fast, and I have a long commute on pavement, so could only get maybe two winters out of them.

I also looked at the Nokians, but read a pretty thorough review which basically said they are great for traction, but not so good for dry pavement.

I am basically looking for a good all-season mostly highway with some off-road capability. That's my dilemma.

Imamonkey
11-16-2005, 07:24 AM
Okay, you are comparing do different category of tires. The michelin in by far the most superior tire on the market. Why? The sidewalls when unmounted feel like the would blow out with even 5 psi in them. This is why so many people love these tires, the SMOOTH ride. Not the best traction but the best ride, hands down. We just put them on our 99 powerstoke 15 passenger van, and it smoothed that 1 ton beast out. Now did you get the REVO's or just the original dueler. Great mileage out of these with better winter tracton, not the same superior ride or the michelin prestiege. What i think you should go with is the (even though i hate to say) the BFG AT. These are made by michelin and carry the same technology with EXCELLENT traction, ride, and mileage. Obviously they are more aggresive and will get very high mileage for an all terrain tire. This is the best all round tire. I just don't like them because everyone in Utah has them and their French.:mad: Or if you really want the Michelin name go for the LTX AT. A little more agressive but built on the LTX MS platfrom. Hope I didn't bore you. Any Questions???:twisted:

Thanks for the information. One question, when you talk about the BFG A/T's, I think there are more than one type. Can you tell me which one you are referring to?

One thing I should point out. I think I got ripped off, but it is remediable. I had done price comparisons on the Michelin LTX's and found that I could get them for $129 each, which is less than Tire Rack plus shipping. But, when the store said it would take a few days to get them in stock in my size, they suggested the Bridgestone's. My wife has the Bridgestone Dueler's on her Rodeo, and they have performed well (but are little loud). The guy at Tires plus said they were the same price. So, I bought them, only to get home, go onto Tire Rack, and discover the Bridgestone's there are actually alot cheaper ($91 per tire as opposed to $125 for the Michelin's). So, I can have Tires plus get the Michelin's and have them put on for no extra charge, or I can call and ask for a price reduction on the Bridgestone's. I haven't decided yet, which is why I posted this thread. While I wait for more responses (hopefully), I'll look into the B.F. Goodrich A/T's.

spdrcr5
11-16-2005, 08:13 AM
Go with whatever tire you want... just wanted to clarify that the Nokian's... any Nokian tire is awesome on dry pavement. I have been driving on Nokian tires since 1999 and they are a better dry pavement tire than many summer tires plus they have amazing wet and cold/snow/ice grip to go along with that. They last 40-50,000 miles as well. That is not something you can say about most tires on the market.

Now, which Nokian tires did you read that review on? Their All-Season NRW/WR or one of their winter Hakkapeliitta tires?

You are correct about wanting to skip a true winter tire like the Blizzak. Most people that purchase those types of tires never look to see what sort of mileage they will get out of them for 90% of their driving... which no matter where you live in the lower 48 is on asphalt/blacktop/concrete. Very little of the driving is done exclusively on snow/ice. Blizzak tires can begin to chunk after only several hundred miles of continuous dry weather driving. I know, i have seen it happen to friend's cars. Even Green Bay doesn't stay cold enough with enough snow/ice on the road to warrant Blizzak tires.

rl_mcc
11-16-2005, 11:28 AM
That price does seem a little high.
About 18 months ago, I paid $125 per tire for the Bridgestone Dueler At D693 in a 255/75/16 for my Frontier. The price was out-the-door including lifetime rotation & balancing from America's Tire.
I've used these tires on 4 of my last 5 trucks & have been very satisfied with them (plus, they're less $$ that Michelin & BFG). Every weather condition from white-outs in the Sierras, rain on busy SoCal streets/freeways, & dirt/sandy/gravel roads in the desert.

