Myself and others have talked form time to time about a slim design subwoofer being released from Elemental Designs. It looks like they are almost ready for release:-P

I've attached the link instead of reposting everything here. Enjoy!

http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26967

Where are you looking to install these in the element? I have been looking for a sub install that doesn't block any of the cargo area.

I am patiently holding off to (re) install my system, and possibly get the slimline 10"...I would like to see if it would be possible to make a buildout with the Stock Sub enclosure as a base to the build-out, any preliminary ideas?

I'm just thinking of getting them to replace the subs already in my enclosure. The mounting depth and box requirements make them perfect drop ins to the box I'm already using (see thread link below) I like the subs i'm running now but if I can get considerably more output with the sae box size I'm all for it:grin:

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18768

Whoo-hoo!

I can soooo see these in my next E.

Is the fact that I'm not yet done with the install on my current Element and I'm already thinking about the install in my next Element mean that I have a problem? :twisted:

I am patiently holding off to (re) install my system, and possibly get the slimline 10"...I would like to see if it would be possible to make a buildout with the Stock Sub enclosure as a base to the build-out, any preliminary ideas?


Outpost, any insight on the idea?

I'd do a version of my box. I used an 8" square Kicker woofer. A 10" would flair out more but there should be just enough room room. I'd like to try a cardboard version of the box first but I think it would work. It would certainly be worth a try. My box only .24 cu. ft. but with the larger front baffle and getting rid of the cup holders, you could take that up to closer to .5 cu. ft.

Although why anybody would want to get rid of such glorious cup holders is beyond me. ;-) :razz:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/subbuildoutsequence.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/afterpipingsm.jpg

On the other hand, I have this image of my next E with the entire floor raised up 4 inches, from under the rear seats back to the tailgate. In that raised floor I'd have these subs, amps, distribution, everything except the door speakers. I think that would be hot. The seats could swing up or be fully removed. I'd even have rear half of the box hinged, raising up so I could still get to the spare tire.

That would be just too cool an install. :cool:

How might these ones compare to Pioneers shallow mount subwoofers. Ive already built the enclosure for there new 8 inch between the seats, and one day I wanted one or two 12''s built in to the back wall panels. Either one could cut those plastic panels in half and fiberglass the sub in, or take out the whole plastic panel and build an all new one out of fiberglass. Its been a plan for awhile, I just dont picture ever having the money

Sorry to revive such a relatively dead post. While I was searching around last night on various sound website, and reading some of the hype of the SQ-10 from Elemental Designs, I came up with a few questions. Is it possible to mount a sub (with enough airspace) under the seat (front passenger/driver seat), with perhaps taking out the duct (I don't really need it as I live in Florida), and some other modifications. My concern is what way you have it firing, toward the ceiling, or down firing. I am new to the box-logic/airspace that previals in this area, so bear with me.

You could make the argument about having it firing either way, up or down. Up would be the most enjoyable, in a purely physical way...

...I've got to tell you a story. Years ago we sold the Aura Bass Shaker. You attached it to your car's seat and it shook the seat, simulating bass. It was an especially good answer for a subwoofer in a convertable or any other car where you couldn't build a box. We demo'd it in the store by attaching it to the bottom of a basic wood chair. The customer sat on the chair, the chair vibrated with the music and hopefully the customer bought the Bass Shaker. One day this couple came in. He wanted to look at car audio. She just wanted to complain. My salesman was trying to keep the sale going but all she wanted to do was bitch. She eventually went over and sat on a chair in the corner. She wiggled around a bit. She got comfortable. She stopped complaining. After a few minutes my salesman realized what was happening - the Bass Shaker had been left on. He did the only thing he could do. He turned it up. The guy made a purchase. The woman left with a smile. We had a sale. It was a win-win-win scenario... :D ...

...where if you had it pointed down, it would be slot loaded against the vehicle's floor and you'd get a snappier and maybe deeper bass.

The problem is in either case I don't think you have a tinker's chance in hell of coming up anywhere near a big enough box to do what you want to do. The sub box would be tiny. You need bigger than tiny, especially with how much air is in an Element. The best hidden subwoofer spot remains the spare tire well. Get rid of the spare tire. Join AAA instead. Or, if you are like me (within the next few months I will be adding a 12" sub to my system for the lowest octave, mounting it in the spare tire well), put the spare in a basket on the roof rack.

