On this month's issue of Honda Tuning mag, it features RSX and EP with Jackson RAcing's Super charger. Toward the end of the article, Jackson Racing hints that they are working on Super Charger for Element.

What do you guys think? Personally, I think it will be great to have super charger than Turbo for Element...

I know that will buy a JRSC sooner or later for my element. I only want 6-7psi, and turbo just seems impractical to say the least.

I have a JR s/c on my CRX.
I don't have an Element, but maybe in the next year or so...
I've never driven one, but if I found it seriously lacking in power then I might think about putting a s/c on it.

Yes a S/C would be good for the E! :twisted: Jackson Racing does good stuff...

Wait for a GReddy turbo kit...or you can spend $4,000 on a JRSC and "maybe" get 35hp from it...:roll: Practicality between a turbo and a supercharger would be...equally impractical, but you don't add forced induction for practicality, do you? No. Forced induction is forced induction, period. They both require the same support items, and preventitve measures, so why not go for the one that makes more power, and is more efficient --------> a turbocharger.

"Wait for a GReddy turbo kit...or you can spend $4,000 on a JRSC and "maybe" get 35hp from it."

If you're going to get into the whole turbo/sc debate at least get your facts straight. $4,000? Right. In what currency pray tell? And "maybe" 35 hp? Please. Where did you get this figure? 6psi nets ~40hp on a 108hp CRX motor. On the 160hp Element motor you'd get 50hp at least.

"Practicality between a turbo and a supercharger would be...equally impractical, but you don't add forced induction for practicality, do you? No."

JR S/C's are simpler and more practical for daily driving. Simpler to install and maintain. More practical on the street because there's zero lag and a smooth, linear boost increase.

"Forced induction is forced induction, period."

Forced induction is NOT forced induction. Exclamation point! If it were there would be no turbo/sc debate would there? There are many different ways to force feed a motor. Turbo, sc, nitrous, any combination of the above. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. Some applications call for a certain approach over others.

"They both require the same support items, and preventitve measures..."

No they don't. Turbo timers, blow off valves, boost controllers, oil return lines, fancy exhaust manifolds, etc, are all turbo-only. They aren't needed on a roots type JR s/c. Granted they aren't needed for all turbo set-ups either but the way you explained it is misleading I think.

"...so why not go for the one that makes more power, and is more efficient --------> a turbocharger."

If you prefer turbos that's cool but they are not the be all and the end all. I think the s/c would be a better choice for the Element. Turbos make most of their power way up high in the rev range. Depending upon the size of the turbo you may have some lag before you get into boost too. S/C's make power right off of idle. In and around town that's the way to go in my opinion. Drag racing ok, turbos rule. But given the nature of the vehicle in question I don't think many owners will be screaming up to redline all that often though.

Hrm, where do I start?

1: Apparently you cannot sense sarcasm, so let me spell it out: A JRSC is a waste of money. If you want to add forced induction just so you can say "I have forced induction" then I guess a JRSC is alright...but if you want to add forced induction to be fast, and make power...it's pretty much a well-known industry standard that you add a turbocharger, to a 4 cylinder Honda engine. The only JRSC that has impressed me was on a Type-R, and the blower itself was tweaked to hell by Larry Widmer, and was sporting a 100 shot of nitrous. Sorry if I offend you, being a JRSC owner, but I have been adding forced induction to Hondas for about 7 years now, and I have been through it all...A 50hp add from 6psi is not impressive.

2: Drag comes from inexperienced enthusiasts choosing the wrong turbocharger for their engine, and driving conditions. We have turbo lag, you have parasitic drag...How effiecient and practical is that? The tool you add to your engine leaches off of the thing it is supposed to be adding power to, in order to work. Big 5.0L engines can make up for that with lots of displacement, small 1.5-2.4L engines have a harder time doing so, hence the minimal power gains.

3: Forced induction IS forced induction. Period. Is your JRSC compressing and adding different air than a turbocharger is? I don't think so. The goal of forced induction is to compress and cram air into the engine. A turbocharger and a supercharger both do this using the same principals, but go about it mechanically different. Yeah, there are different ways to feed an engine, but in the end, the goal is to cram as much air into there as possible, making forced induction equal forced induction. The way you go about it doesn't matter, because the end goal is power, and the one that makes it the easiest, and the most efficiently is the bargaining tool.

You said it yourself, some applications call for a different approach, and the approach to a small displacement, low torque engine, is usually the path of least resistance, which comes in the form of turbocharging (sans parasitic drag, better efficiency on small engines).