Rod

harrysmith500
11-16-2005, 12:19 PM
BFG AT
This is the tire that is very popular, I believe it is the BFG All Terrain KO.
The michelins should be a lot more by a large margin than any other tire in it's category. And yes winter tires are "winter tires" because of the soft rubber compound. you can actually smell the rubber of the tires on a warm dry day after some aggressive and intense driving. So consequently they do wear out faster. You will be most happy with the BFG's.

T Mac
11-16-2005, 12:40 PM
Interesting..Discount Tire's online site has these LTX M/S tires for $179 bucks each. Ouch!

DOGBOX
11-16-2005, 02:35 PM
I just received a direct mail piece from the local Firestone shop..They have a special on the Dueler AT's for $109 per tire. That is likely without the added balancing, etc.

I was thinking about those myself. Just haven't come to grips with dealing with the Firestone shop (vs the Les Schwab just a few blocks down with its far superior customer service).

Honu
11-16-2005, 06:02 PM
Don't be slammin' the Nokians for fair weather performance!
I agree with the viewpoint above that these pricey tires are amazing traction in ALL conditions.

Although the Nokian WR SUV's are rated at a respectable 40k miles, the LTX will generally wear longer, according to all the reviews I read and should be ALMOST as good traction....according to the reviews.

From what I read though, the LTX's are NOT cheap and will set you back about the same amount as the Nokian WR SUV's.

Imamonkey
11-16-2005, 09:32 PM
I just received a direct mail piece from the local Firestone shop..They have a special on the Dueler AT's for $109 per tire. That is likely without the added balancing, etc.

I was thinking about those myself. Just haven't come to grips with dealing with the Firestone shop (vs the Les Schwab just a few blocks down with its far superior customer service).

I solved my dilemma--by paying the price you just quoted on the Bridgestone's.

After writing my last few responses in this thread, I called Tires Plus, talked to the guy who sold me the Bridgestone's (he was the store manager, it turned out), and gave him two options (nicely, though), either he could match Tire Rack's price on the Dueler's ($91 + $12 shipping per tire) or he could switch them out for the Michelin's at the same price I had originally paid. He said he could knock $18 per tire off of the Dueler's, and let me decide (bringing the price to $110, but with free mounting--saving me another $10 per tire). So, I kept the Bridgestone's. For the same money as I originally paid for the Bridgestone's, I would have gone with the Michelin's, but at a savings of $18 per tire, I think I'll be satisfied with what I have. It sounds like the Michelin's wear better, have a smoother ride, and better snow traction, but the Bridgestone's have better dirt traction and we have a long steep gravel driveway.

DOGBOX
11-21-2005, 06:44 PM
From what I read though, the LTX's are NOT cheap and will set you back about the same amount as the Nokian WR SUV's.

Costco will sell the LTX M/S's for $126 a piece, with mounting/balancing, everything included. I just asked this past weekend.

Honu
11-21-2005, 06:50 PM
Costco will sell the LTX M/S's for $126 a piece, with mounting/balancing, everything included. I just asked this past weekend.

Check out the user reviews of the Michelin LTX tires on the Tire Rack website. I don't think I have seen ANY other tire EVER get so many consistently good reviews, including other michelins. They seem to last more miles than the average Ford car.

Imamonkey
11-23-2005, 01:20 AM
Check out the user reviews of the Michelin LTX tires on the Tire Rack website. I don't think I have seen ANY other tire EVER get so many consistently good reviews, including other michelins. They seem to last more miles than the average Ford car.

I agree with what you've seen in the reviews at Tire Rack. Very nice reviews.

Now that I've had my Bridgestone's for a little over a week, I am beginning to regret my decision, and may still go with the Michelin's (I have 30 days from the date of purchase to decide to get a refund and go with something else). Two things, okay three, things I don't like about the Bridgestones. They are loud. They vibrate at anything over 50 mph (could be balancing, but I think its just the way they are). And most importantly, my gas mileage has decreased in a significant way. I had been getting 23 to 24 mpg on the wranglers. Now, I am down to 20 mpg. Weird. My driving hasn't changed. If anything, I am driving more conservatively, to rule that out.