Outpost, love the story...Showed my girlfriend and she got a kick out of it. Reminds me (somewhat) of the Howard Stern Movie, Private Parts

Reason why I asked was I saw a little bit of talk about an under-the-seat enclosure on the Elemental Designs Forum, http://www.icixsound.com/vb/showthread.php?t=27456 And it got me thinking...if you can put an Amp under, why not a Sub? Wanted to know what the sound-(god)fathers had to say about it.

^ And they are talking about a speaker for under the Xb seat. Maybe it would work, building a sub there in an Element.

You'd have to measure the space. Mock up a box using cardboard. Post on Elemental Designs forum, saying you can fit in a box (say) 3 inches high, 14 inches wide and 11 inches deep. See what they say.

I need to meet these guys. They are only about 3 hours away from me in North Liberty, Iowa.

Don't you need some room between the sub/magnet and the bottom of the box so that it can properly perform? As you know Outpost, I have little/no experience with sub enclosure dynamics, so what do I know.

No, you don't need to leave a space. Practically, you'd leave an 1/8" between the magnet and the back of the box so that the magnet didn't hit the back and cause the box to rattle. Some woofers are also vented through the magnet. You'll notice a screen in the center of the back of the magnet. That's so air can get inside the woofer and cool it down. For a woofer like that, maybe leave 1/2" behind the magnet for air to pass.

Where you do have to leave some space is on the front side, not only for air to be moved by the woofer but for woofer excursion. It could move out from its rest position by as much as an inch. There you'd lose some space.

And enough of this "I don't know nothing" talk, Savage. You're doing just fine, asking all the right questions. In a few months, you'll be coming up with the answers for the newbies on the board, not me. Just keep up what you're doing. :)

Wow, coming from you Outpost, I feel privileged and honored! I think I just broke a tear. Now is this the case (meaning the small space) with all directions in firing (side, up, down, etc). And all types of box types, meaning this is just a general box principle? I had heard before that you need to leave 3" or so. Any knowledge as to why some would say that?

It all gets down to whistling.

It's actually more noticeable with ports. You build a ported woofer with too small a port and the air moving through the port makes a noise. We move so much air with a sub, that air itself can create sound. It sounds like chuff and not surprisingly is called chuffing. I call it whistling. Same difference.

In my previous post, not only do you want to keep the vented woofer's back away from the box for cooling, you want to keep it away so it doesn't create noise. Have air flying out the pole vent into too small of an area and it will make a whistling sound, just like blowing over the top of a pop bottle. Separate the back of a woofer from the box and we won't get whistling.

We got into this through loading a woofer into a car ("loading a woofer" means making the woofer and the car mechanically interact). With your underseat subwoofer, if you were to point the woofer down, putting the box on small feet, you will slot load the woofer to the car. Loading a woofer like this gives you two things. First, by forcing the air moved by the woofer to escape though a small area - the space between the floor and the bottom of the box - the air has only one choice. It speeds up. To get through there it has to go faster. The result is the bass gets snappier. But secondly, it can also get boomy - there's the whistling, in this case at a very low note - so you'd have to try it and see if you like it. If you have the woofer pointing up, there is more air in front of it, plus it's firing into a soft, undulating surface, and you don't have this loading of the woofer. You will generally get a flatter response. But try it both ways. It is a toy, after all.

Let's hit one other thing as long as we're here. Let's answer one of the great mysteries of life. Why do you point the subwoofers toward the back of a car? It always sounds better but why? First, when we point a sub box backward, we load the woofers to the car, not as dramatically as downfiring a woofer mounted on 1/2" feet, but still the air is forced into a small area. It speeds up. It has to. It then moves up into the car, opening up into a much larger space. This two step process, moving the sound through a small opening and then into a much larger space, is how a horn speaker works. This effect is most noticeable in a hatchback, where the back of the car is shaped like a horn. A horn is a mechanical amplifier. It makes your bass louder and this is good. Car subs sound louder and snappier when pointed toward the rear of the car. :)

I just got a link to the new Elemental Designs website in an email and i found this. I didn't actually go back through all the posts to see if this was anything new, but here it is the new slimlines (http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=106)


jp

The price point for the slim 10 is suppose to be around $100. ED says they won't do any direct comparisons to other companies slim speakers but I would imagine the ED sub would be a slightly better driver and probably cheaper than all other companies.

