VTEC problem: Code P2646 (also 2647, 2648, 2649) [Archive] - Honda Element Owners Club Forum

: VTEC problem: Code P2646 (also 2647, 2648, 2649)


BriBoy01
04-17-2006, 06:06 PM
Well my dear EOC friends I have had my first problem with my Element after 96,000 miles. While driving down the road the other day my malfunction indicator lamp came on. I instantly thought it was my gas cap so I removed and reinstalled it and took off again but I started cutting out and losing power. I instantly thought it was an 02 sensor, plugs, wires, or cat. convert. so I took it in to Autozone this morning to have the code pulled and got [PO2646 Rocker Arm off or stuck] code. I have never heard of such a code so I took it in to my dealership for them to hook it up and see what they find. I was wondering if anyone else has heard of this code or has any clue what could be the possible cause. Ill keep you updated.

lizzurd
04-20-2006, 05:24 PM
Well my dear EOC friends I have had my first problem with my Element after 96,000 miles. While driving down the road the other day my malfunction indicator lamp came on. I instantly thought it was my gas cap so I removed and reinstalled it and took off again but I started cutting out and losing power. I instantly thought it was an 02 sensor, plugs, wires, or cat. convert. so I took it in to Autozone this morning to have the code pulled and got [PO2646 Rocker Arm off or stuck] code. I have never heard of such a code so I took it in to my dealership for them to hook it up and see what they find. I was wondering if anyone else has heard of this code or has any clue what could be the possible cause. Ill keep you updated.


According to the service manual code 2646 is for rocker arm switch (VTEC oil pressure switch) low voltage.

ozonetourist
10-17-2006, 08:42 PM
I have the ussual problem of the Element bogging down at 4,000 rpm's. I took it to my dealer and the code is the "V-tech pressure switch" They told me it was $65.00 for the switch and $210.00 to install it.Is this the same as the oil pressure switch? Where is this switch located and How much does this switch truley cost. I do need to get this done, but I do not want to be ripped off. They want about $80.00 per hour.

I bought my element brand new in 2003 and now have 76,000 miles on it. Any input would be appreciated.

angiepolk
12-05-2006, 04:13 PM
I've had the same problem and they said the code showed that it was the vtec sensor, so they replaced the switch/sensor. Did the same thing after the replacement, so they said it was the fuel pump, replaced that. Still doing the same thing. Now they say it may just be a bad connection or cylanoid.....hit and miss sure hurts the pocket book. Of course min's out of warranty :(

dbinkowski
02-07-2007, 05:45 PM
I had my Element in the dealership twice in early December to have the V-tec control switch replaced and then the next piece up the food chain as well. Well, today the same problem happened - at 60 mph on the freeway, accelerated and lost power. This is the third time in < 2 months, anyone else having similar problems? My E is around 70k miles. Regular maintenance, oil changes, etc, so I'm trying to figure out if it's a bigger issue (i.e. lemon) than just dirt causing the clogged screens (at least that's how they explained the cause to me last time).

ramblerdan
02-07-2007, 07:24 PM
The service manual recommends changing engine oil and filter at the same time as the VTC strainer or VTEC solenoid valve screen to prevent further contamination.

dbinkowski
02-08-2007, 09:50 AM
They said a clogged screen caused components to fail?

Did they say the VTC strainer or the VTEC Solenoid Valve filter was clogged? In either case, the manual recommends changing the engine oil and filter at the same time to prevent further contamination. The VTC Oil Control Solenoid Valve also appears to have screens that could clog.

what do you know, i changed the oil and filter last night and it's fine. took it on the highway to try and recreate the problem and nothing. took my son to school this morning and the engine light was off. thanks!

tfsabre
03-15-2007, 04:36 AM
I didnt have this problem till I hit a deer and had the vehicle fixed and they said the Vtec sensor had a recall and they replaced it for nothing since its a recalled part. Now year and half later getting the same problem and they replaced the sensor again saying the oil needed to be changed which I had changed 3 weeks prior to the problem showing up. The Honda dealer said the screen was cloged and they cleaned it and said to change the oil again which I did. IT STILL HESITATES AT 3000 RPM after all this!! But I noticed it doesnt do the hesitation until after it is heated up from driving for about 5 minutes. Wish there was some way to bypass that sensor totally and get rid of it!!

ramblerdan
03-15-2007, 09:53 AM
http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/vtec01.gif (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/engine/e__1010~2004~honda~element~5dr_ex_4wd_sd_a_1_b~5mt ~ka~vtc~oil~control~valve.html)


http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/vtec02.gif (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/engine/e__1010~2004~honda~element~5dr_ex_4wd_sd_a_1_b~5mt ~ka~vtc~oil~control~valve.html)


http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/RockerArm_OIL.jpg (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/engine/e__1010~2004~honda~element~5dr_ex_4wd_sd_a_1_b~5mt ~ka~vtc~oil~control~valve.html)


Parts lists at Hondapartsnow (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/engine/e__1010~2004~honda~element~5dr_ex_4wd_sd_a_1_b~5mt ~ka~vtc~oil~control~valve.html)

MacGyver
11-06-2007, 02:41 PM
2003 Element E, 57,000 Miles, auto trans, I just bought 125 miles ago and the check engine light is haunting me already! I thought I got it fixed with a gas cap but no such luck! :mad: I ran an OBD II and got several codes. I hope somebody can pinpoint the problem. I'm guessing coil packs but it's just a guess based on nothing but gut feeling and no experience. The codes are as follows:

P2647: Bank 1 Stuck on Actuator A

P0301: Cylinder 1 Misfire Detected

P0302: Cylinder 2 Misfire Detected

P0303: Cylinder 3 Misfire Detected

P0300: Random Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected

Honda Tech
11-06-2007, 02:55 PM
The P2647 is a VTEC pressure switch high voltage DTC. It may be as simple as needing to replace the switch (P/N 37250-PNE-G01).

The switch is the part indicated as #12. You'll need a deep 22mm thin wall (non-impact) socket to replace it. You should replace the o-ring with the new switch (#15)

Make sure you check your oil level ASAP as some VTEC DTCs are set due to a loss of oil pressure due to low oil levels.

The misfire DTC's can be disregarded until the VTEC system is operating correctly.

MacGyver
11-09-2007, 05:48 PM
Well, I took it back to the dealer where I bought it and they told me it was the oil pressure switch. They replaced it and sent me on my way. Check engine light came on again within 8 miles! :-x I'm going camping this weekend so I'll check and post the new codes this coming Monday.

Honda Tech
11-09-2007, 06:08 PM
Well, I took it back to the dealer where I bought it and they told me it was the oil pressure switch. They replaced it and sent me on my way. Check engine light came on again within 8 miles! :-x I'm going camping this weekend so I'll check and post the new codes this coming Monday.


The dealer where you bought it? A non-Honda dealer, right?

I hope that they replaced the correct pressure switch.

Did you verify your engine oil level? If your fault is NOT due to a faulty pressure switch, or an electrical circuit fault to or within the PCM, then it is either a bad VTEC control solenoid, sludge clogging the oil circuit OR low oil pressure / oil starvation.

Good luck!

JD

MacGyver
11-10-2007, 11:13 AM
IT IS ALREADY BROKEN DOWN AGAIN!!!

The dealer where you bought it? A non-Honda dealer, right?

Correct, it was a VW dealer that I have been dealing with for several years and trusted.

I hope that they replaced the correct pressure switch.

Did you verify your engine oil level? If your fault is NOT due to a faulty pressure switch, or an electrical circuit fault to or within the PCM, then it is either a bad VTEC control solenoid, sludge clogging the oil circuit OR low oil pressure / oil starvation.

I am not sure which switch they replaced but the check engine light came on within 8 miles of picking the car up after the work and the engine started cutting out within 10 miles. It won't go over 2,000 RPM without cutting out. When I step on the gas pedal it just bogs and gets nothing until I let off the gas pedal. The oil level is good. Which switch should have been replaced? The mechanic is out of town until next Wednesday so I'm without a car again. :-x

Honda Tech
11-11-2007, 08:53 AM
IT IS ALREADY BROKEN DOWN AGAIN!!!



Correct, it was a VW dealer that I have been dealing with for several years and trusted.



I am not sure which switch they replaced but the check engine light came on within 8 miles of picking the car up after the work and the engine started cutting out within 10 miles. It won't go over 2,000 RPM without cutting out. When I step on the gas pedal it just bogs and gets nothing until I let off the gas pedal. The oil level is good. Which switch should have been replaced? The mechanic is out of town until next Wednesday so I'm without a car again. :-x


The part number on your invoice should be the part number I listed in post #11.

I do not disparage the abilities of a technician that you trust. Unless he has the correct service information available to him, and a scan tool that will allow him to view the operating parameters, it can be difficult to perform a correct diagnosis and repair.

This may help:

The VTEC system increases the amount of intake valve lift for increased power. It accomplishes this by turning a control solenoid 'ON' to allow oil pressure into the VTEC control passages to apply pins that will lock the intake rockers. When the oil pressure is present, the pressure switch signal will go high. When the control solenoid is turned 'OFF', the oil pressure is dumped and the oil pressure switch signal will go low.

simply stated, normal system operation to the PCM would look like: Solenoid 'ON' = pressure switch 'OFF'
Solenoid 'OFF' = pressure switch 'ON'

If the pressure switch signal is not logical for the commanded state of the control solenoid, a DTC will set and the PCM will go into a 'fuel-cut' mode limiting engine rpm and performance. The PCM simply doesn't 'know' what the state of the intake valves are, so you end up with the symptoms you describe.

Clearing the DTC, disconnecting the VTEC oil pressure switch and using a jumper wire to short the signal wire to ground and keeping your RPM below 2700 when driving would prevent VTEC from engaging and you could operate your vehicle. This ASSUMES that you actually do have engine oil pressure to keep from grenading your engine. I assume that you have not had issues with the red oil pressure light in the IP flickering or staying 'ON'? Your particular DTC would not be caused by a low oil pressure issue, but I prefer to be very cautious in this area, since I am not seeing the vehicle first hand and have to rely entirely on 2nd/3rd party information.

The most common VTEC issues we see are, in order of frequency: very low engine oil levels that result in starvation under hard accelleration, faulty VTEC oil pressure switches, faulty VTEC oil control solenoids, sludged / clogged oil passages in the VTEC oil control circuit, wiring harness / connector terminal damage, bad PCM.

The description of pressure switch operation may seem confusing, so compare it to how the regular oil pressure warning lamp works. When you have the ignition 'ON' and the engine is not running, there is no oil pressure. The oil pressure switch is spring-loaded closed (ON) providing a path to ground and the warning lamp stays illuminated. If this was a feedback circuit to the control module, the module would see a 'LOW' voltage because the voltage is being dropped to ground.

When you start the engine, engine oil pressure overcomes the spring tension in the switch, causing it to open (OFF). This removes the path to ground, current cannot flow and the warning lamp goes 'OFF.' A feedback circuit to a control module would see a 'HIGH' voltage potential because the circuit is 'open' - no continuity to ground.

Your 'HIGH VOLTAGE' DTC means that the VTEC oil pressure feedback circuit is staying electrically 'OPEN' all the time. Either the switch is bad, the wiring is broken somewhere, or the control solenoid is leaking oil pressure into the VTEC circuit when it is supposed to be 'OFF' or the PCM is FUBAR.

