This past week end, I had the fortune of meeting Outpost4 (Greg), and his crew at Sound World.:grin: They installed an Eclipse CD8445 h/u, Kicker RS65.2 component speakers, and my ancient 4 channel ADS PQ10 amplifier. According to his installation crew, they found a crank handle on the amp to power it up:shock: :-o , and that Outpost4 and I invented mono sound....:roll: :confused:

Anyway, before the installation began, we discussed how to power all of the the speakers. We decided to drive the rear speakers with the head unit, the main speakers with the front channel of the PQ10, and the sub with rear channel of the PQ10 to give it some real amplification. (The PQ10 is conservatively rated at 35wrms/channel).

The difference in output from the factory sub was phenomenal. Powering the factory sub with a "real" amplifier really brought it to life. The bass reinforcement is much better and more noticeable now. Don't get me wrong, it is not a replacement for a true sub-woofer, but it is a viable, cheaper, alternative until you can afford the $1000+ for a sub, sub-amp, install.

Greg called it the Mike(1mrdad) mod, but in reality, we both thought of the same idea.

His crew did a top shelf job with the install. It sounds great, and it looks stock. Greg was a very cordial and gracious host.

My thanks to Outpost4 and his crew.

Mike, it was a good idea whose time had come. :) I just think that Mike's Mod sounds too cool. :cool:

It was also a great pleasure to meet Mike. He's a really good guy. :) I'm also going to steal a few Element ideas from him.

This is the real deal, folks. An easy to do, cheap upgrade that dramatically improves the sound of a factory EX stereo system. The weakness of the sub isn't the driver, it's the amp. The size of a paperback book, it's not surprising it's a paper tiger. It was amazing how much better the factory woofer sounded after replacing the amp. We're talking many orders of magnitude here.

What's great is you car stereo junkies out there probably have an amp lying around that will do the job. A very basic stereo amp is all you need. (I am assuming the sub crossover is in the factory deck.) I mentioned in another thread the factory sub is a dual 4 ohm piece, so you just hook up a channel to each voice coil. Don't bridge the amp. The factory sub played with great authority using Mike's PQ10, which is only 20 watts RMS per channel. If you don't have an amp gathering dust in a closet, most any company's bottom of the line stereo amp will do the job well. We're talking $100-150 for the amp here.

I'll post install instructions along the way for Mike's Mod.

AND WHAT? THE BATTERY DIED IN YOUR DIGITAL CAMERA? COME ON GUYS!

:)

Come to think of it I do have some equipment lying around. A Carver 4 x 60 watt amp, a pair of Boston Acoustics 5.0 pro components, a JL 10W-4, a pair of Kicker C10 (they are ROUND). I also have a Soundstream cassette HU that has an aux input (MP3 ready). The Carver Amp needs to be serviced, I figured it would be cheaper to just buy new, so I did. I replaced it with 2 Carver amps a 2X50 to power the BA components that I fabbed fiberglass kickpanel pods for and a 2X90 Carver that was bridged to 180W powering 3 JL 10W6's mounted in a sealed fiberglass enclosure that sat in the spare tire well of my old civic hatchback. Damn, that sounded tight. Some bastard busted open the hatch one night and stole the subs and amps. I can't believe they were able to lift that sucker out of there. :x I had an alpine HU that I left in the car when I sold it. After that randoim act of vandalism I can't bring myself to but any more expensive audio equipment for the car. I started building speakers for the house instead. The new Alpine HU with the built in ipod connection is tempting I must say. As is the JL stealthbox. I installed a killer system in my dad's subaru that might fit the E. He's 75 and might not miss it. LOL Polk coaxials front and rear, dual 10" Impact subs and the real gem is the Blaupunkt 5 channel amp, 50X4, + 200X1. That was THE mulichannel amp that year. That systems gotta be 10 years old. I just haven't been into music that much anymore. Since the era of hip hop. Now I prefer talk radio but I can't pick between XM (air america) or Sirius (howard stern). All I get locally is neocon propaganda. Typing my stream of conciousness again, ooops. :shock:

AND WHAT? THE BATTERY DIED IN YOUR DIGITAL CAMERA? COME ON GUYS!
We both took this wonderful picture but somehow we went brain dead while the install was taking place. Hey, cut us some slack. We are both old. I can't speak for Mike but I was having a blonde day. :rolleyes:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/mikeme.jpg

Humm...I guess install needs a new coat of paint this spring...

AND WHAT? THE BATTERY DIED IN YOUR DIGITAL CAMERA? COME ON GUYS!

OK. It is time for some rebuttal. Because I am using an amplifier with a wind-up handle did you stop to think that maybe I am still in the Film Age? And, unlike Greg I did not have a "Blonde moment" I did think about taking pictures of the actual install. Number one I am bald, so blond hair is not an issue. Secondly, and more importantly, I did not want to disturb the doctors with picture taking and hovering while they were performing surgery on the Element. Lastly, Greg did such a good job of being the host and tour guide, we were not there for most of the install.

All kidding aside, because it is a basic system and because the install team did such excellent work, there is nothing remarkable to see.

All that said, here are the post surgery pics.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/EclipseCD8445.jpg
Eclipse CD8445

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/RS65.jpg
Kicker RS65.2

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/Crossovers.jpg
RS65.2 crossovers under passenger seat

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/PQ10.jpg
PQ10 under the driver seat

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/AmpandCrossoversRearView.jpg
Amp and crossovers

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/EngineBay.jpg
Under the hood. Looks stock to me.

I forgot to mention that I was able to see and hear Greg's install first hand. The sound is awesome. The custom sub enclosure looks stock, and he has high mounted cup holders(I'm jealous). The GPS with the back up camera is way too cool. His future plans are unbelievable; I am looking forward to seeing them at St. Louis.

After 600 miles and a 21 hour day I ended up with an excellent basic system, a quality install, and as a bonus, I was able to meet Greg.

The last picture caption is correct. It should be Grandad Bluff. My memeory loss is directly related to hair loss, and as Greg can atest, I'm pretty bald.

Um.... yeah.... there's no way I could do that myself :|





I'll post install instructions along the way for Mike's Mod.