Concerning the distance from the pole piece to the back of the box: I've always tried to keep at least the diameter of the pole from the back. Meaning if your driver has a 2" pole piece, leave 2" of room behind the magnet. Just my "old school" ways of dong things I guess.

^ This is the way by the book. :)

I can't read. :-P

You might be able to get one of these under each seat!
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=5180405.7300&pid=1706
Madisound Speaker Components, Inc. - - NSF8-495-8B 8" Shallow Profile Woofer

On the other hand, I have this image of my next E with the entire floor raised up 4 inches, from under the rear seats back to the tailgate. In that raised floor I'd have these subs, amps, distribution, everything except the door speakers. I think that would be hot. The seats could swing up or be fully removed. I'd even have rear half of the box hinged, raising up so I could still get to the spare tire.

That would be just too cool an install. :cool:

Now there's a cool idea. If the bikes will still fit in there I may try this. If they don't I would raise only the panel over the spare tire and point the bikes backwards so the rear wheel would be in the unraised area (front wheel off). Questions:

1. Heat from amps - is this an issue for all or only for some amps? Would I be able to put a cover over them?

2. Grille for speakers to protect them?

My apoligies if these q's have been answered somewhere else.

Thanks!

Yes Outpost!

You are the thinking man's, man! My MS-EE-previous-A/V-engineer-for-Pink-Floyd-concert-tours, took one look at the back of my car last week and said the exact same thing! Ha!

Below I run numbers based for Elemental Designs (in pink), JL Audio 10W3v3 (Stealthbox - yellow), and my Morel SW10. The elemental Designs mimics my Morel EXACTLY!

Fb = 61 &
F3 = 62

Uncanny...

22164

On the other hand, I have this image of my next E with the entire floor raised up 4 inches, from under the rear seats back to the tailgate. In that raised floor I'd have these subs, amps, distribution, everything except the door speakers. I think that would be hot. The seats could swing up or be fully removed. I'd even have rear half of the box hinged, raising up so I could still get to the spare tire.

That would be just too cool an install. :cool:

the numbers were for sealed enclosure.

Now there's a cool idea. If the bikes will still fit in there I may try this. If they don't I would raise only the panel over the spare tire and point the bikes backwards so the rear wheel would be in the unraised area (front wheel off). Questions:

1. Heat from amps - is this an issue for all or only for some amps? Would I be able to put a cover over them?

2. Grille for speakers to protect them?

My apoligies if these q's have been answered somewhere else.

Thanks!

Both good questions. I would probably use digital amps that run cool but heat is still something you'd have to engineer for. I'd imagine some kind of protective cover with ventilation would be used. Speaker grills would also have to be custom made to allow the air to pass but also allow you to put something heavy on them. It would be an interesting install but that's what would make it a challenge.

SQ10, if you have 5" total depth, you can make a box out of 3/4" MDF, flush mount through the top piece, it won't hit anything.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/elementaldesigns_customtc.php

Proof :)

If you guys have any questions about it specifically, let me know, I'll do my best to answer them for you.

eD - Chris, would you care to introduce yourself? My name is Gregg and I'm the moderator of this forum. I own a hi-fi store in La Crosse, not far from North Liberty, Iowa. You can see Elemental Designs has some fans and users here. :)

Chris Schempp, head of sales at Elemental Designs.

We're actually located in Newton, IA now. We were leasing the location in NL and it just got too small. Bought a 10k sq. ft. warehouse, and bought a CNC machine, moving on up :)

I actually have some family in La Crosse I believe. If they aren't actually there, it's somewhere nearby. My uncle who lives there drove his pickup into a guys trailer...on the road...if you saw that on the news :)

I found this forum due to the fact that quite a few people from here have visited our site/hopped on our live support, figured I'd chime in where I could to help people out.

Since I've seen people from here coming around on more than one occasion, I'd like to extend our forum pricing to you guys here.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=forum+discount

Pretty substantial discounts on everything :)

Chris, pleasure to meet you. And thank you very much for the deal. Those are really sweet prices! :)

I'll have to come down and visit with you this fall. I plan to to spend a day at the Amana Colonies. I've wanted to for years and never have. You're only a hop, skip and a jump away from there.

I bet you do have room in Newton to expand. It's a little flat in that part of Iowa. :) In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you could see your old store from Newton on a clear day. :-P You should also know I think northeastern Iowa is one of the prettiest places in the entire country. Such beautiful, rolling hills.