So, the LTX are touted for great traction on pavement, quiet ride, smooth ride. The only thing I don't know is if my miles per gallon of gas will increase close to where it was with the wranglers.

Opinions on this issue would be very welcome.

Imamonkey
11-25-2005, 10:49 PM
Okay, I am sure I sound pretty wishy-washy, but I am now definitely going to be sticking with the Bridgestone Duelers. Today, we were supposed to get "less than one inch of snow" in my area. We got about 3 inches. No big deal really, except it came down within a couple of hours, and because it was unexpected, there were no plows when I hit the road today. Also, because it was the day after Thanksgiving, the roads were packed, packing down all the snow. So, it was a very good day to test the winter performance of these tires (and of the E in general). I made it up my steep gravel driveway without any problems. In fact, I didn't slip at all. On the paved roads, I had to gun it to get my car to swerve at all. Cars were in the ditches, but I kept things going smoothly (at safe speeds). Even if I lose a few miles to the gallon (bummer) I guess its the price I pay for better traction (more resistance). I'll be sticking with the Dueller's for sure now.

designeraccd
11-27-2005, 02:55 PM
Good luck with those BS "Duelers", they were o.e. on the '04 CR-V (fwd, auto) that I got rid of yesterday to get my wife a new '05 Element LX auto with AWD. At just over 27K miles they were essentially worn out and for a l-o-n-g time had the grip of...well they were real good at slipping! As per usual Honda puts, IMO, less than desirable rubber on their vehicles and the new Element with GY Wranglers seems to follow suit. They will be removed this week, probably for the Mich. LTX M/S. DFO:|

deckeda
11-27-2005, 08:03 PM
There's a whole line of "Duelers", and designeraccd --- your CR-V probably had 694s: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Dueler+H%2FT+D684&vehicleSearch=true&partnum=07SR5684&fromCompare1=yes

Very different tire.

designeraccd
11-28-2005, 11:18 AM
Whatever they were...a total waste of natural resources, IMhO! DFO:)

kyote321
11-29-2005, 09:39 AM
after extensive research on this site and tirerack.com i've setted on the michelin lts. the other contenders were the duler at, which seems like it could have been noisey and the geolander, which seems like a good buy for the money, but i wanted a cusher ride and longer treadlife. on tirerack, geolander people were at 50k and reported needing new ones in 5-10k, not bad for the price, but i put 30-50k on tires in a year, and i'd like to not have to drop $ again in a year. the michelin lts is the best selling truck tire in america for a reason, and the tesimonials on tirerack of people getting 80-120k on their tires explains why.

anyway, support the french :roll:, roll with michelin!

btw: discount tire will match costco's price of $140 per tire with everything. not bad. i was looking at 1-2 weeks for costco to get them. odd, considering how many of these tires are sold.

Imamonkey
11-30-2005, 09:32 PM
Good luck with those BS "Duelers", they were o.e. on the '04 CR-V (fwd, auto) that I got rid of yesterday to get my wife a new '05 Element LX auto with AWD. At just over 27K miles they were essentially worn out and for a l-o-n-g time had the grip of...well they were real good at slipping! As per usual Honda puts, IMO, less than desirable rubber on their vehicles and the new Element with GY Wranglers seems to follow suit. They will be removed this week, probably for the Mich. LTX M/S. DFO:|

Thanks for the encouragement!:roll: Seriously, though, I appreciate the warning (as I still have time to return the Bridgestones. I don't think I will though. Like someone else said, there are a few varieties of the Bridgestone Dueler A/T, which is kind of dumb for Bridgestone. It seems to me that, when reading the review for the kind I bought "D693," people were generally very satisfied, but there were reviews mixed in there that were the OEM Dueler A/T, which are typically the D693 II and D694--a lesser version than the aftermarket version. Besides, my wife has those OEM Bridgestone's on her Rodeo, which has 43,000, and they have at least 10K good miles on them. We just drove through some pretty good snowing on the curvy country roads tonight in her Rodeo, drove up and down a steep, curvy, gravel snow-covered road, and we never lost grip, ever, and we had it in 2WD the whole time.

