EX, 5 speed manual with on demand 4WD. Not sure how to tell if it is actually working or not. Maybe it is always on, or maybe it is never on.
Any clues as to how yoy would tell if it really works without needing to be ina situation that would "make" it work?

[quote:f7a98768e5="ZRAJ07"]EX, 5 speed manual with on demand 4WD. Not sure how to tell if it is actually working or not. Maybe it is always on, or maybe it is never on.
Any clues as to how yoy would tell if it really works without needing to be ina situation that would "make" it work?[/quote:f7a98768e5]


at a stop light... take off like you stole the car!
that is - rev to about 3500rpm then floor the accelerator!
you'll feel the front wheels slip for at most 2 seconds and you will feel the rear drive kicking in.

not recommended, but hey... it's fun sometimes.

not recommended, but hey... it's fun sometimes.

How about just trying it as it was intended in i.e. mud, snow, sand or gravel :roll:

The Elements 4WD systems is automatics just like in the CRV. One way to 'make' it work is to start out from a uphill grade in the rain or turning right at a stop sign fast. You need to get the front wheel to spin some before it will engage. You will then feel a 'push' from the rear and the front wheels will stop spinning giving you traction. There really is no noise or other signals it's actually on, you just know because you are not spinning. I guess ice would be even better to tell.

Maybe a bonehead question, but is there a plug and play module that could be adapted from the Pilot to activate the All Wheel Drive by the push of a button? It probably goes without saying that this modification void the warranty.

Maybe a bonehead question

Should I take offence? :shock:

No. Or at least I don't think so. RT4WD is a limited-slip mechanical system- NOT a locking-type system. Mechanically it has to detect slippage, and then the rear wheels will engage. In other words, the drivetrain isn't built for it.

I understand the Pilot is considered a "Real-Time" system that detects slippage and engages, BUT, you also have the option to engage it all of the time with the push of a button. It seems like this would be applicable to the ELEMENT too?

>It seems like this would be applicable to the ELEMENT too?

No. The Pilot has a completely different transmission. I don't know the Pilot firsthand, but the best I can tell from the transmission parts breakout is that the 4x4 clutch is electronically activated. In all likelihood the automatic function is managed by the drivetrain computer using the wheel speed sensors originally there for the ABS. Putting a switch in that system is trivial.

qsilver has it right - the E's system is a limited-slip arrangement and is all done through mechanical prestidigitation.

That's it, Mike. I know what the word means, but I can never actually pronounce it when called upon to say it! And at six syllables, you're really pushing the envelope here! Tell the truth -- didn't they limit you to two syllable words on the Ford Escape site? "Element" only contains three syllables, you know. :lol: I concur with your factual analysis, though. And there I go using a four syllable word! Sorry.

ROFL!! :lol: Made my day!

The pilots manual engagement is only for speeds less than 20 mph after that its brain takes over!

My brain stopped working once I was engaged then it woke up after I was married and by then it was too late.

KD,

Ain't that the truth. Studies show that speed and freq both diminish once you get up to speed in the marriage arena! Many times resulting in marked or total loss of traction :roll:

I purcased a used '03 EX AWD about a week ago. Today we had our first rain here and pulling out onto traffic the front wheels on the E started spinning and I didn't feel the rears kick in. Took it over to the dealer to have service look at it, we took it out to the parking lot and at a dead stop I mashed the pedal.....just practically sat there and spun the tires.

The service tech said he could see the rear wheels working....but I didn't share the same opinion, if the AWD is working your tires shouldn't spin that much....the rears should kick in and push you along.

I then went to the sales and said let me test drive a '07 EX AWD....now granted it's a brand new vehicle but the concept should be the same. We did the test at the same parking area....NO spin at all, the E just drove right thru the wet pavement.

The tires on my '03 are still in good cond. (bridgestone duelers). My question is if the AWD has changed from '03 to '06/07?? I don't feel that it has and I didn't like that the honda service dismissed this as being "normal".

Also, I just changed the diff. fluid on this '03.

Can anyone shed some light on the situation?

Also, I just changed the diff. fluid on this '03.

is the fluid full? , and what did the old fluid look like?? any noticible debris in there?

FYI...Elements are 4WD not AWD...there is a difference between the two!

John

So far this doesn't sound good. However... you may have accidentally hit one of the safeties in your wheel-spin test. The AWD clutch is prevented from engaging if the fronts are spinning too fast or are under too much power. IOW, you can't tromp on it to induce spin. This logic is to keep the AWD from engaging abruptly under high power and breaking things like axle halfs.

So... for your testing, setup a situation where you have nearly no traction to get slip at low throttle. However, you may have already experienced it that first time when you realized something might be wrong.

The really bad news is that replacing the AWD clutch is going to be $1300-1400 for the parts alone, $1050 from Majestic. Hopefully a junkyard can help you out.

Yes the fluid is full....the old fluid that came out stunk to high heaven!! Never smelled anything that bad, but to my knowledge no debris in the old fuid.....just "sludgey".

Was thinking that the E transfer case clutch might be either worn or something. Was looking at an older thread about people driving their E in the sand.

1fastvx......is that a 4 or an A???

Mike there's probably no way to tell if it's the clutch short of tearing the diff. apart is there??

If the outside observer sees the rear wheels spin on their own, then AWD is working. Since I am not in the habit of mashing the gas, and haven't observed my Element from outside, it is hard to say whether your amount of front wheel spin is normal or not.

The 2006 CRV had a newer version of the RT4WD system, one that uses a cam mechanism to send a small amount of power (about 10%) to the rear wheels sooner. I have not read whether the 2007 Element has this unit or the same one that the 2003 does.

The cleanest test for AWD is to wait till winter, and put the front wheels on an icy patch, and then try to back off - gently.

paulj

Take a look on the Honda website towards the lower right. You will even see the same logo as in you picture. The Elements have 4WD not AWD like I said before.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/engineering_overview.asp?ModelName=Element

John

Well my first notice to this I didn't mash the pedal, it was tring to merge onto traffic from a stop sign...probably giving the pedal 30% gas.....Once at the dealer we mashed it because that's what he told me to do.

I guess assuming that if the front wheels were spinning the rears would kick in.

