How the mighty have fallen.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/national/2005/12/20/toyota-051220.html

:sad: I feel bad for the GM workers and their families

I feel bad for them too...but you can only blame the company. If they made better cars, they wouldn't be in this mess.

GM has been brought to its knees by its arrogance and ignorance and as usual the rank and file always end up paying the price.

I have had several GM'S IN THE PAST. I would not look at one today. My 1970 Trans AM was one of the best cars I have ever had. It only got 15 to 17 mpg. but gas was only 25 to 33 cents per gal. then. The last Gm I had was a dog. it was in the shop more than in my yard. It took a court fight to get my money back. It only had 2600 miles on it. I will never look at a GM car or truck as long as I live. The Isuzu troopers were good, and I wish I could get another new one. As you know GM took them over. Now the Isuzu is just another GMC pice of ****. I had to go looking, wanted an Isuzu. It was gone now. Hello Toy/Honda
. After looking at each, I went for test drives. The E came out on top by only the smalest number of points.
I can see how GM is losing the edge. The Question is how come they can't. They want a blind following. Those days are gone ! They went out with the 35 cent gas. GM may do the same.

I'll say this much, it isn't all GM's fault...most of the blame is on the Japanese for buying up all of the companies that supplies them and then not selling them parts. This is why it has been so hard for American automakers to get into the Hybrid market...the Japanese will not allow it. But...GM could have kept it's consumer base by continuing to sell good cars, even if they were losing some of the money going toward overhead....not just sell cheaper cars at cheaper prices. Look at Pontiac, complete piece of garbage. You can buy 2004 and 2005 models from auctions for pennies!

I'm a fan of the new GTO, but only for the LS2 engine...otherwise, they stunk up the room with the redesign on that one (Holden Monaro belongs in Austrailia...they could have attempted what Ford did with the new Mustang trying to bring back the classic "look" of the 60's Stangs)...otherwise, yes, complete pieces of garbage is what GM has put out, in all forms...their interiors are enough to make you puke....looks like 5 year olds put them together and used leftover parts from the old plastic toys...

Dave.

That's what happens when you sell your soul to the mammoth SUV devil...

They'll be fine...they'll just get a huge taxpayer funded bailout to save them from all the idiotic decisions they've made over the years...the executives in charge will get huge bonuses for "rescuing the company" and they'll still manage to take another huge chunk of worker's rights, jobs, incentives, quality wages, decent retirement, and throw it all out the window...or at least to India and China (great thanks to these patriotic idiots that call this once great land home). But hey...I'm not jaded at all about these things :)

and they'll still manage to take another huge chunk of worker's rights, jobs, incentives, quality wages, decent retirement, and throw it all out the window...or at least to India and China (great thanks to these patriotic idiots that call this once great land home).

Sounds like another company we all know, and most hate

I'm not mentioning any names though.................





















.............Wal Mart

Hey, I work for a company that has its HR department in India...and it sucks! Gotta love the good ole U S of A! Or at least its businesses.

gm used to be a great company...my grandfather worked for them for 35 years....my dad still has a 1972 chevy truck...that runs!.....some of there stuff is still good and some isn't...it's like hit or miss...you may get a good one or you may get a lemon..lol.....don't let me even get started on fords.....lemons!......it's like american cars just don't last very long anymore...they used too...what happened?....did they forget how to make cars to last?...my grandfather had a dodge dart from like the 60's and that thing still runs fine...go figure .......it's funny how things change....probably some kind of marketing scheme to sell more cars.....well long story short..i work for honda

Also look at the line up of cars. Honda doesn't make the same car 4 times with a different badge on it. Come on do they think we are that dumb anymore? GM shoots it self in the foot with all these brands that have the same car....

In addition to all its other problems that result in ugly, crummy cars, those old, and not so old, labor contracts haunt GM. For instance, I find their "Jobs Bank" incredible. From the December 15 WSJ:


A good place to start is with its "jobs bank," which is the company's euphemism for a post-employment limbo in which GM pays laid off members of the United Auto Workers not to work. If you want to know why GM's costs are too high for the number of cars it sells, here's one explanation.

GM doesn't like to talk about the "jobs bank," to the point that it won't disclose how many idled workers are in the bank or even how much it costs the company. However, the Detroit Free Press has dug around and reported that the "bank" holds some 5,000-6,000 employees, at an annual cost of as much as $800 million a year. And that's just the beginning of the damage it does.