You won't find me making Iowa jokes. I love Iowa and its people. Iowa is such a great state. :)

OK, just one Iowa joke. I'm legally required to by the state of Minnesota (I actually live in Minnesota, across the river from La Crosse). I'm sorry. I don't want to do this but otherwise I'll go to jail.

What does I-O-W-A stand for?

I Owe the World an Apology.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/028.gif

Welcome to the EOC, Chris. :)

well I got all my electronics ready to go in and I wonder what you guys think about a JL 8W7 in the front
I have had a 10 w7 previously and love the woofer but I just want some input
these other subs look rinky dink for lack of a better term,I need SQ without compromise

You're thinking elemental designs are rinky dink? Well, they may not exactly look like a w7, but my eu-700 is pretty impressive. I'm going to order 2 11kv.2's for my friend's camary this afternoon. I'll let you know what i think of them in a week or two. What are you planning to do with the 8w7? I mean, where exaclty are you going to put it, what enclosure, etc.

Oh, I used to live in Iowa. My dad is from there. Fairfield...It's in Jefferson county. Just thought I should say that.


-jp

Hi Chris,

I've been to your web site and seen the discounts offered and am impressed with, what seems to be, customer service (mentioned on another board), and the install videos for the eDead products including the TekLite.

However, and i'm going to put you on the spot here, i read a rather disturbing review on the http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

Quote: SBR(styrene-butadiene-rubber)/Asphalt Peel & Seal and Jiffy Seal are roofing products that fit in this category. Many people buy them for sound deadening. Of the products I tested, B-Quiet Extreme, Brown Bread, Dynamat Original, eDead v1, eDead v1SE and FatMat are in this group. Many people report great success with one or more of these mats. They are certainly the cheapest option. If you know your car will never be exposed to extreme heat or cold, they may work for you. I'm not suggesting that all of these products have a 100% failure rate under extreme conditions, but I do believe they are risky. Their narrower temperature range also means they will be less effective the farther they get from room temperature. I would not use any of these products in my car.

The author goes on to state explicitly that it is possible that Elemental Designs is just reselling a home based asphalt product.

Can you answer the following questions unequivocally:

1. Please identify for the participants of the Honda Element Owners Club the composition of the following eDead Products (specifically, are they Butyl, asphalt, ruberized asphalt, or butyl/asphalt, or if another combination, please state clearly):
a. eDead v1;
b. eDead v1SE; and
c. eDead v3;

2. Is Elemental Designs buying and reselling the eDead products under its own brand name, or is it a product which you have developed and have manufactured to your specifications;

3. If Elemental Designs is the producer of its line of products, can you state that eDead are ASTM E756 compliant; and

4. Given the catastrophic consequences of a asphaltic failure, what warranties does eDead provide in case of failure?

I've asked tough questions and ask that you read them in the same spirit they were written as you have so graciously offered your services to our group. I'm an audio enthusiast and have invested a significant sum of money in my car audio with more on the way (rainbows by next year). Any failure of an asphalt product in my car would be catastrophic indeed.

Many thanks in advance,
3fish

Chris Schempp, head of sales at Elemental Designs.

We're actually located in Newton, IA now. We were leasing the location in NL and it just got too small. Bought a 10k sq. ft. warehouse, and bought a CNC machine, moving on up :)

I actually have some family in La Crosse I believe. If they aren't actually there, it's somewhere nearby. My uncle who lives there drove his pickup into a guys trailer...on the road...if you saw that on the news :)

I found this forum due to the fact that quite a few people from here have visited our site/hopped on our live support, figured I'd chime in where I could to help people out.

Since I've seen people from here coming around on more than one occasion, I'd like to extend our forum pricing to you guys here.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=forum+discount

Pretty substantial discounts on everything :)

Hi Chris,

I've been to your web site and seen the discounts offered and am impressed with, what seems to be, customer service (mentioned on another board), and the install videos for the eDead products including the TekLite.

However, and i'm going to put you on the spot here, i read a rather disturbing review on the http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

Quote: SBR(styrene-butadiene-rubber)/Asphalt Peel & Seal and Jiffy Seal are roofing products that fit in this category. Many people buy them for sound deadening. Of the products I tested, B-Quiet Extreme, Brown Bread, Dynamat Original, eDead v1, eDead v1SE and FatMat are in this group. Many people report great success with one or more of these mats. They are certainly the cheapest option. If you know your car will never be exposed to extreme heat or cold, they may work for you. I'm not suggesting that all of these products have a 100% failure rate under extreme conditions, but I do believe they are risky. Their narrower temperature range also means they will be less effective the farther they get from room temperature. I would not use any of these products in my car.