But going back the '07....the '03 was night and day difference.....we mashed both E's and it wasn't even comparable.

I also do not have any spin on my '06 4WD.....so my assumption is that this '03 has something wrong with the mechanism of the diff.

I just would like to once have our honda dealer sound like they knew what they are talking about w/o me having to go on here to get ammunition to back up my claim.

CLEARLY there's something not working right if a 4WD sits and spins it tires, but they dismissed it as normal.

Take a look on the Honda website towards the lower right. You will even see the same logo as in you picture. The Elements have 4WD not AWD like I said before.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/engineering_overview.asp?ModelName=Element

JohnActually thats the first I have seen it called 4WD. I always remember it being called AWD.

If you get front tire spin your rear wheels should engage to push you through the situation and then disengage once the fronts gain traction. Something sounds amiss if just the fronts are spinning and the rears aren't doing anything at all. I would be more incline to find some soft ground since you have all the rain happening now and see if you can get the fronts to start to lose some traction and see if the rears attempt to kick in, if not, there is a problem.

Also dance, you should be able to go to the dealership and have them enter the VIN and every service that vehicle has had should come up. You'll get the true story on how it was taken care of.

Actually thats the first I have seen it called 4WD.

I think people assume it is AWD because of the sticker on the E since it looks like an A not a 4. I think you already saw the Honda website that shows the logo which is exactly like the E's sticker and then goes on to explain about the 4WD system.

Another Honda page that also lists 4WD specs

Towards the middle of the page on the left
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Element

Look at the trim levels
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Element

Here is another car site that lists the E's specs. I even went back to 2003 to make sure they did not change it. They all list 4WD not AWD.

2005 from another site
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2005&make=Honda&model=Element&trimid=-1

2003 from another site
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2003&make=Honda&model=Element&trimid=-1

John

If you get front tire spin your rear wheels should engage to push you through the situation and then disengage once the fronts gain traction. Something sounds amiss if just the fronts are spinning and the rears aren't doing anything at all. I would be more incline to find some soft ground since you have all the rain happening now and see if you can get the fronts to start to lose some traction and see if the rears attempt to kick in, if not, there is a problem.

Also dance, you should be able to go to the dealership and have them enter the VIN and every service that vehicle has had should come up. You'll get the true story on how it was taken care of.

If they went to Honda for service, which a good portion do not.

This is true, it is 4WD. There were a couple of vehicles like the Little Red Wagon, a Mopar racer and Oldsmoble had a All Wheels Drive Olds Hurst 442. Both of these cars would smoke all 4 tires when you stomped on them. It's my understanding and correct if I'm wrong, all wheel system usually are always engaged. Honda did make such a car in the Prelude back in the late 80's. They also had a 4WS Prelude which I had and sold prior to my getting the '03 Element. The 4 wheel steering is off the hook! If I had the money and really wanted to do something unique to my Element, knowing I would keep it forever, I'd have a shop put the four wheel steering on it in addition to the 4WD. Having the rear wheels turn is a great feature and it's like riding on rails!

I think people assume it is AWD because of the sticker on the E since it looks like an A not a 4. I think you already saw the Honda website that shows the logo which is exactly like the E's sticker and then goes on to explain about the 4WD system.

Another Honda page that also lists 4WD specs

Towards the middle of the page on the left
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/specifications_full_specs.asp?ModelName=Element

Look at the trim levels
http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Element

Here is another car site that lists the E's specs. I even went back to 2003 to make sure they did not change it. They all list 4WD not AWD.

2005 from another site
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2005&make=Honda&model=Element&trimid=-1

2003 from another site
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2003&make=Honda&model=Element&trimid=-1

JohnActually it wasnt even all that.

It is the countless posts on here where people have asked the question is it AWD or 4WD...and everyone one of them says its AWD.

Thanks for pointing out the proper referencing. Interesting. Makes me want to start this as a new thread.

This is true, it is 4WD. There were a couple of vehicles like the Little Red Wagon, a Mopar racer and Oldsmoble had a All Wheels Drive Olds Hurst 442. Both of these cars would smoke all 4 tires when you stomped on them. It's my understanding and correct if I'm wrong, all wheel system usually are always engaged. Honda did make such a car in the Prelude back in the late 80's. They also had a 4WS Prelude which I had and sold prior to my getting the '03 Element. The 4 wheel steering is off the hook! If I had the money and really wanted to do something unique to my Element, knowing I would keep it forever, I'd have a shop put the four wheel steering on it in addition to the 4WD. Having the rear wheels turn is a great feature and it's like riding on rails!


A little correction....the Prelude never had 4 wheel drive but it 4 wheel steering.

The Civic wagon came in 4wd for a few years....but that was a RT4WD system as well.

One way of defining these terms is:
AWD - power is sent to both front and rear differentials under nomal driving; when there is slipping, the balance between the two may shift.
4WD - in its traditional form, power is sent to the rear differential; power can be sent to the front one via a transfer case which turns both front and rear drive shafts at the same rate. The traditional form also has a low range gear reduction.

The Element is neither. It is basically a front wheel drive car. The transmission does drive a rear drive shaft at the same speed as the front - all the time. But the link between the drive shaft and the rear differential is 'reactive', so the rear wheels get power only when the front ones spin. Technically, the rear wheels get power when they are rotating at a slower speed than the rear drive shaft. Typically this is because the engine is turning one or both front wheels but the car is not going anywhere.

AWD systems can have different front/rear default biases. Some are 50/50. Others are 90/10 (Santa Fe). The Element can be thought of as a AWD with a 100/0 default bias.

paulj

PaulJ, has it stopped raining?

Chozn - I did check the VIN on this E...it's last trip to a honda service was at about 45 miles on the thing...so that doesn't help......also it's a repo vehicle so I'm assuming it wasn't taken car of very well.

Nonetheless, the 4WD system isn't working properly and I need some direction to determine what is causing the problem. If this is a major (i.e. expensive) fix I probably won't bother with it as this is a second vehicle, but if it's something that can be resolved without any major funds (over 1k) it needs to be done as this is a winter driver and was bought solely for it's 4WD capabilities.

Anyone know or had this problem with theirs, please chime in as I don't want to have to tear the whole diff. apart to see what the problem is....but there may be not other way to tell.

