:( Does anyone else have this problem? When I take off from a stop....the seat rocks back, then when I come to a stop the seat rocks forward!!! It is really annoying!!! I have taken it back to the dealer and they checked it out...nothing loose. We checked out another E in the lot and it did the same thing. The service guy said that the new accords do it also...something about the seat adjustment needing to have 'play'? :(

Please tell me that I am not alone!:mrgreen:


[moderator's note]
TSB A03-032 (http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/files/tsb/a03-032.pdf) Driver's seat rocks 11/03/06

My seats in my Element rock too? Anything to do for that? just the drivers side seat though, not the passengers seat.....
very strange.... I noticed it after they put in my armrest.

-Shoreline Mist Element in New York

My driver's seat rocks also. More like teeters... forward and backwards. It's as though the seat tracks have too much gap or play. The rocking can be easily reproduced by sitting in the back seat behind the driver's seat and lightly pushing and pulling forward and backward on the headrest. It's not much of a rock but the slight knocking noise is annoying. It may not be as noticeable when the seat is adjusted in other positions? I can’t explain why the front passenger seat is different, though. Perhaps a more thorough investigation over the weekend is in order.

My E started having the driver's seat rock a few days ago (car is only 2 weeks old). Took a look at left front side of seat to see what was loose and found that the bolt that holds the seat to the car was loose. I used a 9/16" socket wrench and tightened her up - now nice and solid!!

There is a plastic cover over the bolt that just unclips by pulling it forward then snaps right back on.

The dealer told me that the rocking "feature" was designed into the seats. As it gets worse, I will keep taking it back for them to assess the "feature". What a load!!!

http://www.cycleshopfx.com/guestbook/img/smilies/bsflag.gif

TSB-03032.

Here's the problem: They just reuse the same parts - just like the CRV. It's not a fix, there's nothing new or differently designed. They take off two bushing and a spacer and install the same parts.

The CRV had the exact same problem and they reused that mechanism on the Element.

The TSB says "WORN-BUSHINGS" - now, how in the HELL do bushings get worn in 900 miles?

Honda needs a fix. This is just a temporary patch. I guess they figure you'll get tired of taking it back. I traded in the CRV, but they never came out with anything permanent for it either. The rocking reoccured in the CRV and Honda knows it will here too.

I was told the "fix" was to replace the bushing and spacers - not add any.

Replace them one for one.

That's what I was told, and that's what I thought the TSB referred to.

It says replace "worn" bushings, how can bushings be worn at 900 miles?

I work for Honda; this bulletin affects ALL Elements. Some owners may experience problems, others may not. I've had mine done. I weigh close to 300 lbs, and the problem has not re-occured in mine. The parts for the bulletin are nothing more than bushing/spacers that take up the slack and make it more firm. The same issue has also been found on the Civic. Hope this helps.

I printed out the technical service bulletin from Honda about the rocking seat and took it to the dealer.I asked them why I could get repair information from Honda but they could not.I thought things were settled but then the service advisor told me he was not sure that was going to fix the problem.Now two days later they agreed to try the repair but did not think that it was going to help!Is this is Honda's idea of service ?I still really like the vehicle but this quite annoying!

I printed out the technical service bulletin from Honda about the rocking seat and took it to the dealer.I asked them why I could get repair information from Honda but they could not.I thought things were settled but then the service advisor told me he was not sure that was going to fix the problem.Now two days later they agreed to try the repair but did not think that it was going to help!Is this is Honda's idea of service ?I still really like the vehicle but this quite annoying!

I have a suspicion, however, that unless your dealer is completely hopeless, the work they do will fix, or at least reduce, the problem.

The "...but [he said they] did not think it was going to help" sounds like a cover-your-ass move by the service advisor. In other words, they're implying to you that the first time they looked at the problem, it didn't appears to be one fixable by this method that they obviously know about. They'll try this method but still don't think it'll fix the problem.

Yeah, sure...

And if it doesn't, tell them to fix it again anyway! Under warranty! Because, the seat should be bolted down!

-brendan

I got mine fixed during a service visit (they knew about the TSB and said they fixed it). They did fix it but the fix didn't last but more than 3 months or so. It's starting to rock again. I get the feeling that this is going to be a chronic problem. I don't feel unsafe, but it's one of those annoyances with a new car like the brake clicking when going from reverse to forward and vise versa.

My E has had the rocking seat problem almost since day one. I took it to my local Honda dealer. One of the service guys told me "all of them do it" and then took me around the lot and sat me down in several E's to prove it (they all did it). I told him it was all well and good that all of them do it, but that's not my problem and that's not an acceptable answer. I showed him the TSR (he originally denied there was one, but caved immediately when I produced my hard copy), and then he scheduled me in for the fix.

The fix reduced but didnt eliminate the rocking, and after a month it was as bad as ever. I called and spoke with someone at American Honda, who was cordial and efficient in his followup with the dealer, and I am now waiting for my next appt, when I expect the dealer to "try something different" than just what's called for in the TSR (perhaps an extra bushing spacer or two?) They also suggested they might replace the seat rails and I said fine, do it, but I'm not expecting that to make any difference, since I dont think my seat rails are defective in the first place. I'll post my results here after my next appt.

My 2003's seat is rocking again. I had the bushings replaced about 6 months ago and it still rocks. It's getting progressively worse as the days go by. Anybody else having this issue?

That is the problem with the fix in the TSB. The bushing is replaced with the same part.

Nothing is being corrected, you're just getting a fresh start.

I had a buddy with a CRV and he's gone through 4 sets now.

Honda used the mechanism from the CRV when it had a KNOWN problem.

Bad decision.

My Element is rocking ... again... only about 7,000 KM after being fixed. The result is a lot of discomfort in downtown traffic. For long road cruises, it is fine.

It's one of those small things that ruins the whole experience.

Dave

I took my E in yesterday to have the seat rockin' checked out and they told me that it needed a new seat track assembly. The part number is 81536-scv-a51.
Does this sound right? I want to be sure they get it right.

Hello out there! Thought I'd revive this thread a little:

During my first servicing a couple months ago, I had the TSB performed for the rocking seat issue - and like everyone else, it only remedied the problem for a short while - like a week.

So it's back at the dealer as we speak - and guess what? I'm getting the same damn line - 'All Elements do this'. The service advisor pretty much said that he went out to the lot and tried out three other Elements - and they all have the same seat rocking issue.

I find it unacceptable to have a problem like this - on a Honda - that 'cannot be fixed'. What's the next step folks? Should I file a complaint with Honda directly? What about the ol' Lemon Law approach?

...Rockin' Away....

-D

I work in the parts dept for a dealer.As far as the seat bushings go they are surprisingly thin...As close as the tolerences are there isnt room for a larger bushing.

maybe your Honda mechanic didn't follow the TSB correctly and actually found a better way to correct the problem!

There shouldnt be any change....because its not touched when they disasemble the seat to replace the bushings.

I had the service fix performed on my E for the rocking driver's seat in April 2003 and now I must return to my dealer 20,000 miles later to have it done again. I'm not happy about this especially since the dealer seems to think that this is normal and right (I disagree). 8)

I had my seat fixed in may 2003....All was good till the other night when i noticed after a hard stop that it was rocking again....The bushings that are used are very thin and despite Honda updating them last year i have a feeling this wont be the last time i have to have it fixed.

I had a slight rock and the dealer said don't put it in the all the way postions. Load the seat adjustment a little to minimize rocking. It didn't eliminate it totally but I stopped thinking about it. Therefore it does not bother me anymore. It was the forums that made me look for it. Paranoid.

For those who think it is an issue there is a TSB calling for plastic bushing replacement. However, the plastic bushings are not a good answer. They just get worn down. I think solid brass ones that fit tightly or crush in is a better way. Do I get credit for this?

It's an easy fix, but the problem is that Honda replaces the inadequate plastic bushings with identical inadequate plastic bushings. Heavier drivers, rock 'n rollers, etc., will damage the bushings sooner than average.

Real solution would be improved bushings: bronze or perhaps even roller bearings. Would require drilling the links and track frame, and pressing in the improved bushings. (Future project!)

