From a friend... "Parker" is a popular R/C glider mountain in Southern California that requires a bit more of a 4x4 than most of us ever will need for our casual driving.


I think the Element is cool, but be very careful with it off road. A friend of mine who works for American Honda in Torrance has brought a couple of them up to Parker several times and one of those things tried to kill him while descending a steep section of the cut off trail that parallels the main dirt road to the top. With a true 4wd all the wheels tend to work together under braking on steep down hills and even if a wheel does lock up you don't loose control. The traction system on the Element is unable to cope with this situation and when my friend hit the brakes near the top it just slid right off the road. He had to let off the brakes and gas it down the hill while steering back towards the road to save himself. It was a very rough and scary ride. It also won't clime much of a grade in the dirt either and we were never able to get one to the upper pad at Parker. No chance at all of getting one to the flying site or back out at Vincent. Hondas are great and I would buy an Element myself if it had a true 4 WD system with a low range selectable transfer case.

Note: I didn't buy the Element to go offroading, so this doesn't concern me terribly, just wanted to share the info and get responses.

Sounds like a scary experience. I'm not sure how the drivetrain affects the braking on a downhill as your friend describes. When purely engine-braking I suppose the AWD system might affect traction in a downhill perhaps, but when you use the brake pedal, the brakes just do their thing, the drivetrain doesn't do anything specific in response.

Could the ABS have been a factor? Did your friend's E have it? ABS can cause surprising results in offroad conditions. It's why BMW's dual-sport motorcycles allow you to turn it off while on dirt.

It doesn't sound like a 'traction system' problem, except that the Element does not have low range. I figure from experience that 1st gear on an automatic is good for about 20 mph. If it is steeper or rougher, I need to pump the brakes. If the front wheels lock up, no power goes to the rear wheels, and its purely a matter of brakes.

I have a DX without ABS, so I can't say how ABS works on steep dirt hills.

The hill climbing limit is also a matter of lack of low range. Maximum engine power and torque occur at around 4000 rpm, which represents 20+ mph in 1st. That's too fast to give you good control on rough steep grades.

However even if Honda added a low range to the Element (unlikely, since few if any soft-road suvs have it), other things like limited ground clearance and poor articulation will still limit your driving on steep cutoffs. Trails like this seldom have smooth graded surfaces. Spinning wheels and runoff quickly dig ruts and mogules on trails like this.

On the Land Rover Freelander, 'low range' is simulated with a hill-descent control - a variation on ABS that helps you crawl down a hill at 5mph.

paulj

see the most offroading I do is an ocasional gravel road to get to a recreational farm. now, if you want a good suv for a similar price as an element get a wrangler. it's way better for offroading. but, you get 19mpg highway driving.

Sorry but your friend is obviously an idiot for even attempting something like that. A good way to ruin a great vehicle. WTF was he thinking?

If one more ignorant goofus relates a story about the E failing to do some extreme off-road manuever and then says "I'd buy the E IF it had "real mans" 4WD"....... UGHHHHHH!
And this guy supposedly WORKS for "Honda" and borrows (read abuses) vehicles for various tests of his x-treme manhood? Wonder if the eventual buyers of these Hondas are TOLD "an employee" has been "breaking in" their car?
IF this guy really does work for Honda Torrance perhaps someone should tell him what the E was designed for. Perhaps before he "borrows" another hapless "demo" and proceeds to thrash it into junk?
Man, what a great example of Darwin's Law in action - just keep doing stupid stunts off-road in inappropriate vehicles till you finally manage to kill yourself and anyone dumb enogh to get in the car with you.

Here's a page with some pictures of Parker Mountain

http://www.sloperacing.com/sites/Parker.htm
Just to the right of the 'normal flying' spot in the saddle, a road cuts across the slope of the hump. It appears from the smaller pictures, and Google Earth that there is a trail over the hump. This may be the one where he had the problem. There's a short cut futher down hill. Google Earth shows 4 cars parked at the saddle.

paulj

Here are a couple of shots from a drive down Chelan Bluff in central Washington. The road wasn't rough, but was steep enough to require a lot of brakes. And one slope near the top did require higher revs.

I very strongly suspect that this was an ABS issue rather than a lack of locked 4x4. I did a fair amount of loose-surface driving in my 1st-generation Explorer (true transfer-case 4x4), and it was the ABS that got me into trouble, every time. It came to the point where I would pull the main ABS fuse if I was going spend more than a couple of minutes off of paved surfaces. The 4x4 was very helpful in this respect not so much for the powered traction, but for engine braking instead of using the wheel brakes handicapped by the ABS.

The E's lack of true 4x4 wasn't the issue here - it was, in my experience, the ABS, plus a generous dose of "What the *&%$ were you thinking?"