The author goes on to state explicitly that it is possible that Elemental Designs is just reselling a home based asphalt product.

Can you answer the following questions unequivocally:

1. Please identify for the participants of the Honda Element Owners Club the composition of the following eDead Products (specifically, are they Butyl, asphalt, ruberized asphalt, or butyl/asphalt, or if another combination, please state clearly):
a. eDead v1;
b. eDead v1SE; and
c. eDead v3;

1a) 45 mil butyl w/ non-asphalt filler
1b) 60 mil butyl w/ non-asphalt filler
1c) Latex based paint. Basically really thick paint.

2. Is Elemental Designs buying and reselling the eDead products under its own brand name, or is it a product which you have developed and have manufactured to your specifications;

None of our eDead products are available anywhere else as anything other than eDead. They're our own.

3. If Elemental Designs is the producer of its line of products, can you state that eDead are ASTM E756 compliant; and

Given the cost of that test and how much it's worthwhile in a car, no, we don't perform it. It's not done in the environment in which the material is used, and most manufacturers honestly don't do that. A lot of people publishing those #'s are just based on #'s Dynamat originally published.


4. Given the catastrophic consequences of a asphaltic failure, what warranties does eDead provide in case of failure?


Should someone experience issues w/ the older products, we take care of them. We've got cars all over the place with eDead in them for several years and they're fine. But should something happen, yeah, we get them some new stuff.

I've asked tough questions and ask that you read them in the same spirit they were written as you have so graciously offered your services to our group. I'm an audio enthusiast and have invested a significant sum of money in my car audio with more on the way (rainbows by next year). Any failure of an asphalt product in my car would be catastrophic indeed.

Many thanks in advance,
3fish

So yeah...basically, there is nothing asphalt about it. The publisher of the sounddeadenershowdown will surely tell you that we changed our products because of him and that his test made us run away with our tail between our legs. This simply isn't true. Butyl based deadening just wasn't something our core market wanted to pay the price for initially. We were able to keep the costs of the butyl product the same as the old rubberized asphalt, this is why we made the change. Just wasn't possible in the past...it was something we were looking into, but our core audience isn't into paying $2+/ft. for a 45 mil dampener.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Chris

1a) 45 mil butyl w/ non-asphalt filler
1b) 60 mil butyl w/ non-asphalt filler
1c) Latex based paint. Basically really thick paint.


None of our eDead products are available anywhere else as anything other than eDead. They're our own.


Given the cost of that test and how much it's worthwhile in a car, no, we don't perform it. It's not done in the environment in which the material is used, and most manufacturers honestly don't do that. A lot of people publishing those #'s are just based on #'s Dynamat originally published.



Should someone experience issues w/ the older products, we take care of them. We've got cars all over the place with eDead in them for several years and they're fine. But should something happen, yeah, we get them some new stuff.


So yeah...basically, there is nothing asphalt about it. The publisher of the sounddeadenershowdown will surely tell you that we changed our products because of him and that his test made us run away with our tail between our legs. This simply isn't true. Butyl based deadening just wasn't something our core market wanted to pay the price for initially. We were able to keep the costs of the butyl product the same as the old rubberized asphalt, this is why we made the change. Just wasn't possible in the past...it was something we were looking into, but our core audience isn't into paying $2+/ft. for a 45 mil dampener.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask.

Chris

Many thanks for the honesty Chris.

I'm really liking these eD guys. They have good stuff, good quality, awesome prices, and I think possibly the best customer service I've ever encountered. I do believe they're going to have my business (as well as my friends... I've already sold 3 of them on eD) for a long time.

-jp

Without sounding like a contestant on the Family Feud, good answer, Chris, good answer. I agree with JP; eD impresses me more daily.

That sound deadener showdown does need to be updated. Original Dynamat is different. eDead is different. The comparison was valid in its day, but today it is about as relevant as the the NHTSA's side impact crash test on a 2003 Element. The car has improved dramatically since then. So has the mat.

Without sounding like a contestant on the Family Feud, good answer, Chris, good answer. I agree with JP; eD impresses me more daily.