Worst case I could try and find a salvage yard to take the whole diff. off and replace...???:confused:

Hmmm...I can spin my front tires without the AWD engaging as well when on dry pavement.(well it is easy to do with a 5 speed and crummy tires:rolleyes:) Now when I'm driving on snowy roads, I can feel the rear wheels grab every time.

Maybe some built in safety system to prevent damage? Don't know, don't care. I just know my AWD works when it counts: in the snow and thats good enough for me.:)

The fluid you removed stunk terribly because it really is gear lube, and gear lube always has a distinct "scent" to it. (bleah)

sounds as if yours is broken

i can get the rears to kick in on mine in rain, snow, and even from a hot start on dry pavement.

Maybe I just don't notice it in the rain or dry...but if its broken, you can bet I'm getting rid of my E if the AWD is that fragile.

....if the AWD is that fragile.
this was bought used, so we have little idea about its history. So it is hard to say whether the awd is fragile or not. I have see little, here or on CRV forums about repairing a 'broken' RT4WD units, other than changing the oil.

paulj

That doesn't sound promising paul :-|

this was bought used, so we have little idea about its history. So it is hard to say whether the awd is fragile or not. I have see little, here or on CRV forums about repairing a 'broken' RT4WD units, other than changing the oil.


paulj



are you able to take it to a honda dealer to have it checked?

already did that.

They're the ones who said it was working fine :mad:

I will go back probably tho and take it to the service manager this time :D

Bring my can of "whoop#ss" this time :razz: :razz:

already did that.

They're the ones who said it was working fine :mad:

I will go back probably tho and take it to the service manager this time :D

Bring my can of "whoop#ss" this time :razz: :razz:


always good to have your whoop#ss handy. :D

Dance, you know I always keep me an A$$-Whippin' in the trunk! You need some handcuffs, mace, Shotgun with deer slugs?

dancer, is the Honda dealer the same party you bought the E from? Sorry if I missed something:)

IRV....unfortunately no on either of the E's I own. I bought this '03 used from a low end used car dealer....it's a repo vehicle that I paid about $1100 under wholesale for......now I can see why :evil:

The dealer I bought my '06 from is about an hour away each way. the local dealer doesn't have a good sales dept. but their service dept. is supposed to be good.

Chozn...please tell me you don't roll in your E with a shotgun in the back?? :-o

Naw, but I am locked with Glock! Model 17 or either Berretta Model 92G. Like Master Card, never leave home without it. I'd rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Ya feel me?

In VA we roll with our weapons in plain view holster attached to dash for the H&K Mark 21 and a holder for the streetsweeper. As long as it is plain view there is no problem. You can ride all day in VA with your weapon on the passenger seat. Now if you have it your glove box or under the seat that is illegal. Rather face a jury of 12 than be carried by six!

Take a look on the Honda website towards the lower right. You will even see the same logo as in you picture. The Elements have 4WD not AWD like I said before.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/engineering_overview.asp?ModelName=Element

JohnThat is just Honda marketing, since I believe they actually changed the name from AWD to 4WD in 2005 (although I could be very wrong about that). This link (http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html) will tell you all you need to know, and indeed, Edmunds also refers to it as AWD. For what it's worth, I made the AWD comment to my dealer when I was test-driving, and he mentioned that Honda is very insistent that the AWD system is marketed as "Real Time 4WD," and nothing else.

IRV....unfortunately no on either of the E's I own. I bought this '03 used from a low end used car dealer....it's a repo vehicle that I paid about $1100 under wholesale for......now I can see why :evil:

The dealer I bought my '06 from is about an hour away each way. the local dealer doesn't have a good sales dept. but their service dept. is supposed to be good.

Chozn...please tell me you don't roll in your E with a shotgun in the back?? :-o
Och! REPO can mean a not too careful tow.......

IRV - didn't even think about that!! :shock: :shock:

U could be right.....what would happen to a 4WD being towed....burn up the diff??

.....what would happen to a 4WD being towed....burn up the diff??

Its possible...there is at least one thread about not towing an AWD Element. The AWD E needs to be either flat-towed or put on a flat bed truck.

About a year ago I saw a GGM Element being towed the conventional way with the front tires off the ground...I quickly noticed that it was an AWD model as the front wheels were spinning.:shock:

EEEEKKKKKKK, a repo!! :shock: :shock: I didn't even notice that from the OP. IF you're lucky, they bothered to even try to figure out that the E is front drive. I know of a person in repo, and there was a really good show about repo on Discovery a few years ago. The bottom line is that they do what they need to do to get in, get the car, and get out in the least amount of time. If that means towing a front-wheel drive Buick Century with the drive wheels on the ground for awhile, so be it. They just go fast enough to get the transmission to break out of Park (which happens at about 20 mph).

I purcased a used '03 EX AWD about a week ago. Today we had our first rain here and pulling out onto traffic the front wheels on the E started spinning and I didn't feel the rears kick in. Took it over to the dealer to have service look at it, we took it out to the parking lot and at a dead stop I mashed the pedal.....just practically sat there and spun the tires.

The service tech said he could see the rear wheels working....but I didn't share the same opinion, if the AWD is working your tires shouldn't spin that much....the rears should kick in and push you along.

I then went to the sales and said let me test drive a '07 EX AWD....now granted it's a brand new vehicle but the concept should be the same. We did the test at the same parking area....NO spin at all, the E just drove right thru the wet pavement.

The tires on my '03 are still in good cond. (bridgestone duelers). My question is if the AWD has changed from '03 to '06/07?? I don't feel that it has and I didn't like that the honda service dismissed this as being "normal".

Also, I just changed the diff. fluid on this '03.

Can anyone shed some light on the situation?
couple of comments:
1. Bridgestone Duelers aren't very good in wet, especially when worn.
what kind of tires were on the E that didn't spin?