The jobs bank was created in 1984 at a time when it became fashionable to worry that automation would cause robots to replace workers on factory floors. So in exchange for the right to introduce productivity improvements in factories, GM, Ford and Chrysler all consented to jobs banks. The idea was that in exchange for educating themselves, doing community service or in some cases just sitting around a factory, workers would continue to collect pay and benefits until the automaker could find another job for them.

One trouble is that U.S. car makers have been shrinking more than growing in the two decades since, meaning people have stayed in the bank longer than envisioned. The commitment to find a new job for those workers only made sense in an environment in which GM's demand for labor was stable or growing. Instead, that demand has been steadily shrinking as productivity has increased and market share has decreased.

This pincer movement has turned the jobs bank itself -- and worse, the commitment it represents -- into a millstone around GM's neck. The jobs bank sends a message that downsizing is temporary, and that GM can accommodate those workers somewhere. The reality is that many of them are simply waiting out retirement.

In one recent Reuters story, a worker in the jobs bank by the name of Dean Braid was quoted as saying that he hoped the bank wasn't eliminated when the United Auto Workers' contract with GM runs out in 2007 because by then he'll be two years from retirement with full benefits. If Mr. Braid is still in the jobs bank when retirement rolls around in 2009, he will have spent a decade, or one-third of his career with GM, "in the bank."
And for every Mr. Braid in the bank, there could be as many as 10 GM workers who could be idled but are kept on assembly lines that are kept running at a loss, simply because the alternative is paying them to mow grass or play cards. In other words, the jobs bank has become a disincentive for GM management to take the necessary steps to reduce costs because the company has to keep paying laid off workers even if they don't work.

GM has a host of problems, from the attractiveness of its product lines to the health-care costs it pays for its one million retirees. But a major one is size: It is a smaller company than it was or expected to be when it made the promises it's now trying to keep both to retirees and current workers. GM has some of the most productive industrial workers in the world, but it has too many of them for the number of cars it can sell today.

GM still can make a reliable car......I had a 94 Saturn (i sold it in 2002) that had almost 200k miles on it, and the only things i had changed on it were the tires, oil, alternator, and two batteries.

that's it.

GM has been surviving on a bubble for a long time. Thinking that they are the biggest and baddest and are invulnerable to an attack. So the result is crap cars for the last 2 decades and hope nobody noticed. Most GM cars are sold to fleet accounts, they need to do this to stay afloat, but make very little money doing it, notice how you never see a toyota or Honda at a rental car company. Their sales tactics are flawed. Instead of building value in their vehicles, they try to bribe buyers with incentives and emploee pricing. This creates a short-term sales frenzy, but further erodes their branding and market share. Not to mention all their brands, they canniblize (sp) themselves.

The problem is Japanese companies look 10-20 years ahead when they plan, U.S. companies look ahead 1 fiscal quarter. Japanese companies hope they can sell you a quality car and have you return again many years later. GM and U.S. companies hope that they can get you to buy once, then kill you on parts and labor and/or have you have to buy again soon.
Steel

The problem is Japanese companies look 10-20 years ahead when they plan, U.S. companies look ahead 1 fiscal quarter. Japanese companies hope they can sell you a quality car and have you return again many years later. GM and U.S. companies hope that they can get you to buy once, then kill you on parts and labor and/or have you have to buy again soon.
Steel
That is a very true statement...and it seems to be working for them.

Pftt* Good news for Japan. Bad news for the USA. A colossal screw up of gargantuan porportions. Loosing 35% of your market share to a foregin competior is a National Disgrace! This wouldn't be allowed to happen in Japan. How could our government just stand on the side lines and let this happen? And how come none of our numb nut political twits haven't raise a holler about it? Why is it that we haven't we heard squat out of our dangling twit politicians? The country should be outraged over it. Apparently nobody gives a rats butt. The chickens have come home to roost and we're about to be buried under tons of bird turds.

Politicians didn't design and manufacture GM's crummy cars.

:cool:

Hiker Chick: Of course they did. Where where you when Cheney came out in support of gas guzzling Full size SUVs? Guess you missed that one huh? It's taken 10 yrs for this to happen and our politicians and leaders just stood by and watched it all unfold. Aw geewiz we can't critisize GM. When our economy goes into the tank and becomes stagnant or worse we can always depend on GM to drop thier draws and give their cars away. They won't be doing that anymore because they've tapped out all thier potential buyers by now. This is whole thing is a bad joke. Like I said this wouldn't of happened in Japan. They would of nipped this foolishness in the bud.

GM still can make a reliable car......I had a 94 Saturn (i sold it in 2002) that had almost 200k miles on it, and the only things i had changed on it were the tires, oil, alternator, and two batteries.

that's it.