4: They both do require the same support and preventitive measures. I'm not talking about unnecessary add-ons, although there are blow-off valves for superchargers (or do you guys call them bypass valves?), there are boost controllers for JRSC's, etc...But those aren't (as) important. I am talking about fuel and spark. More air requires more fuel, and can require more spark past a certain point on Honda engines. With these, tuning becomes a must. You add air, you add fuel. You change the stock fuel and air settings, and your stock ECU can no longer handle it, so you either slap a piggy back on it, or change it out completely for an aftermarket tuneable standalone unit. Once again, forced induction is forced induction, and these upgrades are needed for any kind of forced induction you choose. You change the status quo, then you change EVERYTHING.

5: A good ball bearing T28 would be enough for this engine. That turbocharger can hold boost past 1.0 bar, and will spool immediately, and make nice power throughout the powerband. You could even go with a ball bearing T3/T04B with a Stage-5 60-1 wheel, and spool fast as ****, low in the powerband, and make very impressive power. It's not hard.

Turbochargers, contrary to popular belief, DO NOT require all of the maintenance that most people think they do...it's just a myth perpetuated by ignorance...but that is understandable, because if you don't own one, how are you supposed to know? They are simple to care for, extremely versatile, and with the right set-up, unbeatable...I think that is a proven fact. They are definitely the most efficient way to make extra power, they do not require a refill after 30 squeezes, and you don't have to pop your hood to change a pully if you want to add an immidiate 100hp extra.

You are correct in saying a supercharger is easier for a day-to-day city driver, but let's be realistic...once you add forced induction to your

...well that is weak, I didn't know there was a limit on how long a post can be.

Anyway, once you add forced induction to your vehicle, it no longer becomes a normal daily driver. I don't feel like re-typing the whole spiel, but it was something about my old Civic, went from stock, to 13 second GReddy turbo, to fully built 11 second B16A turbo street car. Hardly a normal daily driver.

Point is, if you are going to add FI to a small engine (i.e. ANY Honda engine that doesn't sit in a $90,000 vehicle), your best bet it to go with the one with the most efficiency, and the one that makes the best power if you so please: the turbocharger. If you only want 30-50hp more, slap a K20A head on it, and do some bolt-ons...it's safer, and probably around the same price if you know where to look.

I've been around the block with Hondas, and now I am in the business of making them faster...and in all of my experience, a JRSC is never worth it.

But that is just my humble opinion.

Ok, first off you don't offend me. Second, you're right, your sarcasm was lost on me (and most everyone else reading your first post I bet).
Do me a favour and re-read your first post. The first sentence is total B.S. Now imagine some Element owner reading it who knows sweet f@&$ all about forced induction and actually believeing that crap. THAT'S what I have a problem with and took issue with. Sarcasm doesn't translate too well over the internet.
If you're all for turbo's that's fine. I can agree to disagree but at least present your opinion/argument in an intelligent, TRUTHFUL manner like you did in your subsequent post(s). If I didn't call you on your fist post some people would have been mislead and that's not why this board exists.

I think the main reason we don't agree on this whole thing is simple and can be summed up in something you just posted:
"Anyway, once you add forced induction to your vehicle, it no longer becomes a normal daily driver."
I wager that most Element owners would be looking for just that when going FI; their same normal daily driver but with little more oomph. Nothing too radical. And that, in my opinion, is where the s/c shines. I'd guess that there aren't too many Element owners out there really concerned with ET's and peak HP and torque #'s. When and where power is made is just as important as peak #'s. Let's face it. It's a grocery getter. It's a cereal box. It's not supposed to be wicked-fast! A 13 second Element would be stupid. How would you ever stop and turn the thing?!
Granted, you don't have to go all out with a turbo. But s/c's are still simpler and not everyone knows what's going on under their hood. Just cause turbos are simple to you (having worked with them for 7 years) doesn't make them simple to the average Element owner.
By the way, my 50hp guesstimate was just that and I think I was erring on the side of caution. Once the Element kit's out we'll see. But say it is only 50hp. Would any Element owners here NOT be happy with ~31% more power?
Ya, that's what I thought.

I think we are on the same page, because we're saying the same thing. Essentially, the JRSC doesn't add that much power, and if that is what someone is looking for, so be it. I just cannot, for the life of me, understand why someone would add forced induction, and introduce a world of hell on their engine...for a meager amount of power. :idea: Doesn't make much sense to me.