The sooner the better.... I'm gonna have to study this one for a while before I get the courage to actually do it :D


(and pics would be nice ;-) )

Mike got it backwards. The best thing on the day was my meeting him. He's a funny, caring guy. He even helped me collect $10,000 a customer owed my store. Mike put on his best Chicago Muscle face and there was no question the customer was going to give me his credit card number.

Mike even picked up the check for breakfast. :)

Thanks again, Mike. Be assured we'll say in contact.

Here are the install instructions for Mike's Mod:

I'm assuming we are doing this on a factory deck. With an aftermarket deck, the install would be even easier. I'm also assuming we're installing the amp under the driver's seat. The wire runs would be the shortest. Add an extra 5' onto the power wire runs if it is going under the passenger's seat.

Parts needed:

basic stereo amp, 20-30 watts RMS per channel
10' - 8 gauge wire, red
10' - 8 gauge wire, black
10' - stereo RCA cable
10' - primary wire (22 gauge single conductor wire)
20' - speaker wire
female inline RCA jack, solder type
Y connector, 1 male to 2 female RCAs
2 - ring terminals to hook up power and ground to the battery
inline fuse holder and fuse, 5 amps bigger than the one in your new sub amp
misc. wire ties and split loom to dress wires
solder, soldering iron, wire cutters, black tape, crimp caps, other basic tools
six pack of beer (or iced tea - Mike doesn't drink :) )

Before you start, make sure you have the radio code (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18882&highlight=radio+code) for your factory radio. We are going to disconnect it from power in the next step. It would be a shame to do this whole install and not be able to turn your radio back on.

Disconnect the positive wire from the battery.

Remove the head unit from the dash. (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=90432#post90432)
Remove the subwoofer cover (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5834&highlight=remove+subwoofer) and the factory sub (four screws)
Remove the driver's seat. You may also want to remove part of the floor. (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17677) For Mike's car, we just snaked the wires under the floor and didn't remove it.

Have a beer or iced tea. You've earned it.

Run your RCA cable and primary wire from the deck to the space under the driver's seat where the amp will go.

The subwoofer output on the factory deck is on its own 8 pin plug. There are three wires, two signal and one shield. We aren't hooking up the shield but the wire will be shielded from the amp end so that's OK. The wires you want are red with a blue stripe (sub positive) and red with a white stripe (sub negative). Cut all three wires that connect to this plug, leaving as long a pigtail as you can. You'll need the wire. Solder the female RCA connector onto the red/blue and red/white wires. Plug the female RCA connector into the Y adapter. Plug the other end of the Y adapter into the RCA cable that runs to the amp. Use some black tape to tape these plugs together so they won't jiggle lose.

The primary wire needs to hook up into the yellow wire with a green stripe that comes out of the deck. This wire is located on the deck's main plug with all the speaker connections. Splice the primary wire into this yellow wire with green stripe. You need this for amp turn on. Either crimp or solder your three wires together (the yellow/green that goes to the plug, the yellow/green that goes to the car and the primary wire).

Plug everything back into the deck and put the head unit back into the dash. Don't screw anything down until we make sure it works.

From the battery, run the 8 gauge red and black wires through the firewall (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19524&highlight=wire+firewall) to under the driver's seat. Mount your in-line fuse holder somewhere close to the battery. This is your line of last defense if everything frells up. Hook the fuse holder up to the red wire so that the power passes through it. Using ring terminals, hook up the red and black wires to the positive and negative battery connectors. DO NOT RE-HOOK UP THE BATTERY YET.

Run two lengths of speaker wire from the driver's seat to behind the subwoofer. Cut off the plug that goes into the factory sub, again leaving a long pigtail. Hook the pigtail wires to your two speaker wire runs using crimp caps or solder. Here's your color code:

brown: subwoofer voice coil 1 positive
red: subwoofer voice coil 1 negative
blue: subwoofer voice coil 2 positive
grey/black: subwoofer voice coil 2 negative

Put the sub back into the car.

OK - you should have all of your wires run. The power wire and ground are coming from the battery. The RCA and turn-on wires are coming from the deck. The speaker wires are run to the sub. It's time to hook up the amp.

So, what are you waiting for? Hook up the amplifier. Leave some slack on your wires and don't mount down the amp unless you are absolutely sure you are perfect in every way. Even then, don't mount down the amp.

Make sure the switches on the amp are correct. You want it in stereo, not bridged mono. This way each channel of the amp will see a 4 ohm load and will run happily all day long, staying nice and cool. As Mike reminded me, heat kills amplifiers. If the amp has a sub crossover, you probably want it off, but this could vary. I am assuming here that the sub crossover in the factory system is built into the deck. Using a second one on the amp will give you ugly phase shifts and is just asking for trouble. If when this mod is completed, you here voices coming from the subwoofer, turn on the crossover on the amp. You don't want voices coming from your sub. The gain pots on the amp should be at maximum at this point.

Put the seat back into the car, remembering to re-hook up the airbag if you have one. Note: do not put the key in the ignition without the seat in the car and the airbag hooked up. Othewise you will have to re-set the airbag indicator (http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/dtc_reset.htm).

Attach the positive battery wire to the battery.

Start the car. Turn on the car stereo. Everything works, right? Of course it does. If not, troubleshoot. Do you have power coming to the amp? Are the gain pots turned up on the amp and all switches on it in the correct position? Is the turn-on wire hooked up correctly? This old amp that's been sitting in a closet for the past dozen years does work, right? :rolleyes: RIGHT? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Assuming you have bass, adjust the gain pot(s) on the amp to get the subwoofer balanced with the mains. The sub setting on the deck should be at zero when you do this.

Using a CD, sit back and enjoy your bass for a song or two. Have a beer. :)

You have one more thing to do, either today or sometime later. You have to check phase on the subwoofer. After adding an amp, you have a 50/50 chance of the sub being in phase with the mains. You don't know. Get a CD that has good mid-bass: bass guitar, drums or pipe organ. Play it on your system. Turn off the stereo. Unless you are lucky and your amp has a phase switch, you'll neet to flip the speaker wires. Swap the positive and negative speaker wires for both speakers so that the two positive wires now go into the amp's negative jacks and the two negative wires are hooked up to the positive terminals. You want the sub hooked up backwards from the way it was before. If the amp's connectors are color coded, the positive speaker wires now go to the black terminals, with the negative wires to the red ones.