2. the E doesn't have a rear diff, per se. and i sure hope you didn't fill it w/ normal diff oil. (or that the salvage folks before you didn't do that.)
you must use genuine Honda Dual Pump fluid or you can destroy the drive mechanism to the rear wheels. it has to be the genuine Honda stuff. no exceptions. don't question it. get the idea? the fluid needs to be changed about every 30,000 miles, or when the rear starts to squeal when doing tight turns. as it recall, it holds a little over a liter, so if the regular diff oil is in there, drain it out the bottom plug and use the top plug to refill w/ the Honda stuff. make sure you can get top plug open before draining. then do it again after driving a few miles, then do it a third time. got to get all the old bad stuff out of there. only Genuine Honda Dual Pump fluid.

if it ain't the tires and it ain't the fluid, find yourself a friendly salvage yard that will give you a good price on a working used "pumpkin".

nacranym - I'd have to disagree on the duelers. I had them on my Expedition and they were great in rain & snow....but the tires spinning should only support my 4wd kicking in. The other E was a 07 with the stock goodyears which everyone on the EOC pretty much hate. :neutral:

Definitely used Honda diff. fluid....i'm no dummy, went to the dealership and made sure I had what was needed after doing research on the EOC.

If I can find a salvage yard and get a good price, the honda service mgr. said it would only be about 3 hrs. labor if I wanted them to put it on.

Thanks for your input tho. :D

My Dueler H/L's are excellent on wet roads and snow! I can't say it's the tire.

couple of comments:
1. Bridgestone Duelers aren't very good in wet, especially when worn.
what kind of tires were on the E that didn't spin?

Bridgestone Duler Alenzas are one of the highest rated tires one can put on the E. I bought them SPECIFICALLY because of their wet handling ability. have found the Alenzas awesome in wet conditions - even at at hi-way speeds they stick to the road like glue. Our roads here tend to flood and create hydroplaning situations in heavy rain and light rain and mist cause oil/dirt slick conditions like ice. The Alenzas have saved my butt more than once. I could not recommend a tire for wet driving conditions higher.

The OEM tires (the ones on the new E) are Goodyear Wranglers and they SUCK in the rain. Coincidentally, test driving the E for 2 days on a wet cold Jan weekend with the OEM tires is the reason I bought the Alenzas with 57 miles on the E. I did not want to risk driving even one more wet winter day on those tires. I was used to driving a Vette with very good tires and traction assist and I personally found the handling and wet traction so poor with the Wranglers as to border on downright dangerous.

So my my experience - as well as experiences of other EOC members AND the customers who have rated the Alenzas on Tire rack has NOT been that the Alenzas perform poorly in wet conditions but quite the opposite. In addition their wear rating is very high. To 70k miles if they are kept properly inflated, balanced and rotated thru-out and proper alignment is maintained on the E.

The slippage of the front tires on the OP's 03 has another cause OR the tires are in sorry shape and need replacement. The OP didn't say how many miles the E has on it but an 03 could easily have 60k miles on it and if the Alenzas are also pushing 60k miles a new set may be in order. The only way tell is to try a new set and see if the problem repeats. That would be my 1st stab at troubleshooting of the dealership verifies the AWD is functioning as it should.

I recently had to have my AWD Dodge Quad cab towed. I had an argument with the old fashioned Holmes wrecker operator... He insisted that it could be towed with the rear down. Well it cannot. Neither can the E, from my understanding. If it was a repo, then most definitely there could be a problem as a result. Overheated units typically may not kick in the viscous coupling as needed. Makes sense, at least.

Bridgestone Duelers aren't very good in wet, especially when worn.
Bridgestone Dueler Alenzas are one of the highest rated tires one can put on the E...

You might not be talking about the same Duelers. The Dueler H/T D687 is a very different animal from the Dueler H/L Alenza. According to the Tire Rack ratings, the H/T D687 ($75 each) is inferior to the H/L Alenza ($125 each) in several categories.


Dueler Dueler
H/L Alenza H/T D687

Would Buy Again? Probably (8.4) Probably Not (3.3)
Hydroplaning Resistance 8.7 5.4
Wet Traction 8.8 5.7
Cornering Stability 8.7 6.1
Dry Traction 9.0 7.2
Steering Response 8.7 6.4
Light Snow Traction 8.1 4.8
Deep Snow Traction 7.7 4.2
Ice Traction 7.3 3.9


FWIW, the Yokohama Geolandar H/T-S G051 has ratings pretty close to the H/L Alenza's, and I don't think the Geolandar is any great shakes in the rain and snow.

I recently had to have my AWD Dodge Quad cab towed. I had an argument with the old fashioned Holmes wrecker operator... He insisted that it could be towed with the rear down. Well it cannot. ...

Not to get off topic but...

what kinda of "AWD" Dodge truck do you have? I don't have any real experience w/ the fancier "AWD-Lockable in 4WD Hi or Low" transfer case in the Dakota. I drove one once and noticed that it has a "neutral" setting, much like a traditional "towable" transfer case. The "4WD" trucks utilize a (somewhat) traditional transfer case and can be towed in several different manners, including front up and rear down. (I know this 'cause i've been through 6 Dodge trannies and 3 Dodge transfer cases in about 6 years/250,000 miles)

Will

more on topic....

Dance, you could always try tearing the diff apart yourself. :twisted:

You could run it all winter as an ice/snow/salt car and see what happens. (I'm guessing that it isn't likely that you'll make it any worse) Come spring you could take the time to pull the diff and tear it apart and look inside. Maybe something will be obvious. In the mean timeyou could look for a used unit cheap and install it yourself.

Yeah...not easy....but less $ and plenty of "satisfaction" from DIY.

Sounds like a good excuse for a EOC mini-meet in yer driveway...just have everybody bring tools and jackstands.

Good luck.

Will

Tear it apart myself?? :???: :???: R U Crazy? I had to have my bro-in-law help me just change the diff. fluid. :D

So the EOC mini meet in my driveway.....are you offering to help? :razz: :razz:

Honestly....what you said is probably my plan, to drive it thru the winter and keep an eye out for a salvage yard to get a different diff. and either install it myself or have Honda do it as it was only 3 hrs. or less labor from their quote.

Not to get off topic but...

what kinda of "AWD" Dodge truck do you have? I don't have any real experience w/ the fancier "AWD-Lockable in 4WD Hi or Low" transfer case in the Dakota. I drove one once and noticed that it has a "neutral" setting, much like a traditional "towable" transfer case. The "4WD" trucks utilize a (somewhat) traditional transfer case and can be towed in several different manners, including front up and rear down. (I know this 'cause i've been through 6 Dodge trannies and 3 Dodge transfer cases in about 6 years/250,000 miles)

Will

2001 model Quad Dakota. AFAIK, it is the old Quadratrac unit from Jeep. There is no transfer case neutral. I have three settings: AWD, locked 4WD HI, and and locked 4WD Low. There is no 2WD or neutral options and it is electronically actuated. It is live all the time. It cannot be towed two wheels up without removing the driveshaft or must be on a flat bed.

