Hi everyone,

It is has been a while since I've posted here, but I thought I'd check in with a dealership report. I'm still quite happy with the construction of my 2005 Element, but I'm very unhappy with Mike Harvey Honda in Burlingame, CA. I'll elaborate below:

As my 30,000 service approached I took out the manual and checked the list of Honda recommended service items. As you might have noticed, it is a pretty short list. So short that I considered doing them myself (I had done the 10K & 20K items at home - except for having the tires rotated at a local service station).

Last week I called Mike Harvey (the dealer that sold me the car) to ask their price for the 30K maintenance - they quoted $359 (supposedly on sale). This was a bit high considering the short list of items, but about what I expected for official Honda dealer service. I was very careful to ask the service rep if the 30K maintenance includes all of Honda's scheduled maintenance per the manual - he was quite emphatic that it does (and then some, supposedly). Okay, $360 is worth it for 'official service', all the items and low hassle.

This morning I drop the car off with Chris at Mike Harvey Honda. He confirms the price and says it will be ready by noon.

At 11AM Chris calls and says they found a few things with the vehicle, and they strongly recommend additional maintenance:


Throttle body cleaning $110
Fuel induction cleaning $100 (presumably he mean't fuel injector cleaning - I supect they just dump a bottle of injector cleaner in the tank)
Rear differential fluid service $100
Pollen filter replacement $120


The first two items were standard scams that I had heard of here, but I had hoped to find a honest dealership.

The rear diff fluid is a 100K item on Honda's schedule - so this also matches with the warning signs of a bad dealership.

The pollen filter replacement was particularly galling because it is a Honda recommended 30K item. That they wanted to charge me for this after confirming they do all of Honda's service manual tasks for $360 was really dishonest. Their cost to replace the two filters is about $20 and five minutes of time to pop out the two plastic clips in the glove compartment. Besides mistating what maintenance they do at 30K, they wanted to charge an extra $120 for this! Simply horrible. At this point Chris said, that I was obligated to pay the $360 for the service, because the other work items had already been performed.

I talked with the service manager about this and said I'd be complaining about this practice to Honda, and he seemed to care less (didn't even want to be cc'ed on the email).

On principle I wasn't going to pay $120 for something which had been promised to me, so I'm now going to need to order two filters from H&A. The five minutes to drop the glove box will be no problem.

I'm a super mellow fellow and I virtually never have cause to complain about service at a commercial establishment, but I think you should be very careful about having Mike Harvey service your vehicle.

I certainly won't be buying my next Honda there either.

I have thrown in the towel on dealer service departments. I was in a Honda dealer on Saturday to pick-up some rear diff fluid, and tried to chat-up the service reps about the 6-speed mod I had just done. Here was a really cool mod to beat all mods, and they couldn't give a flying ****.

Then it dawned on me... I was getting the same "vibe" from these clowns as I do from the smarmy sales droids at a cellphone store or, say, Circuit City or Best Buys. "Service writers" are not there to expedite your genuine service needs, they are salesmen whose job is to strong-arm you into buying "service" you do not need. They are not technicians, they are not gearheads, they don't give a rat's ass about your vehicle or your interest in your vehicle - they are there to do the dealership owner's bidding: to reach into your wallet as much as possible.

I know first-hand that there are a zillion independent Honda shops on the Peninsula. I'd take my business to one of those when you don't feel like getting your hands dirty. Then flip the dealer the virtual bird and go through a broker on your next car purchase.

That's so sad to hear. Needless to say, I never go to the dealership unless I don't have to pay anything (warranty issue, etc.).

Yeah - I was going to give 'em a shot because my car is almost out of warranty. I wanted them to give a last look for things that should be fixed - but I'm definitely going independent (or do it myself) from now on.

I'll also be sending a letter to Honda.

One more thing I just noticed: The oil change reminder they put on the windshield shows the next change due in 3,000 miles. Classic.