Honda Tech
11-11-2007, 11:03 AM
If the fault is not due to either a bad pressure switch or a wiring harness problem, then the PCM is either sensing high voltage on the oil pressure switch feedback circuit because there actually is oil under pressure within the VTEC hydraulic control circuit when there should not be any pressure, or the PCM is internally faulty causing it to incorrectly sense high voltage.

Oil pressure in the VTEC hydraulic circuit is verified to the PCM by high voltage on the VTEC oil pressure switch feedback circuit. An open circuit (unplugged sensor, broken wire, open contacts within the pressure switch) or a feedback circuit shorted to another voltage source, results in high voltage on this circuit.

It is actually pretty rare IMO for a Honda PCM to 'go bad' on it's own. Most often the fault will be found elsewhere.

This really is a pretty simple circuit in the way it operates, and shouldn't be difficult to diagnose with a scan tool that can read Honda specific data parameters. Most non-Honda repair facilities will have scan tool capabilities to view the SAE mandated generic parameters, which would not include the VTEC system data parameters, so it will be a little more involved to diagnose.

Honda Tech
08-01-2008, 06:15 PM
Open the hood, lean over where the power steering hose is attached to the cylinder head cover with a bracket and look straight down the back of the engine. The VTEC solenoid and pressure switch are mounted just above the oil filter. Use a deep, thin-walled 22mm socket. Good idea to replace the o-ring for the switch at the same time. (new o-ring is not included with Honda switch)

happyjack
12-28-2008, 02:30 AM
On Christmas day my son was driving his 2005 Honda Element up a mountain road when the MIL came on. At first I thought he might have a transmission problem but after checking everything seemed fine. The engine would not rev over 2500 RPM. I scanned for codes and it came up P2646. I replaced the VTEC Oil Pressure Switch, cleared the codes and took the car for a test drive. After driving about one mile, the MIL came back on. The same code, P2646 came back.

I called a friend who happens to specialize in Hondas and he suggested that I clean the screen that is located in the same housing as the VTEC Oil Pressure Switch and Solenoid. The screen is designed to stop debris from getting into the Solenoid and VTEC Oil Pressure Switch. Upon removing the screen, I found it to be very dirty. I cleaned it with Brake Cleaner and Compressed Air and the car is running great now.

It is extremely important to keep the oil and filter changed regularly. I hope this helps anyone else who encounters this problem.

CaptMike
01-04-2009, 08:00 PM
I just searched for the same Code on my newly acquired 2005 Element. (Since I am a 30+ mechanic) I'll give you my opinion of what's wrong. After reading about 10 posts on the same problem, I'm going to say it's your it's the Valve Timing Solenoid (located on the passenger side above or oil filter enclosed in a L shaped heatshield thing with two electrical plugs on top). Clean the solenoid and filter, reset the CEL and try it again. Some people have replaced the Vtech Oil Pressure Switch and still had the Code but it went away after cleaning the filter/strainer. I'm going to change the oil and filter and clean the pressure switch filter. The part is the same on most all Vtech engines. One of the web Honda dealers sell the part for $41.00.
37250-PNE-G01 SWITCH ASSY., VALVE TIMING OILPRESSURE ( No Color) 55.17 41.38

I've also seen a Moderator that said if the Battery Voltage is low that it can throw some funny codes.

Capt. Mike

shingles
01-09-2009, 09:14 AM
I believe this code can be thrown when the ECU is trying to engage VTEC, but the solenoid does not respond... this can be caused by bad solenoid, or low oil pressure.

Just to confirm, did you say that you did an oil change and the light went away? If so, I am wondering if perhaps your oil level was low prior to the change, thus causing an low pressure situation.

bridgetts
05-20-2009, 02:24 PM
Hi, It is on the back of the cylinder head on the passenger side. If you look down where the power steering hose bracket is mounted on the valve cover you will see the spool valve assembly with 2 connectors surrounded by a heat shield. It is attached to the head by 3 M6 bolts. I personaly would change the whole assembly which includes the valve,oil pressure switch,heat shield and gasket/screen. 1st honda Parts and Honda Parts Cheap charge $77 for the whole assembly and $40 for just the oil switch. I don't see any problem in changing this part......Just clean mounting area,place gasket/screen in place,make sure you don't cross thread the 3 bolts and torque to 7.2 lbf.ft

Honda Box
12-10-2009, 07:25 PM
Well i have the p2646 code and my car won't rev past 3000rpm. I bought a new vtec oil pressure switch for $72 and it didn't fix the problem :-(

I'm assuming i should try cleaning out the screen that is before the switch but i'm not exactly sure how to get to the screen. Can someone point me in the right direction? Is it possible that the screen is blocked or would this be a waste of time?

I know this is a common problem and there are many threads about this but i rarely read about how the problem was ultimately corrected.


Thanks for any help
Steve

Honda Box
12-15-2009, 06:35 PM
Just wanted to let anyone who reads this thread know how i fixed the problem.


I did an oil change.



I went to the Honda dealer on saturday morning and a tech said whenever they see this code, all they do is do an oil change. :roll: Sure enough, it fixed the problem.

redhotdaddy
01-20-2010, 05:26 PM
Hi was wondering what your results were with replacing the whole solenoid, as I seem to be coming down with a similar issue. Also could you tell me what the part number is for that solenoid?

bougie311
01-21-2010, 09:52 PM
I ordered 15810-RAA-A03 "VALVE ASSY., SPOOL" (#4 in this image below as I understand it.) My part is literally in the mail, when it arrives I'm hoping it includes #5-6, 12 &15). When ording online it was honestly hard to tell.

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/vtc.gif
(everything pictured under 4: 5,6,12,15, which includes the VTEC Solenoid Valve)

To be clear, it does not include #7,8,10, or 11 which is the VTC Oil Control Solenoid Valve or VTC Strainer. (Which would be a place to suspect for P0010, P0011, and P0341 according to my 2003 service manual.

When I looked at Service manual, any time it was oil pressure switch is taken apart to inspect or clean I needed the a new O-ring, regardless. So I have put off even that inspection yet.

#12 pictured,-The oil pressure switch being a common replacement, and the whole assembly a near last step. I'm <i>far</i> from a expert mechanic, but if I'm going to take the time to get it out, spending $74.12 to cover (3 potential problems) in one fell-swoop sounds good to me. (~and sounds reasonable after some extensive web research on this site amongst many others.)

Just checked the tracking on my part and looking like it should arrive tomorrow, so hopefully in a few days I'll have some more meaningful experiences to share on the subject.

With P2647, some people have just replaced the oil pressure switch and been fine; so you may consider that intermediate step also.

bougie311
01-23-2010, 07:27 PM
While I wait for my parts, came across this Service news bulletin from Honda that discusses the trouble codes (P2646, P2647) and repair strategy. Nothing too earth shattering, but interesting for basic documentations sake.

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A050300.PDF

Not sure why Honda felt the need to include this in a bulletin, as replacement of the VTEC oil pressure switch is in the standard troubleshooting (at least for P2647). Must be a higher failure rate item, or maybe they are trying to save techs and customer some time and money with a quicker service strategy.

bougie311
01-31-2010, 06:40 PM
Just finished replacing the whole assembly. Was pretty strait forward, looks like I took care of my p2647 code and problems that came with it.

I found it was easy to unclip the wires standing on a small stool looking over the engine. Taking off the passenger side wheel gave good access to the solenoid assembly ~comes off with 3 accessible bolts.

The only mildly annoying thing was the extra cables in the area being zip-tied to the unit.

I noticed my solenoid assembly had a faint rattle inside (but the new parts did not), perhaps that was my problem. The oil screen looked Ok, I didn't bother checking out the old oil pressure switch, a new one came with the assembly.

bougie311
01-31-2010, 10:06 PM
15810-RAA-A03* (VALVE ASSY., SPOOL ) is $74.12 plus shipping from http://www.hondapartsnow.com Includes, filter, o-ring, oil pressure switch, vtec spool valve. Pretty much just un-bolt the old one, put the the new one.

I didn't opt for just the oil pressure switch 37250-PNE-G01*, it would have been $40.79. Seem to be mix results floating around the web for just replacing that with the p2647 code.

*(Part numbers are for my model/year, I'm not sure how much they vary between years.)

hondamike12345
02-15-2010, 12:27 AM
the two things that i've seen cause this code are low oil level, and a bad vtec pressure switch. 9 times out of 10, it's a customer who's 2000 miles overdue for an oil change, and they're over a quart low.

i've also seen a few leaky vtec solenoid gaskets aka spool valve gasket. check that too.

mainlymetal
03-11-2010, 06:07 PM
My question is what is code 0011-camshaft position actuator bank 1 timing?

here some of the story....
i have an 03 and let the oil run very low like at least 2-3 quarts low. i did not realize it was low until i noticed the engine malfunction lite on. so i brought it in for an oil change and they checked for the codes, which were code 2646 and code 0011. they changed the oil and cleared the codes.

the car ran fine before, except for a "clunk sound" one time about 3 weeks prior to oil change. it is driving fine and the engine light hasnot reappeared.

should i be concerned about code 0011 camshaft?

not sue if i am asking this question in the proper location.

thanks for all replies

Elementery
03-23-2010, 12:54 AM
Experienced misfire and power loss this morning. Actually searched threads and got help from everyone. Took bougie311 advise and bought complete assemby at dealer and I was able to install the assembly in just over an
hour. My cel is still on and my ScanII still says code 2647!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Went on test drive and engine performs perfectly over repeat of route I took this morning when I had mis fires on several occasions. I have tried to "clear" code with the scanII but the light is still on. Is there some way to clear CEL that I am missing??? Thanks for all your help.:?

Elementery
03-23-2010, 01:02 AM
Bought "assembly" #15810-RAA-A03 and I installed it in just over an hour. Cel is still on and my SCANII still says P2647. Test drive over same route I was on this morning when I experienced misfires etc showed that engine is performing perfectly. I have tried to "clear codes" with ScanII to no avail.
Is there something I am missing?:? Thanks for your help.

Elementery
03-23-2010, 03:56 PM
Took my E out this morning and up the steepest/longest hill in Laguna Beach. CEL cleared by the time I got to the top. Engine runs as good as new.
My scangageII still says I have that code, so I will wait and see. Took just over 20 miles to get something happy after I installed new assembly.
I got something important from all the threads and you guys and gals. Many thanks$$$$$$$$$$:-)

asp
09-06-2010, 10:48 AM
After discovering a leak from the VTEC solenoid valve I ordered the OEM filter part number 15815-RAA-A02 shown below.

asp
09-07-2010, 08:53 AM
Due to chronic technical problems I cannot post the rest of my photos so here are text instructions for the filter replacement.

VTEC solenoid valve located on rear right of cylinder head next to exhaust manifold and above oil filter.

Disconnect VTEC solenoid valve and VTEC oil pressure switch connectors.

Remove the three 10 mm hex head bolts from above.

Remove the VTEC solenoid valve as a unit.

Measure the resistance between VTEC solenoid valve 2P connector terminals No. 1 and No. 2.

If the the resistance is within specification (14 - 30 Ohm), replace the filter as required.

Remove the old filter.

Clean the seating/mating surfaces for the filter.

Install valve ensuring filter is seated correctly and loosely tighten bolts.

Torque bolts to 9.8 N.m.