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/seat_bushings.gif

anyone try performing the work yourself? our element is out of warranty (65k miles) and the three dealerships in the area are not willing to perform the work under "Goodwill".


on a side note, i've contacted honda NA and asked them if they can perhaps do something for us considering that we've owned over 15 hondas and are obviously loyal customers. they pretty much slammed the door in my face and told me to deal with it. this, along with the stupid issues with my integra ITR and S2000 with honda NA have made me decide to never purchase another honda ever again. :(

I got a used Element and the driver seat was rocking a little. I fixed the problem myself. It was just a little tricky to open the 2 plastic covers on both side of the seat. After that, you just tight up the 4 big nuts(2 on each side) really good and that should solve the problem. I am feeling much better when driving the E after the problem was fixed. :grin:

Loose floor mounting bolt(s) or other factors can also produce seat rock, but assuming the cause is failure of the nylon bushings (as per TSB 03-032), replacing the bushings isn't difficult for a confident wrench-turner. You'll need the parts listed in the TSB:

(6) 8/18 mm Nut Washer, P/N 90321-S84-999, H/C 7679780
(6) Seat Link Bushing, P/N 90502-S3N-013, H/C 6690440
(3) Spacer, P/N 90503-S3N-003, H/C 6852578

It sounds like ElementTTF approximated part of Honda's fix by tightening the rear mounting stud nut. Honda recommends adding three spacers to the stud; I can't say whether just tightening the nut is a good fix or not.

Also, be prepared for the possibility of having to do the bushing replacement again in the future, since AFAIK the replacement bushings are no different from the original ones.

Finally, search for previous discussions of this problem for more info.

It sounds like ElementTTF approximated part of Honda's fix by tightening the rear mounting stud nut. Honda recommends adding three spacers to the stud; I can't say whether just tightening the nut is a good fix or not.

I did not realize that Honda recommended this....I had to put spacers under the back of the drivers seat since the seat was rubbing on the floor....I thought it was big-butt disease that caused it.

I did not realize that Honda recommended this....I had to put spacers under the back of the drivers seat since the seat was rubbing on the floor....I thought it was big-butt disease that caused it.
Adding spacers between the rear mounting stud and track frame per TSB 03-032 is unrelated to shimming the bottom-rear mounting brackets on the floor. Your seat could have a problem that merits inspection by the dealer.

I had my seat fixed 3 times now, once at 15 k, 35 k and recently at 65 k. Everytime was done under warranty. More than likely I wiil be putting in another claim for the seat at 100 k since that is when the term ends. It's a known Honda problem I hear.

Check with the honda dealer. Because its a TSB, they mite still cover it... safety issue!! Tim

Check with the honda dealer. Because its a TSB, they mite still cover it... safety issue!!
Agreed. Otherwise, DIY or find a competent wrench-turner to do it. The parts cost is negligible, and the job isn't terribly difficult. The big concern is doing everything right, since safety is at stake. Follow safety precautions (e.g., remove negative cable from battery before undoing air bag sensor connectors; reconnect them before hooking the battery back up) and procedures as outlined in the TSB and service manual (http://www.helminc.com/helm/Result.asp?Style=&Mfg=AHM&Make=AHM&Model=ELEM&Year=2004&Category=1&Keyword=&Module=&mscsid=XH17U7D4DV0W9JARKEFL2M57XKM1FTNA).

Thank you all very much, I really am glad I joined this board.

When I call it into the dealer, do I bring up the "TSB 03-032" code or just describe what it is?

Bring up the TSB number. The more they think you know the better they treat ya. :grin: If they deny it, ask them to call honda and see if they will cover it under their "good will" policy, Tim

Better yet, print it out and hand it to them. There's a link to a copy of the PDF file in the first post of this thread.

Be sure you don't just talk to one of their appointment makers. Mine keyed in it was a "PSP" and the "appointment" was just for them to look at it. 2 hours later I got the E back and was told they had to order the parts.

For the "appointment" to get it fixed, it ended up being just a time to drop it off at 2pm in the afternoon on a Tuesday with me being told the crew that did that type of job was on lunch and were booked up the rest of the day and they would have to keep it overnight!

All of this for a 45 minute job. I declined and haven't been able to get it done yet.

Okay, so I called to confirm my appointment for tommorrow and after getting tossed around to the departments I spoke with a service tech. I wanted to make sure they had the parts so I wouldn't have to take my car in if I didn't have to. They said they didn't have my parts and it would take a week to order them.

I also explained my situation, and how I was told they would fix it with a "goodwill consideration", well the tech told me I was not told the truth and that they aren't allowed to do this "goodwill consideration". Therefore if I wanted it fixed it was going to cost me $255.

Oh and he said it was going to be a 7 hour job, even though I believe the bulletin has it listed as 45 minutes...

Isn't this in regards to a safety issue or is it just something the driver should be aware of?

I don't think it's a safety issue but others might know better.

You are getting screwed. Take the service bulletin in with you to the dealership. Hand it to the service manager and ask him how he can justify a 7 hour, $255 bill for a job the factory says should take 0.7 hour. Then ask for the phone number and address of the district service manager. Be prepared to send the district manager a copy of the service bulletin along with a print-out of this thread.

I think you might hear a different tune.

I knwo this topic has been discussed abotu the bolts being loose but I was wondering... i bought the extended warranty for my E to 100k miles. You think getting that fixed would fall under that warranty?

it should, the 100,000 mile warranty is for bumper to bumper and last I checked the seats are somewhere between the bumpers. :)

Just in case anyone is thinking about doing the TSB repair for the rocking drivers seat themselves I did it this morning in about 1 hour no problem. I ordered the parts from magestic honda for ~ 40.00 per TSB instructions. The disassembly / assembly instructions in the TSB are very clear and everything comes apart and goes back together easily.

The car was still under warranty but rather than waste a morning at the dealers (or maybe 2 if they needed to order parts) I figured I would give it a go.

Did you get the parts free from the dealer under warranty or pay the $40 bucks?

I payed out of my own pocket for the parts. I would much rather spend an hour on the weekend doing the repair myself than wasting half a day at the dealer during the work week.

..now if it was a $400 dollar repair I would certainly take the morning off and get it covered under warranty.

The job was so simple if you can change the oil you can easily do this. Just make sure you have a tourqe wrench handy.

Just had my drivers seat fixed today. Originally took it to the dealer at the end of April for sched. maintence etc., was told then that the seat condition was "normal". after getting the service bulletin for the boards here at eoc, i called again, they ordered the parts and two days later mo more rocking seat. took less then 2-hours. get it done if you need it
thanks everyone
ed

I replaced the bushings in my driver's seat. Total cost was $49 for six bushings, 6 new nuts, and 3 tiny spacers. Man, what a ripoff! :mad: But, the rocking has stopped. :)

Not sure what a dealer would charge. I think the time listed for it is something like 0.7 hours (42 minutes).

Ok.. I found the seat rocking TSB. The problem is, this service bulletin is for the 2003 E. The parts don't even fit the 2005 according to the service bulletin. This is why last time they replaced the whole seat track. He said that most likely Honda incorporated this fix in the 05.

The thing I tried to explain to him is that many of us with 05E's have the same exact symptoms over and over. I'm concerned that this will happen again when I'm out of warranty which is not far away.

He is going to talk to Honda about it on Monday and see if there is some kind of issue with the 05's driver seat.

I'm tempted to go the welding route on the height adjuster.

B

Ok.. I found the seat rocking TSB. The problem is, this service bulletin is for the 2003 E. The parts don't even fit the 2005 according to the service bulletin. This is why last time they replaced the whole seat track. He said that most likely Honda incorporated this fix in the 05.

The thing I tried to explain to him is that many of us with 05E's have the same exact symptoms over and over. I'm concerned that this will happen again when I'm out of warranty which is not far away.

He is going to talk to Honda about it on Monday and see if there is some kind of issue with the 05's driver seat.

I'm tempted to go the welding route on the height adjuster.

B




The parts are identicle between 2003-2005...the seat track has the identical part number.Now i know why some of you guys hate dealers so much.........i would too if i had to deal with some of them.

Geeze... these guys.