The JRSC should cost around $3,000, add installation costs for most people, and that's at least another $400, then you add some injectors if you're smart, and a fuel pump, and there is another $400, colder plugs, dyno time, V-AFC, etc...exhaust, intake, easily $4,000+. What are they going to boost, 4...5psi maybe? 35-45 extra horsepower? If that's how someone wants to spend their money, so be it, it's not up to me. But like I said, you can get similar results from an RSX-S head, and have a safer set-up. You'll void the warranty either way, may as well not have to worry about adding forced induction. If someone is just looking for a little extra oomph, as you put it, there are safer, more econimical ways to go about it. I think you will agree that forced induction should not be tampered with by people who don't plan on making much power, and using it, right? It's counter-productive...it's like having a loaded gun, and trying to stop someone from killing you by hitting them with the butt of it.

[quote:cd91ef94d4="Rockford"]But say it is only 50hp. Would any Element owners here NOT be happy with ~31% more power?

Ya, that's what I thought.[/quote:cd91ef94d4]

Well, considering cost effectiveness, and the fact that a turbocharger can be had for the same price, and your net gains would probably be 10%+ more than that, figure it out yourself.

"Ya, that's what I thought."

Can we refrain from the pissing contest quotes? You made your points, and I made mine, end of story. I think that most people will be able to find out what suits their OWN needs just fine, and I think we have done a good job at illustrating where each systems strong points reside.

AH! I forgot another thing! Screw forced induction, period. Hehe, there is no hope regardless...my buddy just dyoned his AWD auto Element, and freaking put down 100.3whp. No, that is not a typo...one hundred point three wheel horsepower. Pathetic. I put an intake on mine already, but that is all...I won't even bother doing anything else to it, it's not worth it.

Anyway man, I suggest we agree to disagree, I don't feel like arguing back and forth.

That is pretty bad. If anything though I would think those meager stock dyno #'s would make one MORE inclined to go FI. I guess I'll have to wait and see when and if I get one whether I feel the need for more power.
Btw, what did you mean by going FI and introducing a world of hell onto your engine? Sure you'd be running more power than Honda's engineers planned for but so long as you're not detonating (especially at only 6lbs) I wouldn't worry much.

that the sole reason for going with a SC over Turbo is that many SC's don't void your warranty and many turbos do.

just my 2 cents. :)

[quote:f95fc3768d="Rockford"]That is pretty bad. If anything though I would think those meager stock dyno #'s would make one MORE inclined to go FI. I guess I'll have to wait and see when and if I get one whether I feel the need for more power.
Btw, what did you mean by going FI and introducing a world of hell onto your engine? Sure you'd be running more power than Honda's engineers planned for but so long as you're not detonating (especially at only 6lbs) I wouldn't worry much.[/quote:f95fc3768d]

The more I think about it, the more I think that the dyno tuner had no clue what he was doing. If you don't have the settings right, you will not get a correct reading, and I think that was the problem. He said he couldn't find the shift points, and I don't even think he knew what gear he was in, so he couldn't have gotten the calibrations right. Anyway, as for FI and a world of hell...any engine that wasn't made for it, has a hard time compensating. Of course, we all know how to deal with it and what changes need to be made, but I am sure you'd agree that any engine that was built and meant to be NA, needs an overhaul when you switch to FI.

Technocoy, what SC's don't void warranties? I don't think I've ever seen one that doesn't..?

Anyway, yeah man, that dyno has to be wrong... :cry:

How did they dyno the AWD?
Plus its an auto, what do you expect coming through that?

I had a very heavily built Chrysler Conquest and one of the guy in our club had a Galant VR-4, the only way to dyno it (short of going to one of the VERY few AWD dynos in the SouthEast we to remove the rear driveshaft.

Having had both a turbo and S/C car I would say that the type of gains most people are looking for are going to come from the SC. You may not net as much total HP gain for the money but for general driving, light towing, and passing the lowend pull from a SC better. Of course when the Conquest hit 22psi, the secondary injectors were firing, and all hell was generally breaking loose under the hood, it would make you giggle like a schoolgirl.

My guess would be that if they weren't on an AWD dyno that, since the front wheels wouldn't slip anyway, they'd be ok on a regular one.
I believe that's how the Element AWD system works.
For all intents and purposes (dynoing included presumably) it's a FWD vehicle until some wheel slippage occurs right?

MatT3T4, I know what you mean by any NA car not being designed for FI but an overhaul? I don't know. When I was running the stock 6psi on my CRX the only real changes made to compensate were the rising rate regulator, that TA resistor hack and turning the timing back full time. Ya, at 8lbs I've since done some of the other stuff but at 6lbs I didn't need to do anything other than what was provided with the kit. It's not ideal and it's always a compromise when you do this sort of stuff but the JR kit is pretty much plug and play.
But you make a good point, and actually one of the things not mentioned yet with turbos is the intense heat. By virtue of compressing already-hot exhaust gases intercooling becomes almost a must. With the JR s/c it isn't. By the way it isn't possible (not yet at least) either which is a definite drawback if you're thinking up upping the boost on the s/c.
But turbos definitely run hotter and you're right, an N/A car's components just weren't designed to withstand that for long.