So, while the Michelin's would last longer, and give a quieter ride, they probably won't do as well in gravel, and they cost about $100 more. The compromise seems right (although I have agonized over it).

DOGBOX
12-03-2005, 01:53 AM
after extensive research on this site and tirerack.com i've setted on the michelin lts. the other contenders were the duler at, which seems like it could have been noisey and the geolander, which seems like a good buy for the money, but i wanted a cusher ride and longer treadlife. on tirerack, geolander people were at 50k and reported needing new ones in 5-10k, not bad for the price, but i put 30-50k on tires in a year, and i'd like to not have to drop $ again in a year. the michelin lts is the best selling truck tire in america for a reason, and the tesimonials on tirerack of people getting 80-120k on their tires explains why.

anyway, support the french :roll:, roll with michelin!

btw: discount tire will match costco's price of $140 per tire with everything. not bad. i was looking at 1-2 weeks for costco to get them. odd, considering how many of these tires are sold.

Did you get the LTX or the LTX M/S? I got the M/S tonight at Costco. The price was not $140 as you quoted, but $133 per tire. I drove 25 miles home and was instantly impressed at the difference. My E always had a tendency to pull--usually to the left. I've had it re-aligned twice but it always had a wierd feel. Change tires and all that is COMPLETELY gone. It tracks as straight as straight can be. Can't believe that those Goodyears were really THAT BAD. I mean, I knew they were bad, but that bad....well, thank god they are now history. It was raining to beat the band all the way home, and my M/S's rode with confidence.

shawnblog
12-07-2005, 01:39 PM
I just got 4 new Bridgestone Dueler APT III 225/70/16 from Sears for $112 each. I can't even find them on tirerack.com which either means they are new (and hopefully better) or they are the OEM crap that someone described earlier in this thread. Anyone know about this tire?

LeadFoot
08-18-2010, 11:09 AM
I just got 4 new Bridgestone Dueler APT III 225/70/16 from Sears for $112 each. I can't even find them on tirerack.com which either means they are new (and hopefully better) or they are the OEM crap that someone described earlier in this thread. Anyone know about this tire?

Digging up this old thread. I'd like to hear how those Bridgestone APT's from Sears have worked out for you.

I've been running the Bridgestone Dueller AT's (693 with the 101S load rating) for the past 65K and they have been phenomenal for me in snow, on gravel, in mud, on the highway and I really want them again, but they are no longer made in 225/70/16. I spoke with Bridgestone's tech/warranty department today to try and narrow down their current line up that would be close to my old AT's. The APT's are close as are the AT 695's sold at sears. They also suggested I look at the Firestone Destination LE and LT's.

Everyone has opinions on tires. One hates a particular model, while another poster raves about the same one. So I take talk of rubber with a huge grain of salt. I just know the Dueller AT 693's were top notch for me the last few years. Time to replace, so I'm gathering quotes, opinions and shopping around.

LeadFoot

Midnite-Writer
08-19-2010, 12:16 AM
I just had a full set of Firestone Destination LEs on my Element, and immediately noticed that the handling became UNSAFE! These thumpy clodhoppers not only steal your gas mileage----they handle like square bricks in a round space! They cannot take a corner doing above 25 mph---they wobble, thump, thud, and feel as if the front tires are at war with the rear tires! Curves are not only challenging---they're dangerous in these tires. Control of the vehicle is compromised by these elephant shoes!

These tires are so horrible that I begged for my old Yoko Geos back! Even after 70,000 miles, my Yoko Geos are still safer than a brand-new set of these clodhoppers! I already ordered my next set of Yoko Geos! My throbbing headache is already feeling better!