Do you happen to have access to the part numbers so I could show this to him? Thanks

MA

Geeze... these guys.

Do you happen to have access to the part numbers so I could show this to him? Thanks

MA


I can do on monday when i get back to work......let me see what i can

find on line after i have my coffee.




In fairless i think differently than other parts guys.....i lokk for stuff like this.....other guys wont take the time.I'll check the TSB on monday.....im possitve that mine list 2003-2005....but ill double check.

Here we go.....


2003
https://www.hondapartsdeals.com/honda_parts_list.php?hp_queried_components=0&hp_series_id=2395&hp_series_model=ELEMENT&hp_series_year=2003&hp_series_door_ext_grade=5DR+EX+ABS&hp_series_transmission=4AT&hp_series_slsareacd=KA&hp_system=G&hp_component=B++4010

2006

https://www.hondapartsdeals.com/honda_parts_list.php?hp_queried_components=0&hp_series_id=2432&hp_series_model=ELEMENT&hp_series_year=2006&hp_series_door_ext_grade=5DR+EX-P+4WD%2CSD+A%2FB&hp_series_transmission=4AT&hp_series_slsareacd=KA&hp_system=G&hp_component=B++4010

http://www.hondapartsnow.com/diagrams/small/front-seat-components-l-465012.png (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/interior_bumper/b__4010~2005~honda~element~5dr_ex_2wd_sd_air_bag~5 mt~ka~front~seat~components.html)
Hondapartsnow

Link (#1 in illo): 81139-S3N-003 (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~link~81139-S3N-003.html)
Bushing (#11): 90502-S3N-013 (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~bush~90502-S3N-013.html)

OE honda part numebers for the bushings are

6 x 90502-S3N-013 BUSHINGS

3 x 90503-S3N-003 SPACERS

6 x 90321-SCV-A11 NUTS

I just had my driver seat fixed today. I was told the extended warrinty did not cover the seat repair. The dealer told me it would cost $168. Ouch. I had them do the repair but thanks to the posted service bulletin I only had to pay .7 hrs instead of the 1.5 hrs they were going to charge me. I informed the service manager that this was a commen problem to his disbeleif until I mentioned this web site. It was funny to see his expresion change when I told him how much information was shared here. Thanks to all who do post information it really does help those of us not in the know.

If anyone has dimensions of the bushings, please let me know. I'd like to try to make some bushings of my own. If not, I suppose I could just stop being lazy and take my seat apart myself. :)
Thanks,
Patrick

^ Or just order a couple. They're only $3 a pop.

replacing the bushings is just repairing a faulty design. Let's come up with a fix.
Agreed! I meant that ElementforLife could use a replacement bushing to get the dimensions, and so avoid having to partially disassemble his seat base just to remove the OEM bushing (which is probably too damaged to be suitable for measuring anyway). Sorry for the confusion.

Correct me if I am wrong but in the service instructions it appears that they may fix it after the warranty. Out of the goodness of their hearts. :-D

I would like to come up with a permanent fix but I am too busy to go searching around for brass bushings.

Thanks for the instructions though. That is very helpful. Unfortunately I cannot do the repair because I do not have any shop towels to set the seat on. :twisted:



I pondered a pemanent fix after i had to have my seat fixed a second time on my old E.I was going to remove the bushings altogether and have the seat fram welded in one position.

I decided to tackle this issue head on this weekend as I had a battery replacement/custom tray project planned. Since the battery would be disconnected, the two went hand in hand, I figured.

What I found was interesting.

First off, my Element is an 03 and has had the infamous rocking seat problem since about day 2. It's an annoyance the gravity of which seems to parallel the kind of day I'm having.

Keep in mind that until last weekend, the seat has never been removed and no correction of any kind performed. The parts in place are those installed at the factory.

Let's begin.

I ordered replacement bushings, P/N 90502-S3N-013 - the very same part number that is referenced in the TSB. They are metal and very feable looking. The dimensions are: ID of 12mm, OD of 13mm, 1mm flange, 2mm deep. They are split to provide a "spring" fit in the link.

38605

I modified some bronze flanged sleeve bearings as the ultimate solution. Nice and beefy, these new bushings were 15mm x 12mm and had a wall thickness of 1.5mm versus the measly 0.5mm. I was prepared to drill the seat links and install these much improved bronze replacements.

38604

When I had the seat out, I was a few things struck me.

First of all, the original bushings are not nylon, but instead are exactly like P/N 90502-S3N-013. They are metal and exactly what you would order today.

Secondly, I checked all four links. None had any play or slop. Everything was solid. No need to utilize the modified sleeve bearings at all.

38607

Looking further, I realized the problem didn't lie with the link bushings at all, something else was the culprit.

The height adjuster connects to the left rear link via a flat plate arm.

38606

The arm slips over an 8mm post on the top of the link and is secured via an E clip. As it turns out, it is this connection that is the cause of the problem. The 8mm hole that was drilled into the arm is no longer round, but slightly ovalled and as a result, all of the play that is present in the assembly originates from this point.

38609
38608

This picture shows the link and bracket articulation. All of the height adjustment starts here.

Realizing that there wasn't much that I could do to correct this newly discovered problem, I put everything back together. Since I had a supply of new OEM split bushings I went ahead and replaced the originals (which were absolutely fine by inspection) and applied lithium grease to the pivot points. Knowing now this course of action was futile, I figured I'd perform my own 'TSB' repair.

Tightening these pivot points provided a temporary fix and simply masked the real issue that is the link.

For a few days, my seat felt fine, but it wasn't long before the rocking was back.

At this point, my plan is to redrill the arm to 10mm and install a 10mm x 8mm bronze bushing. This should be the proper remedy to this problem.

I'll post pictures and an update.

Three months of driving with the rocking seat in my Honda Certified 05 E was enough. I printed the TSB and went to my local dealer with it and my warranty in hand. The service adviser wasn't too happy that I had an official Honda TSB.(Thanks to the EOC!!)
Tried to tell me he hadn't heard of the problem and doubted it would be covered under the 12/12,000 bumper to bumper warranty. Said parts might take a while to get.

Well, they had the parts in stock! So I came back two days later and got it fixed. Warranty covered. Good for now. We will see how long it lasts.

Try your seat height adjuster. Does the seat move up and down easily or is there a lot of resistance?

My theory is that when the repair is performed, the flange nuts that secure the seat links are really torqued down and everything is held in place at the expense of free movement of the links and seat height travel. I think this is only masking the true problem, which is the connector arm between the height adjuster and the rear link.

This therory is supported by the fact that the problem always seems to return despite the TSB fix.

I am curious about the height adjustment function post TSB work.

Please post your impressions.

Thanks.

The seat height adjuster is harder to turn than before the repair, however the seat in my E leaned to the outside and made grinding noises every time I turned a hard right, so the bushings were a definite goner.

I keep my seat at the lowest position, as I am 6'3" tall. Hopefully the"fix" will last a while. Time will tell.

Similar to TSB 03-032, I have a rocking driver seat.

But, through most of the thread, its people with 03's or unspecified.

I have an 05 and its doing it badly. I took this TSB to the dealer I bought the car from. I'm out of warranty (46k miles), but I'd complained about the seat while in warranty.

Well, apparently my complaint never got logged into their system as they show no records of me beyond the original purchase inspection. I've been back at least twice with minor repairs, which they must have just done w/o logging (tightening some bolts, etc). But since it wasn't in there, I hadn't been back (yes, he flat out stated that, completely dismissing my suggestion it hadn't been logged). The manager was flat-out rude about not performing goodwill on cars that aren't serviced there. Given the "servicing" on an Element under 100k miles is oil changes and fluid checks, I refuse to pay dealer prices for that work (especially since the closest dealer to me is 30+ miles away).

When I mentioned others on this board having the issue with non-03's, his response was the normal condecending, "don't believe the idiots on the internet..." Once I got over the shock of his attitude, I asked him if he'd been to this board.

So, a very poor experience to say the least. I'm penalized because I do my own maintenance and because these dealer "idiots" (no offense to those few good ones out there) think that just because an updated TSB for 05 hasn't been released, it couldn't possibly be a problem.