It is one of the most sure-footed vehicles I have driven for any time, with only my father A8 Audi being moreso. It just does not slip or slide in the rain, snow or ice.

2001 model Quad Dakota. AFAIK, it is the old Quadratrac unit from Jeep. There is no transfer case neutral. I have three settings: AWD, locked 4WD HI, and and locked 4WD Low.

"Oh....I see" said the blind man.....as he peed into the wind....



"....its all coming back to me now!" :)

I was thinking of a customers '04-'05 Dakota .....similar knob on the dash but at 9o'clock there is a "N" label and a little light. 12o'clock is "AWD," 2 and 3 is 4LOC and 4LO....or some such. He tows his on a dolly behind a motorhome.

Thanks for the update/insight. :)


Dance, sounds like an adventure waiting to happen...I'll keep an eye out for diffs ! 8)

Will

Sweet!! :D

I haven't started looking into salvage yards yet, but if I could find one or if someone came across one for me that would be awesome!!

Thanks.

just read it for the first time and it definately sounds like the clutch packs in the AWD/4WD are burned up.

and just a note...AWD...4WD its all just marketing tags used by the manufactors..there is no set definition for each. call it what you will, just know how it works.

so my understanding is its basically like an LSD in the 4WD system. little clutch packs heat up and expand as you lose traction, they expand and engage the rear, cool down disengage. it should be an easy fix for any autoshop, pull and pop in a new set.

little clutch packs heat up and expand as you lose traction, they expand and engage the rear, cool down disengage.

It could very well be that the clutch part of the RT4WD needs replacing. However the operating mechanism is different. On this Honda unit, the activation is hydraulic, not thermal. The rear drive shaft, and the center shaft of the rear differential both drive small oil pumps, circulating oil. When the drive shaft pump turns faster, pressure builds up, moving a piston, engaging the clutch and sending power to the rear wheels. Once the rear wheels are spinning at the same rate as the front ones, the oil pressure returns to normal, and the clutch disengages.

paulj

so how are the hydrolics activated? electronicly?

^ Purely mechanical.

Is the CRV diff the same?? There's one for sale on ebay.

Is the CRV diff the same??

Good question. Check out Majestic (http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=CR-V&catcgry2=2004&catcgry3=5DR+EX+4WD&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=REAR+DIFFERENTIAL) for part # matches.
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/catimgs/14s9a01_b2010.gif

The front half (Assy#4 on the diagram- part#1357008 045 1 CASE KIT, T.C.D. $1380.02list ) looks the same but not the rearmost "gear half." Watch out for variations in gear ratios....even if they lok the same outside. Good price though (so far).

It looks like only the "minor" parts are available seperatly....the "good stuff" seems to come as an assembly. :(

Will

Well we had our first know here today and my 03 E is ALL over the place. I can pretty definitively say that the rear diff. isn't working and the tires are worthless in the snow too. I tried to turn into my driveway and the E just slid forward.....and I wasn't going too fast.....you practically have to crawl to turn in this thing right now.

I'm going to look into some salvage yards for a new diff. I would like to know for sure if the CRV is different, because there's one for sale on Ebay for only $75

I'm also going to need to get new tires cuz if I have to drive w/o the diff for this winter I'll need some good snow tires. I'm going to search for a good tire, but if anyone knows what the biggest tire you can fit on the E that looks real rugged...let me know. :D :D

I tried to turn into my driveway and the E just slid forward.....and I wasn't going too fast.....you practically have to crawl to turn in this thing right now.


When making this turn were you braking? In other words, when sliding forward, where the front wheels spinning, or locked? How much of a slope?

paulj

Sorry 2 hear the news! Wonder if the previous owner knew the deal before the sold it? Can't help on the part issue but as far as a tire goes, my heart rest with the Bridgestone Duelers. You've seen them and have yet to hear anything bad about them. I saw someone running it in an 18" to accommodate the new SC wheel and it looked real nice! Now that I know that, if I decide to flip the script and get the SC wheels, I'll be sticking with the Duelers. I sent you a PM stating you should be getting that snow. We only had a dusting here but the road were bad! Cars all over the place.

Chozn - I'm still guessing it was towed w/the back wheels down. That's my assumption.

I'd like to go with a nice beefy tire 235/70/16's possibly or 225.

Paul, straight no slope going about 5-7 mph, no braking tires were rolling slowely. The old tires just aren't any good for snow.

I really like the bridgestones but you gotta get the right ones....I like to deuler AT's or the BFG All Terrain T/A's.

In a situation like this tires are more important the AWD system.

Even if the rear wheels were getting power, you could have had problems making the turn. If the front wheels are spinning, they won't give you much directional control. So powered rear wheels would keep driving you forward, with the front ones acting like directionless skates.

A couple of years ago I got stuck in the snow on the side of gravel road. When the wheels were spinning, the front tended to drift further off the road, down the shoulder. I got out by laying traction mats behind the rear wheels, and backing up nearly straight. Once I was back a few feet I had space to move the mats to the front wheels, and then I was able to turn toward the higher center of the road. This was with tires that had poor snow traction (GY Integrity).

So in my experience the AWD system is most helpful when heading straight ahead, or in reverse. It does not help in making turns at slow speeds. With a heavier foot on the gas, it is possible to do a form of power drifting, using the powered rear wheels to kick the rear end around - but I wouldn't recommend it when control is important.

paulj

As to your statment that the car was a repo I can tell you that probibly the car was towed with a wheel lift as most or the repo agents use those with the controls in the cab of the truck. It's called a Hook and book. Use to do it. Then they probably dragged it back to their yard with the clutches trying to ingage all the way. At least you will need to change the clutch pack or find a used one. I don't think the gear ratio for the CRV is the same as the E.

Yes it being towed is several ppl's assumption. Changing out just the clutch might be more work then just finding a used diff. from a salvage yard and simply swapping out the whole assembly.