Reconnect VTEC solenoid valve and oil pressure switch connectors.

ramblerdan
10-09-2010, 09:04 PM
To replace the VTEC oil pressure switch, the service manual says to

1) remove the solenoid assembly from the engine
2) remove a cover from the solenoid assembly
3) remove the switch

From the illustrations, it seems like the switch should be removable in situ. The solenoid assembly looks like a right PITA to get at, so I'd like to replace just the switch first, and the assembly only if necessary.

Could someone who has done this job shed some light?

Also, a general question I'm almost embarrassed to ask: Are bolts more likely to break loose in a hot engine than a cold one? (I don't mean applying heat to the bolt.)

Honda Tech
10-10-2010, 09:40 AM
Could someone who has done this job shed some light?



Pretty easy to R&R switch. Use a deep 3/8 drive 6 point 22mm chrome socket(impact socket won't work, walls are too thick). Remove the bolt holding the P/S hose bracket from the cylinder head cover so you can deflect the P/S hose out of your way.

A new VTEC switch will NOT come with a new seal, which can (and should) be purchased separately.

Replacing the entire spool valve assembly isn't very hard either, just a little messy.

Seldom have issues with loosening the spool valve bolts. Less painful if the engine is cool. A good fitting socket and a quick snapping motion to break fasteners loose works better than applying force in a linear fashion.

ramblerdan
10-10-2010, 09:56 AM
Thanks, HT. I ordered the whole solenoid assembly and plan to take the switch off that, so don't have to worry about the O ring. Good to know, though. If I end up needing to replace the assembly, I can use my 3/8" pneumatic ratchet—which I wouldn't have thought of, if not for your advice to apply a "quick snapping motion."

LMntGuy1982
02-18-2011, 02:27 PM
Before you go spending any money on parts and or labor, I fixed mine by taking the solenoid assembly off (3 x 10mm bolts) and cleaning the screen. It was gunked up. The light didn't go off right away so I headed on to the Honda Dealer to get a new switch. Ironically enough the light turned off after I pulled out of the lot (without having the switch installed) and it hasn't been on since. It's a free fix and if it works, great! If not, well you're not out any money.

dom08
03-11-2011, 03:33 PM
for code p2646.. rocker arm actuator system performance or stuck off blank 1..... this is for the VTEC Oil pressure switch(on the header)... not the oil pressure switch (on the block)

my dealer quotes me.....

oil pressure switch (located on block)
$33.95

vtec oil pressure switch (located on head)
$100.42

ramblerdan
03-11-2011, 04:31 PM
Yes, VTEC is all about oil pressure at the head. I don't know whether the oil pressure switch on the block is relevant to that code.

"Switch assy., valve timing oil pressure," Honda p/n 37250-PNE-G01 (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~switch~assy~37250-PNE-G01.html), lists for $58 retail.

Before replacing anything, I'd change the engine oil and filter, clean the VTEC screen (or just replace it—the assembly, p/n 15840-RAA-A00 (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~strainer~assy~15840-RAA-A00.html), can be had for for $10–$15), and reseat the electrical connectors.

dom08
03-11-2011, 04:40 PM
does someone have a source that they can lead me to where to get it online? i dont want to give honda $100 for something that is worth half that price

ramblerdan
03-11-2011, 04:45 PM
Online vendors include (in alpha order):
Bernardi (http://www.bernardiparts.com/PartSearchPage.aspx) (Massachusetts)
Cheap Honda Parts (http://www.cheaphondaparts.com) (California)
College Hills Honda (http://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?action=getJointLocator&siteid=215070&year=2008) (Ohio)
Honda Parts Deals (http://www.hondapartsdeals.com/honda_parts.php) (Rhode Island)
Honda Parts Now (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/models/honda~element~parts.html) (California)
Honda Parts Store (http://www.thehondapartsstore.com) (Maryland)
Honda Parts Unlimited (http://www.hondapartsunlimited.com) (Arizona)
Majestic (http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catdisplay.jsp) (Rhode Island)
My Honda Parts Store (http://www.myhondapartsstore.com) (Oklahoma)
Real Honda Parts (http://www.realhondaparts.com/rwhonda/jsp/home.jsp) (Texas)

The part numbers in post #45 above are links to hondapartsnow.com (I'm not endorsing that vendor in particular; I just find their site easy to search). The illustration in post #18 above does also.

Have you read through these threads?
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28415
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31547
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39822

dom08
03-11-2011, 05:19 PM
Yes, VTEC is all about oil pressure at the head. I don't see what the oil pressure switch on the block has to do with it.

"Switch assy., valve timing oil pressure," Honda p/n 37250-PNE-G01 (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~switch~assy~37250-PNE-G01.html), lists for $58 retail. $100 for that part is quite a markup.

Before replacing anything, I'd change the engine oil and filter, clean the VTEC screen (or just replace it—the assembly, p/n 15840-RAA-A00 (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~strainer~assy~15840-RAA-A00.html), can be had for for $10–$15), and reseat the electrical connectors.

the screen in located on the vtec oil pressure switch? i dont have my truck with me right now so i can't go look at it right now.

yes ive searched the threads, and have learned alot within the hour on this problem. Thank you VERY much for helping me out! i really appreciate it!

ramblerdan
03-11-2011, 08:31 PM
> the screen is located on the vtec oil pressure switch?

Negative, separate part. See illustrations here (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=394461). Click on the top image for a full parts list.

dom08
03-11-2011, 10:20 PM
you have to take off the a/c compressor to get the front filter out?? :?

ramblerdan
03-11-2011, 10:44 PM
Service manual:
H&A (http://www.handa-accessories.com/elementselect/manual.html) (site sponsor)
Helm Inc. (http://www.helminc.com/helm/Result.asp?Style=&Mfg=AHM&Make=AHM&Model=ELEM&Year=2004&Category=1&Keyword=&Module=&mscsid=XH17U7D4DV0W9JARKEFL2M57XKM1FTNA)

dom08
03-11-2011, 10:49 PM
update:
i got the assy. out... the fliter was about 65% clogged...

dom08
03-12-2011, 12:55 AM
has anyone gotten the front filter (#11)... the bolts (#19)are too long to get out without hitting the pulleys. and the a/c compressor

lizzurd
03-12-2011, 11:44 AM
has anyone gotten the front filter (#11)... the bolts (#19)are too long to get out without hitting the pulleys. and the a/c compressor


That is the power steering pump you are looking at. You are not gettting those bolts out without pulling the pump and auto tensioner off first.

ramblerdan
03-12-2011, 02:03 PM
Just curious, when you said "i got the assy. out... the fliter was about 65% clogged... " what assembly were you referring to, if not the "Strainer assy., VTC" (15840-RAA-A00) and "Filter assy., VTC" (15845-RAA-A01), #10 and #11 above?

dom08
03-12-2011, 02:18 PM
It would be the strainer that i got out.
i took that out and cleaned it, now will probably order a new one in for the $2 its worth and just replace it.
after cleaning the strainer i deleted the code and it hasnt come back on:)

i will work at the fitler assy. (#10) today. Thanks alot lizzurd for clarifying that!
also thanks alot ramblerdan for helping out alot also!

ramblerdan
03-13-2011, 12:08 AM
Sorry but I'm still not clear. Is this the part you cleaned?

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/15815-raa-a02.gif (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~filter~assy~15815-RAA-A02.html)

Filter assy., spool valve, Honda p/n 15815-RAA-A02 (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~filter~assy~15815-RAA-A02.html) (replaces 15815-RAA-A01) (ref. #5 in illustration SCV3-E1010 (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/engine/e__1010~2004~honda~element~5dr_ex_4wd_sd_a_1_b~5mt ~ka~vtc~oil~control~valve.html)).

dom08
03-13-2011, 05:03 PM
Sorry but I'm still not clear. Is this the part you cleaned?

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/15815-raa-a02.gif (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~filter~assy~15815-RAA-A02.html)



thats the one. with the strainer at the bottom half. it was quite clogged.
should i worry about changing/cleaning the filter (#11) if i cleaned the strainer out?

lizzurd
03-13-2011, 05:07 PM
thats the one. with the strainer at the bottom half. it was quite clogged.
should i worry about changing/cleaning the filter (#11) if i cleaned the strainer out?


In the 9 years this motor has been in service i have never sold one. It's up to you if you want to put all that work in changing it if your problem is fixed.

dom08
03-13-2011, 07:39 PM
so its not like its needed, as long as the rear screen is clear? the rear one i would think is more important as it is right before the oil pressure switch.... correct?

lizzurd
03-13-2011, 07:46 PM
I am not saying it isn't needed. It is there for a reason. All i am saying is that i have never seen any one replace it.

If it was me and the cleaning the other screen solved the issue i would leave it. If i had a code pointing towards an issue with the VTC actuator yes i would rip it apart and change it.


As i said in my last post it is a lot of work to get in there to remove it.

The choice is your as to wether you replace it or not.

dom08
03-13-2011, 08:13 PM
my code just said "rocker arm actuator system performance or stuck off blank 1"
as soon as i cleaned the screen near the switch i deleted the code and it seems to run fine now.

packerz4
03-24-2011, 10:05 PM
hi, is this the plate that needs to come off to clean the screen? is there a special gasket that's needed to put it back together? is cleaning this screen pretty simple? (what i'm really asking is: can i do it?... i've installed 2 hitches, wiring harnesses, changed differential fluid, put on new hatch struts, etc... so i'm not totally clueless) :)

ramblerdan
03-25-2011, 10:39 AM
> is this the plate that needs to come off to clean the screen?

Behind that plate is one of the two VTEC screens, "Filter assy., VTC," Honda p/n 15845-RAA-A01 (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~filter~assy~15845-RAA-A01.html) (ref. #11 in illustration SCV3-E1010 (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/engine/e__1010~2004~honda~element~5dr_ex_4wd_sd_a_1_b~5mt ~ka~vtc~oil~control~valve.html)). As Lizzurd noted in post #76 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=908749), you will have to remove the serpentine belt, tensioner, and power steering pump to get to it.

Service manual:
H&A (http://www.handa-accessories.com/elementselect/manual.html) (site sponsor)
Helm Inc. (http://www.helminc.com/helm/Result.asp?Style=&Mfg=AHM&Make=AHM&Model=ELEM&Year=2004&Category=1&Keyword=&Module=&mscsid=XH17U7D4DV0W9JARKEFL2M57XKM1FTNA)

retox
07-22-2011, 10:38 AM
Man o man it's already 88F here in Pittsburgh. I just took a look at the #5 screen and its clean as a whistle. I did notice ( like someone else had posted) that there was a very slight rattle when i shock the solenoid unit. It did however allow me to rev past 3k, at least for the 2 blocks i drove it. It's possible that will change once the engine warms up. So now its off to get the oil changed, and I just ordered the entire assembly (#4) from majestic. With S&H it came to $88. Keep you posted on the outcome.

retox
07-27-2011, 09:18 PM
So after I removed the solenoid and reinstalled it the code was no longer going off, and the problem has not come back in over a week! I canceled the part and with just 1 hour of labor my element is back to normal!

I did notice the screen (#5) looked very clean, perhaps if one simply unplugs the sensors on the oil solenoid body (there were two i believe) then it can reset itself, just a thought.

the_box_rox
01-30-2012, 10:28 PM
Only one oil pressure switch for the v-tech.

