hello there,

we'll be getting our new Element sometime next week. I've been trying to plan out a decent stereo setup for it but I don't know all that much about car audio and the more I search the web I get the feeling there's quite a bit of hype and nonsense and...bogosity out there. so I'm going to ask for help here.

I have a good local stereo shop (http://www.dadselectronics.com/) who I have very positive experiences with in the past (bought my entire home system there as well as an under $400 car setup that did pretty well and moved with me between about 4 cars), but I'm a kook and would like to install myself just for the experience of it. I do like to be able to hear something before I blow a bunch of cash on it, so something the local place carries would be desirable, so I can at least go there and listen to it before I buy (and hopefully buy it there if it isn't *too* much more expensive, I do like them).

budget is in the neighborhood of $1000, the less the better. My listening habits are..probably about 80% metal, 15% classical, 5% talk radio =P by metal I mean the quality, mostly imported, type -- not nu-metal and not metallica. This means a couple of important things -- bass doesn't need to go super deep, but it *does* need to be really tight, fast, & accurate - not the bloaty flubby stuff. And, I really don't want harsh tweeters, they can get very painful on busy music like this. I also don't really want any speakers in the back. every car I listen to music in sounds better with the rear speakers faded out. I really don't think the dog needs his own set of speakers.

I'll give you some of my past experiences with car audio, since I think it might be helpful -
a few years ago I just went to the stereo shop I mentioned before & bought a cd player and speakers that were relatively cheap and sounded good in the store, with no preconcieved notions about brand or anything. I ended up with an Eclipse 5441i and some MB Quart 5.5in components (that's what fit in the car I had at the time) -- I don't remember what model they speakers are, but they aren't espeically high end, i don't think they were any more than $150 or so. The speakers I was pretty content with and the deck sounded fine, but it had a really hard time actually playing a cd. it skipped all the time, worse than anything I've ever had. I had it replaced under warranty 2 or 3 times and eventually the store took it back because all the replacements were the same way (remember I said I liked the store? that's why). then I did some research online and bought a Nakamichi CD-45z on ebay. I liked how that one sounded too and the cd player worked, except I'd always forget the faceplate in the house and have no music at all. eventually I just started leaving it on, and eventually someone broke into my car and stole JUST THE FACEPLATE. wtf? so I got annoyed, went back on ebay, and found something cheap that didn't have a detachable face - a JVC KD-LX1. it was about $60 and sounds ok, I could tell a difference from the Nak, but it wasn't dramatic and most of the time I don't notice it if I'm paying attention to the road and not the stereo, which I should be. I still have it -- been anxiously waiting for the motorized face to die for a few years and it hasn't died yet. I also have a cheapass Jensen deck that came with a free car my friend gave me and I don't even really have any complaints about that one - it doesn't sound horrendous, it even has an aux in unlike my JVC. um, so anyway, the point is: I don't want a detachable face. I do want an aux in, and those decks with the USB ports on the front sound intriguing - so they just play a pen drive full of mp3s? do they actually work?

I've already grabbed a factory EX sub on ebay and this amp (http://www.ikesound.com/product-product_id/2464), I'd like to stay as stealth as possible and I'm hoping something I can fit in the 6.5" will be good enough. I was planning on hooking the little stock sub up to my home system and making a judgement on it -- if it isn't good enough I'll try one of those EU-700s, if *that's* not good enough I'll start thinking about something more involved.