Thought I would post this as an FYI.....it is quite extensive but it a good resource for this information.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
REAR DIFFERENTIAL SYSTEM DESCRIPTION

Outline
The real-time 4WD Dual Pump System model has a hydraulic clutch and a differential mechanism in the rear differential assembly. Under normal conditions, the vehicle is driven by the front wheels. However, depending on to the driving force of the front wheels and the road conditions, the system instantly transmits appropriate driving force to the rear wheels without requiring the driver to switch between 2WD and 4WD. The switching mechanism between 2WD & 4WD is intergrated into the rear differential assembly to make the system light and compact.
In addition, the dual-pump system switches off the rear-wheel-drive force when braking in a forward gear. This allows the braking system to work properly on models equipped with ABS.
Construction
The rear diff. assembly consists of the torque control diff. case assembly and the rear diff. carrier assembly. The torque control diff. case assembly consists of the diff. clutch assembly, the companion flange, and the oil pump body assembly. The rear diff. carrier assembly consists of the diff. mechanism.
The diff. drive and driven gears are hypoid gears.
The oil pump body assembly consists of the front oil pump, the rear oil pump, the hydraulic control mechanism, and the clutch piston. The clutch piston has a disc spring that constantly provides the diff. clutch assembly with a preset torque to prevent abnormal sound.
The clutch guide in the diff. clutch assembly is connected to the propeller shaft via the companion flange, and it receives the driving force from the transfer assembly. The clutch guide rotates the clutch plate and the front oil pump in the oil pump body.
The clutch hub in the diff. clutch assembly has a clutch disc that is splined with the hypoid drive pinion gear.
The hypoid drive gear drives the rear oil pump.
The front and rear oil pumps are trochoidal pumps. The rear oil pump capacity is 2.5 % larger than the front oil pump to handle the rotation difference between the front and rear wheels caused by worn front tires and tight corner braking. The oil pumps are designed so the fluid intake works as a fluid discharge when the oil pumps rotate in reverse.
Honda dual pump fluid is used instead of diff. fluid.
Operation
When there is a difference in rotation speed between the front wheels (clutch guide) and rear wheels (hypoid driven gear), hydraulic pressure from the front and rear oil pumps engages the differential clutch, and drive force from the transfer assembly is applied to the rear wheels.
The hydraulic pressure control mechanism in the oil pump body selects 4WD mode when the vehicle is started abruptly, or when accelerating in a forward or reverse gear (causing rotation difference between the front and rear wheels), or when braking in reverse gear (when decelerating). It switches to 2WD mode when the vehicle is driven at a constant speed in forward or reverse gear (when there is no rotation difference between the front and rear wheels), or when braking in a forward gear (when decelerating).
To protect the system, the diff. clutch assembly is lubricated by hydraulic pressure generated by the oil pumps in both 4WD and 2WD modes. Also, the thermal switch relieves the hydraulic pressure on the clutch piston and cancels 4WD mode if the temperature of the diff. fluid rises above normal.

Also here are some illustrations on how to test your System. (Taken from 2003/04 Service Manual)

First pic is a DUAL PUMP SYSTEM FUNCTION TEST FOR Auto Trans. (sorry if the pic is blurred)

Starting and Accelerating in forward gears (4WD mode)
Note: Do not test repeatedly or the fluid will overheat.

1. Lift up the vehicle so all four wheels are off the ground.
2. Make a mark on either #1 or #2 propeller shaft.
3. Start the engine, and let it run until it warms up (the radiator fan comes on at least twice)
4. With the engine at idle, shift to the 1 position.
5. Apply the parking brake firmly to lock the rear wheels, and measure the time it takes to propeller shaft to rotate 10 times.
-If the measured time is more than 10 seconds, the 4WD system is normal.
-If the time is less than 10 seconds, there is a problem in the 4WD system. Check the diff. fuid. If the diff. fluid is normal, replace the torque control diff. case kit. (front pump portion)

***You can do the exact same test using the "Reverse" gear as well.

Here are some illustrations on how to test your System. (Taken from 2003/04 Service Manual)

First pic is a DUAL PUMP SYSTEM FUNCTION TEST FOR Auto Trans. (sorry if the pic is blurred)

Starting and Accelerating in forward gears (4WD mode)
Note: Do not test repeatedly or the fluid will overheat.

1. Lift up the vehicle so all four wheels are off the ground.
2. Make a mark on either #1 or #2 propeller shaft.
3. Start the engine, and let it run until it warms up (the radiator fan comes on at least twice)
4. With the engine at idle, shift to the 1 position.
5. Apply the parking brake firmly to lock the rear wheels, and measure the time it takes to propeller shaft to rotate 10 times.
-If the measured time is more than 10 seconds, the 4WD system is normal.
-If the time is less than 10 seconds, there is a problem in the 4WD system. Check the diff. fuid. If the diff. fluid is normal, replace the torque control diff. case kit. (front pump portion)

***You can do the exact same test using the "Reverse" gear as well.

This next test is for DECELERATING IN A FORWARD GEARS (2WD Mode)

1. Block the front wheels, raise the left rear wheel and support it with a safety stand.
2. Hold the tire, and turn it counterclockwise continuously for more than one rotation.
-If the rotation of the wheel does not gradually feel heavy while rotating, the 2WD system when decelerating in a forward gear is normal.
-If the rotation of the wheels gradually feels heavy, there is a problem in the system. Check the diff. fluid. If the fluid is normal, replace the torque control diff. case kit.

DECELERATING IN REVERSE GEARS (4WD Mode)
1. Block the front wheels, raise the left rear wheel and support it with a safety stand.
2. Hold the tire, and turn it clockwise continuously for more than one rotation.
-If the rotation of the wheel gradually feels heavy, the 4WD system when decelerating in reverse gear is normal.
-If the rotation of the wheel does not gradually feel heavy, there is a problem in the system. Check the diff. fluid. If the fluid is normal, replace the torque control diff. case kit.