Mike QBF hit the nail on the head - it isn't the techs, it's the Service Writers - or at least most of them.
Service writers, like sales people on the showroom floor, are paid on commission - the more work they "sell" the more money they make. That is their job and news flash - dealers make more profit $$$ from the service dept than they do from selling cars it is the cash cow of any successful dealership.
The only way to "deal" with a dealer service dept when getting non-warranty work done is to go in with a list and tell then EXACTLY what you want done. ie- "I would like the oil changed with XYZ oil and ABC filter. I would like the tires rotated. That is all. When may I return to pick up my car?" When they call to tell you what else "needs" to be done politely but firmly say that you will make a "note" but you are following Honda's recommended service intervals and "that" work isn't due for 90k miles or whatever and that anything esle you will take care of yourself - I will get great joy in telling them I will replace my own air filters with OEM ones for $20, thanks. In fact I may change em 1st and then take the E in and see what they say. I will truly enjoy telling them that they OBVIOUSLY didn't check and are telling me a big fat FIB because the filters were replaced 3 days ago BY ME.
You have to assume that the dealership is going to continue to get as much of your hard earned cash as possible - just like they did when you bought your E. You didn't give it to them then, why would you now? And why would you deal with them any differently? And just a reminder.....don't assume that your local Honda approved garage is any different. Until you are sure that they have only YOUR best interests at heart NO CAR REPAIR PLACE CAN BE TRUSTED! They prey on people's ignorance and trust.
Always BUYER BEWARE!

Thanks PunkGeek- Mike Harvey in Burlingame is now OFF my list of dealers to look at when shopping for my 07!

The rear differential fluid often needs to be replaced before 100K. If your car vibrates when you turn slowly, replace it. I replaced mine at 40K. If you do a search for rear differential fluid you will find my experience is not atypical.

Beyond that, they violated my favorite salesman's phrase.

You can kill a calf once. You can fleece a sheep many times.

The rear differential fluid often needs to be replaced before 100K. If your car vibrates when you turn slowly, replace it. I replaced mine at 40K. If you do a search for rear differential fluid you will find my experience is not atypical.


Good to know - thanks. I'll replace this fluid (myself!) at 40K. No vibrations when turning currently.

I would replace the rear diff fluid at 30k along with the trannie fluid. Most car makers have moved away from the extended service lifes for fluid changes. I would flush and replace the brake fluid too. You might as well change the antifreeze too.

I would replace the rear diff fluid at 30k along with the trannie fluid. Most car makers have moved away from the extended service lifes for fluid changes. I would flush and replace the brake fluid too. You might as well change the antifreeze too.

There is no need to do any of what you mentioned until it is actually needed. Not one person on this site has had to change their diff fluid before 40k and certainly nowhere near 30k. Mine began making some noises around 45k and I changed it just before 50k; less than a month later.

As for brake fluid, change it out anywhere between 2 and 3 years. No need to do it more often than that. Antifreeze can be done every 2 -3 years as well. Flushing this all depends on how the antifreeze looks, how contaminated it is and how hot the system runs.

punkgeek, unfortunately your dealer experience is the norm across all makes. They are all in business to make money and not treat their customers right. The service dept and sales dept never work together, they are treated as two seperate entities by the owner and want them to compete to see who can make the most money. They don't care about pissing off current customers, repeat business isn't where the profits are at... new customers are where you make your money in the showroom and scare tactics on unwitting customers is where you make your money in the service dept.

The reason dealers don't care if you complain to Honda Corporate is because all dealers are independent businesses. All a manufacturer can do is give a guideline on how to sell their cars and require the service technicians to be certified and go through their own training. But how they sell service and treat customers is of no concern for most manufacturers unfortunately.

I will strongly suggest if you are shopping for a Honda to stay away from Crown honda in Greensboro NC. After about a week of getting my SOP E I noticed that the drivers door and rear door did not line up on the body line.
:mad: I called the service manager to make an appointment about bringing her back to get this fixed. He told me on the phone that he has never seen this from Honda and douts that it was a honda problem. If I wanted to bring it by then go ahead.
:mad: I took it by and explained to them I had not wreak the car trying to get anything done for free. I just wanted simply fixed or I was going to write Honda to have something done about it that they was refusing to fix it. He said in a huffy voice that they would take a look at it if I could leave it over night. They was not even going to give me a loaner till I asked for one.
:mad: I got it back the next day and a few days later the doors did not line up again. As soon as I noticed that the doors did not line up I drove it back to the dealership. Demanding that it got fix right now today. They told me that they could not fix this since there was no adjustment in this area. I told them either figure out how to fix it or you can get this one back and I will take my money else where. I now have several nice places where they scuffed the paint off the inner hinges for the rear door. They refuse to repaint saying that I damaged the E with in 250 miles of owning the car.
:mad: While I was in the waiting room of getting my E back the last time I heard the service manager talking to one of the ladies there. Telling her that her car she brought in was going to need a new wheel. That the tire would not fit the rim that they just took off. Scams did you say, pocket dwellers !
I am so feed up with this dealer for sure. The last service I had donewas at Vann York Honda in High Point NC. I will say I did not feel like they was trying to bend me over . The 30,000 mile service here is 325.00. I do not need it yet. But you can bet that I will not take it to Crown for anything at all.
:mad:Oh one other thing about Crown was they wanted to do my 30k check up at 750 miles. They said that the car needed it . They even went to the extent to tell me if the service was not done that it will not be under warrnty any longer. FLIP !!!!