I'm not interested in video/nav. portable units that aren't permanently chained to the car are more interesting to me, as well as being cheaper. I'm also not interested in blasting the crap out of my nieghbors, I just want good sounding music *inside* the car.

so, any thoughts would be appreciated. the local store carries kicker, alpine, pioneer, BA...I guess they dropped eclipse, heh - maybe they got tired of returned CD players =]

since you already have an amp for the sub, here are the rest of components i would recomment

head unit: eclipse 8445
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3934

sub: jl audio 8w3v2 or CDT 6"
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=2075 or http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=4850

2 channel amp: elemental designs NINe.2
http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=45

components: CDT EF-61FG
http://www.woofersetc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&Product_ID=3341

these components are within your budget but you can always shop around

You've got to go listen. Go to your shop, take some cd's and/or MP3 player. There are enough differences in components that you and I or the other guy that posted will hear differences, goood or bad. Listen, plan, buy, install, then post pics so we can see. The recommendations you get here are a good starting point, but your ears will tell you what's best for you.

i'm not particularly attached to that amp, in fact I just ordered it a couple days ago and don't even have it yet -- just picked it up because it looked ideal. if a 4ch amp will work better I have nothing against turning it around on ebay.

I will definitely go to the store up here and have a listen -- it's just that their selection is pretty limited and I don't want to limit myself =]

I'm also wondering what you guys think about how funds should be distributed here? I bought my home system the same way I bought my old car system -- just went to the store and listened and bought what sounded best in my price range, but the wierd thing is I came out with a $150 2ch reciever and $600 speakers..that's just what sounded best to me (the more expensive recievers added a bunch of fancy A/V stuff I don't care about and didn't sound much better at all -- couldn't tell any significant difference in sound 'till I got up to the separate amp/preamp setups that would have set me back a couple grand). I'm wondering if I should look for a similiar effect with car stereo gear.

I also forgot to mention that I have no problem buying used/refurbished gear off of ebay or similiar if it will get me better sound for less money -- i've done plenty of this in the past to try things out when i'm not sure, since I can usually put things right back on ebay and get close to what I paid for them if I don't like them =]

the funds:
i would suggest you allocating $300-$400 for a head unit(internal crossover is a +), $200-$300 on the speaker components, $200-$300 on a 4 channel amp and the rest on the sub

you mentioned you don't need the rear channel and also wanted a stealthier install, the 4 channel amp should be perfect, no hassle trying to wire 2 amps

about shopping, just remember, what sounds good in a shop might not always sound as good in the car

You have to look at the E and see what's easy to install (head unit and front speakers) and what's not (subwoofer and amplifier). I think you need to focus on where you want to install the subwoofer and amplifier and what will fit. That's the trick to the E. Do you want to lose some of your car's utility for a sub box in the back? Will a 6" subwoofer in the stock location do it for you? The simplest solution for the E is the Stealthbox from JL Audio. That's half your budget but it's the best off the shelf solution for bass in the stock location. So that leaves you with $500 for a HU, amp, and speakers. It can be done. Alpine CDA-9856 $199.99, Audiobahn A12005DN $179.99. Polk Audio db 650 $99.99. If you can get a deal on the Stealthbox, someone else on EOC picked one up for $400, you can add another set of Polk db 650. Sometimes you can find those speakers buy one pair get the other half price. You run those off the Alpine HU which is adequate (4 X 18). The Audiobahn is a dedicated sub amp. If you want you can just get one pair of a better speaker like the Polk Momo MMC 650 $149.99 and get a 4 channel amp instead of the Audiobahn like the Alpine MRP-F250 $199.99. I just used Crutchfield to illustrate a couple $1000 systems. You can also go to elemental designs and get their 4 channell amp, component speakers and their small sub for around 500 bucks.

meh, I already decided against the stealthbox - I found some pictures of one installed and it doens't look very "stealth" to me, being covered in black carpet in a car with a grey rubber/plastic interior, not to mention that it doesn't look like the greatest way to blow half my max budget. I also don't think i really need a 10" sub, might be getting a little to far into the bloat zone for me. also, I already have a sub amp on the way (although it's not as beefy as that one).

does anyone have any experience with the CDT M6 vs. the EU-700? I see a lot of positive reviews for the EU-700 on here, and the M6 costs twice as much. although, I started reading some other car audio forums a bit, and ED doesn't seem quite as well respected as they are here :shock:

maybe the thing to do is monkey with the sub first so I have a better idea whether or not I need to spend more money there or whether the 6" is big enough.

maybe the thing to do is monkey with the sub first so I have a better idea whether or not I need to spend more money there or whether the 6" is big enough.