LeadFoot
08-19-2010, 07:54 AM
I just had a full set of Firestone Destination LEs on my Element, and immediately noticed that the handling became UNSAFE! These thumpy clodhoppers not only steal your gas mileage----they handle like square bricks in a round space! They cannot take a corner doing above 25 mph---they wobble, thump, thud, and feel as if the front tires are at war with the rear tires! Curves are not only challenging---they're dangerous in these tires. Control of the vehicle is compromised by these elephant shoes!

These tires are so horrible that I begged for my old Yoko Geos back! Even after 70,000 miles, my Yoko Geos are still safer than a brand-new set of these clodhoppers! I already ordered my next set of Yoko Geos! My throbbing headache is already feeling better!

Wow! Wobble, thump, thud and can't corner over 25 mph? That's good to know about the LE's on an Element. The LE is a much rounder shape than I prefer, so after seeing them yesterday they were scratched off my list. Another dealer tried to get me to buy the Kelly Safari Signature tires which were on sale for $129 per tire. They looked pretty good and the Goodyear salesman was really giving me the pitch on them. I know they score high in ratings/reviews, but I passed.

I ordered the Bridgestone Dueller APT's yesterday which includes a 30 day period where if I am not satisfied, I can switch. The Geolanders were on my list and the price is about the same as the APT's, but I need a little more aggressive tread for the gravel, snow, rain I have to deal with throughout the year. The APT's have a nice square shoulder and tread just like the Dueller AT 693's that I have on my Element. I'm hoping it is an easy transition for me and that I certainly avoid what you are experiencing with the Firestone Destination LE's. If so, I will swap out to something else that scores well.

Sorry you are going through that.

Many of these tires have changed and been updated with newer technology since Consumer Reports did this rating test a few years ago, but it is what it is for all terrains... (the Bridgestone Dueller APT III's are upgraded to APT IV's which came out in the last year and are a much improved tire, so I'm pretty excited that they are way up on the list). I see your Destination LE's a bit down the list and the Geolanders don't score well in either category which is odd. I've got to go with Consumer Reports.

All terrain tires...

Nitto Terra Grappler AT
80.
Bridgestone Dueler APT III
74.
Bridgestone Dueler A/T Revo
73.
Toyo Open Country A/T
72.
Kumho Road Venture AT
70.
Hankook Dynapro AT RF08
69.
Cooper Discoverer ATR
67.
Firestone Destination A/T
67.
BF Goodrich Rugged Trail T/A
63.
Yokohama Geolandar A/T + II
63.
Goodyear Wrangler AT/S
62.
Uniroyal Laredo AWT
59.
Continental ContiTrac TR
40.


And for light truck tires....


Goodyear Fortera HL Edition
75.
Pirelli Scorpion STR A
71.
Hankook DynaPro AS RH03
68.
Kelly Safari Signature
64.
Dayton Timberline HT
64.
Hankook DynaPro AT RF08
62.
Dunlop Radial Rover AT
61.
General AmeriTrac SUV (Sears)
61.
Uniroyal Laredo Cross Country
61.
Toyo Radial Open Country M410
59.
Kumho Road Venture HT
59.
Firestone Destination LE
59.
Bridgestone Dueler H/T D684
58.
Uniroyal Laredo All Season AWP
58.
Michelin XC LT4 (Sears)
58.
Cooper Discoverer H/T
57.
Michelin LTX M/S
57.
Yokohama Geolandar H/T-S G051
56.
Michelin Cross Terrain
54.
Continental ContiTrac SUV
54.
Kelly Safari SUV
51.
BFGoodrich Radial Long Trail T/A

LeadFoot

jazzy007
08-20-2010, 01:41 AM
Many of these tires have changed and been updated with newer technology since Consumer Reports did this rating test a few years ago, but it is what it is for all terrains... (the Bridgestone Dueller APT III's are upgraded to APT IV's which came out in the last year and are a much improved tire, so I'm pretty excited that they are way up on the list). I see your Destination LE's a bit down the list and the Geolanders don't score well in either category which is odd. I've got to go with Consumer Reports.