Oh, okay, I thought there were two Vtec 'switches' and one solenoid? Can you please clarify?
RED ARROW = Switch
WHITE ARROW = Solenoid
BLUE ARROW = Switch
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h430/wcook913/elementmotoredited.jpg

Also, Lizzurd...sorry for the repetitive posts...I need to quit thinking that perhaps a more descriptive title may lead me to answers faster.

lizzurd
01-30-2012, 10:35 PM
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=76910&stc=1&d=1264292071

the_box_rox
01-30-2012, 10:51 PM
Okay, sorry for the stupidity but I'm having trouble locating the solenoid in the Honda parts schematic below:
http://www.hondapartsnow.com/engine/e__1010~2004~honda~element~5dr_ex_4wd_sd_a_1_b~5mt ~ka~vtc~oil~control~valve.html

Can you identify the part number that is the Vtec solenoid? Is this the one that requires a 22mm socket for removal?
Does #4 come with the solenoid, the switch and the other goodies needed to "hopefully" take care of the P2647 code?
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h430/wcook913/Elementparts.png

(I should probably read back through this thread...huh?)

lizzurd
01-31-2012, 12:43 PM
#4 is the V-tec solenoid valve assembly.

#12 is the v-tec oil pressure switch.

#7 is the VTC (variable valve timing control) oil control soleniod valve.

ramblerdan
01-31-2012, 05:00 PM
Thanks, Lizzurd. So that means

1) there really are two solenoids in the Element's VTEC system;

2) nineteen VTEC-related DTCs (P0010, P0026–P0029, P0075–P0085, P2648, P2649) have "solenoid" in their descriptions; and

3) on parts vendors' lists, the only VTEC part that actually has "solenoid" in its name (#9 in illustration above) is a bolt.

I can see how that would cause confusion!

lizzurd
01-31-2012, 05:17 PM
Thanks, Lizzurd. So that means

1) there really are two solenoids in the VTEC system;

2) nineteen VTEC-related DTCs (P0010, P0026P0029, P0075P0085, P2648, P2649) have "solenoid" in their descriptions; and

3) the only part with "solenoid" in its name is a bolt.

I can see how that would cause confusion!


There is still only one soleniod for the V-Tec system.

The VTC while related is technically a different sytem.

Variable Timing Control (VTC)

The camshaft VTC (Variable Timing Control) system adds to the i-VTEC engine for continuously variable camshaft phasing across the engine's entire power band. As engine rpm builds, a VTC actuator - controlled by an engine-control unit that monitors cam position, ignition timing, exhaust emission and throttle position - advances or retards the intake cam throughout a range, optimizing engine output and reducing emissions.

During typical operation, the intake camshaft timing is almost fully retarded at idle to help provide more stable idling while reducing the exhaust emissions (Nox). As rpm increases, the intake camshaft is advanced, opening the intake valve sooner and providing additional valve overlap. This results in increasing fuel economy (by reducing pumping losses) and a further reduction in exhaust emissions (by creating a large internal exhaust gas re-circulation effect).
Also, to generate additional power throughout the rev range, the intake camshaft is continuously varying the amount of advance or retard, instantly adjusting to provide additional power as required by the driver.

ramblerdan
01-31-2012, 05:52 PM
Oh, I had thought i-VTEC was just a refinement of some earlier VTC system. Thanks for that.

So we have VTC (Variable Timing Control) and i-VTEC (intelligent Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control) on the same cylinder head. That, in addition to the absence of "solenoid" in the part names, will always engender confusion, I'm afraid.

lizzurd
01-31-2012, 08:15 PM
Oh, I had thought i-VTEC was just a refinement of some earlier VTC system. Thanks for that.

So we have VTC (Variable Timing Control) and i-VTEC (intelligent Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control) on the same cylinder head. That, in addition to the absence of "solenoid" in the part names, will always engender confusion, I'm afraid.

Welcome to my world.

Where in the parts listings were definately not written by the same people that wrote the service manuall.

If they call it one name in the service manual you would only thing it to be logical to call it the same name in the parts books......

Flat Lander
01-31-2012, 09:45 PM
Welcome to my world.

Where in the parts listings were definately not written by the same people that wrote the service manuall.

If they call it one name in the service manual you would only thing it to be logical to call it the same name in the parts books......

Unfortunately, it's the same in my line of work (aircraft maintenance). It's frustrating that the Aircraft OEM's have a job position titled "Nomenclaturist". It's more frustrating that most of the people in that position have never even seen an airplane, let alone worked on one. We have the same issues with the people that write the maintenance manuals and parts catalogs, two different groups that have little to no communication with each other.

mjwboofer
02-03-2012, 02:20 AM
This has been an amazingly helpful thread.
I had Code was P2647 at about 95,000 miles and I hoped it was just low oil (I did add 1 qt, which seemed to help briefly but the light remained on) and would often (but not always) get the acceleration problems as others have described. It seemed to do better once it was warmed up.

At one point, I did have P2649 as well. I changed the oil (but wasn't hopeful) and when that didn't work, I replaced the whole VTEC solenoid assembly (which includes the pressure switch). I test drove it tonight and it seems to be all better now.:-)

The local Honda dealer's price was not a lot higher than having it shipped in 2nd day air. I was surprised how easy it was to get at...the tip of removing the right front wheel was essential (and I did my serp belt at the same time).

I have used synthetic (Royal Purple then Mobil 1) for the 40,000 I've owned the car (so did prior owner). I'll admit that I ran it a bit longer (6,000-8,000) between oil changes and someone suggested that may be a contributing factor in this.

Thanks to all who posted amazing tips, perspectives and advice on this one. Once again the "What is most likely wrong?" approach seems to have saved me some $$$.

the_box_rox
02-04-2012, 12:01 AM
A little update.
I replaced the complete vtec valve assembly or as some refer to it; the oil pressure switch solenoid assembly or as Honda refers to it; VALVE ASSY., SPOOL. In any case, it's part# 4 in the below schematic.
http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h430/wcook913/Elementparts.png

So far I've driven 50 miles and no CEL and no code. I'm not jumping for joy quite yet. Last time it took 80 something miles before the CEL came back on... I've got my fingers crossed.

For the record; changing this part out is darn near as simple as it gets. I had the old one out and the new one installed in 17 minutes...no exaggeration. If you know what a 3/8" drive ratchet, a 3" extension and a shallow 10mm socket is do not be afraid to tackle this job. The biggest problem you will have and what will take the longest is locating the bolt holes in the backside of the head when reassembling. It's in a 'blind-spot' and you'll need to feel with your fingers and poke the bolt around until you feel the 'sweet spot'. I cheated and zip-tied a small pocket mirror to the back of the firewall; it worked perfect but my wife is pissed...apparently she loved her little mirror and hated the small hole I drilled in it for my zip-tie...GOOD LUCK!

Neslo D
02-19-2012, 04:35 PM
I just went through this same issue and here's my story and theory.

Story: Car started missing/falling on it's face under load. I followed everyone's advice and replaced the switch. While doing this I saw the screen was pretty badly blocked so I cleaned that. Went for a drive and the car went a lot further and then the problem came back. I then replaced the entire valve spool assembly (~$100 from Honda) and changed the oil and filter. After this the problem is gone.

Theory. In hindsight I bet that all of the sensors were fine. I checked resistance across the terminals of both parts (old and new) and they matched. I think the only problem was the oil filter I had. When I drained the oil it didn't come pouring out of the filter like it usually does. After I replaced the switch I noticed the screen was clogged again making me think it was just the screen clogging. It was around a $150 lesson total.

Advice: If you take the assembly apart and see that the screen is clogged, that's probably the only problem. Replace the screen, change the engine oil and filter and try it out. I'm guessing that if I had done this I would've avoided spending $ on parts. If the filter isn't clogged then try either replacing just the switch or the entire spool ass'y.


D

Chewdoggie
03-17-2012, 02:49 AM
2005 E-ex at. I'm throwing a p2646 & p1009 after picking my car up from body shop. This last accident was a collision of the front right of my E vs 17 yr old going about 25-30 mph. I thought it was mostly cosmetic damage...$2k. But now I'm throwing these codes 3 miles from the body shop, car bucks...and surprise, insurance is saying that its probably not accident related (you pay for it). Oil level was fine, last change was 4k ago. Now the side note is, that six months ago some distracted driver hit me in the same place on the car while I was stopped in an intersection. He was going about 50mph...caused $12k in damage/repair costs. Included throttle body replacement...total engine and transmission removal and reinstall.... Car has been getting crap gas mileage since then....appx. 16.7mpg city...poor acceleration compared to my 2004 Element....and idles at 1100 rpm at start up. Does anyone know if there could be any relation to these codes relating to either throttle body, engine assembly from first accident, impacts...or is this just more bad luck? I'm going to check the screen, do the oil filter change and see if the p2646 clears, but I'm worried about the p1009 and possibility that this goesback to first accident. I know I'm throwing a lot out, but its been a bad six months...and btw airbags have never deployed...so I'm not having alot of confidence in this car anymore. She looks great tho....body shop has her back to new. Any ideas are helpful.

lizzurd
03-25-2012, 08:15 PM
P1009 HONDA - Variable Valve Timing Control Advance Malfunction

Possible causes
- Engine oil level
- Dirty engine oil
- Check VTC Strainer for blockage
- Faulty VTC Oil Control Solenoid or circuit
- Faulty VTC Actuator
- Engine mechanical problems

Tech notes
An stretched timing chain or damaged tensioner can also caused triggered the P1009 code. Before replacing timing chain or tensioner, check engine oil level and condition. Replaced engine oil and filter with factory recommend oil weight if necessary.

P1009 HONDA Description
The variable valve timing control (VTC) system controls the phase of the intake camshaft. It uses oil pressure to operate the VTC actuator so the valve timing is optimized depending on driving conditions. The engine control module (ecm)/Powertrain control module (pcm) monitors the phase control command and the actual timing of the camshaft by using camshaft position (CMP) sensor A. If an over-advanced camshaft phase (compared to the directed value) continues or when the camshaft phase is otherwise abnormal, a malfunction is detected and a DTC is stored.


If you haven't already done so i would look at cleaning the VTC strainer.

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=908749&postcount=76

ramblerdan
06-18-2012, 10:17 AM
Back in October 2010, I encountered the "limp mode" 3K rpm limit. Naturally it was on a Friday evening of a holiday weekend. I drove home (very slowly!) and ordered a VTEC oil pressure switch, solenoid, and gaskets online.

The next day, with the engine cool, I decided to poke around so as to get an idea of what would be involved physically with the repair, and removed the solenolid connector to see what size wrench I would need. Put the connector back on, started the engine, and voila, no more problem. After a couple of starts and miles, the Check Engine light went off.

So the problem was simply a bad electrical connection. Ever since then, though, I've carried the replacement parts in the car just in case.

This past weekend the same problem occured while I was on the interstate. I pulled over, reseated the solenoid connector (and another connector nearby on the side of the block, perhaps a knock sensor), and was back on the road in five minutes. The Check Engine light has also gone off.

Makes you wonder how many owners have replaced those parts unnecessarily.

This is just one example of why I tell people to reseat connectors and check grounds as a first resort when troubleshooting weird electrical problems.