To wrap up the rant (sorry, didn't mean for it to turn into one, but "service" like that infuriates me), if you've had the seat-rocking problem on a year other than on 03, can you please post a response? Maybe if there are enough we can get someone's attention.

Please post the name of this dealership and maybe all of we 18000 "idiots" should send a little email to the general manager!!!!!!!!!

Showcase Honda in Phoenix, AZ.

Don't recall the guy's name tho. Actually, not sure he even gave it to me.

File a case with Honda corporate, it only takes a couple minutes.

I had a seam separate on my '03 that is a full year out of warranty. The dealer said that it was not covered under the extended warranty and even though it was obviously a bad seam and not wear and tear, there was nothing they could do. I filed a case just to make sure that Honda was aware of the problem and did not expect much else. It took a while, but turns out, they worked it out with the service manager and Honda ended up replacing the seat cover for free.
They even picked up the tab for a rental while they had the E. It doesn't hurt to try.

Props to Poway Honda and Jamal with Honda Corporate.
:grin:http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

My local Honda dealer would not do it in good faith. They wanted to much for the parts to fix it myself so I ordered them online. I received the parts, took out my drivers seat, and noticed the 4 main mounting bolts on the bracket connecting the seat to the seat rails were very loose. I applied some lock-tite and boom. Problem fixed....Now I need to see if the online Honda dealer will let me return the parts I bought... :twisted:

Sorry about the quality of the images...i can only edit them in paint off the original pdf.But here is the complete procedure.

I sent Trevor an email and he said he'll have the parts put together as a "kit" for those that want to do this on their own.

I'll be ordering them as my seat was already "fixed" once and I could use to do this again.

Here is the link (http://www.handa-accessories.com/eoc.html) if you want to order the parts to repair this yourself. he also included a link to download the TSB.

I had a request for the parts needed for Honda's Service Bulletin on the drivers seat rocking so I have added them at:
http://www.handa-accessories.com/eoc.html

-Trevor

I'll be tempted on this sooner rather than later. I've got the rocking a little bit, but it's only when I first get in. What all is in it? Some sort of bushings, right?



The parts required for the repair are new bushings , washers and nuts and should be included in the kit.

You can buy the parts needed to fix the rocking seat issue from http://www.handa-accessories.com/eoc.html this page also includes the service bulletin on how to perfrom the repair.

I am thinking about taking mine back to the dealer and having them do it again. I have a feeling they did not do it last time.

It really is annoying. My 03 never rocked liked this.

Peace.

well mine also rocked and it was not the bushings as it turns out it was the bolt that was welded to the seat frame that busted. They spot welded it and no issues they also did the bushings at the same time even though they were ok and I have been happy with the fix.

Who knows.

Greetings all,

I have a beloved 04 element that I was able to decide to buy through everyone's suggestions on here. I have now though grown to be annoyed by the seat which has "give" from the right front side of a couple of inches. IT jerks up and back when I accellerate and it's just a nuisance. IS there a way for me to check and see if the seat is busted, needs to be replaced or if I could just fix it. I know it's hard without seeing it, but I know you guys are the experts... What do you think? I'm not opposed to taking it off or apart to save on buying a new one.

cheers and season's greetings to all from a beloved Element owner.


justyn

It sounds like the seat is not rocking but rather sliding forward-and-back, as if the right seat track were out of alignment and not locking in synch with the left side. Justyn, you might need to remove the small garnish (http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/seat_track_garnish.gif) in front of the track, and the center console (http://media.putfile.com/centerconsole), to get a good look. If you can't see the problem, a mechanic will have to check it for you. I haven't heard of this problem before, though IIRC Justinb845 had a broken stud that caused free play that somewhat like what you have reported.

My 03 had a rocking seat it so I made the dealer fix it before I bought it. They said that it was due to a stripped bolt and the whole "mechanism" had to be replaced.

When i had my 2003 i had to have the seat fixed twice. All was good untill someone jumped in and played with the height adjustment knob. If i had planned on keeping it i was going to take the seat apart and weld the linkage solid to prevent it from rocking again. I have had my 2006 for 2 years now. The seat height has never been changed and i haven't had any problems with the seat rocking.

ok update on seat . I have removed the plastic shroud covering the 4 seat ancor bolts in preperation of removing the drivers seat. Spoke to my wife who primarily drives the car and she showed me a nut that came out of the seat somewhere. i looked but dont see where it goes so guess i will be removing the seat on my day of in anticipation of seeing whats goig on on the underside.

Track lock failure probably unrelated to rocking seat. Service manual, or competent mechanic, strongly recommended.

Ramblerdan How hard is it to renmove the seat? I have read on here to unconect the negative batery cable and not to ever put ignition key in while haveng seat removed or it will reset airbags. What does this mean an acidental airbag deployment or failure of proper airbag operation? I am a do it yourselfer when ever possible. My only concern in doig this myself is the airbags. I think hopfully the ony problem in the seat track lock failure is the loose nut my wife found in the floor. hopfully all i need to do is put it back where it came from to fix the track locking.

Under the seat is an SRS harness connector, which must be unplugged in order to remove the seat from the car. Turning the key to the ignition (II) position while the harness is unplugged will trip the SRS warning light.

The TSB Jurn referenced above says to "disconnect the negative cable from the battery, and wait at least 3 minutes" before unplugging the connectors under the seat. After "each connector is properly plugged in ... reconnect the negative cable to the battery."

Service manual (http://www.helminc.com/helm/Result.asp?Style=&Mfg=AHM&Make=AHM&Model=ELEM&Category=1&Keyword=&Module=&mscsid=XH17U7D4DV0W9JARKEFL2M57XKM1FTNA)

Ok new uypdate...... Just removed drivers seat too find missing nut on front inside link. Bushing is crushed and ripped.I re used crushed bushing and replaced the nut that had fallen off. Seat track would still not lock on inside. so I moved track back and forth and found a small acses hole in the bottom of the track. This hole allowed me to use a wire hock to pull on locking mechanisam inside to get it unstuck from being unlocked. Now the seat lock is working again:). Got seat back in and went for test drive, all is good except it still has the same seat rocking. Im going to get new bushings next and do the seat mod that spar man mentioned in another earier post next.

Ok my story. My seat would rock and I didn't really notice it until I read this thread and thought yea this is bad I need to do something. Bought the $40 repair kit and started swapping out perfectly good hardware. Get to the last bolt and *snap* broke it off :twisted:. Couple of hrs of cussing later I located a junkyard and bought a dirty replacement seat for $85 and swapped out the bracket. Moral of the story. Take off the nuts, clean the threads with brake cleaner, add a drop of threadlock. Dun.

I have the front seat rock. ...Has anyone put the repair kit into a newer Element?

Yes, manyhave had the problem and used the kit.

FWIW....you might just want to try snugging down the nuts (hidden behind the plastic on the sides of the seat base) before doing a full removal, replacement, kit install.

Mine has been good for about a year now after just tightening the nuts. Carefull....don't over tighten/break 'em off!


Will

In response to PhoenixWeasel. I have an 04 EX and had the same "rocking" problem. I purchased a repair kit from Handa and fixed it myself. It took me a couple hours to do the repair including removing and installing the seat. I have no more rocking, which is a good thing. I do not know if many others have done this repair but what I found once I got to the nuts that hold the bushings in was that they were loose. I replaced the bushings and the nuts anyway. Another point well taken that you made was the treatment you received at the dealer when you presented the problem. I experienced basically the same thing when I informed them I was aware of the TSB regarding the "rocking" seat problem. They asked me how I found about it and I told them I read it in one of these threads. The reply was "On the Internet?" I felt like saying "What am I an idiot?" Some of the service writers at the dealerships are in their own little "Honda World" and need to come to the realization that there there are informed consumers out here that can read and absorb information. They don't think TSB's are a matter of public record. Just thought I would let you know you are not the only one to experience the "superior" mentality.