This next test is for DECELERATING IN A FORWARD GEARS (2WD Mode)

1. Block the front wheels, raise the left rear wheel and support it with a safety stand.
2. Hold the tire, and turn it counterclockwise continuously for more than one rotation.
-If the rotation of the wheel does not gradually feel heavy while rotating, the 2WD system when decelerating in a forward gear is normal.
-If the rotation of the wheels gradually feels heavy, there is a problem in the system. Check the diff. fluid. If the fluid is normal, replace the torque control diff. case kit.

DECELERATING IN REVERSE GEARS (4WD Mode)
1. Block the front wheels, raise the left rear wheel and support it with a safety stand.
2. Hold the tire, and turn it clockwise continuously for more than one rotation.
-If the rotation of the wheel gradually feels heavy, the 4WD system when decelerating in reverse gear is normal.
-If the rotation of the wheel does not gradually feel heavy, there is a problem in the system. Check the diff. fluid. If the fluid is normal, replace the torque control diff. case kit.

Dance, is it working?

Dance,

Thanks for posting that info! :)


Will

Chozn - Haven't had a chance to do this test yet. Gonna do it on Sat.

Will - you're welcome. I also have a diagram on the working components of the diff. but I need to scan them into the computer. I will post them soon. :D

That service manual us worth every penny!

That service manual us worth every penny!

Yeah....can't believe I haven't gotten one yet. I'm waaay too cheap sometimes. :-(

Will

Yeah I thought $75 was a lot until I seen how thick it was. Easily as thick as a major dictionary or encyclopedia!! It's very extensive and elaborate on what it covers. I'd say if you are on the fence to go forward and get it....I think you wouldn't regret it once it arrived in the mail :D :D

I'm test driving 03/04 E EX and some of them are AWD. How do I test the AWD system so I can confirm there are no issues? Is there a way to do this on dry roads?

Thanks for any advice.

Kelvin

Kelvin,

I'm not aware of a "test mode" or procedure for the AWD.

If I understand it, Honda AWD is a rather simple hydraulic system that transfers power from the normal FWD to the rear wheels when the front wheels spin at a different rate than the rear wheels. You may want to look at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_wheel_drive).

Best of luck.

Check out the info from DanceTilUDrop above. [edit: posts merged]

Good stuff. :-)

Will

I suppose then, in theory, one could carefully put the front of the car up on short, wooden 2x4 blocks, so that the front wheels were off the ground. Then start it up and give it a bit of gas. The front wheels would then spin freely.

If the AWD is working, the rear wheels should notice that they're not rotating at the same speed as the front wheels, and therefore engage, causing the car to move forward, knocking it off the blocks in the process.

Is that a correct assumption (nevermind the safety/practicality of the experiment)?

- Jeff

There appear to be two issues with the AWD
- if the rear differential makes noise, especially on turns, the oil that is shared by the differential and the AWD mechanism probably needs changing. Changing it at a 30,000 mile interval rather than the one specified by Honda is probably a good idea.

- if the E has been improperly towed, the AWD mechanism might be damaged. We are guessing that DanceTilUDrop's E was towed with 2 wheels on the ground by a repo man, and this may have damaged the clutch pack in the AWD mechanism.

So, if the Element is quiet during the test drive, and there is no history, or other indication, of improper towing, the AWD probably is ok.

On dry pavement, accelerating hard from a stop on a hill, might produce enough front wheel spin to send power to the rear wheels. But it may be hard to distinguish between the front wheels suddenly getting traction, and the rear ones kicking in. I'm not sure that the seller would be happy with this kind of testing.

paulj

Paulj has given you some good advice.

Another data point, would be this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7dVFY5CxT0).

As with most Internet data points, I would retain a healthy amount of skepticism when I viewed it. At the same time, it is a good illustration that not all AWD, 4WD, or real time driving systems are the same.

Best of luck.

I'm going to look at Subarus :)

Place nose of Element against a brick wall.

Mash accelerator to the floor.

If the rear end starts jumping up and down, you have AWD.

Paulj has given you some good advice.

Another data point, would be this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7dVFY5CxT0).

As with most Internet data points, I would retain a healthy amount of skepticism when I viewed it. At the same time, it is a good illustration that not all AWD, 4WD, or real time driving systems are the same.

Best of luck.

makes me want a Subaru even more now, i've always liked them. I wonder how the E would do?:rolleyes:

Prior to getting my E, I gave the Forester XT some thought. Even though I live in a good sized city, I was concerned about service -- primarily because there aren't too many dealers close to me.

Note that, depending on your drivetrain choice, Subarus "Symmetrical AWD" system is actualy 4 different systems.

Best of luck.

IMHO....Subaru has a better AWD system (no matter which system you get).

My wife's Forester XS is incredebile in the snow....the rear LSD is awsome. You can't really tell which wheels are slippin' or grippin'....but it just goes like hell! It seems to react much faster/less slippage than the Honda system.

But.....is is more cramed/crowded/narrow than the Element...plus a bit more $.

She likes her Roo....I like my Donk-E....life is good. :)

Will

One reason the Subaru seems quicker is that it is engaged all the time....It used to be, when I had my Outbacks, 80/20 but now I think it's something like 70/30.
And then it just transfers power if one wheel starts slipping.

One reason the Subarus all perform better in that lame video is because it's a shameless Subaru propaganda video - duh. Watch until the end, where the narrator says all vehicles were driven by "Subaru sales persons". :lol:

I'd love to see some panty-waist Subaru sales person try this factory test track: :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxdX0au-BNA&NR

One reason the Subarus all perform better in that lame video is because it's a shameless Subaru propaganda video - duh. Watch until the end, where the narrator says all vehicles were driven by "Subaru sales persons". :lol:

I'd love to see some panty-waist Subaru sales person try this factory test track: :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxdX0au-BNA&NR
That narrators English sucked!:mad: I know he said "off road" and "extreme: and I think I heard him say "I drive an Element". But jeez, what a mouth full of marbles.

EDIT: I just watched that thing again. Did I spot Nebraska Bob driving that ugly truck?

so whats the outcome?

Verdict so far is 4wd doesn't work....hoping to get a new/used diff. to swap out sometime in the near future.

Once that's done we will see if that is exactly the problem (hopefully so) ......could also be the transfer case.

More than likely the diff. replacement will do the trick.