They were on an AWD Mustang dyno, and the rear wheels were engaged, I've seen the video. I'd still imagine that the tuner calculated the wrong settings, and threw the whole thing off.

Anyway it's like this...if a person knows what they are doing, and literally becomes one with their car, no matter how cheesy that may sound, the car will be fine. I ran a turbocharged B16A Civic for 2 years, before I decided to build the engine. I ran 10psi daily, with jaunts up to 20psi almost daily, and ran on a Mugen computer with a 9,000rpm redline, which the engine say daily. No problems at all. It's all about tuning. I live in SoCal, so on hot ass days, I'd just watch the boost, but more importantly, I'd watch load, and never detonated. I also rigged my windshield washers up to the front bumper to saturate the intercooler on hot days. Stock Honda engines are extremely strong, more so than many people give them credit for, but the second you let something slip, they can go, turbo/sc/nos, all the same when it comes to watching your ass. Of course, one has a strong point where another doesn't, but in the end, you are after the same goal, so you have to pay attention to the same details.

When I think of FI, because of my previous experience, I want to go the way that I know will net the most gains, and since turbocharging is relatively easy and normal to ME, that is the one I want. I always think about the one that gives the biggest gains on a Honda engine, so I am extremely biased in that way. I understand some people just want some extra kick, but that's just not me, so between you and I, EOC members should be able to make their minds up on the Turbo vs. SC thing. All someone needs to do now is explain nitrous.

I also rigged my windshield washers up to the front bumper to saturate the intercooler on hot days."

Cool! How many people (after seeing the steam) did you get asking you if you needed help cause your car was overheating?

"All someone needs to do now is explain nitrous."

I'll leave that to someone else too. Though I am thinking of it for my s/c'd CRX for it's cooling effect since I can't intercool the traditional way and am not crazy about water injection. A 30 shot might be fun.

I'm getting rid of my hatchback, and buying my buddy's 95 GSR. It's already running low 14's NA, and it's clean as hell...and I might add a 50 shot just for ****s and giggles. I've never done nitrous, and figure it'll be fun. Of course the car will be driven by my fiancee mainly, so I will keep the bottle OUT of the car most of the time, hehe...

[quote:f5e6cd2e05="MatT3T4"]AH! I forgot another thing! Screw forced induction, period. Hehe, there is no hope regardless...my buddy just dyoned his AWD auto Element, and freaking put down 100.3whp. No, that is not a typo...one hundred point three wheel horsepower. Pathetic. I put an intake on mine already, but that is all...I won't even bother doing anything else to it, it's not worth it.

Anyway man, I suggest we agree to disagree, I don't feel like arguing back and forth.[/quote:f5e6cd2e05]


My EX 4WD 5speed ran 136 RWHP (stock) on an AWD Dyno. K&N had it for testing for a new cold air intake. The car saw gains between 12 and 29 RWHP with various prototype intake kits.

Yeah, the dyno tuner didn't know what the hell he was doing. When my buddy told me this, I knew it was impossible. The more I thought about it, the more things fell into place. He couldn't even find the shift points...he screwed it up.

Can you elaborate on the RSX head upgrade? One of the posts about what could be a fantasy 400 hp E mentioned an interesting thing, that anything over 220HP overloads the AWD system. Anyone know if that is BS or what the AWD can handle for HP? That could make FI a mute point.

Back to a "daily" driver (maybe even your wife's E) that can still haul around the kids but also rachet up the fun factor a notch... thinking K&N Typhoon ($200 +5hp), header/pipe/muffler ($500 +5hp), re-chip ($300 +10hp), roughly 20-25HP for $1000, no engine mods. What would the RSX head get you on top of that, any idea on cost...

This thread seemed like a good place to ask about modding an element. I have a wrx right now, but hoping/planning to get an element for my girlfriend/fiance as our travel car. I think the element is awesome, but looks like it'll need some handy mods to make it go faster. What parts do they have out there and are there any turbos out for it yet? Would an engine swap be more ideal? This would be a daily driver/travel car, so I don't plan to do too much to risk being stranded in the middle of nowhere. Thanks in advance.

Depends on your pockets, putting in an acura engine would be very cool BUT from my research if you are sticking with the E engine, putting in an Injen or KN Typhoon (not available yet) CAI with a 2.5" pipe to a performance exhaust system is a good starting point. You could then put in a turbo or supercharger, either one would almost require the CAI and muffler to get the most out of them.

I'm not sure my plan yet... the CAI alone may do it and keep it a daily driver.