Listen to the system again. Changing nothing else, if the system has more bass now, the wiring is correct. If it has less, change the wires back to the way they were initially. Whichever way has the most bass is the correct way. Leave it wired up this way.

This may be easier to hear down the road, a week or two later after you've been listening to the system, getting used to your new, powerful bass. If after becoming acclimated to the sound, you swap these wires, you'll hear the difference within a couple of songs. Again, the way with the most bass is the correct way. When you have it hooked up right, the subwoofer and your door speakers are working in together instead of against each other. Bass cancels when the phase is incorrect. It reinforces when it's right.

Mount down the amp. You may have to take the seat back out to do this. If you do, remember to un-hook the battery again.

Put your car back together. Check your driver's window up/down function (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=107753#post107753). Have one more beer. You've just completed Mike's Mod. :)

Um.... yeah.... there's no way I could do that myself :|



:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Um.... yeah.... there's no way I could do that myself :|

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
This is why God made stereo installers. Any good shop should be able to do this easily. Maybe take in the URL of the instructions so that they can follow the links if they have trouble taking something out. My instructions will also give them wiring color codes. They'll need those.

Very nice indepth instructions Gregg. Only problem I see is you have 3 important things left over based on your instructions... :shock:

Can you figure out what you have left over if you follow your instructions? :grin:

Very nice indepth instructions Gregg. Thank you, Larry. Your opinion means a lot to me. :)

Only problem I see is you have 3 important things left over based on your instructions... :shock:

Can you figure out what you have left over if you follow your instructions? :grin:
Let's see. I might have some wire left over but that can't be it. I'll have extra crimp caps but those come in bags of 500 so who cares. Black tape, no. Y adapter, no. Ring terminals, no.

I'm baffled. :confused:

I think I'll have one of these remaining beers and try and figure this puzzle out.

This is why God made stereo installers.

I could not agree more. IMHO, a good installer is worth his/her weight in gold. You end up with an installation that works, looks good, and most importantly peace of mind that a good job was done. That's why I feel fortunate to have found Greg's shop and his crew. I checked out all of my local authorized Eclipse dealers, and I did not like what I saw. I also have the electromechanical skills to install it myself. But, I don't do this for a living, so I don't have most of the inside knowledge or experience to guarantee a good looking quality install. To me, the 600 mile round trip and the labor cost was a cheap investment for the peace of mind knowing that a good job was done.

Thank you, Larry. Your opinion means a lot to me. :)


Let's see. I might have some wire left over but that can't be it. I'll have extra crimp caps but those come in bags of 500 so who cares. Black tape, no. Y adapter, no. Ring terminals, no.

I'm baffled. :confused:

I think I'll have one of these remaining beers and try and figure this puzzle out.

:) You can have 3 of the remaining beers while you figure out the puzzle. :-D

This is why God made stereo installers. Any good shop should be able to do this easily. Maybe take in the URL of the instructions so that they can follow the links if they have trouble taking something out. My instructions will also give them wiring color codes. They'll need those.


What would you say would be a "fair" price (ie average price) I should expect to be quoted if I wanted someone to do this job for me? (parts and labor)


I know this is a pretty generic question... but just give me a ballpark figure.

I like to see pics of stereo installs in elements almost as much a I like to see my girlfriend nude. Should I post pics?

:D

Let's see, we've had pictures of nude Elements posted. And we've had pics of girlfriends. It's only a short step...

What would you say would be a "fair" price (ie average price) I should expect to be quoted if I wanted someone to do this job for me? (parts and labor)In my shop, it would be around $125. Now that is a small town price.

:D
In my shop, it would be around $125. Now that is a small town price.

I'm assuming that's not including the amp?

You assume correctly. This is a 2-3 hour job when done right plus the parts.

$125 isn't too bad.


Do you think a shop would be pissed if I brought my own amp in to be installed?



(BTW, thanks for all the answers)

Of course not. We install equipment we didn't sell all the time. Everybody does. About the only difference is we don't install other folks alarms or remote starts, and if your amp is bad under warranty, you have to pay for removal and reinstallation. If we sold it to you, we absorb the installation costs under warranty. Other shops make their own rules so check before you get it installed.

and if your amp is bad under warranty, you have to pay for removal and reinstallation. If we sold it to you, we absorb the installation costs under warranty.


I don't follow you on this one.... which amp? (the one I'm bringing in, or the factory amp?)

and if your amp is bad under warranty, you have to pay for removal and reinstallation. If we sold it to you, we absorb the installation costs under warranty. I don't follow you on this one.... which amp? (the one I'm bringing in, or the factory amp?)
If the amp you brought in is bad, you pay for removal and reinstallation under warranty.

If the amp we sold you is bad, we pay for removal and reinstallation under warranty.

Out of warranty, you pay no matter where the amp came from.

Aaaaaaaah.... thanks :D

Hey Gregg,
This sounds like a mod that I'd be interested in as I'm not looking to put a ton of cash into a new sub setup but would like to get some more bass to fill things out in the sound. The sub is not currently hooked up in my system & it would be nice to bring the extra bass back.......

You mention that this mod is even easier with an aftermarket deck. I have an Alpine HU with a sub preout. What needs to change from your instructions with an aftermarket HU?

My guess based on your instructions is that I wouldn't need to do all the RCA Y-cable splicing since I have RCA outs on the back of the deck. The splicing would be replaced by a direct RCA cable run from the HU to the amp. Wiring for the turn on power lead, speaker wires to the amp & amp power from the battery would all be as previously instructed.

Am I following you correctly or did I miss something else? Thanks!

kvilledrummer, you're not following me, you're leading! :D

You've got it 100%. The other advantage to using an aftermarket deck with this mod is the deck can power the four main speakers. The POS factory amp would be completely eliminated. It sounds like your system is already hooked up that way.