In my particular case I was able to just tighten the four front-link nuts (2 on the right and 2 on the left) to remedy my wobbly seat. So this DIY is geared in that direction. You might get lucky and get by with doing just the same. You may also need to tighten the right and left rear mounting nuts. It really all depends on what you find when you remove the right and left covers. Or you may have to replace the bushings, spacers and/or new nuts. (Honda has issued a Service Bulletin [# 03-032] dealing with this issue that can be found here on the forum. More on this later.)

This is a really easy DYI. All work can be done with the seat left in place. There’s no need to remove it. Gather your tools:

-small flat-head screwdriver (to remove height adjuster knob and clips)
-philips head screwdriver
-12mm socket (to tighten bolts)
-14mm socket (to remove seat belt bolt)

Step One:
-Remove recline cover(left side).
-Start by removing the recline handle. Slightly lift it, to allow clearance, and pull straight out on it (towards the front of the vehicle). If it won’t come off by pulling you can gently tap the back of it with a hammer.
-Next remove the Height Adjuster Knob. Pry off the center cap with your flat-head screwdriver and inside you will see a c-clip. Gently pry up on the c-clip with your screwdriver just enough to clear the shaft but do not completely remove it. Wiggle the knob off.
-Remove the screw just above where the Height Adjuster Knob was.
-Then remove the two small plastic clips. The one on the back is easy to reach. The front one is a little tougher to get to. Pop them out with your flat-head screwdriver.
-Remove the cover by pulling the front of the cover towards you to release the metal clip then up and back to unhook.

Step Two:
-Remove center cover(right side)
*You may, if you wish, remove the center console to gain more wiggle room. Mine was just kinda laying there. So I’m not really sure how the thing is attached.*
-Start by removing the two small plastic clips. They are in the same location as the left side cover only on the right side.
-Pull the front of the cover towards you to release the metal clip and then up and back to unhook.
-Remove the seat belt buckle bolt with your 14mm socket and set aside as best as possible.

Step Three:
-Inspection
-First check the front link mounting nuts. If they are loose, tighten them with your 12mm socket. (22 N-m/16 lb-ft) There will be two on each side. (If you’re lucky, like I was, this will solve the problem and you can start putting things back together.)
-Then check the rear mounting nuts. There is one on each side. If loose, tighten them with your 12mm socket.
-If any of the nuts are not able to be retightened, they are probably stripped and will need to be replaced, along with new bushings and/or spacers. Honda issued a Service Bulletin #03-032 to deal with wobbly/rocking front driver’s seat and blames worn bushings. If you find this to be the case, you can find a qualified mechanic to repair it, or you can order the parts and install yourself. Download the service bulletin to view a schematic and find part numbers. HandA also has a seat repair kit available.
-Do a test sit and note any wobbling. If none, go to step four. If wobbling/rocking remains, read and follow directions in the service bulletin.

Step Four:
-Reinstall the seat belt buckle bolt and tighten (32 N-m/24 lb-ft). And install both covers. Installation of the left cover is probably the hardest part of this whole DYI. Hold the front of the cover up at and out at an angle and insert the back hook into the slot on the recline coil spring. Slightly lift the recline handle around and through the cover and then push in to engage the metal clip. Install the recline handle, plastic clips, screw, knob and cap.

This is my first DYI write-up (my second time posting) and hope you find it useful and not to amateurish. I feel I owe all the great posters here on the EOC forum for all the great information that freely flows here. Thanks. Have a nice day

This is what I did to fix my "rocking" seat too. It was quick and easy, and less complicated than a total washer & hardware replacement as per the TSB. You gotta get to it before the parts are all worn out from rocking though.

Great pics and write up!

Thanks ApriliaGuy! My seat had some minor play to it. I torqued the bolts down (they were very loose) and the problems seems to be fixed. Sure beats $40 for parts and removing the seats.

Thank you.

I finally broke down and ordered the Drivers Seat Rocking Repair Kit from h&a. The shipping was high (IMO) for what amounts to 6 nuts, 6 bushings, and 3 spacers. I don't see what they couldn't just throw them in a USPS envelope and ship it Priority Mail, instead of UPS.

Product Sub Total $28.76
Shipping (3 Day Select) $13.38
Total $42.14
http://handa-accessories.com/eoc.html

Anyway, price-bitching aside, my dad and I spent about an hour today replacing the parts and mounting the seat back in the car. BIG DIFFERENCE! The 'ol E feels like a new car again. The seat-rocking had gotten pretty bad. So bad, that every time I accelerated from a stop or came to a stop, the seat would noticeably rock for and aft. Some of the bushings were completely worn to the point of falling apart. If you have this issue in your E, I HIGHLY recommend doing this repair!

I fixed the drivers seat today, it was an extremely easy fix, and did not take very long.

'04 E, 26k miles (ya rly), had this fixed once under warranty before that expired (due to # years, not # miles).

It's doing it again, with the same clicky goodness that drove me to near-road-rage the first time.

Dealer who originally fixed it wanted $800 post-warranty to repeat the repair. I asked them to escalate to customer-care and reconsider.

Newest offer, $275. Fair? Anyone had similar (or better) experience getting this 'lemony' issue resolved lately?

Buy the parts from H&A and fix it yourself?

http://www.handa-accessories.com/eoc.html



The whole repair shouldn't take more than an hopur to do with basic hand tools.

I wasn't able to find the service manuel directions so I attempted to remove the front seat without them. I thought the hardest part was getting the wire harness disconnected and detached from the seat w/o having to cut the translucent, barbed, plastic clips.

To remove the barbed clips, I pressed on one barb on one side of the clip w/ a flat head screw driver while pulling down w/ a pair of pliers.

Here are a few of pictures I took to document the front seat removal.

Hi

I just received the part kit from H and A for the front seat rocking fix.

The original TSB called for saving the original washers and using the new nuts from P/N 90321-S84-999 H/C 7679780.

The kit was shipped with qty six p/n 90321-SCV-A11 which has the washer integrated with the nut.

Is that the right part numbers for an 04 Element?

Thanks

Why does it ask you to do this at the end of the Service Bulletin?

24. Initialize the driver’s window auto-up feature:
• Make sure the driver’s window is fully closed.
• Push down and hold the window switch until the
window goes all the way down.
• Pull back and hold the window switch until the
window goes all the way up, then hold the switch
for at least 2 more seconds.
25. Do the ECM/PCM idle learn procedure:
• Make sure all electrical items (A/C, audio unit,
defogger, lights, etc.) are off.
• Start the engine, and let it warm up to its normal
operating temperature (the cooling fans cycle
twice).
• Let the engine idle (throttle fully closed with all
electrical items off) for 10 minutes.

Why does it ask you to do this at the end of the Service Bulletin?

24. Initialize the driver’s window auto-up feature:
• Make sure the driver’s window is fully closed.
• Push down and hold the window switch until the
window goes all the way down.
• Pull back and hold the window switch until the
window goes all the way up, then hold the switch
for at least 2 more seconds.
25. Do the ECM/PCM idle learn procedure:
• Make sure all electrical items (A/C, audio unit,
defogger, lights, etc.) are off.
• Start the engine, and let it warm up to its normal
operating temperature (the cooling fans cycle
twice).
• Let the engine idle (throttle fully closed with all
electrical items off) for 10 minutes.


1. Make sure you have the anti-theft code for the
radio, then write down the frequencies for the
preset buttons.
2. Disconnect the negative cable from the battery, and
wait at least 3 minutes before beginning work.


Because in step 2 the battery had to be disconnected and the setting will be lost for the power window auto function.

Why does it ask you to do this at the end of the Service Bulletin?

Since you disconnect the battery at the start the computer has to relearn a few items when you reconnect it.

-Trevor

Hi

I just received the part kit from H and A for the front seat rocking fix.

The original TSB called for saving the original washers and using the new nuts from P/N 90321-S84-999 H/C 7679780.

The kit was shipped with qty six p/n 90321-SCV-A11 which has the washer integrated with the nut.

Is that the right part numbers for an 04 Element?

Thanks

The TSB I have ( lists 2003-2006 models) shows:
Nut With Washer, (six required):
P/N 90321-SCV-A11, H/C 7952138
Seat Link Bushing (six required):
P/N 90502-S3N-013, H/C 6690440
Spacer (three required):
P/N 90503-S3N-003, H/C 6852578

http://www.handa-accessories.com/element/seatrock.pdf

-Trevor

Hi

I just received the part kit from H and A for the front seat rocking fix.