I heard a discussion about what happened to Saturns. By the way, I hear the saturn plant has been shut down and saturns will be discontinued, but they will still make big gas guzzling SUV's at that plant....oh boy thats a great move!

Anyway, Saturn STARTED out as the classic "we can do better approach" they have always sold Saturns under, and apparently the EARLY Saturns were a decent little car. But in a classic GM move, they assumed the public is stupid, and figured they could keep selling that IMAGE, but ACTUALLY make the Saturns the same cruddy way they were making all their other cars.

And what do you know...Saturn quality started slipping fast.

And what do you know.....People stopped buying Saturns.

And what do you know....GM found everything but themselves to blame the loss of sales on.

I am proud to drive my made in America Honda Element, and am fine with the fact that they pay American WORKERS, but outsource the managment. :)

Better than my Mexican made Ford. But that Ford had no problems for as long as I had it...so I guess I was lucky.

This is whole thing is a bad joke. Like I said this wouldn't of happened in Japan. They would of nipped this foolishness in the bud.

You must have forgotten about Daewoo then:rolleyes:

I am proud to drive my made in America Honda Element, and am fine with the fact that they pay American WORKERS, but outsource the managment. :)
Amen, brother.

There's actually a great article in the current Playboy about this Toyota / GM thing.

GM has a lot of problems, but less in the quality department than you would think. In fact, a couple of their models have consistently won more awards and had higher satisfaction ratings than Toyota's equivalent model, but the press would never let you know it.

To right that ship... GM should basically get rid of Pontiac and GMC Trucks... truly market Buick as a high-end line and take a hint from Honda and Toyota about the interiors of their cars being laid out properly. They're always an afterthought.

Style is a big deal too... look to the Chrysler 300... it's bold. Hell look at our own E's... people love them or hate them, but they evoke an emotional response, which is a rare thing for the current GM lineup (Caddies are the one of the few that stand out).

Toyota gets a free pass sometimes (as does Honda) because they are Toyota. The key difference in the end has been that Toyota fixes problems on the first try... (like Honda generally) but the "American" cars have continuous problems. GM has improved that recently, but how do you get a generation of buyers to look at the product objectively after thinking the product has been junk for 20 years?

Hiker Chick: Of course they did. Where where you when Cheney came out in support of gas guzzling Full size SUVs? Guess you missed that one huh? It's taken 10 yrs for this to happen and our politicians and leaders just stood by and watched it all unfold. Aw geewiz we can't critisize GM. When our economy goes into the tank and becomes stagnant or worse we can always depend on GM to drop thier draws and give their cars away. They won't be doing that anymore because they've tapped out all thier potential buyers by now. This is whole thing is a bad joke. Like I said this wouldn't of happened in Japan. They would of nipped this foolishness in the bud.

It's Cheney's fault?

Japan's politicians don't design and build Toyotas and Hondas, either.

By the way, Japan's economy is not a model to emulate.

For anyone the least interested in the automobile industry and the Japanese dynamic, I highly recommend David Halbertam's "The Reckoning."

The GM "problem" has taken at least 60 years to gel.

gm needs to update it's design in cars....i mean they are so plain looking....there are cool designs like the corvette or something but most people can't afford those

i think a lot of gm's customers are getting older and not buying as many cars....the new generation of car buyers aren't interested in gm's as much....i mean everywhere you go you see some old trailblazer or something going down the road that's just gotten out of the repair shop

let's just compare....of course it's a matter of opinion...but what looks better to you ....the american suv's like the trailblazer, explorer, gmc yukon, jeep cherokee.....or the japanese suv's like the element, rav4, xterra, 4 runner, pilot, or crv

to me the japanese versions are just sportier looking...the american designs just look plain

I'll say this much, it isn't all GM's fault...most of the blame is on the Japanese for buying up all of the companies that supplies them and then not selling them parts. This is why it has been so hard for American automakers to get into the Hybrid market...the Japanese will not allow it. But...GM could have kept it's consumer base by continuing to sell good cars, even if they were losing some of the money going toward overhead....not just sell cheaper cars at cheaper prices. Look at Pontiac, complete piece of garbage. You can buy 2004 and 2005 models from auctions for pennies!

Ok. My thought is that the damned CAW and UAW damand too much money in wages. If the Big 3 would have nipped this in the butt years ago they wouldn't be in such a position!

Geesh* Sure looks like I'm taking some flack on this one. Since no one has got my back on this I'll have to defend myself.