Give us a write-up when you do this mod. We can all learn from you. :)

Hey, maybe I'm finally getting the hang of this electrical stuff after all....:cool:

You are correct that my speakers are already powered by the HU at least in the back.......the JL seperates in the front are running off an MTX amp that has already taken up residence under the driver's seat. As you supposed, the factory amp in my system is now a useless doorstop (as though that's different from when it was hooked up.....:rolleyes:) This mod will have to go to the passenger side. Hopefully there's enough room in the existing firewall hole to squeeze another set of power wires without redrilling.

Now the fun part is to convince my wife that I need to spend yet more money on my new "economical" stereo upgrade since I don't have a spare amp laying around. Guess I need to get busy looking for a good amp deal......

I just finish the mikes mod and damn! got a sony xplod 250 watt 2/1 for like 40 bucks. hook it up after the stock amp, right behind the sub and place the amp under the driver side rear chair with wires going through the achor hole. I didn't like how much it sticks out behind the driver seat and this a small amp.
the amps is set high and the temble at 6, with bass at -6 and sub at 2. Nice clean bass and double what was stock.

Mike and sony outlet rules!!!!
super highly recommended

Very nice indepth instructions Gregg. Only problem I see is you have 3 important things left over based on your instructions... :shock:

Can you figure out what you have left over if you follow your instructions? :grin:


Thank you, Larry. Your opinion means a lot to me. :)


Let's see. I might have some wire left over but that can't be it. I'll have extra crimp caps but those come in bags of 500 so who cares. Black tape, no. Y adapter, no. Ring terminals, no.

I'm baffled. :confused:

I think I'll have one of these remaining beers and try and figure this puzzle out.

OK Greg it has been exactly two weeks for you to finish those beers and figure out Larry's puzzle. What are the three things left over? :?

Now the fun part is to convince my wife that I need to spend yet more money on my new "economical" stereo upgrade since I don't have a spare amp laying around. Guess I need to get busy looking for a good amp deal......

Got busy pretty quick & found a used Alpine MRV-T300 V12 series amp on ebay that looks to be in outstanding condition for $52 shipped (buy now...beg the wife for forgiveness later! - she doesn't understand the musician's stereo fetish, but she's learning to be tolerant....). Appears that it'll be a great fit under the passenger seat. Now I just need to get the other supplies & the time to put all this together. I'm really looking forward to hearing the difference with all the positive reviews!!!!

Hopefully, I'll be able to post some pics for those concerned about their suspect electrical ability when I'm done. Should be a pretty straightforward install, but we all had to start somewhere.....:roll:

it hits hard-i think im gonna try to blow the driver. do you think that if i go wit a single driver and bridge the am amp, there would be a problem wit the stock amp

hu>S.amp>AM.amp>Sub

rymo, besides the fact my San Francisco grandmother, may she rest in peace, would kill you for calling it "frisco" :D , I wouldn't bridge your amp. You would then hook the two voice coils of the stock sub up in parallel and your aftermarket amp would see a 1 ohm load. Amps don't like 1 ohm loads, no matter what the manufacturer might say. It would certainly run very hot and might well blow up. You're best to leave everythng in stereo. Cool running amps are good. :cool:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

kvilledrummer, you don't know the number of drummers I've hired as stereo salesmen. They always work out great. You'll be fine. If you run into difficulties, just ask them here or PM me. Guitar players, on the other hand...

< insert guitar player joke here >

Do you know how you make a guitarist play quieter?

Place sheet music in front of him.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Mike, what was that I was supposed to be counting? I've lost track...

:confused:

good to know...i didn't want to bypass the stock amp...because i am lazy and don't want to run wires to the passsenger side nor do i want to remove the deck and the sub was on a have to do basis any way. when the time comes i guess i'll just bypass it. here's a question...if i took a look at the stock amp, and snip the sub lead in and out then connected them...what color are the wires to each other?

i acquired a 100W two channel pos rampage (entry level company of audiovox, and audiovox is already pretty entry level) last night and plan on doing the install tomorrow. if i get a line out converter, can i avoid splicing into wires to run the RCA cable?

if i get a line out converter, can i avoid splicing into wires to run the RCA cable?
No, and why? A line out converter would come after the amp. You'd have to splice in there anyway. I guess you could hook it up at the end of the wires, at the speakers themselves, but you'd be running wires all over creation for no reason at all. Plus you'd be introducing a lot of extra noise into the system, amplifiying the signal up and then reducing it back down. You'd be much better off taking the signal out of the deck.

If you don't want to cut the factory harness, you could get the appropriate Metra adaptor (I'm sorry, I don't know the part number) that hooks up into the factory deck. It's not a 70-1721, which is the one for putting an aftermarket deck in a Honda car, but the opposite. It's used for hooking up a Honda radio in a different vehicle. It plugs into the deck, not the harness. It would give you a pigtail of wires coming out of the deck. You'd have to find new power, accessory and ground, but at least you wouldn't cut into the factory harness, and you'll already have power and ground for your amps. You only really have to find an accessory lead.

This plug might be a bit of a trouble to find but I know Metra makes it.

Hey 1mrdad I would really like to check out your system. I live in Plainfield near 55 and Weber. I've been thinking about upgrading and would like to hear how yours sounds and what the cost would be. I kinda want to keep my stock head unit for now but would love to upgrade the speakers plus add some power and maybe another sub. Let me know.

i dont know what i was thinking, i was running a ton of cables in my head and just got mixed up. i decided to go ahead and splice, it wont be horrible and its efficient

THE easiest way to hook up an amp, providing it is just for a subwoofer, is to splice right on to the wires for the subwoofer in the center console. (EX owners only) Take the sub cover off, just one plastic "button" on each side. Then take the four wires (red/black) and splice on a line-level converter ($25 @ Walmart) using the reds as positives and blacks as negatives. Then run RCA cables from that converter to your sub amp. This automatically crosses over the amp to run as just a sub amp AND is controllable by the stock radio using the subwoofer level adjustment. It is pretty easy and works great, mine sounds awesome using the stock radio.

^ cgillgolf, you've got it right in that this would be the easiest way to hook up either an aftermarket sub or to do Mike's Mod, but I'm not sure it's the best.