Edit, August 2012: Happened for a third time last week. This time it close to home, so I was able to fashion a tool to clean the contacts and applied dielectric grease to the connections. Ran fine afterward, and as with the other times, the engine light eventually went out on its own.

desinia
06-18-2012, 10:55 AM
Back in October 2010, I encountered the "limp mode" 3K rpm limit. [blah blah] This is just one example of why I tell people to reseat connectors and check grounds as a first resort when troubleshooting weird electrical problems.

What kind of connectors are on that? The reason I ask is because this reminds me of a chronic problem that GM v-8 engines had for years in the distributor. They had a module under the rotor that got ground from a large contact surface made of dissimilar metals that oxidized (but you couldn't see it) and ruined performance until you pulled it out, cleaned both surfaces, and greased the heck out of it to slow down the next bunch. I'm wondering if Honda is using something like that - aluminum connectors on copper pins, etc.

ramblerdan
06-18-2012, 01:44 PM
You can't see much without disassembling one of those connectors. AFAIK all the Honda connectors use steel conductors.

Reiterdie
07-06-2012, 01:37 PM
Hello,

My wife drives an 07 Element which I've grown quite attached to, she bought it before we started dating. She's got the old P2647 CEL code and I want to fix this by myself as the Honda dealership is quoting $267+tax to replace just the oil pressure switch.

After reading this thread I'm thinking I may just do the whole valve assy, spool.

First off, for someone who knows next to nothing about being a mechanic but has a good head on his shoulders and loves to do "guy stuff", how reasonable is it to think I can replace the 15810-RAA-A03 (being an extreme amateur) and what tools do I need to get the job done? I appreciate your feedback and input, help me look like a champ with my wife...Thanks. I need to get my wife's car fixed.

ramblerdan
07-09-2012, 10:46 AM
Welcome, Reiterdie.

If you plan to work on the car in the future, get a service manual now; it will pay for itself on this job alone. Otherwise, you'll only need ordinary metric tools. That valve assembly is a bit of a pain to get to, wedged between the back of the engine and the firewall, but some patience, knuckle-busting, and swearing will get you through it.

Service manual:
H&A (http://www.handa-accessories.com/elementselect/manual.html)
Helm Inc. (http://www.helminc.com/helm/Result.asp?Style=&Mfg=AHM&Make=AHM&Model=ELEM&Year=2004&Category=1&Keyword=&Module=&mscsid=XH17U7D4DV0W9JARKEFL2M57XKM1FTNA)

captdale
08-08-2012, 11:35 PM
Hi - had a prob with my El. When accel especially going up hill or trying to pass, would stall out and set the engine light and rev limiter. couldn't rev past 2700 rpm. VERY dangerous !! Turn it off, restart and all good until the next time. Problem turned out to be the Vtec selenoid filter was clogged with carbon and sluffed off bronz babbet. Three 10mm screws takes off the valve with it's micro wire screen filter which is part of the gasket. cleaned the filter put it back on the engine and all Good !! Easy fix. Captdale.

jasoncarpenter1
08-09-2012, 10:50 PM
HELP.........have posted in this thread before, very helpful.
can not stop the limp mode from happening. changed oil and filter. still getting engine light and p2646 code. cleaned the screen on the v-tech/oil pressure switch. still going into limp mode. went to honda and bought and installed the whole v-tech/oil pressure assembly with new screen. still going into limp mode............:evil:
am at my whits end..............

jasoncarpenter1
08-10-2012, 07:35 PM
am i missing something??????
should i just take it to a honda dealership????

jesbecause
08-10-2012, 08:51 PM
Honda recommends changing the oil again after replacement of oil pressure switch , check electrical connect .

Good luck

jasoncarpenter1
08-11-2012, 01:21 PM
update.......i started all over. took everthing off. found a lose wire. i believe it is the oil pressure sensor below the v-tech assembly. it has been hot in So Cal all week and i did not let motor cool enough. was trying not to burn my forearm on the side of motor. i must have pulled it out. all put back together. so far so good. the test will be monday when i drive to work..............

jasoncarpenter1
08-13-2012, 10:00 PM
update.............i drove to work this mourning and about 20 minutes into my commute...........YES limp mode. pulled code p2646..........this is getting old. i cleaned the what i believe is the oil pressure sensor below the v-tech assembly. if it happeneds again tomorrow will buy a new one. if that doesnt work am going to trade it in for a FORD.......
could it be something else???????????

jasoncarpenter1
08-19-2012, 11:05 AM
as you can see, i bought and installed the factory honda v-tech assembly.
i attempted to install an auto zone oil pressure switch. but after taking out the old one it was clear that the dura last one had a bigger threaded end. so after taking back to them and double checking everything, i was refunded my money and bought the right one from honda.......

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/misc/IMG_20120818_103610.jpg


http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/misc/IMG_20120818_114423.jpg

so after installing everything new and of course new oil and filter. yes as soon as i get up to freeway speed then slow down............engine light and "LIMP MODE"..............:evil:

jasoncarpenter1
08-19-2012, 06:28 PM
whats wierd is after about five starts the engine light goes out and it drives fine until i go about 70 m.p.h. then slow down........

jasoncarpenter1
08-26-2012, 01:04 AM
so i did motor flush and get oil pan off and i clean everything..........will find out monday mourning with my commute to work.............
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/misc/IMG_20120825_152734.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/misc/IMG_20120825_152722.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/misc/IMG_20120825_150730.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/misc/IMG_20120825_150726.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/misc/IMG_20120825_150652.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/misc/IMG_20120825_150645.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/misc/IMG_20120825_150632.jpg

dom08
08-26-2012, 08:26 PM
Hey guys.
I popped this code p2646 again.. The first time was 10or so months ago. An today it popped again. Last time it was solved by cleaning the oil pressure screen. Why would this pop again? How could debris get clogged again

ramblerdan
08-27-2012, 10:47 AM
When you cleaned the screen, did you also change the oil & filter? How many miles since the last oil change?

Also, have you tried reseating the connectors (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=959543)?

dom08
08-28-2012, 02:52 AM
Yes the oil was changed at the same time. Here is the exact code

"P2646- A rocker arm actuator system performance or stuck off bank 1"

jasoncarpenter1
08-28-2012, 10:09 AM
Yes the oil was changed at the same time. Here is the exact code

"P2646- A rocker arm actuator system performance or stuck off bank 1"

thats exactly what code i keep getting as you can see i have tried almost everything. have been told by some people that i could have a faulty ECM.
what do you guys think about that? e-bay has them around 50.00-150.00......

dom08
08-28-2012, 12:20 PM
Mine isn't constant though. When I start my truck after about an hour or so of it being off...drive around for 10-15 minutes and it starts to bog at 3000 rmp. The CEL will stay on this whole time keep in mind. I was thinking of replacing the oil pressure switch, any thoughts?

Edit: I did clean the screen yesterday (it was a bit dirty) and 10 minutes after erasing the CEL it came back on with the 3000 rpm bog issue

jasoncarpenter1
08-28-2012, 07:36 PM
Mine isn't constant though. When I start my truck after about an hour or so of it being off...drive around for 10-15 minutes and it starts to bog at 3000 rmp. The CEL will stay on this whole time keep in mind. I was thinking of replacing the oil pressure switch, any thoughts?

Edit: I did clean the screen yesterday (it was a bit dirty) and 10 minutes after erasing the CEL it came back on with the 3000 rpm bog issue

the oil pressure switch cost 23.00 at honda, the v-tech assy-spool is 130.00.
try the small stuff first. i am split between taking to honda or just getting a ECM off of e-bay.........

dom08
08-29-2012, 12:38 PM
Try getting yours just diagnosed at Honda to see the issue and take it from there. Mine has been getting better on its own. When I erase the code it stays off for quite a bit now but I just picked up an oil pressure switch anyways

jasoncarpenter1
08-30-2012, 10:40 PM
Honda wants to charge me 49.99 for a diagnostic. am tempted to do it just to see what they say. i have a real nice snap on code reader and i keep getting the same code 2646.

henrybo
11-27-2012, 03:08 PM
Took it to the dealer. They told me I needed a new spool valve. $478.00. Does anybody have a pic of where the spool valve is?

Rick92040
11-27-2012, 05:21 PM
See post #9 of this thread. the Spool Valve is the VTEC Solenid.
A $80. part on ebay..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-Honda-Element-Spool-Valve-VTEC-Solenoid-/260781885929

jasoncarpenter1
12-01-2012, 12:41 PM
i took mine to Penske Honda in Ontario Ca. told them i replaced VTEC spool and oil pressure switch that i bought from them. Told them the whole story with mine. They had my Element about two days said it was fixed, said the check engine light did not come back on. i asked if they took it on a test drive on the freeway, he said no. I told them it wasn't fixed then. As soon as i got up to freeway speed then go under fourty, engine light comes on and limp mode ensues......... The helpful Honda guy said bring it back and they will look into it. I just don't want them doing a process of elimination on parts i have already replaced, charging me for everything. Any ideas????? Someone said i might have a faulty computer. i can get one off e-bay. any help is appreciated????
thanks Jason, the guy with cronic limp mode......

Larsa39
12-03-2012, 10:05 AM
Had P2647 OBD trouble code, and car would "stall" at about 2800 rpm, just as stated in comments above. I read that this was typically a problem re low oil pressure and/or clogged screen in the VTEC oil pressure sensor (reportedly about $250-$300 P+L to replace the sensor at dealership). Since I hadn't had the oil changed in about 8 months I went to Jiffy Lube and had flush (oil bath flush), and oil and filter change (total cost about $110 with discount - note that Jiffy Lube will give you a discount on bundled services purchase if you ask). Now, no problem whatsoever with operation. Just had to clear the engine light w/my Actron brand OBD II PocketScan.

jasoncarpenter1
12-04-2012, 10:30 AM
Had P2647 OBD trouble code, and car would "stall" at about 2800 rpm, just as stated in comments above. I read that this was typically a problem re low oil pressure and/or clogged screen in the VTEC oil pressure sensor (reportedly about $250-$300 P+L to replace the sensor at dealership). Since I hadn't had the oil changed in about 8 months I went to Jiffy Lube and had flush (oil bath flush), and oil and filter change (total cost about $110 with discount - note that Jiffy Lube will give you a discount on bundled services purchase if you ask). Now, no problem whatsoever with operation. Just had to clear the engine light w/my Actron brand OBD II PocketScan.

I have never had jiffy lube do a oil bath flush. when i first got the E there seem to be a lot sludge in the engine, when you took the oil cap off and looked inside. I have done 12 oil changes in the last 18 months. four of which i did put in motor flush before changing. My buddy has a Snap-On OBD II. we have erased the codes 50-60 times. they always come back...........will look into it thanks. jason

englocon
12-28-2012, 08:20 PM
Hello All, I have read this thread from start to finish and I have performed both of the procedures suggested here (cleaned filters on strainer assembly and spool valve assembly) on my 2003 Element. However, now I have a couple of questions as I wrap up working on this project.

I am having trouble finding the torque specs for the following items in the manual I have:
1. Tensioner pulley assembly bolts
2. Strainer assembly bolts (#19 in parts fiche)
3. Spool valve assembly bolts (#20 in parts fiche?) - I have seen both 7.2 lbf/ft and 7.5 lbf/ft...

The only torque value I could find in the manual was for the power steering pump (16 lbf/ft) in the "power steering" section of the manual.