Hey, let's be careful here. Larry is right. Service is a profit center. These guys aren't the devil incarnate, just folks trying to make a buck, maybe too zealously, but nothing more. Caveat emptor.

I told a story here in the past of seeing a woman getting shafted on a 40K service by my local dealer, paying around $400 to get her car back. She was so grateful. She thanked them for the good service. The dealer's service shop only sell this stuff because many people like - and even need - to buy it.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/vulcan.gif

There is no need to do any of what you mentioned until it is actually needed. Not one person on this site has had to change their diff fluid before 40k and certainly nowhere near 30k. Mine began making some noises around 45k and I changed it just before 50k; less than a month later.

As for brake fluid, change it out anywhere between 2 and 3 years. No need to do it more often than that. Antifreeze can be done every 2 -3 years as well. Flushing this all depends on how the antifreeze looks, how contaminated it is and how hot the system runs.

punkgeek, unfortunately your dealer experience is the norm across all makes. They are all in business to make money and not treat their customers right. The service dept and sales dept never work together, they are treated as two seperate entities by the owner and want them to compete to see who can make the most money. They don't care about pissing off current customers, repeat business isn't where the profits are at... new customers are where you make your money in the showroom and scare tactics on unwitting customers is where you make your money in the service dept.

The reason dealers don't care if you complain to Honda Corporate is because all dealers are independent businesses. All a manufacturer can do is give a guideline on how to sell their cars and require the service technicians to be certified and go through their own training. But how they sell service and treat customers is of no concern for most manufacturers unfortunately.


Good move waiting for your diff to make noise before changing the fluid. If it is making noises then you suffered unnecessary wear and tear. How did the diff fluid smell when it was finally changed? Brake fluid absorbs water and water leads to corrosion of the brake system and seals. Depending on where you live and the climate you should change your brake fluid every year to three years. Brake performance also degrades as more water is absorbed by the brake fluid. Changing your antifreeze depends on its PH not on how it looks. Many manufactures to include Honda, BMW and Mercedes are finding that their extended life fluids really weren't that extended and their trannies, diffs, radiators are failing after 100k miles or so.
Replacing fluids is cheap compared to reaplcement of the tranny, radiator, master cyclinder or calipers, Larry.

I will gladly "recycle" rear pump fluid early and tranny fluid. I do go to the dealer for these Honda specific fluids, and change them myself at 30,000 miles period. I've owned too many Hondas - Accord, CRV, Civic & now Element - not to take care of them. Peace of mind is what it's all about.

I did take our E in for a brake fluid flush at 46,000, and a brake evaluation. That cost me $137 ! YOWSA! :mad: I haven't used dealer service for 20 years, and this reminds me why I don't. I usually have someone else do brake service, but I was too lazy to get the brake fluid from Honda, etc.

Don't be afraid to get a service manual, buy Honda fluids, get your hands dirty. It's a great feeling to service your own vehicle. :D

I first went check out an E at Mike Harvey in Burlingame. Wanted to test drive but their brand new E won't start. Gotta try jump start 2 Es til they found the one that works!

It's only one block away from my office but I'd never step in that dealer again!

I first went check out an E at Mike Harvey in Burlingame. Wanted to test drive but their brand new E won't start. Gotta try jump start 2 Es til they found the one that works!