That sound deadener showdown does need to be updated. Original Dynamat is different. eDead is different. The comparison was valid in its day, but today it is about as relevant as the the NHTSA's side impact crash test on a 2003 Element. The car has improved dramatically since then. So has the mat.

He actually is redoing the tests. But apparently he claims the new butyl eDead has less heat tolerance than the old asphalt stuff.

Funny thing is we cooked both in an oven after getting our first butyl mat. Asphalt melted into a pile of goo....butyl smelled like burning rubber...at about 500 degrees :)

You're thinking elemental designs are rinky dink? Well, they may not exactly look like a w7, but my eu-700 is pretty impressive. I'm going to order 2 11kv.2's for my friend's camary this afternoon. I'll let you know what i think of them in a week or two. What are you planning to do with the 8w7? I mean, where exaclty are you going to put it, what enclosure, etc.


I was thinkin upfront, not sure yet waiting for the JL guy to call back
I may try the JL STEALTH BOX built for the Element with the W0 and repalce it with the W7

anyone who wants boom and easy install this is the box a luittle pricy I bet but should rock very nicely

I really dont want to intrude on my cargo bay with equipment

I am not familiar with these elemental designs and probably just made a bias remark,I am without a doubt a JL guy or Pioneer premiere

I just think that the best solution for the E is a bass enclosure where Honda put the factory sub. So that means I like the Stealthbox or building one like Gregg did. The eD subs use such a small box I'm thinking that you can build something to replace the factory woofer and use 2 eD SQ10 subs, one on each side of the box facing both the driver's and passenger's ankles. No phase or cancellation issues beyond the crossover point, correct?

Good idea, Gibroni.

Seems like it would have to be some major modifications to fit two SQ-10's as (I believe) each one takes .3 cu ft of airspace (Sealed Box).

Anyone in Iowa?

I'd love to get some hands on time with that box :)

If you could wait till thanksgiving I'd love for you to get some hands on time with my box :) but thanksgiving is several months away. You could buy one on ebay, or from one of the online oem parts dealers, i'm not sure what they all are, but i know several people on here could tell you pretty quickly.

-jp

If you could wait till thanksgiving I'd love for you to get some hands on time with my box :) but thanksgiving is several months away. You could buy one on ebay, or from one of the online oem parts dealers, i'm not sure what they all are, but i know several people on here could tell you pretty quickly.

-jp

Considering the SQ10 won't be out until end of Oct/early Nov...Thanksgiving isn't that bad :)

Well, looks like I'll be up there for thanksgiving with my family. I'll be in fairfield, which is in jefferson county. It looks like its about 2 hours away. If you're serious I'll have to see what i can pull.

-jp

JP - let's make a day of it. If you can make it to Fairfield, then I can make it to Newton. That would be so :cool: . Who knows, maybe I'd even come down and pick you up in Fairfield and we drive to Newton together.

Let's do this! :)

Sounds gravy to me. Now i just gotta look at dates and run this by the fam. We'll see how they take it. Thanksgiving is always a big time of year for that half of the family, but i imagine i could miss a portion of one day. We'll have to see. I'm thinking this could possibly work though. Too bad I won't actually have my e.

-jp

Miss all of a day - Friday morning through Saturday morning. You'll be there on Thursday to celebrate Thanksgiving with the family, right? Then let me pick you up on Friday moring. We'll make the pilgrimage to Newton, hang out there for a while, then go to La Crosse. I'll show you a Mississippi River town. My guest bedroom has a better bed than mine. Wake up on the Mississippi and enjoy a glass of juice while watching the river flow. I'll drive you back to Fairfield Saturday morning. You can then spend Saturday afternoon and evening with the whole famn damily.

As an adult, you're supposed to have interests and friends outside of your family. Your folks expect it. They'll understand.

Not that mine ever would have - oh, no - but yours will.

Grrr...Thanksgiving.

I'll have to check on that one. Totally wasn't thinking that it involves me driving 10 hours away. Depends on what happens w/ the other half though and work.

She usually gets stuck working the holidays.

Chris, it would be a good idea to put a link to eD in your sig. That way if one of us wants to check out your website while browsing here it's just a click away when we see your name. :cool:

Chris, it would be a good idea to put a link to eD in your sig. That way if one of us wants to check out your website while browsing here it's just a click away when we see your name. :cool:

Done and Done.