In addition, does anyone have a good technique for getting to the bolt on the underside of the tensioner pulley assembly? I can't seem to get to the bolt due to the engine mount and tensioner pulley and I'm afraid I won't be able to torque it down properly.

brando462
01-16-2013, 12:35 PM
When I replace the entire solenoid assy, do I need to apply oil to the gasket?

Island E
01-16-2013, 04:36 PM
Is it an actual gasket or a rubber o-ring type of thing? If it's the rubber one I would. If it's the cardboard looking one I wouldn't. Just make sure that the surface it butts up against is clean and has no residue from the old gasket.

jasoncarpenter1
01-17-2013, 03:32 PM
update on mine...... i had some early success when i was dealing with the limp mode 2646 code. right before i would change the oil i would put in a bottle of motor flush. per directions it says idle motor for five minutes before changing. so i got to thinking maybe i would drive around the block and give the motor flush a little more time to work under a little more pressure. well i have had some more success, i have driven 20-30 miles at freeway speed without my E going into limp mode or engine light coming on. i was able to drive there fine. but on my return trip it did go into limp mode. so now i thinking about doing it again but giving the motor flush even longer time in motor. i remember how much sludge was in top of motor just by taking off the oil filler cap and looking in there. i'm thinking the slugde has something to do with it.
any idea's why?????

Island E
01-17-2013, 04:09 PM
Ever try running that sea foam stuff in your engine for a while? Supposedly that's some decent stuff for cleaning out gunk. Run a little though the vacuum booster and then put the rest in the crank case. Instructions are on the can.

I ran a whole can through my brake booster on an old neglected beater civic I bought a while back and the smoke show was crazy. :-)

jasoncarpenter1
01-19-2013, 12:11 AM
Ever try running that sea foam stuff in your engine for a while? Supposedly that's some decent stuff for cleaning out gunk. Run a little though the vacuum booster and then put the rest in the crank case. Instructions are on the can.

I ran a whole can through my brake booster on an old neglected beater civic I bought a while back and the smoke show was crazy. :-)

thats sounds like a good idea, am going to buy some and use.......

jpeaslee
01-19-2013, 10:39 PM
So I went down to orlando for a work conference this weekend. On my way back I started to get the 3k rpm buck. I thought it was my transmission, so I pulled off the highway and got a hotel. I've now seen all these vtec pressure switch problems and I think that's probably what it is. Is this something I can limp back 200 miles at 50mph (no problems at 50mph) to my home and then work on it (or take it to honda) there? I can go to an autozone in the morning to verify the engine code. I doubt they'll have the correct switch. If I wanted to take out the screen (part #5) is oil going to leak out everywhere? Do you have to drain the oil first?

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/vtec01.gif

jasoncarpenter1
01-20-2013, 03:48 PM
it is fairly easy to clean screen. you have to take out 3 bolts (10mm) on the v-tec spoo,l unplug the sensors. very little oil will come out. just use a rag to wipe up. the screen is on the spool. clean, change oil and filter. you should be good. if you still have limp mode, you can still drive about 65-68mph you just cant go past 2900 rpm are it will sputter or give you no throttle responce until your speed is lower than 60mph. hope this helps

Ghoelix
02-11-2013, 08:00 PM
First post!

This has been an excellent site for researching before I actually bought my Element and recently, for troubleshooting problems.

I had VSA, CEL lights come on a couple days ago with engine stuttering while getting up to freeway speeds. Upon the recommendations of this website I got an OBD2 scanner and P2646 and P2647 came up. I called the local Honda dealership and they had the oil pressure switch / valve assembly in stock. I actually managed to successfully replace it, wasn't as hard as it first looked. Got an oil change right after. P2646 cleared on its own and I used scanner to clear P2647, will test on freeway in a bit to make sure it doesn't come back ( I hope it stays gone ).

Did run into one small problem, though I got a torque wrench that fit my sockets ( with adapter ), the handle is too long for me to use it effectively on the bolts that hold the oil pressure assembly in place. I tightened them pretty good but not so much that I couldn't turn them anymore. My question would be, how important is it to get just the right torque on them? I'm hoping that the Honda dealer wouldn't mind checking for me but I doubt I can do that today or tomorrow.

So what do you think? Is it probably fine, or is it important to get it just right and get it done right away? Also, how are you guys managing to torque the bolts, is there a certain wrench that works best for that space?

Thank you,

Ghoelix

jasoncarpenter1
02-12-2013, 12:46 PM
you will be fine. i R & R mine all the time. i just tighten it down as much as i can like you did. post up if everything you did worked.........8)

Ghoelix
02-12-2013, 11:57 PM
It looks like everything turned out fine. I've taken several in town and freeway trips and none of the dash lights or acceleration / stuttering problems have returned. I wiped up the oil spilled when I changed the assembly and put newspaper under that part of the E over night - no drips. Drove it freeway to work 16 miles away and parked for 8 hours - no drips. I think it's solid. :)

Is yours all sorted out now, Jason?

Ghoelix

jasoncarpenter1
02-13-2013, 10:13 PM
not completely. but i know the sludge has a lot to do with it.

jcbcb
02-27-2013, 08:18 PM
I'm new to the forum and appreciate everyone's experience. My '03 Element, 115K, has had a shudder at low-load 1600 rpm occasionally and now the check engine light has come on. Local shop computer says P2646. (The Honda dealer replaced the VTEC unit a couple of years ago when I had trouble accelerating, a different symptom than the current one). I changed spark plugs a few thousand miles ago.
From what I gather from comments here, cleaning or replacing the VTEC unit and changing the oil and filter (not overdue) might solve the problem.
This is my first automatic so I'm learning what a torque converter is. Is it likely to be the problem, though, if shuddering occurs under light load and low rpm? We hope not, right?

Squank
03-20-2013, 01:40 PM
I had this problem with my 08 SC - VSA light, Engine light, P2646 code, bucking like a bronco when accelerating - and I followed the advice from this forum and fixed it. I learned precisely the quickest and most economical method for fixing this permanently and I wanted to come back here and share it so I'm not just leeching info. (This forum kicks ass with steel-toed combat boots, BTW)

Initially, I followed the instructions to remove the valve spool unit entirely, clean the screen, reinstall and change oil. Reset code and it ran fine for about 2 weeks and then *bingo* came right back.

Second time around, I ordered the entire valve assembly spool after pricing it at all the online sites listed in the forum and got the whole deal with heat shield, sensors and all for about 90 bucks including shipping. I had already removed and reinstalled it once so second time I did it as follows - w/o removing the tire (tho I will admit using a mirror to view the bolts via the wheel well first time around was helpful)

1.Remove hose support bracket and position the hose that runs across the top of the engine out of the way.
2. Lay across top of engine (use a folded towel or something for padding) and reach down and cut zip-ties to free wiring(which can be a PitA) and pull plugs from top of sensors. Use a 10mm socket and short extension to remove the 3 mounting bolts and the old unit comes free. Leaks a bit, may wanna keep a rag handy. Toss in junk parts bin.
3. Check new unit for screen/gasket and make sure sensors are screwed in tight, o-rings lightly oiled etc. Clean the mounting location well with a rag and then you just have to feel the bolts back into place to install the new unit. Not hard to do at all after you know where they came from. I'm pretty sure they were all the same length too. Or... not.(watch those as they come out to be sure)
4. Take your time tightening them a little each until you have them snug as necessary. I didnt torque them to spec but you know when they are equally tight enough. Dont overdo it.
5.Plug the sensors back up. You can see the top of the unit fine to do this. I didn't zip-tie anything back because it didnt seem necessary. You can if you are anal about stuff like that but not me. There seemed no danger of contact with anything hot or moving.
6. Put the hose and bracket back in place and *shazayam* its beverage time!

I cleared the codes using the reader and have had no more problems for about 5 months now. I think the dash lights will clear themselves if you don't have a reader to clear them with, based on what folks have said here.

I want to thank all you guys who take the time to share their experiences wrenching on here. Between this issue, transmission fluid change, serpentine belt, and cabin filter swap I have probably saved the better part of a thousand bucks and a 5-gal bucket of headache.

Keep the rubber side down and the radio up.

Squank

whitedog
04-21-2013, 11:36 AM
Hello all. First I need to make a confession. I'm not working on an Element. It's actually an Accord but the engine is the same 2.4. This was the most complete information I found and I thought I would share and hopefully learn a bit more about this.

Buddys car came in with the P2646 code and it would buck and had no power once it was really warmed up. I did some research here and I took out our diagnostic scanner and I looked at the VTC solenoid duty cycle, the VTC Solenoid (On or off), the VTEC oil pressure switch (On or off) and the VTEC switch (On or off). When it was running right, as I was cruising down the road, everything was flat lined, but as soon as I stepped on the throttle, everything that was on, turned off and everything that was off, turned on.

Great, now I had a baseline for normal.

So I finally got it go to failure mode and that is when I saw that EVERYTHING stayed flatline when accelerating. No switches were switching and no solenoids were activating.

So, I replaced the screen (#5 in the diagram everyone references) and I changed the oil and filter and all seems well right now.

It was at that point that I started read more and understanding the whole sytem and I realized that VTC and VTEC are different. VTC = variable timing control and VTEC = something else, (I understand the differences so no need to get into detail) but that brings me to my confusion.

Why did the VTC system shut down? Does that screen feed oil to the VTC system as well as the VTEC system? And if it's just starved for oil, why wouldn't the solenoids even try to activate?

Obviously the screen needed to be replaced and they didn't know how long the oil had been in there though it looked like it had been a long time so it needed to be done as well. So would old oil cause the VTC and the VTEC systems to both shut down?

I am just concerned that - because both systems shut down - there is a deeper problem.

But, I am a Diesel mechanic and not very experienced with this gasoline stuff. I will say that after driving this Accord, I would recommend it to anyone looking for a good first car. The engine is easy to work on and overall it just feels like a solid car.

Thank for any insight you folks can provide.

dogdocla
04-23-2013, 10:30 PM
http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SN/A050300.PDF

I cannot access this document myself, permission denied :(

Can someone send it to me?: steve@homepetdoctor.com

ramblerdan
04-24-2013, 11:39 AM
Welcome, Dogdocla.

Nothing groundbreaking in that document.

Replace VTEC Oil Pressure Switch for DTC P2646, P2647

NOTE: This article applies to ’03–05 Accord L4s, ’03–05 Elements, and ’02–05 CR-Vs.

Got a vehicle in your shop with either of these DTCs?

•DTC P2646 (VTEC oil pressure switch circuit low voltage)

•DTC P2647 (VTEC oil pressure switch circuit high voltage)

Replacing the VTEC oil pressure switch (P/N 37250-PNE-G01, H/C 6737217) usually fixes the problem. If it doesn’t, then press on with normal troubleshooting.

bonstokelement
06-15-2013, 05:05 PM
Hey All I have an 04 EX Auto.165K on the tach. No mods

Recently started having loss in power while driving. Started early this week on the way to work. No extreme condition.

I was behind a slow driver and went to pass. I gave it enough gas to get my tranny to shift into a lower gear. After passing, I began to lose power like my governor kicked in but I was driving 50 and about 4700RPM's. Malfunction indicator light came on. Once I let off the gas, power returned but kept losing power if I gave it enough gas. Now the light is intermittent and I can't pull a code..

I did some searching and there are too many uncertainties. Fuel pump, water in the tank or VTEC pressure switch is what I can suspect from what I read.

Any ideas? I am going to give it an oil change just to be safe since the VTEC issue came about.