And this guy supposedly WORKS for "Honda" and borrows (read abuses) vehicles for various tests of his x-treme manhood? Wonder if the eventual buyers of these Hondas are TOLD "an employee" has been "breaking in" their car?
IF this guy really does work for Honda Torrance perhaps someone should tell him what the E was designed for. Perhaps before he "borrows" another hapless "demo" and proceeds to thrash it into junk?


Was the original post edited somehwere? Where did I miss the statement that the friend was breaking in a demo car?

Ohh..that wasn't said?

Nice way you have of putting words into peoples mouth :rolleyes:

Was the original post edited somehwere? Where did I miss the statement that the friend was breaking in a demo car?

Ohh..that wasn't said?

Nice way you have of putting words into peoples mouth :rolleyes:
No but I doubt the "friend" owns the couple of E's he has so helpfully brought to drive around in - especially since he states he WORKS at the Honda dealership. And NOWHERE does it state he OWNS any of the vehicles.... just that he "brought" them.
The Quote
" A friend of mine who works for American Honda in Torrance has brought a couple of them up to Parker several times"
Like many dealer employees he is likely driving "dealer" vehicles. No he doesn't STATE that but the post would certainly indicate these are NOT the "friend's" personally owned Elements - if so then why mention he works at a dealership and "has brought a couple"?
Perhaps some people would read it literally to mean that the friend just happens to OWN a couple of different Elements ... OH and just HAPPENS to work for Honda in Torrance ...
MY PERSONAL OPINION (and BS detector) says otherwise based on the info related in the story.

I'm sorry, but you have to be an idiot not to see the ground clearance on an element and not know what it can/cannot do.

The poor clearance clearly rules out some routes, but there are a number of other cases where it isn't so obvious. Clearance is a dynamic thing that varies with the placement of wheels, and flexing of suspension. You even have to take into account (possibly by seat of pants feel) the relative stiffness of front and rear antisway bars. An experienced driver will do more (safely) than a novice.

There have been a number of times where I have turned around because I wasn't sure I could pass without problems. It wasn't that I was sure it was impossible, but rather because I didn't want to take the risk. Sometimes I had to get out and walk the route before deciding. If I knew, for example, the rest of the road was good, I might not have turned back. Or if I had been traveling with another vehicle which could have pulled me out, I might have taken more risks. But most of the time when traveling backroads alone, getting back home is more important than getting to a trailhead or other destination.

The toughest decision comes when I've made it through several tough spots, and then come across something that is a bit iffier. Do I risk this one, or do I turn around and go all the way back?

paulj

I only take my E offroad when I've been drinking heavily too.

I only take my E offroad when I've been drinking heavily too.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

My E is strictly an urban assault vehicle.
Nothing bigger than a speed bump for my FWD.

I love rough roads. can't wait for the first snow

I only take my E offroad when I've been drinking heavily too.
rotflmao:grin:

I bought my E with AWD for the little snow we get here in the winter. Other than that, hopefully I'll never have to drive it on more than grass. :)

That is why I also own a 1977 Ford F250 4x4. It is for the bouncing off trees whilst sliding down steep slopes (can't blame ABS on this truck!:D )

The E is the grocery getter and work vehicle that still gets good fuel economy!

dude, sometimes grocery shopping can be more dangerous than offroading. Full parking lots with crazed people....*shudder*

The poor clearance clearly rules out some routes, but there are a number of other cases where it isn't so obvious. Clearance is a dynamic thing that varies with the placement of wheels, and flexing of suspension. You even have to take into account (possibly by seat of pants feel) the relative stiffness of front and rear antisway bars. An experienced driver will do more (safely) than a novice.

There have been a number of times where I have turned around because I wasn't sure I could pass without problems. It wasn't that I was sure it was impossible, but rather because I didn't want to take the risk. Sometimes I had to get out and walk the route before deciding. If I knew, for example, the rest of the road was good, I might not have turned back. Or if I had been traveling with another vehicle which could have pulled me out, I might have taken more risks. But most of the time when traveling backroads alone, getting back home is more important than getting to a trailhead or other destination.

The toughest decision comes when I've made it through several tough spots, and then come across something that is a bit iffier. Do I risk this one, or do I turn around and go all the way back?

paulj

Looks as though your dog said, "Screw this schit" and jumped out and started walking. I would of done the same. Smart dog.

I only take my E offroad when I've been drinking heavily too.

Git r done!!

I'm sorry, but you have to be an idiot not to see the ground clearance on an element and not know what it can/cannot do.