It's only one block away from my office but I'd never step in that dealer again!

that really just depends on how long the car is sitting on the lot unused for, its not indicative of any problems other than the battery lost its charge due to inactivity...but the other stuff on here about burlingame would turn me off their dealership too!

for what its worth, here is my experience w/two toyota dealers - i'm getting the new yaris. since its new, there is no touching the price - you're gonna pay msrp. but, i have a trade (the element is going and i'll miss it!). first dealer, we talk, i say i want 15,700 (knowing i'll settle for less obviously) - they come back w/KBB Good - 14,125. yeah, right, ok. then we get to talking about taxes - i didn't realize the full value of the trade went against the new car, so we essentially won't pay taxes on it - at this point i'm just happy about that (of course forgetting that 5 minutes earlier we were talking about getting to 14,500). i then say i want $1K over what i owe - 14,350.00. he takes it to the manager (along with the 'come on help me out' type salesman bits, etc.). comes back with the giant authoritative black marker on the sheet saying $14,175, final, thanks! at this point we figured ok, we're saving on the taxes and these are hard to find, so lets just do it - put a dep. of $300 on one coming in 2 weeks.

after the weekend, we werent feeling good about that whole experience, decided to try another local dealer that does the no haggle thing (can't haggle the car price anyways, so we get to skip that step). they drove the car around, came back, showed us the KBB amount, but also the last 60 days of manheim auctions, and come out with their final price - no haggling - 14,500.00. with taxes saved that comes to 15,350 for the trade in, 2004 AWD Auto 28K miles, not too bad in my book (would've been lucky to beat that by $500 selling privately). beat the other dealer by $325 and did it without a second of going back and forth. so, it may take us a few more weeks, but that is the dealer i'm using. they also give free lifetime oil changes, $250 off your next vehicle and a bunch of other little incentives. very nice experience (it was a walser dealership if you're in the twin cities by the way).

If you signed off prior to the service on an estimated and itemized list, then yes you do have to pay. If they did not give you an estimate and list of to be performed items and you were not signatory to that list, no.

If you signed off prior to the service on an estimated and itemized list, then yes you do have to pay. If they did not give you an estimate and list of to be performed items and you were not signatory to that list, no.

The estimated list said "30,000K service" but no specific mention of the pollen filters (or all other items) at all. The problem is that they told me AFTER they had done the other work items that the pollen filter was not included in 'their 30K' list, though it is in the manual and they had promised that their list had all of Honda's 30K items.

The $360 ain't the end of the world - just wanted to post a warning for others.

I like working on my car (in fact my hobby is building airplanes), but I'm busy with work lately so thought I'd go for 'low hassle.' Oops.

Then you do not owe the charges. A nebulous 30000 mile service isnot enforcable. (Especially from my memory of California law.) You have a right to have expected Honda's actual service list and prices taht were not "Made up" after the fact.

curious if anyone has any recommended shops in the peninsula?

Honda of Serramonte in Colma did my last oil change/ tire rotation. They were nice, and quick-- I called them at 12:30 and asked for a 1 pm appointment- I was out of there by 2. Though the sales guy was clueless about the E when I was wandering through the 07s...:rolleyes:

I bought a 2002 Accord from Anderson Honda (Palo Alto?, somewhere a bit south on the 101). I had the alternator replaced under warranty and they were very nice, very professional, and the car came back fine. I know it's not rocket science, but I'm relieved that they didn't screw anything up. As far as dealers go, I left feeling pretty good about the place. But it's still a dealer.....

Now, if you want to get away from the dealers, check out Kuno's in Redwood City. The guy works on Honda's and Subaru's exclusively. I've taken both kinds there and a number of people have gone to him (on my recommendation) and I've never gotten any negative feedback at all. I think that he's one of those few honest AND competent mechanics.

Just as general information, if anyone is looking for a mechanic you should check out the Car Talk guys website. ( www.cartalk.com ) They have something called the Mechanics Files where people write in about their experiences with local mechanics. That's how I found Kunos. There's no guarantee, but it certainly beats the Yellow Pages.

funny, i ended up finding kuno's on my own, and conveniently enough they are about 50 yards from my work.

[QUOTE=spdrcr5]

As for brake fluid, change it out anywhere between 2 and 3 years. No need to do it more often than that. Antifreeze can be done every 2 -3 years as well. Flushing this all depends on how the antifreeze looks, how contaminated it is and how hot the system runs.