Please help!!!

Rick92040
06-15-2013, 05:31 PM
Without the code your just guessing. Leave the code reader connected and go for a drive.

Chewdoggie
06-19-2013, 03:12 PM
Hi again. :/ Has ANYONE had to replace the assembly more than once over the course of ownership? In the last 5 years I have had this sputtering engine problem...the first two times I replaced the whole assembly (see pg 8)...problem solved for about 3000-6000 miles. But I have ZERO confidence in driving the car anywhere except local because the first time it happened I almost got killed by another car on the freeway.

So now, the car started sputtering as I was going up a slight hill this morning. I know this feeling so I pull over and look at the dash...the CEL is on. I literally haven't put more than 2800 miles since the repair last Spring (feb 2012).

Last time the little screen was just clogged, but I had the mechanic replace the entire assembly. So I'm curious if this has been a repetitive problem for anyone else? And secondly, I'm going to try taking the part off to check the screen myself. Do I have to drain the oil first? Obviously I'll do an oil change too...but oil level is right at the top and nice, clean looking. I just don't want to make a bigger mess in the process of trying to save $300.

Kira
07-12-2013, 10:09 AM
Had this problem with the engine going into limp mode, the vsa light on, the ! light on, and the check engine light.

Read through this thread and a few others, looked at some diagrams, and went about fixing the problem.

Started with adding oil, didn't fix it. Then an oil change, still didn't fix it. Cleaned the electrical contacts, still no change. Then removed the #4 assembly, and cleaned the screen--that did it!

The car works again! Went roaring down 495 a few times last night to test it. :)

Thanx for everyone's help!

ramblerdan
07-23-2013, 11:10 AM
Table including Honda-specific codes here (http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/dtc_list.htm).

saginawian
07-25-2013, 12:38 AM
Long time watcher, first time poster. Just wanted to say thanks to all that described the ways to fix this, it saved me a bunch of money finding this thread. I also had the P2646 error, and I think I just fixed it by cleaning the little screen on the VTEC unit itself.

As someone suggested, I decided before I bought anything to take off the VTEC unit and check the screen out. Sure enough, it was almost entirely caked with carbon or grime. Sprayed the gunk out, used a wire brush to get it totally cleaned and simply reinstalled. It took less than an hour, even for a novice like me. I drove it hard for about 15 miles and no more sputtering and finally the light shut off. Even besides the sputtering/stalling issue at higher RPMs that came on suddenly, I notice now that my E has more pick up at higher RPMs, so I wonder if this problem has been building for a long time. I've been known to stretch an oil change, which I think is the problem. My E has 137,000 miles.

I also agree you have to take off the front passenger wheel, but I would also suggest cranking the wheel as far toward the drivers side - to give more room to get up there. The only real problem was the zip ties on the wires. I just had to clip them off VERY carefully, which was hard to do at the angle.

Hopefully that was it, I'll post again if the light returns.

Thanks again!

asparks65
09-03-2013, 03:13 PM
I'm a new member and I just would like to say thanks to each and everyone that's posted here in this thread. The amount of information contained in this thread made fixing my "new to me" element easy as pie! I recently (a month ago) purchased my element from Craigslist ( w/160K...although I was weary). During the trip home it lost power and went into this limp mode so I had that gut punched feeling all the way back home. It threw the 2646 code and with the help of all this valuable info here I replaced the Vtec gasket/screen (why clean it when it's only $4 new?), changed the oil and like 'magic' it's been running like a top ever since... Thank You All So Much !!!!!

anz01
09-08-2013, 04:38 PM
Also a watcher EOC since May 2013 when I bought my E w/116,500 -have all service records-looks and runs like new,gas miles averages 23mpg. But during a rainstorm malfunction light came on & as other posts i've read wouldnt go past 50-60 mph. My great local mech found V-tech pressure sensor ,bank 1 sensor & 1 air fuel ratio sensor shorted & replaced them.Codes were:P2646 & P1157. Drove another 300mi & light on again code P1009 -camshaft stuck in advance/cleared codes & calibrated. He said if comes on again may need to go to dealer for camgear timing chain solenoid - well about 800mi.later & came on today. Will bring back to my mech but afraid of going to a dealer without being armed w/information,and possible cost. Had ford escorts for yrs,never used a dealer got the E to help transport dogs as i volunteer w/rescues & has been great but need reliability.Thank in advance for any info the EOC can give me!

ethansolo
11-12-2013, 02:35 PM
I never had this issue and error code until I was t-boned. After picking up my car from the body shop it started shuttering and showing this error code. The mechanic told me the problem but the insurance is saying they won't cover this because it's "unrelated to the accident". The mechanic told me there is a very slight possiility that maybe some sludge was knocked lose in the accident and caused this issue. I've never had this issue before and I'm curious if anyone knows could this issue be caused by an accident? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you all so much!!!

pjvtec
01-07-2014, 01:51 PM
I had my CEL come yesterday. I limped it to O'Reillys where they retrieved the code for me. Limped it 2 more blocks home. The first place I came was here. I got the oil/filter changed.
It was -14 yesterday. I wasn't going to do it myself.
That seemed to clear it up. CEL went off by itself. I just need to say that the info hear at EOC is top notch. Great job! THANK YOU!

steve 48329
01-08-2014, 12:09 PM
If you are tired of fooling around........as a PM thing I add Seafoam to my oil a week or so before I change oil............twice a year. Before winter I put 2 cans in the gas at the same time to get rid of any water in the tank, and clean the system for the year.

03 E 276k and no major problems

organic
01-10-2014, 09:28 AM
I had my CEL come yesterday. I limped it to O'Reillys where they retrieved the code for me. Limped it 2 more blocks home. The first place I came was here. I got the oil/filter changed.
It was -14 yesterday. I wasn't going to do it myself.
That seemed to clear it up. CEL went off by itself. I just need to say that the info hear at EOC is top notch. Great job! THANK YOU!

it is the screen that is part of the sensor, if you take off the sensor you will see dirt and sand clinging to the screen. i know it's a pain to get off - i took my right wheel off and accessed it from the bottom. the code will keep coming up between oil changes until the screen is cleaned. maybe seafoam could dissolve that sludge if not clean the screen before buying a new sensor.

pjvtec
01-11-2014, 05:09 PM
it is the screen that is part of the sensor, if you take off the sensor you will see dirt and sand clinging to the screen. i know it's a pain to get off - i took my right wheel off and accessed it from the bottom. the code will keep coming up between oil changes until the screen is cleaned. maybe seafoam could dissolve that sludge if not clean the screen before buying a new sensor.
Do I need to hit both of them?

davej77
02-07-2014, 11:53 AM
Fixed my problem with advice from this thread, so I thought I would quickly share a pic and my experience.

Element balked/stuttered at aroud 2,500 rpms
CEL came one
Got the dreaded P2646 code
Changed oil pressure gauge - problem remained
Cleaned solenoid screen (see pic below) - problem remained
Got oil and filter changed - BINGO - Car runs great
CEL stayed on. Will clear that next and hope it remains off

Want to see what a solenoid screen looks like with 203,000 miles on my 2004 Element?

fitz31
02-10-2014, 09:22 PM
Kind of a dumb question I know but... Will I need to drain the oil to replace/clean the VTEC screen? I am pretty sure I will need to drain and replace the oil but, if there is a small chance I won't that would save me $50 for oil x2

samber
02-11-2014, 01:02 PM
2008 Element EX ~110,000 miles

While driving at highway speeds in a hilly region, the VSA, CEL, and ! lights came on at the same time. The engine started limiting at ~2800 RPM. The roads were dry pavement, tires are fine, no traction issues, did not bump VSA button.

We "limped" the car home by not exceeding 2800 RPM. We made a few stops and when we got home the CEL light was off, but the others have remained on through multiple on/drive/off cycles.

It sounds to me like possibly a bad sensor in the VSA system that's causing the engine to limit, and triggering the CEL. There has not been an ABS light, no abnormal braking, not underpowered, engine sounds normal. As long as below 2800 RPM there was no noticeable difference except the lights. Not sure how the "rocker arm actuator stuck on" could be related though. Engine sounds normal, CEL and VSA lights came on at exact same time.

83-1 abs
Engine control module ECM/powertrain control module PCM
relation malfunction
current

P2647 eng
A rocker arm actuator control
system stuck on
bank 1
history

P2647 mod $OE
A rocker arm actuator control
system stuck on
bank 1
confirmed

total errors:
ABS: 1
Trans: 0
Eng: 1
Global: 1

I've done some research and found related problems that can be as simple as a sensor or as bad as a main computer replacement, but I haven't found anyone with the exact same combination of codes.

I'd appreciate any insight prior to bringing this in to avoid spending more than necessary. I've able to work on my own cars, so if just a sensor I'd like the chance to make the fix myself.

Thanks!

nwboson
02-15-2014, 05:09 PM
I know this is an older thread but thought I would post my experience with cutout at 2800 RPM on my 2007 Accord. Super cheap fix - so please read on.

I went to Autozone to have them read my code: it was P2646. Indicates a problem with the Rocker Arm Oiling provided by the VTEC solenoid and VTEC pressure switch.

My oil level was low: I added an extra quart. No help. I reset the error code by disconnecting the battery for 30 seconds. As soon as I went over 3000 RPM for a seconds, the P2646 code would show up again.

I called the local Honda dealer: the VTEC gasket was available for $4, the VTEC oil pressure switch for $85 and the whole VTEC assembly for $125.

So I removed the VTEC assembly. Takes ten minutes: super easy. Only 3 bolts, used a 10mm extended socket with 3/8" ratchet. Tons of room to get in there on a 2007 Accord 4 cylinder.

And there was the culprit. After 85,000 miles the strainer was partially plugged and gummed up. I cleaned the VTEC assembly with brake cleaner. I spent a whopping $4 at the Honda dealer for a new gasket/strainer, reinstalled it all in ten minutes, disconnected the battery again to clear the error code, and all was better.

My (baseless) opinion is that the underlying problem is the factory 'Oil Life' indicator and the Castrol GTX oil I have been using on the 2007 Accord since new. My wife has been getting the oil changed based on the oil life indicator which is typically around 8000 miles. No more of that going forward: back to 3000 mile oil changes and Pennzoil for me. Just my humble opinion, but this is the first time I have ever seen one of my engines gummed up with oil anywhere and this is the first time I have used Castrol GTX for the life of my vehicle. Maybe a coincidence, maybe not, but I'm done with Castrol.

steve 48329
02-16-2014, 05:40 PM
This is why I use Seafoam in the oil a 100-200 miles before I change at least once a year. It cleans all the crap that builds up from all the short trips where the motor wont have time to warm up all the way. It will keep the system clean.

tpj147
04-18-2014, 09:35 PM
so a couple weeks ago, i found a small leak on the back of the motor, took it to a guy that used to work at Honda and said it is the VTEC gasket is leaking and could go another 6 months without fixing it. can i fix the gasket by myself on my next oil change?

steve 48329
04-22-2014, 04:15 AM
Yes, 3 10mm bolts and your done.
There is a utube on this only it is on a crv instead of an E.

RobfromLI
04-24-2014, 10:53 PM
Well... it has been some time since I have been around the EOC...

Thanks to the MiSfItS..
I have ventured back to fix the dreaded 3000RPM Bucking!
Great thread.
I will be cleaning the screen, and replacing items as needed. A decent oil & filter change at the same time.