But first, let's go with your plan. I agree you have the least to remove and the easiest access to wires when you take out the factory sub. Everything is there in minutes. Easy is good. The wiring is a little different than you remember it. Here are the coloring codes:

subwoofer voice coil 1 positive - brown
subwoofer voice coil 1 negative - red
subwoofer voice coil 2 positive - blue
subwoofer voice coil 2 negative - grey with black stripe

As you said, in order to plug these wires into an amp, all you'd have to do is hook them up to a LOC (line output converter) to step the signal back down to line level and RCA plugs. With some entry level amps, even this step isn't necessary. Some basic amps have speaker level inputs, with the line output converter on board. Again, I like simple and this is simple. :)

The biggest advantage to your method is that you are happy with it. That is worth everything. :) :) :)

This plan does have some drawbacks as opposed to getting your sub output straight from the deck, the option I gave above in this thread

They all come from the fact that the factory amp is still in the circuit. As I have said before, I think it's a made of horse pitute. I hate it. Eliminating it will only make things better. For one, you are amplifying the signal and then dropping it back down again with the LOC. That will inevitably add more noise into the system. It also will not be as flat and neutral with this extra amplification but that difference might be small. It adds a level of electronic processing that taking the signal straight from the deck avoids, and as has been said, simple is better.

It's really not any harder to remove the deck from the car, accessing the wire harness. You snap off the trim ring around the deck and remove four screws. You do have to cut into the factory wire harness but this is not too hard. Probably the biggest advantage to your plan is that you don't have to get out the soldering iron and solder on RCA plugs. Me, I like to solder. Many people are intimidated by a soldering iron. Your method is more convenient but the difference is not great.

One last minor point, true in either scheme. I think the sub crossover built into the factory EX deck is a low pass only. I think the mains are running full range. I could be wrong. One of these days I'm going to bench the factory deck that's sitting on a shelf in my garage and check this out, along with a couple of other issues. One of these days...

Thank you for your contribution, cgillgolf.

here's some pics
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2086000-2086999/2086375_30_full.jpg
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2086000-2086999/2086375_33_full.jpg

A month or two ago i did this mod. Sounds great, Highly recommened. However, i think i pushed it a little two far. I was sending a pretty clean signal from my amp at 50rms to each coil, 100rms total. It was good for a while then boom, it blew. I thought it was my amp, but turns out it was my sub. After pulling out my sub and noticing the burnt smell, and verifying with Outpost, I realized i needed a new sub. So i replaced it with and Elemental Designs Eu-700. Sounds great. Do this mod, just be careful not to push it too much. I'm sure you could run 100rms, i guess i had the gains turned up a little high, i had them about half way.


-jp

Anyway, before the installation began, we discussed how to power all of the the speakers. We decided to drive the rear speakers with the head unit, the main speakers with the front channel of the PQ10, and the sub with rear channel of the PQ10 to give it some real amplification.

I've read through this thread several times.... I thought Mike's Mod was as described above, where the rear speakers stayed on the factory amp and the new amp drove the front speakers and the sub. But in reading through the instructions it only seems to deal with a stereo amp to the subwoofer and doesn't mention connecting the front speakers to the amp.

Now if this is correct, then to add the front speakers (to a 4 channel amp under the driver's seat, 2 to front and 2 to sub) then the L/R coming from the factory HU would go to the input on the amp, and the speaker out from the new amp would go to the front door (or to the crossover for the front door with components). So this could mean taking the L/R that was going to the stock amp, making them female RCA and running another RCA from here to the new amp. Then another run of speaker wire from the new amp to the door speakers. Have I got this straight in my mind??

Absolutely. That's it exactly. :)

I love this set-up. You can get a perfect 4 channel amp for this application that will still fit under one of the seats for $200. Add some new component door speakers for maybe $150-250 more and $50 for parts. For $400-500, you have an upgrade that will significantly improve the sound of a factory system. This is very reasonable, especially considering the magnitude of improvement.

I am so glad you are planning to do this I won't make the obvious jab of pretty good thinking on your part for somebody who is continuously light headed from playing the trombone. No, I won't even go there. :D

I took the plunge and ordered the following components:

-Alpine IVA-W200 DVD/CD/MP3 Player W/6.5" LCD
-Alpine Type-S SPS171A 6-1/2"/6-3/4" 2-way Component System
-Alpine Type-R SPR-17LP 6-1/2"/6-3/4" 2-way Speakers
-PAC SWI-ALP - Alpine Steering Wheel Radio Control Interface
-Alpine KCE-422i iPod Control Interface Cable - 2006-up

I have been reading all the post for the last few days and have a few questions:

I am going to a local shop install my system, but I want to have a good idea of what needs to be done, as I am new to this area and don’t really know anyone who can recommend a good shop. Basically, I am hoping for the best, and because I am very picky, I want a "great job" even if it cost me a little more. I want to tell them exactly what I want, so there is no confusion, so I apoligize in advance for my first, and newbie post.

I have an alpine 4 channel amp that puts out aprox. 40 watts RMS from my old setup with built in crossover and speaker leaver inputs cost me $400.00 about 4 years ago, that after reading the post I have decided to use.

This is the setup I am thinking of doing:

-remove factory head unit (Obviously)
-Bypass factory amp
-wire the front two channels and the subwoofer to the alpine amp
-wire 2 rear channels to the new alpine head unit

Questions:
-Will I need completely new speaker wire run to the individual speakers? Or is it easier to splice the wires at the amp? (Installer point of view)
-Will I need to run new wires to the tweeters? ( front speakers are components)
- Will I have control of all my channels? ( left/right/ rear/front fading)?
-Keeping the Aux in, should I print the instructions posted on this forum, or is that pretty common thing for an installer?
-It’s a double din install, has anyone installed this alpine unit before successfully?


Opps.. Mike's mod

Nice purchase of the equipment, Gargola. All good stuff. Plus, welcome to the club. You've also found the best forum here first. What excellent taste you have! :) My name is Gregg and I'm the Mobile Electronics mod.

I'm going to answer your questions in two parts. One, I'll give you specific answers to your questions. Then I'm going to follow with some more generic comments. There are two other posters that I know about that are right now doing versions of Mike's Mod. I promised one of them I'd write up some detailed instructions for his installer. I'm going to do that here. Your timing is excellent. :)

One thing that would have helped me is to know what year E you have. Please fill out your profile. I will make these instructions generic. Since you bought the PAC steering wheel adapter, I'll assume you have a 2006. The only other real change affecting this install is the antenna change in 2005 and beyond. You'll need an antenna adapter, detailed below.