Since when did the Korean company "Dae Woo" turn Japanese? Or was it originally a Japanese company that was sold to Korea? Iquiring minds want to know.

Politicians do have a direct cause and effect on the vehicles that are being built and sold in the USA. Here's how...

CAFE: The Corporate Average Fuel Economy. It's an act of Congress that was mandated into law in 1975 in response to the Arab Oil Embargo of 1973-1974.

CAFE sets the fuel consumption standards for what US auto makers need to achieve and the future developement and production of all vehicles built and sold in the United States are directly effected by it. For the last 40 yrs. the Big 3 US automakers have fought CAFE tooth and nail against reasonable and necessary fuel consumption standards. Crying about lost profits and what have you. The end result is that 40 yrs.since the Arab Oil Embargo the US auto industry hasn't achieved anything worth mentioning. Lately the Big Three have produced gas flushing outhouses like the V10 Ford Expedition (soon to go the way of the dinosuar) GMs gas hog Hummer and everyone of Chrysler and Dodges trucks and SUVs. Heck they even got a Hemi in thier station wagons! WTF is up with that? Does the public really need such vehicles? Of course not. But they get produced anyway. Why? Because our government allows it. What's being done about it? Nothing.

Like everyone else in the EOC I drive a Honda (hubby still drives a Chevy bless his heart) But I refuse to delude myself into thinking that assembling import cars in this country benifits our economy. It doesn't. All the profits go overseas just like the profit on the gasoline we consume in our automobiles. Some poeple think that when we build import cars with american workers all we are really doing is getting paid for making the bullets we'll eventually be shot with. That money will never ever come back to us. It's gone with the wind, Finito Benito, like dust Gus.

I don't know the answers but there's one thing I am sure about. Politicians may not work on the assembly lines building US vehicles but they damn sure are responsible for what is getting built on those assembly lines.

what do american gas guzzling suvs have to do with Toyota overtaking GM? If you bought an SUV for fuel economy, you're probably not an Element owner; our old saturn vue 5spd got us 26-29 mpg. Why did we get rid of it? because it was a POS. I may have only owned 6 vehicles in my short 27 years, but when the seat cushions are wearing out and peeling up from the seat, the wire breaks on the latch to fold your back seats down and the fuel guage stops working all before 30K miles on a car, you get rid of it as fast as you can! We're on our 3rd honda now, and I'm gonna stick with them because they tend to stay in our garage, not the dealer's.

I think everyone is right on this subject. And I back Miss Ellie 100%. Big 3 put all thier eggs in one basket and produce exceptional full size trucks and SUVs. The top selling full size SUV in America is the Chevy Tahoe. It's been on top for years. Why can't they do the same with their passenger cars and smaller trucks and SUVs?

Here something that will really make you shiver... GM builds vehicles in China___ lot's of them. They are in fact the largest producer of vehicles in China. By 2008 GM has concluded it will be more cost effective and profitable to build all of their cars in trucks in China and them ship them back here to sell to the American public. That's a fact. And if they can get away with it that's exactly what they will do. Then what will happen?

Think about that for a moment. It's out sourcing gone bezerk but it's got legs guys.

Maybe that's GMs long term strategy. GM isn't going belly up into bankruptcy, instead they'll move overseas to China produce vehicles there and sell them here. The ramifications are astonishing. As much as a million jobs lost in US production and and related support industries. The American economy in the last 100 yrs. was built on it's automobiles and now it may just get derailed by it.

"It's sundown on the union. Made in the USA. Sure was a good idea until greed got in the way."
Union Sundown: Bob Dylan

...Maybe that's GMs long term strategy. GM isn't going belly up into bankruptcy, instead they'll move overseas to China produce vehicles there and sell them here. ...

I sure hope that there will be folks here that can afford to buy them when they do that... I wonder if their cost analysis considered that...

You must have forgotten about Daewoo then:rolleyes:
Daewoo is Korean isn't it?

Daewoo is Korean isn't it?

By golly I think you are correct!! Either why, what a fart in a stiff wind that venture was...didn't someone else end up buying Daewoo...some American company?

WOW! I didn't know about GMs China Syndrome. That really creeps me out.

Thanks for the back slap Pizmo. I apreciate it. For a moment there I thought I was going to be hog tied, taken hostage and ransomed for Element seat back bungee cords. Might be fun.

Hiker Chick: I do hear where your coming from and agree with most of it. I differ with you on some points and opposing opinions do make a horse race. Have a good holiday. I think we all deserve one.

I LOVE MY HONDA ELEMENT! (and hubby loves his Chevy.. sigh*)