Jeez....with less than 7 inches of clearance, no one should be doing heavy off-roading in an Element. That is just insane. I can understand hitting a slight rut filled trail to get to a camp spot, but heavy mud and deep rute.......NO WAY !!

If I want to go off-roading, I use my 1996 Mazda B4000 with a lift kit but I need to be careful too. I just paid out over $1800 to have all my brakes redone and a few bent suspension parts replaced. :twisted:

That is why I also own a 1977 Ford F250 4x4. It is for the bouncing off trees whilst sliding down steep slopes (can't blame ABS on this truck!:D )

The E is the grocery getter and work vehicle that still gets good fuel economy!

Amen......:twisted:

I see that you may have a litte RED NECK in ya' ???

IMHO, anyone who believes, or even wishes that our Elements are REAL off-road vehicles is either delusional or on some fantastic drugs. Yes, we have Honda's version of all-wheel-drive, which works OK in snow, and may help during the occasional dirt road excursion. However, our ground clearance is only seven inches, and the lowest point is our PLASTIC gas tank that's located and fully exposed in the MIDDLE of the undercarriage, which is about the WORST location it could possibly be in. One big rock can ruin your whole day.

In addition, our Es lack just about everything that an off-road 4x4 needs, such as: low-range, agressive tires, hill-descent hardware, skid plates, lockers (or a form of positraction) and most importantly, a real 4-wheel-drive system.

I love our E, but we all need to recognize its limitations. Snow & dirt roads, sure, but not rock-crawling or real four-wheeling. Just say no.

I agree completely... the E is fine in light-to-moderate offroading conditions... I was crazy enough to drive mine through a small creek two weekends ago without any incident (don't plan on making it a regular occurance), and even though the E handled it fine, I am not planning on making it a regualr occurance... it was on the way to a mountain we were going hiking at and I didn't want to turn around and drive another hour back home...

That being said the E is not an FJ Cruiser... and that is a good thing... if you are looking for vehicles with all of the offroading gear built in (see previous poster), then get an FJ Cruiser or an Xterra... the E is lighter, better on gas, has better handling, and is much better looking (just a few of many things I could have mentioned on why the E is better than the two abovementioned vehicles). Personally, I'd rather not destroy my car but enjoy it... one of the most important things about offroading (even light-to-moderate) is that you know both your limitations as a driver, and also of your vehicle... that being said, don't try and take your E rock-crawling...

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j242/Demonsport/EOC%20Campout/IMG_1228.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j242/Demonsport/EOC%20Campout/IMG_1227.jpg

.......wasn't the rubicon..... just goes to prove the E can handle more than most people think it could, myself included.

REAL off-road vehicles... a real 4-wheel-drive system... real four-wheeling.

Really? The lady doth protest too much, methinks :)

For me, a real Element owner, real off road travel starts when I step out of the car at the trailhead.

paulj

Hmmm...

I don't consider my E an "off road" vehicle of any type. True it does have a four wheel drive system, but is more suited for snow, or similar surface.

My other hobby is true "off roading." I drive a 1992 Jeep Wrangler. With its skid plates, locking differentials, true transfer case, true low range off road tires and no ABS it can handle a lot of difficult terrain -- as long as it is driven properly. I do not compare the E to it.

They are vastly different vehicles -- with different roles to play.

Lawrence

Obviously, you don't share my opinion. That's ok with me. I should say though, that my opinion is based on 4-wheeling in the mountains of Colorado for the last 20 years in a variety of 4-wheel-drive trucks and SUVs. I've been in situations that scared the pee out of me, but made it through.

There's lots of places here that you can easily get to in an Element, but if you get in over your head, you'll have to get yourself out, 'cause there's likely to be no one who will come rescue you. I can recall seeing lots of jeeps, trucks, etc. at the bottom of gorges where they can't be retrieved.

Once, near Silverton, we came across a guy hiking down a trail carrying a tire & wheel. He got way back in, was way over his head, and got two flats within a couple of minutes. He had already hiked out, got one tire fixed and was heading back to his truck. We gave him a lift until we got to the trail where his truck was. OMG, it wasn't a trail as much as a big pile of sharp rocks. Even though he still had about 1/2 mile to go, I declined to take him the rest of the way. He fully understood, and we felt sorry for him, but we weren't about to repeat his folly.

That's only one of many stories, but I'm sure you get the idea.....

Good luck out there.

I didn't mean to imply that the Element can make it into the same rough areas that a customized Wrangler can (though I suspect a knowledgeable driver could do about as well in an Element as a novice could in a stock Wrangler). But I also suspect that a person would have to be a complete novice to think the Element could be taken rock crawling or mud wallowing.