The original TSB called for saving the original washers and using the new nuts from P/N 90321-S84-999 H/C 7679780.

The kit was shipped with qty six p/n 90321-SCV-A11 which has the washer integrated with the nut.

Is that the right part numbers for an 04 Element?

Thanks


The original TSB has been updated a few times.

I have just purchase a used 2004 Element with a rocking seat. The gentleman I purchased it from assured me that it would be a fairly inexpensive repair to get the rocking sorted.

I took it into Honda today who informed me that it would be a $500 part (in Canada) plus labor. Ouch!

So having looked through this forum it seems like a fairly common issue, and one that they MIGHT repair for free by "goodwill". I am taking along SB 03-032 for them to look at to see what they say, my hopes are not up however.

I am thinking of doing this myself, however it seems that the parts listed under "failed parts" in the SB seem to be around the $400 mark anyway (P/N 81536-SCV-A51) - is that correct?

Could someone send me in the direction of the correct parts to do this myself, supposedly it's only some bushings?

I have just purchase a used 2004 Element with a rocking seat. The gentleman I purchased it from assured me that it would be a fairly inexpensive repair to get the rocking sorted.

I took it into Honda today who informed me that it would be a $500 part (in Canada) plus labor. Ouch!

So having looked through this forum it seems like a fairly common issue, and one that they MIGHT repair for free by "goodwill". I am taking along SB 03-032 for them to look at to see what they say, my hopes are not up however.

I am thinking of doing this myself, however it seems that the parts listed under "failed parts" in the SB seem to be around the $400 mark anyway (P/N 81536-SCV-A51) - is that correct?

Could someone send me in the direction of the correct parts to do this myself, supposedly it's only some bushings?



For $500 your dealer priced out a complete seat frame.

The parts required as per the bulletin are as follows:

90321-SCV-A11 X 6
90503-S3N-003 X 3
90502-S3N-013 X 6

If you have to buy the bushing kit you are only looking at about $35.00 Canadian for the parts.

The failed part number is only used by the dealer when they submit a warranty claim.They do not actually order this part.

Does the seat really have to come out to
replace the bushings?????

Does the seat really have to come out to
replace the bushings?????

According to TSB, yup. I get all hot and sweaty just reading the .pdf installation instructions thinking about the job, but compared to paying the dealer the fee for the labor I think a Doctor or Dentist visit would be cheaper.:lol:

Rocking Driver's Seat Repair kit and instructions available here (http://www.handa-accessories.com/elementmaint.html)for $39.06.

I've got a 2005 EX that has developed the rocking chair attitude and needs to be fixed. It doesn't rock when I've got the seat height dialed down lower, but if I crank it all the way up in height - she rocks. So, it's time to buy a kit...

LeadFoot

Mine was rocking for a little while and what I discovered today was the bolts that hold the scissor mechanism for raising/lowering the seat were all loose. Popped the trim panels off around the base of the seat and used a 12mm socket and ratchet to tighten them up. Now no more rocking :-D and if they come loose again I'll be removing the bolts and applying blue Loctite to the threads.

fixed mine today without buying the rip-off 50 dollar bushing / washing kit.

popped off the side covers on each side (have to remove the height adjustment knob first) and tightened everything with a 12mm socket.

i can see where the bushings are worn, but tightening the nut puts enough force on it to stop it from wiggling.

no more wobbles :)

Okay guys My 06 seat just started rocking is this a safety issue or just an annoying issue. Also how much should i expect to have to pay to get this fixed?:?

Your Honda dealer might perform the work for free. Otherwise, the parts are inexpensive (H and A has a kit, as I recall) and a reasonably handy person could do the job himself.

OTOH my seat started rocking in 2004, and I haven't fixed it yet. The problem has never gotten worse since the day the plastic bushings failed.

Okay guys My 06 seat just started rocking is this a safety issue or just an annoying issue. Also how much should i expect to have to pay to get this fixed?:?


I found it more annoying than anything. I have already fixed mine twice. It was ok after the first repair until someone got in and played with the height adjustment knob. If it ever goes agian i am taking the seat out and taking it up to my body shop and having it welded solid.

So, hear me out! This is regarding the well documented rocking seat issue....

Just called Richfield Bloomington Honda in Richfield, Minnesota. I called to asked about TSB 03-032 and see whether or not I would qualify for a 'goodwill' repair on my 2004 Honda Element EX.

The guy told me NO, I would not qualify for a 'goodwill' repair so I proceeded to ask him for a quote on fixing the problem. He put me on hold, etc....

When he came back he told me the cost would be $295.75 for parts and labor. I asked him to itemize that quote. $42.65 for parts and $253.10 for labor. He said the labor is 2 hours. However, I replied 'But, the TSB says that labor is 0.7 hours and your hourly shop rate is $120.00 so where does that other $133.10 come from?' and his response was 'tax and shop supplies!'

NO JOKE -- I wanted to reach through the phone and choke the ^%$*(& out of this guy but I couldn't. So, my instinct was just to hang up! Are they seriously ripping people off like this?

Any ways ---- Should I or shouldn't I is the question? I hate the rocking seat but dayum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! $300 bones!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any comments and or suggestions would be appreciated.

By the way................

AVOID....... Richfield Bloomington Honda!!!!!!!!!!!

The TSB calls for .7 labour when it is done under warranty.

Outside of warranty the dealer can pretty much charge what they want.

The TSB calls for .7 labour when it is done under warranty.

Outside of warranty the dealer can pretty much charge what they want.

Okay, I get that but 2 hours?

As Chris Carter would say 'Comeeee On, Man!'

Okay, I get that but 2 hours?

As Chris Carter would say 'Comeeee On, Man!'

It is a pain in the ass job that no one likes to do.

.7 works out to be 42 minutes. Warranty times are typically unrealistic when compared to the actual time it takes to do the job. 1-1.5 would be a fair price to pay in my opinion.

It is a pain in the ass job that no one likes to do.

.7 works out to be 42 minutes. Warranty times are typically unrealistic when compared to the actual time it takes to do the job. 1-1.5 would be a fiar price to pay in my opinion.

I appreciate ya opinion but it's not fair in my mind. $300 bucks for a problem that only annoys me some of the time. Nah, I can find better use for $300 bucks. Like some SC Wheels.... lOl

I appreciate ya opinion but it's not fair in my mind. $300 bucks for a problem that only annoys me some of the time. Nah, I can find better use for $300 bucks. Like some SC Wheels.... lOl


Blame it on the flat rate system that is used almost universally in the auto repair trade these days. Some jobs work out to the customers advantage and screw the tech....Other time the tech wins and the customer get screwed.


You can always wait untill warmer weather and fix yourself. H&A will be happy to sell you the repair kit.

lol $40 dollar kit with some washers and nuts? what a rip off.

what are the chances of getting this done at a local dealer if my warranty is over?

> what are the chances of getting this done at a local dealer if my
> warranty is over?

On a 2003? I'd say zero.

Think $40 for a hardware kit is expensive? Try the thousand-dollar armrest (http://www.hondapartsnow.com/genuine/honda~armrest~assy~81580-SCV-A51ZB.html).

Going to have to look into a homemade kit to fix my seat, $40 is just stupid.

Going to have to look into a homemade kit to fix my seat, $40 is just stupid.


You can always do what i threatened to do if mine ever go again.


Weld the links solid.

I too have this same problem with my 2004 Element among others. I think that Honda has made a faulty car and will not admit to any of it's problems. I was told it would be $150 to disassemble the seat and then they would determine whether a new seat assembly was required or possibly a whole new seat. The 800 number for Honda acts like you are the only one with the problem when you call them.

Welcome, Jellybean1003.

Honda admitted there was a problem when it released the TSB and subsequently did a lot of free "goodwill" bushing replacements.

You don't need to have this work done at a dealer. Buy the replacement bushings, and have any competent mechanic do the work. However I don't know if you can get it done for much less than $150.

I should have checked out this site a long time ago. The driver's seat in my 2005 Element has been rocking pretty much from the time that I bought it.