The E is at 140k, and I'd like to keep her a while longer as she is just about broken in. ;)

I will post my results in a few days.


Rob.

ByStickel
05-16-2014, 12:22 PM
Yesterday, my 2007 fwd 5mt (102K mi) lost power while accelerating. Of course, at approx 3K, the ignition cuts spark for approx 2 seconds, repeating this each time I try to get up up speed and out of traffic.

VSA, CEL (emissions), and '!' lights ablaze on the dash.

oil level good.

I remove the VSA motor fuse (the one that isn't screwed down) and am able to drive normally. No cut-out above 3K. warning lights still on.

Codes read, and I couldn't write down full descriptions because the guy was going too fast: 52-1, 61-6(batt volt), 83-1(ecm), 86-1(control network), u0122(traction control), AND P2647. I figure that most of these codes are related to removing the VSA motor fuse.

I'm willing to clean the filter and change the switch, but what is the connection with VSA? Most people who have the issue don't have the VSA and '!' lights.

Any help would be great.

Spork
05-25-2014, 07:49 PM
First off thanks to all of you for having such an informative and welcoming place to learn (and eventually contribute to).
I recently purchased a 2006 EX-P with 95k miles and absolutely love it, now the bad part, P2646/limp mode!

Code was thrown at 3k rpm/70mph with no issues prior to this. With the help of this forum so far I have done an engine flush and changed the oil, replaced the entire VTEC oil pressure switch assembly (screen was pretty dirty) and thoroughly cleaned the VTC screen as well (new screen en route).

I thought this fixed the problem as the E drove great at any rpm range... until I hit 70mph/3k rpm again.
I've double checked all the connections and I'm now at a loss, so I'm hoping it's something simple that I missed. To say I'm frustrated would be a major understatement, any ideas would be greatly appreciated (my mechanical skills are limited but I'm good with routine maintenance and basic part replacements).

Proost
06-30-2014, 10:18 PM
Hello everyone-

Our beloved 2004 SOP E has a serious problem I hope you can help with. Thanks in advance for your help

Symptoms: One serious hesitation and a CEL light came(first ever). I drove(without issue) it to the auto parts store and checked it with their sensor. The code came up P2646 (rocker arm off or stuck). I took the info and drove about 20 more total miles and then it happened once again. I looked at the some info online and decided it might be VTEC oil pressure switch related as the code diagnostics said. SO I picked up one up and installed it. I checked the connection to it and it looked good. Put dielectric grease in the connection and installed the new one. Went for a test drive and about 7 miles in it started to hesitate terribly anytime I pushed the pedal over 1/3 to 1/2 half the way down regardless of speed. I checked the oil and it was within spec, but it is due for an oil change, I am doing that now. Same code popped up on scanner.

What are the next troubleshooting steps?

Thank you!

2010E
06-30-2014, 10:50 PM
You might have a clogged VTC strainer. How often do you change your oil? Change the oil and oil filter when you clean or replace the strainer to prevent re-clogging it.

#11 in diagram

http://estore.honda.com/honda/parts/view-honda-parts-catalog-detail.asp?m=2003-element-5-dx-2wd-5mt&sn=&b=E++1010&dl=

Bross
06-30-2014, 11:31 PM
It's your oil! Needs to be changed, you are not getting enough pressure at 2800rpms for the vtec to kick in. The E is actually protecting itself from damage, hence you have sometime type of oil leak that is losing enough oil in between changes. Once you change the oil and filter reset battery good to go.

ramblerdan
07-01-2014, 09:22 AM
Welcome, Proost.

A thread-title search (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/search.php) for keyword "p2646" returns this thread, to which your thread has been merged. See above for lots of info.

Proost
07-01-2014, 10:24 AM
Thanks for all of your help!

I am changing the oil right now. Should I clean any possibly offending screens as well while I am at it?

I know about the VTC filter (#11 on the diagram referenced below) and the spool valve filter (#5 on the diagram referenced below). Any others?

http://estore.honda.com/honda/parts/...&b=E++1010&dl=

Thank you!

mini1k
07-01-2014, 12:13 PM
#5 is really important make sure its clean or be replaced. Besides that the VTC solenoid might be going out.

Proost
07-02-2014, 07:46 AM
I cleaned screen #5 (didn't seem to be clogged) and changed the oil and all seems to well again with our E.

Thanks for all your help!

dustmidas
07-24-2014, 08:29 PM
I'm in the same boat as most of the folks here. I've been following this thread for a while. Let me preface this by saying that I have had all the work done to my E at various shops and the dealership. I've changed the ENTIRE assembly TWICE over the course of the last year. I've put the E through a series of short mileage oil changes, changing it every 500 mi or so. I've had a Honda specialty shop put a heavier weight oil(their recommendation)in to raise the oil pressure. None of these things have helped. They did pressure test it and said that I'm getting zero pressure at idle.
Here's maybe some new information about this whole p2646(number of the Beast)fiasco: if I cycle the key while driving(off/on) it immediately clears the problem(not the CEL tho) and I have acceleration again for a few more miles. I haven't seen anyone else mention that.
It's at the dealership right now, and their stumped. They suggest putting a new motor in it. So does the tech at the Honda specialty shop.
Is this reasonable or can I save my girl?

ramblerdan
07-24-2014, 10:26 PM
> Honda specialty shop put a heavier weight oil(their recommendation)in to
> raise the oil pressure.
Not sure that's a good idea overall, but I suspect it would be make the VTEC problem worse.

> I'm getting zero pressure at idle.
Well that's scary. Sounds like you need a new oil pump. First I heard of such a failure. If you wait too long that'll kill an engine, but if you're lucky then just a new pump will fix the problem.

tubelab
08-06-2014, 02:39 PM
I was driving the E hard down I-75 on a hot day in Georgia. I was moving at about 75 MPH when I had alternated between zero throttle and floored maybe 3 times in a few second time period when IT happened. The MIL lit up and I was limited to 2700 RPM. The only I could nurse it up to 65 MPH was with the AC off. This continued for about 600 miles, then power and RPM limiting returned to normal. The MIL remained lit, and I scanned it when I got home.....P2646. I zapped the code with the scanner.

I purchased the usual valve and sensor assembly when I had to order a window regulator. It's been over a year and about 18,000 miles often with a trailer in tow, the problem has not returned. The parts are still in the box just in case it does.

I must assume that extremely aggressive driving can "fake out" the VTEC system. My E is used to haul heavy stuff often. The seats have been removed since I got it and I often tow 600 to 2000 lbs. The oil gets changed when the life indicator gets to 10% and I use Mobil 1 exclusively. Other than that one incident the only issues have been window regulators. The south Florida heat causes the window to stick to the felt, and break the plastic end on the cable when the down button is pressed.

Meanwhile I am about to go change another power window regulator.

jasoncarpenter1
08-11-2014, 01:43 PM
So I changed the VTC filter. What a pain in the ass to get to. As you can see it was destroyed. But sadly it did not help me. I bought my E about three years ago with 159,000 miles on it. Bought it with limp mode, thought I could fix it. Have replaced just about about everything involved with this problem but nothing has worked so far. I have 201,835 miles on it now. I just learn to live with this annoying occurrence. I have read that My ECU might be faulty. I have seen on E-bay I can get another one or have mine reflashed/reprogrammed. My question is do I need dealer to install it or program it? Can I take out myself and reinstall?


http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/Mobile%20Uploads/NCM_0923_zpsccwufnmc.jpg (http://s653.photobucket.com/user/jasoncarpenter1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/NCM_0923_zpsccwufnmc.jpg.html)
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/Mobile%20Uploads/NCM_0924_zpskivtp2jj.jpg (http://s653.photobucket.com/user/jasoncarpenter1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/NCM_0924_zpskivtp2jj.jpg.html)
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/Mobile%20Uploads/NCM_0925_zpsdfyymaao.jpg (http://s653.photobucket.com/user/jasoncarpenter1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/NCM_0925_zpsdfyymaao.jpg.html)
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu258/jasoncarpenter1/Mobile%20Uploads/NCM_0926_zpsuxuea6zj.jpg (http://s653.photobucket.com/user/jasoncarpenter1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/NCM_0926_zpsuxuea6zj.jpg.html)

Bross
08-12-2014, 12:21 AM
Jasoncarpenter1, how often does it occur (limp mode)? What type of oil-weight and filter do you use? How often do you change your oil (milage)? What all have you replaced? Sorry for hundred questions..

jasoncarpenter1
08-12-2014, 11:44 AM
Jasoncarpenter1, how often does it occur (limp mode)? What type of oil-weight and filter do you use? How often do you change your oil (milage)? What all have you replaced? Sorry for hundred questions..

I have replaced the V-TEC screen twice. Once by itself and once with the whole V-TEC assembly. The oil pressure switch and 20+ oil changes. I use 5w 20. The oil and filter are wal-mart brand???? I have done seafoam a few times also. I even removed the oil pan to inspect the oil pump pick up.
Limp mode guaranteed to happen if you drive above 70mph for a few minutes. I just put in neutral and restart, put back in gear and keep driving..

I did see at the Honda dealer a desk matt when I was getting the VTC screen. It was a list of all Honda cars and the recommended oil weight. For Element it showed 5w 20 but recommended 0w 20. Have never seen 0 weight oil?? I guess I can buy from Honda???

Bross
08-12-2014, 11:41 PM
So limp mode occurs let's say the sameday you change your oil? More details on that other then plus 70 mph. Oil change milage wise? Or it's been 20+ in 10k lol. Before you try the honda oil give this a shot-nothing to lose right? Discount battery during process, buy Mobil 1 FULL synthic 10W30 5Qt + fram oil filter. Bout 30$ at Wally World. Drain old oil ect ect, add (4 1/2 quarts) Mobil 1 reconnect battery. If this has solved your issue and you pass two weeks report back for more info. This is the process I did haven't looks back since.

jasoncarpenter1
08-13-2014, 11:06 AM
Thanks for your help/input but I have followed up everything I have done to my E with a trip to the closest freeway. Get up to 70mph then get off next exit, as soon as I get to 40-45mpg. The engine light comes on and "Limp Mode". I even had a Honda dealer tell me it was "Fixed". LMAO...... It was there for an unrelated issue and asked if the Tech could look at it. Told him what I have done to it and what the issue is. Left my E an extra day. They called said E was "Fixed" I ask if he took it on freeway??? Said he did not have to it was fixed. This was a "free" service call so when it went into Limp mode I never went back. They told me if I left it and paid a diagnostic fee that would be applied towards any work done. I really did not want them to do a process of elimination and start replacing parts I have already replaced so I declinded.
I have a newer diagnostic code reader that I use on all my cars/trucks. I am mechanical and have installed several motors and transmissions. Would so like to fix this so I can say "I WON" LOL.
I read somewhere the ECU could be corrupt?? Not sure Thats why I am asking if I have the one in my car reflashed/reprogrammed or buy one off of E-Bay. Do I have to have the dealer install it or program it to work with my E???
The motor has 200,000 + miles on it. I know a rebuild or replacement is in this cars future but don't want to do if the computer is bad.
Any help would be great..........

This is what I have done............. http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3012604&highlight=2646

Bross
08-13-2014, 01:04 PM
I'm telling you 10w30... I didn't want to believe it either (no way different oil can fix this). Best of luck with the reflash or swap...