This list is definitely good for buying a used tire, but I could not found lots of them for news tire. :?
And consumer report, don't get me start it. :|

LeadFoot
08-20-2010, 03:51 AM
This list is definitely good for buying a used tire, but I could not found lots of them for news tire. :?
And consumer report, don't get me start it. :|

They test different types of tires each time they do a test. They do have some guidelines though which limits what is and isn't tested. So some things get left off of the list.

Here's what CR says on their forum...

I agree the BFG All Terrain K/O is a very popular tire line, but it is only available in light truck (LT metric) tire sizes. The KO is a hard-core all terrain tire whereas we test the "soft" all terrain models in the car size P metric configuration like those that come as original equipment on new light duty vehicles.

This year, the fall November issue will have test results for 54 models of UHP Summer and All Season tires, and performance winter tires. So we're out of luck for an updated all terrain list. Consumer Reports claims that 2011 will be the year they test SUV and pickup tires again. In the meantime, the premium tires on that list continue to perform well and most are available for purchase (and in many cases have received tweaks or slight upgrades since last tested).

And, as always, each individual has to consider how they use their vehicle and pick trade offs for the tire model choice to meet the majority of needs that one considers important in their driving. And yes - Consumer Reports is just one source. It's a good source - especially for those who only keep their Elements on pavement (that's the target audience of their tire tests). There are other sources available for those heading off of the pavement...

So what works in San Jose ain't gonna cut it in say a Midwest locale that includes gravel, snow, ice, rain, humidity, flooded roads, farming roads, etc... . And what works in the Midwest for a rural driver ain't gonna cut it in San Jose dealing with multiple lane freeways in rush hour, heat, high speed driving and getaway weekends. ;-]

LeadFoot

jazzy007
08-20-2010, 12:21 PM
Here's what CR says on their forum...

I agree the BFG All Terrain K/O is a very popular tire line, but it is only available in light truck (LT metric) tire sizes. The KO is a hard-core all terrain tire whereas we test the "soft" all terrain models in the car size P metric configuration like those that come as original equipment on new light duty vehicles.

I am just so amuse on some web/magazine review use fairly subjective word, like "soft" all terrain. What does "soft" mean, soft tire, not able to go off pavement? :?
I assume there is also "hard" all terrain, as hard tire? :?
They use subjective word & their "rating", so they could review with "their standard" & use these objective word to explain how effective their standard & rating is good in their way. Yes, their review is in control, fully control in their own way. :|

Personally, I want to see either video show tire in action for all control environment, or just show fact with data, like picture of tire use after xxx miles, how fast can the car take off on pavement/dirt, how fast can car stop, how fast can car turn corner without losing control.

But maybe is just me want to see data, as in parametric number, instead of trusting "their" rating.

LeadFoot
08-20-2010, 12:47 PM
I am just so amuse on some web/magazine review use fairly subjective word, like "soft" all terrain. What does "soft" mean, soft tire, not able to go off pavement? :?
I assume there is also "hard" all terrain, as hard tire? :?
They use subjective word & their "rating", so they could review with "their standard" & use these objective word to explain how effective their standard & rating is good in their way. Yes, their review is in control, fully control in their own way. :|

Personally, I want to see either video show tire in action for all control environment, or just show fact with data, like picture of tire use after xxx miles, how fast can the car take off on pavement/dirt, how fast can car stop, how fast can car turn corner without losing control.

But maybe is just me want to see data, as in parametric number, instead of trusting "their" rating.