QUOTE]

Yeah, and actually the Honda Manual does say to change brake fluid regardless of years at 30,000 miles at the Honda Owners site. But as far as the rest of it, very very overpriced for what they are doing and some unecessary, but such are capitalistic greed and sales practices of many companies. That is why I myself got out of sales, I felt bad selling 100 dollar cable packages to the elderly and trying to justify why they needed it.

I'm getting the curious vibe that I'm getting blown off at my dealership, as well.

My catalytic converter's forward gasket? Chunks of it are hanging out the side of the converter. The guy at the dealership says "there's nothing wrong". The vehicle hasn't moved so much as an inch every time I take it to the dealership.

I wonder...how can they connect it to a diagnostic machine if they don't even move it into the shop? I'm getting really galled about it. I've considered staying and watching them do the work. They keep telling me, "We'll need about five hours; you should probably just go home and come back later."

They've been honest about what work they do perform, which, frankly, amounts to replacing a light bulb in the dash. I've been pretty disgusted with dealer dishonesty, and now I'm disgusted with dealer laziness.

I'm gonna start buying cars from impound lots or something...

I wonder...how can they connect it to a diagnostic machine if they don't even move it into the shop?


...


About 20 years ago my neighbour bought an 84 Escort.After it was about 2 years old and out of warranty when it started running like crap.He dropped it off at the dealer and they called him at lunch time to tell him he needed a new carb.....He questioned it...but figured he would talk to the service manager when he picked the car up.When he arrived after work the Escort was in the same spot that he parked he.Now he was really getting pissed.

He went in and spoke to the service manager and had him explain why he needed a carb.

He asked the service manager to come out to the car with him.At this point he pointed the the front fender and the letters EFI and asked the service manager how the F could his fuel injected car need a carburator.

Needless to say he never went back to the dealer and lost sales of a new car each for him and his wife every 2 years.

Sounds all too familiar. I was supposed to take the car back in yesterday. I absolutely refuse. The dealership has replaced one thing under warranty, that being a single bulb in my HVAC controls, and they botched that job! I still can't read my controls at night because the stinking outer ring isn't lit!!

I decided today. My car's paid off. It's eventually getting a new engine. To hell with the warranty. It hasn't done squat for me. I'm going to chew into the 6-speed mod. At this point, I'll do anything to get any kind of improvement, including changing how I drive. It's been 2nd gear takeoffs and barely any gas for the last week.

I'm sickened by dealer apathy here. They've lost a customer. Permanently.

Sounds all too familiar. I was supposed to take the car back in yesterday. I absolutely refuse. The dealership has replaced one thing under warranty, that being a single bulb in my HVAC controls, and they botched that job! I still can't read my controls at night because the stinking outer ring isn't lit!!

I decided today. My car's paid off. It's eventually getting a new engine. To hell with the warranty. It hasn't done squat for me. I'm going to chew into the 6-speed mod. At this point, I'll do anything to get any kind of improvement, including changing how I drive. It's been 2nd gear takeoffs and barely any gas for the last week.

I'm sickened by dealer apathy here. They've lost a customer. Permanently.
I know the game all too well.
about 2 years ago, I had a Isuzu Trooper. The same truck as the Acura SLX..
I loved that thing. It sounded like a solid, strong vehicle. Till I started taking it to the Honda Dealership to get some service done.
Ended up taking it to the Isuzu dealer to get a leak fixed, and ended up loosing the Driveshaft in the front driveway... They forgot to torque the connecting bolts on...
And after about 3 grand in repairs after those experiences, I decided on hunting down the Element.
Now, I wouldnt part with her if it meant living in her.
Just remember folks, the majority of service departments, are designed to do repairs on warranty problems. And as an observation, they dont want you being nosey about what they are doing.
Ive been asked to leave the Local Honda dealership, after this last episode with the elements transmission.
Turned out the element had some major work done to her, before I purchased. And they didnt allign the A/T pump correctly, and it had a "Binding" issue afterwards.
Im glad Ive found a nice guy, to do the work on my Honda's. And ive been recommending him to my clients with Acura's, and Honda's. Cause thats ALL he works on... He drives a 15 year old accord, that looks like its new. And that says something about someone that keeps their own vehicle up to standards.