Periodically we do get people asking about lift kits, full 4x4 mods, and skid plates. I'm one of the first to point out that there is little an owner do to improve an Element's 'off-road' capabilities - with the exception of changing the tires, and adding options for dealing with flats (air compressor, plug kit, full size spare).

Cut tires, punctured gas tanks and oil pans, and broken axles are all potential problems when one travels off-road - regardless of whether the vehicle is stock or customized. And considering that the typical customized 4x4 is based on an old chassis, problems like broken water pumps and cracked distributors seem to be a standard part of trail reports.

paulj

I just would hate to see someone with minimal or no off-road experience attempt to take an "E" where it really was not meant to go. That was the purpose of my original post, although perhaps I came across more strongly than necessary. Whatever.....

Es are wonderful little cars, with lots of potential for light off-road excursions, much like a Subaru. But, IMHO, they are still basically cars, and have significant off-roading limitations if you compare them to a "typical" 4x4 truck/SUV. My sincere hope is that "E" owners that haven't done much off-roading just think twice before attempting to climb over that big rock that's right in front of them, if you know what I mean.

Broken and bent vehicles are no fun, no matter how old they may be.

I may be missing something here, but I was never under the impression that the E was EVER marketed as a 4x4. It's an AWD, great in snow, gravel and light off-road use. If someone wants a 4x4 to go rock crawling or off-roading, then they wouldn't (shouldn't) purchase an E. :-?

I may be missing something here, but I was never under the impression that the E was EVER marketed as a 4x4. It's an AWD, great in snow, gravel and light off-road use. If someone wants a 4x4 to go rock crawling or off-roading, then they wouldn't (shouldn't) purchase an E. :-?

You are correct. My last 4WD vehicle came from the factory with all protective plates underneath for vital areas. The vehicle also hd a couple of inches more road clearance, off-road tires, etc..

What underneath protection is here(?):

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f228/WWCD/ebottom3ux.jpg

Regards,

You are correct. My last 4WD vehicle came from the factory with all protective plates underneath for vital areas. The vehicle also hd a couple of inches more road clearance, off-road tires, etc..

What underneath protection is here(?):

Regards,

I'm intimate with that bar protecting the gas tank as I gouged out some hard dirt going over a hill. Didn't bend it or anything, just put the fear into me though.

There might be a reason why you don't see the Element in Monster Truck racing!

Don't expect Jeep qualities from the E. Don't expect the E to be a Hummer either.
It's a perfect all around/use vehicle! Love it for what it is!:D

Even off road vihicles need help, and cars slip on the pavement!:rolleyes:

There might be a reason why you don't see the Element in Monster Truck racing!

Don't expect Jeep qualities from the E. Don't expect the E to be a Hummer either.
It's a perfect all around/use vehicle! Love it for what it is!:D

Even off road vihicles need help, and cars slip on the pavement!:rolleyes:

Couldn't have said it any better myself... love the E for what it is... while many other vehicles may do one thing well, the E does it all.

That is why I also own a 1977 Ford F250 4x4. It is for the bouncing off trees whilst sliding down steep slopes (can't blame ABS on this truck!:D )

The E is the grocery getter and work vehicle that still gets good fuel economy!

here, here!
I got a F250 4x4 too! but the Element is much better to go to the grocery store...:lol:

Ugh...another thread rises from the dead.

48017

That picture scared the crap out of me!!ahahhahah

That picture scared the crap out of me!!ahahhahah

That's me back in high school. Note the Peter Frampton hair.

whatever happened to bofus? and tooljedi? is kayakin dan out of prision yet??? I need closure people!!

Tooljedi, as I recall, had another child, some issues with the house that needed work, and a grunch of other hobbies. I think once he hit the Copper Wall he opted to pursue a life in the real world. Of course maybe MRS. Tooljedi threatened an appendage if he didn't stop posting here.

I miss him, he was a very nice guy.

Prison!? His last post sez this:

Sandals!?
Sandals are gay.

I'm still here. Just busy living life outside, with no internet access. New job, new home, new kayaks & new moorsiccles...Someone's gotta use all these toys, or they'll turn on ya!
That said, I'm heading out today for a weekend in the No. Ga. Mtns playing with my motorcycle gang. If any of you are up in Suches, stop by and say hi. Tell them you know me. *lol

I wanna go to prison!:razz:

Hmm... I hear mostly negative things about prison. But in keeping with this post, I'm from a Land Rover family, being the only Honda, and having driven Disco's, LR3's and Range's off road as well as my Element, I can say honestly that they perform better. But, let's be real, I would never try the routes or be as aggressive in my Element as I would in a Rover. The Element is a very capable SUV off road when on the right types of roads and with an experienced driver behind the wheel(Not that that's me by any means).