Well, yes there are soft and hard rubber compounds. And they both perform very differently in terms of rolling resistance and on pavement as well as on dirt. And there are tires that make a compromise in rubber compound to be able to do both. But we're driving Elements here. These are not high performance cars. Nor are they designed for off road use. In spite of that, I enjoy running a premium tire - especially after eeking out 32K on those horrible Wrangler HP's. :lol:

I'm a tire nut for mountain bike racing - so don't get me started talking about rubber, tread, knobs, rolling resistance, sidewall strength, etc... when it comes to what works on dirt, gravel, roots, rocks, pavement, pine needles and any combination of all of that.

jazzy007
08-20-2010, 01:54 PM
Well, yes there are soft and hard rubber compounds. And they both perform very differently in terms of rolling resistance and on pavement as well as on dirt. And there are tires that make a compromise in rubber compound to be able to do both. But we're driving Elements here. These are not high performance cars. Nor are they designed for off road use. In spite of that, I enjoy running a premium tire - especially after eeking out 32K on those horrible Wrangler HP's. :lol:

I'm a tire nut for mountain bike racing - so don't get me started talking about rubber, tread, knobs, rolling resistance, sidewall strength, etc... when it comes to what works on dirt, gravel, roots, rocks, pavement, pine needles and any combination of all of that.

These are good stuff to talk about detail objective data info on the tire, unfortunately I just don't see CS helping us understand more objective parametric type of data to support their "rating", & help us choice the right tire. I will give them credit for using great marketing resource to help build a "positive" perception of how they are aways "in control" of their test, without have to publish objective parametric type of data in detail.

Sorry for being such of objective data driving type of person, but personally I just don't take subjective rating for grand. I would rather be my own boss & make my own decision, base on objective data provided from website/magazine.

LeadFoot
08-20-2010, 05:51 PM
Sorry for being such of objective data driving type of person, but personally I just don't take subjective rating for grand. I would rather be my own boss & make my own decision, base on objective data provided from website/magazine.

Oh, I agree. Feel and function are best determined by the individual owner. It's just the Consumer Reports or other magazines or online ratings give a nice starting point to survey the available models since we can't really buy sets of 4 and test a bunch until we find something we like with a price of $500 - 800+. I can do it on mountain bikes because a pair of tires are only $60 - $120 making it more affordable to try things out (and mixing and matching is allowed). Hard to do that with car tires.

And with any tire, there is always somebody who likes it, raves about it and promotes it while somebody else hates it, calls it trash and spreads negativity about it wherever they post - so objectivity gets tossed out the window when it comes to talking rubber on the wheels. Well, that is except for the Wrangler HP which I think we can all agree are best tossed in the rubber tire pile of doom as soon as they start to wear out.:lol:

As an example, my wife's Mercury Mariner still has the original Continental OE tires on it and she is approaching 65K and in need of new tires. Going back and reading all of the reviews - the tires were nearly burned at the stake by all reviewers. Yet, these tires have performed very well for her the past 5 years and even I like them. Nobody in the reviews does, though.:? And I'm sure what I replace them with will irk ire in some, but be loved by others. However, I am looking at the Consumer Reports testing as a starting point. Throw in an upcoming rebate sale and new rubber will be had in 2 weeks.

LeadFoot

jazzy007
08-21-2010, 01:45 AM
Personally, I would prefer starting at Tirerack review than CS.
It give me more point of view from all the consumers like us, who shared with each other real life experience, instead of single review from lab of single website/magazine.

Couple examples as one could find:

477 reviews for General Grabber HTS:
"www.tirerack.com/survey/SurveyComments.jsp?additionalComments=y&commentStatus=P&tireMake=General&tireModel=Grabber+HTS&fromTireDetail=true&tirePageLocQty="

1874 reviews for BFGoodrich All-Terrain T/A KO
"www.tirerack.com/survey/SurveyComments.jsp?additionalComments=y&commentStatus=P&tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=All-Terrain+T%2FA+KO&fromTireDetail=true&tirePageLocQty="

even 69 for newly release Michelin LTX M/S2
"www.tirerack.com/survey/SurveyComments.jsp?additionalComments=y&commentStatus=P&tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=LTX+M%2FS2&fromTireDetail=true&tirePageLocQty="

If I could not get objective data, I certainly is going to trust tenths or hundred or thousand of subjective result from regular consumers amount us, maybe lots of them are also EOC members, rather than just one & only website/magazine. :-)

LeadFoot
08-21-2010, 09:11 AM
Personally, I would prefer starting at Tirerack review than CS.....If I could not get objective data, I certainly is going to trust tenths or hundred or thousand of subjective result from regular consumers amount us, maybe lots of them are also EOC members, rather than just one & only website/magazine. :-)

Understood.