That's what I was trying to tell you. Get your bass figured out, and go from there.

gibroni has it right. Your sub will determine a lot, including how much money you have left over.

Elemental Designs is a board favorite, definitely. They are an up and coming company so you might not see as much elsewhere as here. Given how sh!tty the factory sub box is, I wouldn't get overly concerned with a super-duper driver. Whatever you do, you will have to reseal the sub box, eliminating the port and sealing it around the edges with resin. The port can literally be filled with an old sock. Use this thread (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20951) for advice.

Use the eD sub and you'll have money for a top flight head unit, component speakers and a decent amp. Don't forget the steering wheel interface, too.

I went for a listen at the local shop today, with a test cd I burned that I think is pretty representative of my music. here's my impression:

HUs: umm, wasn't all that impressed by anything. the $130 alpine (CDE-9846) sounded as good as anything, seems like the expensive ones just add features (of course the cheap one I mentioned doesn't have a line in which I need, just mentioning it because I couldn't tell any difference in SQ with the higher end ones). generally preferred alpine over pioneer sound-wise. I don't think they had a single one that didn't have a detachable face, which sucks. i really don't want a detachable face. They also didn't have any with a USB port, which I was hoping to monkey with. maybe best buy will have one so I can at least see if it works. If I buy a HU with only one set of RCA outs, can I split it and feed it to more than one set of inputs?

components: there was a clear winner here. alpine SPX-177R, "type x" components..haven't seen these mentioned at all here but I just loved them, very musical...solid midbass..and the highs were there without biting my brains =P they were about $275. distant 2nd were some bostons that cost almost twice as much, I didn't even write down the model number. I liked my old mb quart components but the new ones they had there were just about the worst speakers they had.

sub: they only had alpines and kickers out and hooked up...there were some boston subs stacked in boxes in the corner but not running. wasn't real impressed with alpine. also listened to kicker comp VR and L5 8". didn't like the VR (bloaty) but the L5 sounded pretty good. definitely loud and deep enough for what I need, it wasn't *perfect* sounding but it was tight enough to not sound like complete ass playing the crazy double-kick drums on the satyricon track I threw on there. If I can't get enough out of something in the stock box I think i'll try building a custom fiberglass thingy for the stock location with a 8in L5 in it.

amps: they had kickers running everything. they sounded perfectly fine, but I obviously didn't get to do much comparison. the L5 went loud enough for me even on the littlest amp they had, as did the alpine speakers I liked

any thoughts?
I'm still im particular wondering if I should stick with the EU-700 or CDT M6 for upgrading the stock box...

as a side note, I was kinda disappointed with the store...last time I've been there was in like '99 and they had a MUCH better selection back then, and I didn't recognize any of the staff at all, nor were they terribly helpful.

I forgot to mention that I was almost as impressed with the lower end alpine speakers as the ones I mentioned, for those of you that want something cheaper...the SPS-17C2 type s coax's that cost less than half as much...I could tell a difference, but it wasn't huge -- they still sound very very nice. they're good enough that I wouldn't mind going with them if I had to save money. maybe I'll put some in our other car or something =]

I forgot to mention that I was almost as impressed with the lower end alpine speakers as the ones I mentioned, for those of you that want something cheaper...the SPS-17C2 type s coax's that cost less than half as much...I could tell a difference, but it wasn't huge -- they still sound very very nice. they're good enough that I wouldn't mind going with them if I had to save money. maybe I'll put some in our other car or something =]

if you think those coaxs are nice, try the polk db650, way better and distorts very little, power handling is 60rms

no polk dealer here (smaller town -- yes i'm serious, there's no circuit city =P)

no polk dealer here (smaller town -- yes i'm serious, there's no circuit city =P)


how sad...j/k

well if you like the alpines, get them

dont forget to dampen your doors well, otherwise, those nice speakers will not sound good