Questions:
-Will I need completely new speaker wire run to the individual speakers? Or is it easier to splice the wires at the amp? (Installer point of view)
Your installer will love you for that last remark. Lunatics like me run all new speaker wires. You probably don't need to. That said, the easiest place to intercept the factory wires is down by the factory amp, which is behind the passenger's kick panel. You'll want to cut off the wire harness that comes out of the factory amp. Here is the reference thread (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10869) on this issue. Reduced to what you need, you want to attach the speaker wires coming out from your new deck and amp to these wires:

front left + = green/black stripe
front left - = green
front right + = green/yellow stripe
front right - = blue/yellow stripe
rear left + = blue/white stripe
rear left - = blue/black stripe
rear right + = pink
rear right - = blue/yellow stripe
subwoofer voice coil 1 + = brown
subwoofer voice coil 1 - = red
subwoofer voice coil 2 + = blue
subwoofer voice coil 2 - = grey/black stripe

All of these wires are on the large white plug attached to the factory amp. I have made the assumption here that the rear speakers will be run off of deck power. Anything you can do to get rid of the factory amp is a good move in my book.


-Will I need to run new wires to the tweeters? ( front speakers are components) This depends on where you put the TypeR tweets.

If you decide to put them in the A pillars, replacing the factory tweets, then yes, you should run new wires. It is a piece of cake. Your installer can easily snake new wires from the A pillars down through the dash without removing any other panels.

Because of my experience in my own car, I have been recommending to people that they mount the component tweeters in the doors, directly above the woofers. The system images better this way. I also find the TypeR tweeters very bright (most car tweeters are) and this mounting attenuates the highs.

Here is what this looks like in my car:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/newfronttweeterrightsm.jpg

If you did this, then you just use the wiring hook up codes above. The factory wire will already run into the door. Bury the component crossovers in the doors - there's plenty of room - and you're set to go.

What then do you do with the factory tweeters in the A pillars? What Mike did was hook them up but attenuate them down. My car is also set up this way, abet with aftermarket tweeters in the A pillars. These second tweeters will add a little sparkle to the sound and raise the image up. They will also compensate for people's thighs blocking the door tweeters, improving the sound.

You don't need to run any new wires to do this. You do need to have your installer hook up a basic attenuation circuit to the factory tweeters to knock down their output. 6 dB of attenuation seems to be right (again, I got this figure from Mike). It is certainly a good place to start.

There is plenty of room behind the A pillars to add some 10 watt wire wound resistors you can buy at Radio Shack. Here is the circuit:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/attenuation.jpg

For 6dB of attenuation, you want R1 = 2 ohms and R2 = 4 ohms. You can get 1 ohm and 4 ohm ten watt wire wound resistors at most Radio Shacks. Use two 1 ohm resistors in series to make a 2 ohm resistor. There is a capacitor already on the factory tweeter. Leave this in the circuit for protection. These resistors can go into the wiring either before or after the cap; it makes no difference.

If you want more info on tweeter attenuation, this is the thread (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19585).


- Will I have control of all my channels? ( left/right/ rear/front fading)? Assuming you run the rear speakers off of deck power, yes. You will also be able to control the subwoofer level from your deck.


-Keeping the Aux in, should I print the instructions posted on this forum, or is that pretty common thing for an installer?
It's straight forward but these are the wires he's going to want to intercept. They are on their own 6 connector plug going into the factory deck.

aux left + = white
aux right + = brown
aux shield - = green

There are two other wires on this plug, yellow and blue ones. Have your installer ignore these. They are for auto sensing with the factory deck when something is plugged into the aux jack. You'll lose this feature on your Alpine deck.


-It’s a double din install, has anyone installed this alpine unit before successfully? Not to my knowledge. It is relatively new. Many double DIN decks have been installed, though, and it is a straight forward install.

There are two concerns with a double DIN install in an Element. One, the deck will come out c0ckeyed. Here is the deck in my car. Do you see how it is tilted?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/06-headunitsm.jpg

By either bending the factory ISO mount brackets (You remove the brackets off of the factory deck and use them to mount the aftermarket piece. This mounting hole scheme is called ISO mount.) or by using spacers, you can flatten out this mount.

The other issue is that the factory bezel hole is a little larger than the nose piece on an aftermarket DIN deck. I have recommended in the past the Metra kit 99-9999 to make a spacer ring to fill this in. Your installer may have a better solution. This is a place where creativity is a plus and might cost you an extra $50 - 100 installation dollars, but a nicely fiberglassed extension on the factory trim ring can make all of the difference. Here is hondaguru's E. He solved the problem very nicely. There are also other threads out there giving more solutions.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/P5120026.jpg


Some other things you may want to consider:

- Make sure your installer hooks up the power antenna lead from the deck. The Honda antenna is powered and without this lead hooked up, your reception will be awful. For a 2003 or 2004 E, then the lead is off of the standard Metra 70-1721 harness. If it is a 2005 on up, you'll also need an antenna adapter, Metra 40-HD10 (http://www.installer-data.com/item/display_item.php?it=40-hd10), and the power antenna wire is on this piece. Your 2006 will need this adapter.

- Here are the color codes for the steering wheel remote control:

radio remote switch + = green/red stripe
radio remote switch - = brown

These are on the main plug that feeds the factory radio and I doubt will be found on the Metra 70-1721 harness the installer will use to adapt to the factory wiring. He'll have to intercept them.

- With 40 watts per channel, you might blow your factory subwoofer. You might also not. Many more speakers are blown because of too little power than too much. If you do, the Elemental Designs Eu-700 (http://edesignaudio.com/product.php?cid=15&pid=32&cur=USD) driver recommended up thread is an excellent drop in solution. It's $65 shipped. You'd want to do the hook-up a little differently then. Get the dual 2 ohm version. Hook up the speaker's voice coils in series to give you a 4 ohm total load. Take the two channels of your Alpine amp you're using to drive the sub and bridge them to mono (Mike's Mod when running the factory woofer keeps these in stereo). It will see the woofer's 4 ohm load as 2 ohms, putting out the maximum amount of power. It's the best of all worlds.