I've asked the dealer about it a couple of times over the years, as the rocking appeared to worsen over time, but the dealer didn't really make a big deal about it and never once mentioned the TSB. They did tell me about a year ago that they could replace the bushings to help stop the rocking, but also told me that I need not worry about the rocking seat because it did not represent a safety hazard, and that "it's not like the seat will break loose or anything..."

Well, over the weekend I was driving along and I felt the seat begin to rock more than normal. I checked under the driver's seat and saw a loose bolt under the seat. The dealership has my car now, but the I believe the bolt has a large round head on it and says "RR" on the top followed by a number.

Anyway, the seat is pretty much completely loose from the frame at the inside rear back of the driver's seat. There is not doubt that if I were involved in bad accident, that the seat would definitely completely break free of the frame resulting in severe physical injury or death, so I immediately took it to the dealership this morning to have the bolt reinstalled.

I know that bolt came loose (or it may have event sheared off) due to the constant rocking motion, and mentioned this to the service rep. I just recieved a call back from the dealership and they told me that the entire seat frame and track will need to replaced at a cost of $973!!! Are you kidding me?!! First they fail to fix (or even tell me about) a problem for which a TSB has been issued that could put my life in jeapordy due to the obvious safety hazard that it presents, then they want to charge me almost a thousand dollars to fix it?

Overall, I've been pretty happy with my Element, but this one issue will most likely have me looking elsewhere the next time I go to purchase a car. I'm completely disgusted right now, not just over the ridiculously expensive cost to fix the problem, but also because I believe that Honda has put my life in jeopardy over a problem that they have known to exist in the Element for over 10 years.

Has anyone else had a bolt come completely out of the track or had a bolt shear off like this? thanks for your input

I wish you luck, but do not pay $1k to fix a seat.
I won't pay $30 for the rebuild kit, going to fix my my self as soon as weather breaks.

I wish you luck, but do not pay $1k to fix a seat.
I won't pay $30 for the rebuild kit, going to fix my my self as soon as weather breaks.

I called the service department back and had the guy explain to me again why the entire frame needs to be replaced. He said that the bolt that came loose was welded/rivited to the frame and that there is no way to get the bolt back in without buying an entire new frame. Not sure what to do at this point. Does this sound right to you? Does anyone know what bolt I'm talking about and is it really welded to the frame? Again the bolt that came loose has "RR" followed by a number printed on the large round head of the bolt.

First, let's be sure to separate two different things: The rocking problem described in TSB A03-032 (http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/files/tsb/a03-032.pdf) is caused by the failure of thin nylon bushings and really doesn't affect safety at all. A loose or broken bolt certainly does sound like a safety issue, but has nothing to do with the TSB. It's possible you had a bushing failure, which then masked the loosening/stripping/breakage of a bolt or stud.

E-4-ME, Rocker, Poohbah, and SWD report loose bolts in posts #4 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9763), #64 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=468097), #86 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=733617), and #102 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=881572) of this thread, respectively. Justinb845 reports a broken bolt in post #70 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=517263). EL-MT reports a similar diagnosis to the one your dealer gave in post #73 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=536940).

Without photos or drawings showing exactly what part is broken, it's very hard to answer your question, Crazystix. Can you identify the broken part from the photo posted by Wangofree in post #74 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=286843), from the TSB, or from one of the illustrations below? If the broken or stripped part is a stud (red arrows in illustration at right), there's probably no recourse, as no shop will want the liability for welding a stud back on.

http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/2003-06_seat_base_left.gifhttp://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/spacer20.gifhttp://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/e/eoc/seat_base_studs.gif


The list price of that seat base (Honda p/n 81536-SCV-A51) is $649. If you pick one up from an online vendor (about $470) or a junkyard, and find an independent mechanic to do the work, you can save some money.

Thanks for the reply. I wish that I had taken a photo prior to taking the vehicle to the dealership, but from the diagram that you provided, the bolt that broke loose looks like the one that I circled below. The bolt looks exactly like the one circled with the large round head, but I'm not 100% sure of the location. The location was about 10 inches or so from the back edge of the seat. The seat lifts freely from the track at the location of the missing bolt.

I'm still not sure how this bolt could have been welded to the frame. It didn't look that way when I looked under the seat at the same bolt that was still in place on the side closest to the door. When I get the car back tomorrow, I will take a photo to indicate which bolt broke loose and post it on this website.

Also, I received a call back from the dealership a short time ago and was told that the service manager called Honda Corp and that they have agreed to pay 70% "goodwill assistance" towards the total cost of the repair, so the seat replacement will end up costing me less than $300. This was after calling them and complaining about the cost of the repair and that I was very concerned over the safety issue that this created for me. I'm very happy that it is going to cost closer to $300 than a thousand, but I still don't understand the explanation that the frame has to be completely replaced due to the bolt being welded or rivited to the frame. Nevertheless, I appreciate that the dealership called Honda and that they are willing to work with me on the cost of the repair.

Bottom line is that I am still very concerned over this issue, not just because of the cost to have it fixed, but because I believe this is related to an issue that Honda has been aware of for a long time that should have probably resulted in a recall. The driver's side seat has a manufacturing defect that causes the seat to rock, and it appears to me that over time, this rocking motion resulted in the bolt breaking loose, which could have resulted in serious injury or death in the event of a collision. I have no doubt that if I were in a high speed collision with the seat loose from the frame like it is, that the entire seat would have broken loose from the car's frame. I really want to understand this issue more in order to ensure that I am safe in driving this vehicle, and that this issue will not recur during the life of the car.

I should have also stated in my last post, that when I called the dealership earlier to complain, that the service guy at the dealership told me that if I would have had the bushings replaced 10 months ago when they gave me a estimate of a little over $200 to do so, that the bolt would have never broken. This makes it clear to me that the dealership acknowleges that the intial problem with the seat rocking lead to the failure of the bolt.

However, just like I stated in my initial email, when I last asked about the rocking motion and was told $200 to replace the bushings, I was also told that it really was not a safety issue and that I didn't have to worry about the seat breaking loose. I could have lived with the annoyance of a little rocking motion, but had I known that this might really represent a serious safety issue, I would have had the problem addressed immediately.

> Honda Corp ... agreed to pay 70% "goodwill assistance" towards the
> total cost

Great news!

Looking forward to your update on which part was broken.

> Honda Corp ... agreed to pay 70% "goodwill assistance" towards the
> total cost

Great news!

Looking forward to your update on which part was broken.

Yes, I've generally received excellent customer service from my dealership, so I am very happy that they put in the effort to help get Honda Corp to work with me on this issue. I'm still concerned over the seriousness of it though. Seats should not break loose like that after only 70k miles for no good reason. Hopefully once I post a photo of the location of the broken bolt, it'll become clearer whether or not it broke due to the constant rocking motion inherent in the original seat design.

Yes, I've generally received excellent customer service from my dealership, so I am very happy that they put in the effort to help get Honda Corp to work with me on this issue. I'm still concerned over the seriousness of it though. Seats should not break loose like that after only 70k miles for no good reason. Hopefully once I post a photo of the location of the broken bolt, it'll become clearer whether or not it broke due to the constant rocking motion inherent in the original seat design.

I received my '05 Element back today. I am very happy to report that my dealership worked with Honda on this issue to try and obtain "goodwill assistance", and Honda ended up absorbing over 70% of the cost to replace my seat frame. My portion of the seat frame replacement was less than $200, and I am very happy with Honda and my dealership at the moment due to their willingness to work with me.

I took a photo of the new seat frame where the bolt came out of the old one. I really wish that I had taken a photo of the old frame where the problem ocurred, because the new seat frame mechanism does not appear to look exactly like the old one. I circled on the photo below where the bolt came loose on the old frame. On the new assembly, this looks more like a solid plate as seen in the photo below (this plate moves up and down when adjusting the seat up and down). Again, really wish that I had a photo of the old frame to compare. The location of the photo below is at the rear inside of the driver's seat frame.