I hope you're not running the BFG All-Terrain KO's in San Jose, though.;-)

LeadFoot

jazzy007
08-21-2010, 11:30 AM
Understood.

I hope you're not running the BFG All-Terrain KO's in San Jose, though.;-)

LeadFoot

I don't have BFG, I have new Michelin LTX M/S2.
For offroad, not in San Jose, but CA beach is a lot of fun, every year we also go up to 7,000-10,000+ ft eastern & western sierra mountain, like Mammoth Lakes, Bishop, Bridgeport, Owens Valley, Sequoia Monument, Golden Trout Wildness .... Tons of challenging offroad within couple hours of drive from SJ. Not as good as Utah or Colorado, but still lots of fun.
I actually tune back a lot from past 15+ years. I used to own a lifted Toyota 4x4 pickup, & then a 4x4 Toyota 4Runner with rear locker. Use the locker couple times in the past to get myself out of serious trouble in old volcanic sand in eastern sierra.
We still go to eastern/western sierra last/this year with E after my 4RNR totaled & replaced with E in 2009, just choose my trail wisely right now. ;-)

LeadFoot
12-08-2013, 11:25 AM
Update on the the set of Bridgestone Dueller APT IV's I bought from Sears back in 2010...

Here we are 3 weeks away from the beginning of 2014 and this set is approaching 60K and they still have tread for what looks to be at least another 5K+, but I am starting the process of figuring out what to buy next. Today is our 1st significant amount of snowfall for the year (probably get about 5" or so), and I'll be out driving in it.

These APT IV's really have been excellent performers for my needs, so have to back up the original Consumer Reports review that led me to them. Lots of gravel, snow, pavement, bike hauling, trailer pulling, camping, dog hauling, short commuting, wet roads - both gravel and pavement, etc...

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2876/9126207874_0b54f4a62b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/9126207874/)
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(http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8936117352/)

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(http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8414932447/)

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(http://www.flickr.com/photos/7166535@N05/8286511536/)

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Sears doesn't carry the APT IV's in my size any more (225/70/16).

I'm looking at 2 sizes for the next set of rubber - either stick with 225/70/16, or give the 225/75/16's a whirl (something visually rugged like the Hankook Dynapro ATM's (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=951705&postcount=586) or the BFG AT's (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74356)). Both of those links are the 225/75/16's - about the max I could put on the Element, but I think they look pretty rugged and cool on both of those Elements pictured at the links.

Who knows what I will end up with, but I am going to check with the latest Consumer Reports Light SUV/Truck reviews to see what has been updated since the one I linked earlier in this thread when I was shopping for the APT IV's.

Top 5 (not sure if they all come in sizes for the Element) from the latest review were:

Cooper Discoverer A/T3 ($150)
The others, all of which tied for second place, were the...
Michelin LTX A/T2 ($180)
Hankook Dynapro ATM ($175)
Kumho Road Venture AT KL78 ($130)
Kumho Road Venture SAT KL61 ($139)

Here are both the all-season light truck tires and the all-terrain top 5 picks in the 2013 CR ratings...

* All-season light truck tires: Michelin LTX M/S2, 72; Michelin X Radial LT2, 72; Continental CrossContact LX20 EcoPlus, 72; Michelin Latitude Tour HP, 72; Michelin Latitude Tour, 72.

* All-terrain tires: Cooper Discoverer A/T3, 66; Michelin LTX A/T2, 64; Hankook Dynapro ATM, 64; Kumho Road Venture AT KL78, 64; Kumho Road Venture SAT KL61, 64.