- You may want to turn your installer onto the Hidden Antenna Trick (patent pending :D ) if you ever decide to add either satellite radio or navigation. Alpine's nav piece works slickly with your new deck, as does either XM or Sirius satellite rado. Here are James' (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19971) and Larry's (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20040) posts on this, including many pics. This is also not a bad mod for you to do ahead of taking your car into the installer. It's easy and will give you great satisfaction.

Post pictures of your install when it is done. We love pictures.

Outpost,

You are awesome. I printed out the thread and going to take it to a few installers in the area today to get an idea on when they can perform the install.

I already called a few, and none have performed any work on a Element, the closest one to me turned me down because there are no kits for a double din install for the element. :rolleyes:

As far as blowing out the sub, the amp has independent gains for the front and rears channels, I will inform the installer to leave one pair minimized, and use that one for the sub. Regardless, $65.00 is very cheap for a replacement, considering what I just spent on all my other components.


I have the '06 antenna adapter, speaker adapters, and head unit adapter. I have also printed out about 20 pages of misc disassembly instructions and diagrams from this site. If I come across an installer who wants to take on this project, they will be very will informed thanks to this site.

And yes, you were correct regarding the rear speakers going to my head unit.

Again thank you for the information and quick response.

My specs:

2006 Honda element Ex-p tango red pearl (Auto. AWD)
-Fog lights, and sidesteps (Factory installed)
-Alpine freak (First stereo was a alpine, and have stuck to them ever since)
-IPOD freak (Alpine/IPOD, match made in heaven)
-Bought the element March 29, 2006 (XM is expiring, thus the move back to my IPOD)
-8000 miles on my "E" received it with 4 miles, right off the truck

Other cars in the garage:
1998 Honda Accord V6 EX Auto ( Alpine Head unit with I cruze Ipod adapter) (
2004 Toyota corolla S 5 speed (Alpine head unit with First generation Alpine IPOD interface)

You're welcome. It was fortunate that I had to cover much of that same ground for somebody else. It worked out for both of you. :)

Here (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20951) is a great thread about the Elemental Designs Eu-700 sub.

Well I visited a few installers today, and I must say I am not impressed. They all insisited on a kit, and those ones that didn't told me that it might not look all that great but they would install it ( Not exactly motivating).

I got quoted $325, for the following:
-amp install (comonets and factory woofer installed to it)
-running "quick wire" from the head unit to the factory amp to patch into the speaker wires there
-installing my componets in their exisiting place
-installing rear speakers and hooking them up the headunit
-installing my steering wheel control PAC module, supplied by me
-installing head unit
-installing parking brake module, supplied by me

I am providing everything else ( Including all the speaker harness adapters, head unit adapter, and the antenna adapter.

To be honest, I wasn't really impressed with any of them, and just my take the plunge and try it myself,as I know I will take for ever to do it, but the job will get done right, eventually. :) . I see how I feel tomorrow when I wake up.

Roberto

Understood, Roberto. This is not the toughest install out there and we all would be glad to help walk you though it. By "we all" I mean everyone here, right, gang? :)

I do know a poster is working on the ultimate "Mike's Mod" instructions right now. Probably the toughest part of this install would be the parking brake interlock for the video and the door speakers. The parking brake is just tough because you have to find the wires although that has been done already and posted about. The door woofers are deep and would require you to at least cut out the water shield and probably make a spacer ring. Neither is really hard. Larry has a thread out there on making the spacer ring and the cutting out the water shield is just a good excuse to buy a Dremel.

Do you have the tools and the space? Those would be the big things.

$325 is reasonable for the install. It would be a day job. We charge $300 a day.

As for needing a kit, they are just doing it by the book as they haven't ever seen an Element. At this point you know more about the car than they do. You know that it doesn't need a kit, beyond solving the front bezel problem.

The one good thing about having somebody else do the install is that it isn't the toughest job in the world. Talk to the installer that will do the work directly, not his boss. Tell him EXACTLY what you want done. Go over the car, step by step. Take off a couple of times during the day from work to drop by the shop and check up on him. Beyond that, this job just needs a competent installer. The only artistry involved is in the deck bezel, and even that should be a straight forward job for an experienced installer.

Outpost,

I far as tools..., I have more tools than I will every use, I am a Field technician for robotics company and they keep me well stocked.

-Dremel -Check ( I have 2, My personal one, and the one for my work)

I have done all my stereo installs before, but I have never installed components, a double din head unit, or integrated factory parts.( The fit is what worries me.)

I have a strong electro-mechanical background, but nothing related to audio. I am not a stranger to a voltmeter and solder gun, but from experience, I know that knowing the little "tricks" that you gather everyday while doing your job is what usually makes a difference between a "ok" job and a “great” one.



I walked the installer through everything I wanted, he didn’t even want to look at the instruction I brought with me, and with some comments that they made in Spanish to the other installer, thinking I didn’t understand them, well, wasn’t to motivating to me. (Spanish is my primary language but I don’t look it)

I am going to out side and take a look, I might start it myself.

Given all this, do your own install, Roberto. :)

So let's suppose that I've got my tweeters mounted in the door panel near the mid-woofer. I'd like to add the factory tweeters where they currently are, as has been suggested here. I could also add some attenuation -- also discussed earlier.

Is 1mrdad around?? Are there any pictures of how you did this?

If I cut the current front wires running to the factory amp and direct that signal to my new amp (to be added soon, I hope) then what choice do I have for connecting these factory tweeters? I assume the splice from the HU going to the new amp under the seat will make all the factory wiring to the doors and tweeter.

It's easy to run wire to these A pillar tweeters, but where do they now connect? What attenuation (if any) have people used??

In helping trombe with his install through a series of PMs, I ended up creating this sketch of the wiring recommended here. It is a down and dirty electronic sketch. Only one channel is shown. There are no separate positive and negative wires. The subwoofer and its power, the essence of Mike's Mod, isn't shown here. The attenuator for the factory tweeters are not included. The emphasis here is to show how the wires for the component speakers and the factory tweeters are run.