So, what is everyone's opinion on where the seat broke loose from the frame? Would the constant rocking motion due to the bad bushings have caused the bolt at this location to fail over time? Either way, a seat should not break loose like this after only 67,000 miles for no good reason. I don't think that my weight would have caused it as I have weighed right at 200 pounds or less over the life of the vehicle. I have to believe that the rocking motion weakened this bolt over time, and that this is why the seat eventually failed. I look forward to reading your replies.

They already threw away the old part?

They already threw away the old part?

No old parts were returned to me. I suppose I should have asked for the old parts.

My seat does it once in a while should i be worried?

Below a photo showing the location where the bolt broke as well as a copy of the diagram that was provided in an ealier post also indicating where the bolt broke.

I took mine apart the other day, all 4 nuts were super loose. I thighten them, and it helped a ton. It's not perfect but worth the savings so far. You don't even have to take the side covers off to torque them down just use a open end wrench.

Has anyone tired without removing the seat?

Has anyone tired without removing the seat?

I tightened mine up real good about 70k miles ago and just yesterday noticed a bit of rock starting to come back. I removed the side covers (easy) & the centerconsole but left the seat in place. My bushings were very worn.

It is well worth a try....figure on 1/2 to 3/4 of an hours TOPS including gathering tools. (10mm socket I think)

i called a local Honda dealer today and told them about my problem with the rocking seats, this moron came on the phone and said "Well sir, of course we can fix that problem, we charge $98.99 for inspection to see just what is wrong with that seat"

i insisted that the seat just had a loose bolt.
he replied with "well, again sir, we will still charge the $98.99 to check the problem, if anything else is wrong other than just a loose bolt, we can schedule you for an appointment for a seat replacement, and if your vehicle is not under warranty, we will charge another $249.99 to replace each seat otherwise the seat is 50% off."

i obviously hung up on the *********, anyone know a good dealer around the Seattle area that will tighten some bolts for free? i hate dealers that just wanna yank money out of my pocket instead of just helping a man out with no cost.

i called a local Honda dealer today and told them about my problem with the rocking seats, this moron came on the phone and said "Well sir, of course we can fix that problem, we charge $98.99 for inspection to see just what is wrong with that seat"

i insisted that the seat just had a loose bolt.
he replied with "well, again sir, we will still charge the $98.99 to check the problem, if anything else is wrong other than just a loose bolt, we can schedule you for an appointment for a seat replacement, and if your vehicle is not under warranty, we will charge another $249.99 to replace each seat otherwise the seat is 50% off."

i obviously hung up on the *********, anyone know a good dealer around the Seattle area that will tighten some bolts for free? i hate dealers that just wanna yank money out of my pocket instead of just helping a man out with no cost.


Good luck getting it done for free.

It is not a 30 second job. The proper repair is to replace the bushings. If you just wan't the bolts It is actually nuts) tightened up you can follow the instructions in the TSB for getting access to tighten them up.

The guys in the shop don't work for free and doing everything for free doesn't pay the bills.

I just re-tighten my my stock bolts and has been good for 8 months now. Took me 15 mins to do myself.

I had a local Honda dealer "look" at my abs light to tell me it was broke, which i knew, cost me $110 for that and it's not fixed and they weren't 100% sure they could fix it.

Just bought a used E 2005 EX GGM. Rocking seat issue, so I thought I could DIY and do the repair myself. I bought all parts from Folsom Lake Honda dealer and took out the drivers side seat. The rocking was coming from the side closet to the emergency brake. I flipped the seat over and at saw that there was a loos bolt. I was excited thinking that all I would need to do is replace the bushing and tighten the nut, but as soon as I put my socket wrench to it, the metal frame piece fell off and now I think I need a replacement seat?:-(

Your thoughts?

Thanks

Hi guys. Glad I found this thread so easily. I've found several references to taking the side plastic off but no instructions except that it's easy once you get the height adjuster off, which I didn't see instructions for. Can someone hook me up on this? Hoping I can fix this on the easy side. Thanks!

> get the height adjuster off

See PDF attached to post #1 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=395) above.

Also pictured (less legibly) in post #65 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=473301) above.

Finally, search term "knob" returns these three relevant posts with illustrations:
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=930864
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=753213
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=889107

my seat rocks, and as I can see on here, i'll keep rocking, So i'm just going to keep rocking out on my rocking seat.

I have had this same problem for years...dealer replaced a set of plastic bushings several times and once replaced the lower seating frame once. I have a 5 speed and also weigh 285,the combination of weight shifting back and forth seems to wear out the bushings each time you shift gears,your body weight shifts front to back...so does getting in and out of the car. I request seat removal and bushing replacement instructions so I can do it myself...can't find any info on that...help would be appreciated...I plan to fabricate new bushings from Delrin or similar material that is tougher than the original crap they used......found cool glass sticker on ebay (YOU JUST GOT PASSED BY A TOASTER)

Welcome, Kwahoti.

I request seat removal and bushing replacement instructions so I can do it myself

See links, three posts up.

machine some bushings out of aluminum. or if your into performance get some poly bushings ;)

now I havent seen the part. but assuming the bushing has an inside and outside surface

you can cut a metal sleeve for both out of correct sized pipe. and fill the gap between them.

with epoxy or like strengthing engine mounts fill with silicon tape one side and pack it in.

just a thought assumint the oem bushing is just a plastic insert.

When i get time at work i will take pics of the actual bushings so you can see how thin they are. Maching a replacement could be next to impossible.

If someone doesn't mind losing the height adjustment they could take the frame out and have it welded solid.



machine some bushings out of aluminum. or if your into performance get some poly bushings ;)

now I havent seen the part. but assuming the bushing has an inside and outside surface

you can cut a metal sleeve for both out of correct sized pipe. and fill the gap between them.

with epoxy or like strengthing engine mounts fill with silicon tape one side and pack it in.

just a thought assumint the oem bushing is just a plastic insert.

I took the driver's seat out at 165k and wrapped each of the rigid plastic "bushings" in electrical tape. I was about to order the kit from either HandA or the parts from Majestic, but I already had the seat out, and no parts... well no more rocking after 10k of driving. Careful not to strip the nuts/bolts as you crank down during reassembly. I managed to strip one.

So i purchased a 2003 honda element and the front seat rocks back and forth. it appears that the seat is securely bolted down, anyone run into this and know a fix before i delve into fixing or replacing it?

Mine does the something. I turned the dial all the way so it sits lowl and level. Once I did that it stopped rocking.

Threads Merged.

See post #1 for the repair procedure.

The parts can be purchased here:

http://tinyurl.com/7hvqxz7

That stinks. I have a 2004 EX

It has the problem. I have to actually pay for this?

That stinks. I have a 2004 EX

It has the problem. I have to actually pay for this?


Since this is only a TSB and not a recall Honda only covered the cost during the applicable warranty period.

Since any warranty has long since expired you are going to have to pay to fix it.

Since this is only a TSB and not a recall Honda only covered the cost during the applicable warranty period.

Since any warranty has long since expired you are going to have to pay to fix it.

Stinks. Thanks for clearing that up. Going to wait for this since I have already du,led enough cash for the first MONTH of owning it.

Will add to my growing list. LOL

Mine's been doing it for a while...glad I finally came back here to look to see if anyone else had it. Was hoping for a quick solution...thanks to all those that posted diagrams, etc. Looks like I have a saturday project. :(

thanks guys, just read this as my new to me Element does this! time to order some parts

I just bought my 03 about a month and a half ago and the drivers seat rocks back and forth. I'm hoping it's not the bushings and maybe it's just that some bolts need to be ightened but I'm not usually that lucky. Taking the seat out is a little outside of my comfort level but I've read through the directions and it seems pretty straight forward.

I have a question, is it possible to just buy the bushings and not buy the washers or nuts and have the repair done correctly?

Welcome, Bbunz.

AFAIK there's nothing special about the washers and nuts. You should be able to source them from any well-stocked hardware store. Not sure about the spacers.

So this afternoon i decided to take a look at the problem as I drive a stick shift E and it does bug me. I kept the seat in place and removed the covers. I found out the problem was that the front two bolts needed to be tightened up...Thats it! tighten up all four bolts and your good to go. Saved 40 bucks! Very happy