I have Boston pro 6.5 components in another vehicle, also with mb quartz 4in. for fill. The sub is Boston 12.5 Pro. You already decided you liked the alpines better than Boston for highs and mids. The only advise I can give you about the sub is-----My Boston 12" has about 550w to it and sounds great, but it doesnt do as good with 550w as the Alpine Type R. Although if you are keeping the sub at 10" or 8" the boston and Alpine are near identicle IMO. Over 10", the Boston is pretty power hungry compared to the Type R. My 2 cents:)

The Alpine Type X separates are a great favorite in our store. Along with the Kicker RS components, they are a rarity among car components now a days. They aren't bright. So many car separates have sizzling tweeters. Not the Alpine Type X separates. I understand why you liked them. :)

Just a random not really on subject question, but did kicker pull their "rs" and "ss" model names off the camaro? Or is that just coincidence?

-jp

I'll have to ask them. :-P

well I got a chance to test the USB thing on a JVC deck at best buy, and it does indeed work...it plays the 192k VBR mp3's I usually use no problem, but it doesn't play FLAC (big surprise, heh). anyway I think it's pretty cool, just to carry a cheap little thumb drive around with whatever you feel like listening to at the moment =P i'm not sure if it'll work very well with portable HDs or not, the interface for navigating the stuff on the drive isn't terribly good, but we usually bring a laptop with a car adapter along on long trips anyway (which is why I didn't want video capability). I'm pretty much settled on those alpine speakers, they just sounded better than anything else in the store...so I guess next up is for me to figure out the sub. I'll get on that today.

has anyone ever been brave enough to try out one of those cheapo direct from Hong Kong or whatever decks on ebay? i'm kinda thinking about it, since I really haven't been impressed with anything in the store. not that I expect one of those to impress me, but I do see some that have all the stuff I want for half as much money.

hi again =P

I'm trying to mess around and get the stuff I have so far hooked up in the house to fiddle with. since my sub amp isn't here (actually it isn't even shipped yet, I may call them later and figure out what's going on) I ran over to the pawn shop to pick up a cheap 2 channel amp to mess with.

buried at the back of the display case they have a couple of old white Zapco amps, for prices reasonable enough that I could actually afford one, and I remember reading earlier that these are some of the best around..should I think about grabbing one of these? the models were studio 204 and AG360..i have no idea about the specs (heh) but they're both pretty physically big. they aren't really *cheap* but they're cheap enough I can justify one and stay within my budget. what do y'all think? I think they'd be hard to hide in the car =p but if they're really that great i'd be willing to give it a shot. I did notice that they don't have built in crossovers which is a little inconvenient.

I did walk out of the store with a really scratched up, but apparently working, alpine mrv-f400, 4 channel amp. I'm not really sure if it's any good but it was only about $20 more than the cheapest of the 2 channel amps they had so I grabbed it.

edit - I mistyped the model of one of the zapco amps. it's an ag360, not ag350

Ok, now i've hooked the factory sub up with my old HU and speakers in my spare bedroom. the sub sounds...ok. I tried stuffing a sock in the port and it didn't seem to make much difference, except for wierd noises if it wasn't sealed all the way (and it's hard to get it to seal all the way with a sock). I think I could be reasonably content with it, but I worry about how it's going to work with road noise and the like in a car...but it really doesn't sound half bad. I'm pretty impressed for something that comes stock in the car, definitely of much better quality than the door speakers, hehe.

how much improvement can I expect with a different driver (eu700 or CDT M6 or whatever else) in the stock box?


i figured this testing mode might be kind of amusing to some of you car stereo folks so I took pictures =p no, it doesn't really sound very good this way, but I was just trying to test the sub.