This may help somebody else trying this mod.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/trombewiring.jpg

I just wanted to update everyone on my progress.

Headunit and amp are both installed and funtional. I have plenty of pics, and will post as soon as I get a break from work and finish the job.

Only obstacle so far is getting the double din unit to fit "cleanly" and getting my PAC steering wheel control unit to work.

Everything else was stragiht forward with Outpost's help, and other Misc. post from the forum.

I still have to install all my componets and rear speakers, hopefully later today.

Just a side note, removing the Driver's seat does make the process easier.

Roberto

Outstanding. Let us know how we can help. You will see a post from me in my E-xtraordinary Car Stereo Install thread about getting my deck to look good.

\

Only obstacle so far is getting the double din unit to fit "cleanly" and getting my PAC steering wheel control unit to work.

Roberto

You might want to look into the radio bezel for the LX model, It looks like it will compensate for the angle of the deck better than the one for the EX. It has a line across the bottom if you notice in the pic (part #8).

I finally got some time last night after work to work on the install, I am 'happy' with what I was able to do with a single din kit, I dremeled it and turned it to double din face plate. My only complaint is that the head unit doesn't sit flush.

I will post some pics soon.

Pending:
-lousy sounding speakers
-very little bass coming from subwoofer
-front speaker still sounds, even with the radio faded towards the rear ( The rear speakers are connected to the headunit, front and sub to the amp)

I have to check my wiring, as my front left speaker still sounds, even with the system faded towards the rear, and they sound crappy.

I might have used the wrong diagram to tap into the speaker wires, as I know there were some issues with the diagram originally posted.

Roberto

I'm going to update sier's post right now, Roberto. The wiring diagram will be correct.

You should have bass, too. Lots of it. Make sure you don't have the two voice coils of the woofer out of phase with each other. They would then tend to cancel and give you no bass.

Follow-up

Pending:
-lousy sounding speakers ( Still have some noise in the rear speakers, kinda stumped on this one, since they are wired directly into the head unit. Tomorrow I gonna try soldering the connection at the amp to see if that helps. I already soldered the connection at the headunit the first time. )
-very little bass coming from subwoofer. ( Speakers are out of phase with the rest of the system)
-front speaker still sounds, even with the radio faded towards the rear ( The rear speakers are connected to the headunit, front and sub to the amp) Unable to resolve this, all wiring checked, believe the headunit doesn't completly fade.

I also had to buy a new 4 channel amp, due to my amp cutting off at volume level 15, with the componets connected. :evil:


Roberto

I'm most concerned about problem #2. I don't understand that. You do have the gains cranked up on the amp you installed, right? The factory deck puts out only about a volt. Once you Y that, it will take that down to half a volt but that should be still be sufficient to drive an amp, at least to a louder level than you are experiencing.

If the problem is a lack of gain, audio guru David Navone makes a box for $33.50 that would solve the problem. link (http://www.davidnavone.com/linedrivers.htm) You'd want the N-64.

You did check that voice coils #1 and #2 are in phase with each other, right? If they were out of phase with each other, that could cause your problem. I have found the factory sub needs to be out of phase with mains, all other things being equal, which they almost never are. :-D

Yes, the factory speakers are stinky. I don't know about fading and the factory head unit. Maybe somebody else does.

In helping trombe with his install through a series of PMs, I ended up creating this sketch of the wiring recommended here. It is a down and dirty electronic sketch. Only one channel is shown. There are no separate positive and negative wires. The subwoofer and its power, the essence of Mike's Mod, isn't shown here. The attenuator for the factory tweeters are not included. The emphasis here is to show how the wires for the component speakers and the factory tweeters are run.

This may help somebody else trying this mod.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/trombewiring.jpg
My set up is different:
Aftermarket deck>factory amp>factory Sub.
Aftermarket Deck>after market, amp(4 channels)/components speakers(front and back)

I will post some pic's...

Okay, I have a question about this set-up. I know that there is a disdain for the factory amp but how bad would it be to use the stock amp to power the stock woofer with all 4 channels of power? say for example I use an aftermarket HU to power all the door speakers front and rear then use the sub outs to give a split signal to the factory amp then run the front 2 channels bridged to 1 voicecoil then the rears bridged to the other voicecoil? Dunno the fine print and logistics of this all but I would assume that I would get 2 ohms at each voicecoil and roughly be getting bout 70RMS@2 ohms X 2?
Granted it wouldn't be the cleanest signal for a sub but it would be getting just low frequencies and I figure the stock speaker isn't the best quality anyway so would it make a whole lotta difference musically?
IF it could work it would be a damn cheap alternative for getting more base in the E

I use 2-way speakers in the front doors and sub, and I`m happy!!!
rear speakers in most cases are dificult to install, because there are different distances between speakers and your head. so the inly one you hear is cacophony. good front and sub to "boom" is enough.

my uneconomical Alpine system (HU)Ida X100- (Processor)PXA H100- (Amp) PDX 5- (Speakers) SPR 17- (Sub) SWR 1221

Okay, I have a question about this set-up. I know that there is a disdain for the factory amp but how bad would it be to use the stock amp to power the stock woofer with all 4 channels of power? say for example I use an aftermarket HU to power all the door speakers front and rear then use the sub outs to give a split signal to the factory amp then run the front 2 channels bridged to 1 voicecoil then the rears bridged to the other voicecoil? Dunno the fine print and logistics of this all but I would assume that I would get 2 ohms at each voicecoil and roughly be getting bout 70RMS@2 ohms X 2?
Granted it wouldn't be the cleanest signal for a sub but it would be getting just low frequencies and I figure the stock speaker isn't the best quality anyway so would it make a whole lotta difference musically?
IF it could work it would be a damn cheap alternative for getting more base in the E

you cant do it. the amp is not configurable in that its channels cant be bridged like an aftermarket amp. there is a little amp chip for the 4 channels in it, similar to a headunit's, and the rest of it is for the sub already. if you want more out of it then get a decent amp and either replace the factory sub with something like the kicker or infinity, or leave it and put one in the back or someting like i did between the front and rear seats where nobody can sit anyway.

thanks Yoda, I was hoping to be on the cheap with this idea but no dice. thanks again