http://webpages.charter.net/yamhat/test1.jpg

yes that's a computer power supply running it all. a crappy one too, only rated at 12 amps on the +12v. needless to say it wasn't very happy:

http://webpages.charter.net/yamhat/testpsu.jpg

hehe. the little wires in the power connector I hooked it up to got pretty hot =P

update again! i enjoy replying to myself apparently

I went back and picked up the zapco ag360 after realising I could resell it on ebay for more than they wanted at the pawn shop. hooked it up...definitely improved the sound, even with the junky stuff I have, so I think i'll keep it. I think i'm going to order a set of those alpine components now and see where that takes me and think about how to proceed with the sub. thanks for the help and for listening to me rant =P

You know what's the best part about your install, yamhat? You are obviously having fun, playing with the toys. That is something I absolutely love about car audio. Home audio has, for the most part, become an appliance. You take it out of the box and plug it in. You play with car audio.

you're quite right ;] color me highly amused. I'm still waiting for this $20 power supply to blow up.

anyone know of any other 6.5in midbass drivers that would be worth a try in the stock sub box? i saw the JL 6w0 but the few reviews i found didn't look especially good.

what do you folks think of this woofer (http://www.mpyreaudio.com/65x.htm) for the stock box? it's a bit more pricey than the others at $120 but the specs look very good from what little I understand of them :wink:

it looks like they just started making them a couple of months ago, so maybe I'll have to be the guinea pig for this application =]

I just ran the Thiele-Small calculations for this woofer and they come out wonderful. The only spec that isn't given is the volume this woofer would displace in the box but I assumed it would be about a third of the volume of the box, leaving us a paltry 0.11 cu. ft. box volume (the factory box is 0.16 cu. ft.). But even still, the figures look good. Here is the frequency response graph for this woofer in a sealed box. It is excellent for this small of a woofer. I changed the measurements from metric to english:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/freq.jpg

The power handling performance isn't quite as good but is acceptable. It will run out of power handling before it reaches the end of its excursion but the difference isn't great. All in all, this is excellent performance for a 6.5" woofer. I'm bookmarking this puppy. :cool:

It's too bad eD doesn't give us the same info to run the Thiele-Small parameters on their woofers. :sad:

ok, I think i'll give her a shot. I'm ordering the spx-177r compnents and the mpyre 65x today. next step is to figure out where I can hide an 18 inch long amp in a car with no trunk =P let's see where we stand budget wise for now:

stock sub & box, ebay: $70 shipped
alpine spx-177r, ebay: $215 shipped
zapco ag360 @ pawn america: $180
mypre 65x @ acoustic-visions.com: $132 shipped

total right now: $597

so I've got about $400 left for a deck and misc. odds and ends like wiring and stuff.

Nice. :) With the sub box, are you getting the shroud, too? Some people don't include it. I can't find it at Majestic Honda's site although I've seen it in a parts diagram before. Maybe lizzurd can cover my ass on this one. :D

Hey yamhat maybe outpost could turn you on to one of the amp racks he used they look really awsome, check out his install. Drew

A-HA! Here's the damn page (http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=Element&catcgry2=2004&catcgry3=5DR+EX+4WD+SIDE+SRS&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=INSTRUMENT+PANEL+GARNISH+%28PASSENGER+SID E%29) from Majestic Honda's site.

mm, I forgot about the cover. thanks.

his amp racks do look nice but I want stealth, and I don't think hanging it in the window is very stealthy =]

still not sure about what HU to go with. if it had a line in I'd probably just keep my old JVC, I'm pretty happy with it otherwise. I'm kinda half-heartedly looking at the JVC KD-AR770, that USB thing is pretty cool, but I dunno. I just haven't seen anything that really impresses me all that much.

I've had a couple ideas about hiding the amp, I have a couple days off from work this week so I'll have to spend some time monkeying with the car to see if they're feasable. my last resort idea is to stuff it up under the headliner..I pulled the liner in my old subaru a couple of times to glue it back up and it wasn't too terrible of a job.