I have noticed that I can get alot of front wheel spin in wet/snow conditions, but the E seems to magically move forward anyway. I guess that's the rear wheels pushing me. All I know is that I used to have to back up my driveway with my front wheel drive car - even with snow tires, but was able to drive up it the normal way with the E with the stock tires and without shoveling.

I read the sticky and a number of posts debating the Honda 4wd system and I am still left with a naive question.

Having significant experience only with Subarus in addition to the new E, these companies and others are pushing variations of real-time 4wd, or all wheel drive. It seems like a common complaint that I share is that you no longer get to manually select 4wd, the manufacturers have turned that decision over to a computer. I liked my old Subaru GL Wagon that had a lever you engaged to get into 4wd when you wanted it.

Now there can only be two reasons why the change away from manual selection, cost, and / or performance. If it is cost, wouldn't it essentially cost the same to produce an Element with a simple switch that could engage the equipment you have already invested in? If it is performance, does that outweigh the piece of mind you have when you actually choose to engage the 4wd yourself? Perhaps more consumers are intimidated by manual selection / engagement than do find it a compelling necessity?

I thoroughly enjoy the new Element and have been driving it all over in the snow and ice so far with no complaints besides that I like to choose these things myself.
Thoughts?

It would be nice if it had a 3 way switch. 1, 4wd , 2 auto, 3 off. so any body could have it the way they want or are comfrterable with. not to be confuzzed with a comfertable top. woo hoo riden around with the top down!!!!

It has more to do with The MPG figures than anything else.

By having the system turn on only when it's needed, then turn off. The miles per gallon are effected less. It also reduces overall weight, to accomplish the same end result. The Honda system is by no means perfect, but has specific advantages over other systems. Having come from the world of Shift leaver 4X4 trucks, I had my doubts. The system has worked seamlessly, and flawlessly, much to my surprise.

Although I would not recommend it for heavy off road use, I would for light off road and street use.

Dom

It would be nice to have selector like on my '97 RAV4 where I can lock the center differential for low speed AWD. It has gotten her our of many deep snow scrapes.....:roll::razz:

It would be nice to have selector like on my '97 RAV4 where I can lock the center differential for low speed AWD. It has gotten her our of many deep snow scrapes.....:roll::razz:

that'd be my only wish as well, i like how it works now where i don't have to think about it. but when it gets ugly i'd like a manual LOCK over the clutches engaging and disengaging as an option. i've overheated them before and only had FWD, but that was after spending some time on a frozen lake on a skid-pad... so i can't get too mad at the car for me being a complete dumbass.

It has more to do with The MPG figures than anything else.

By having the system turn on only when it's needed, then turn off. The miles per gallon are effected less. It also reduces overall weight, to accomplish the same end result. The Honda system is by no means perfect, but has specific advantages over other systems.



I think it would be understandable that MPG would be less when 4x4 would be engaged, but then again, that would be the operator's choice.

So based on what you are saying, there is less weight, since a shift-based system will have to include more hardware. What are the specific advantages you have experienced when comparing to shift-based systems? Are they performance oriented, or convenience oriented? Thanks.

I think it would be understandable that MPG would be less when 4x4 would be engaged, but then again, that would be the operator's choice.

So based on what you are saying, there is less weight, since a shift-based system will have to include more hardware. What are the specific advantages you have experienced when comparing to shift-based systems? Are they performance oriented, or convenience oriented? Thanks.

Two totally different systems. The system in the Element is not a true 4 x 4 system at all. It's basically just emergency traction augmentation. When the system detects front-wheel slippage, a hydraulic pump temporarily causes the rear differential to engage, giving you "emergency" 4 wheel traction. As soon as the front wheels stop slipping again, the rear differential disengages again and your back to 2 wheel drive. A true 4x4 allows you to switch to 4 wheel drive and stay there, for off road conditions. The Honda system has almost zero impact on mpg, as 99% of the time it is disengaged.

I think it would be understandable that MPG would be less when 4x4 would be engaged, but then again, that would be the operator's choice.

So based on what you are saying, there is less weight, since a shift-based system will have to include more hardware. What are the specific advantages you have experienced when comparing to shift-based systems? Are they performance oriented, or convenience oriented? Thanks.


Yes that's essentially correct. That and the fact that it's off the greatest percentage of the time. Like mkh told you.

As for the performance/convenience aspect, It's one in the same. It's only on when you need it. It does what it was designed to do very well. It's not like any American 4X4 system you have ever used. After all, when you think about it, 4X4 systems do nothing to help you stop. They only help you go. When do you need it? When the drive wheels slip. Does it help you at all after the drive wheels have found traction? NO . . . > So what's the point of having it engaged? There is no point to it at all. People just think they are more secure with it turned on. The reality is, they are just wasting resources. Having run 4X4's for the vast majority of my life, I understand how they work. I learned to drive in my dad's 1948 Willy's http://www.anrdoezrs.net/image-3364153-10546635Jeepster (http://www.anrdoezrs.net/click-3364153-10546635?url=http%3A%2F%2Fclassiccars.com%2F112378 .car). He had one of the few 4 wheel drive models that were produced.

I got to plow his gas station every Snow day! I loved putting it in four wheel drive, and pushing snow. I prayed for snow Every day!! LOL

He always told me, to take it out of four wheel drive, when you were not plowing. ( In those days you had to get out and disengage the hubs )

It saves gas, He would say. At the time I remember changing the pump price, it had just gone up that day to an unheard of price of twelve cents per gallon. LOL

Dom

Yes that's essentially correct. That and the fact that it's off the greatest percentage of the time. Like mkh told you.

As for the performance/convenience aspect, It's one in the same. It's only on when you need it. It does what it was designed to do very well. It's not like any American 4X4 system you have ever used. After all, when you think about it, 4X4 systems do nothing to help you stop. They only help you go. When do you need it? When the drive wheels slip. Does it help you at all after the drive wheels have found traction? NO . . . > So what's the point of having it engaged? There is no point to it at all. People just think they are more secure with it turned on. The reality is, they are just wasting resources. Having run 4X4's for the vast majority of my life, I understand how they work. I learned to drive in my dad's 1948 Willy's http://www.anrdoezrs.net/image-3364153-10546635Jeepster (http://www.anrdoezrs.net/click-3364153-10546635?url=http%3A%2F%2Fclassiccars.com%2F112378 .car). He had one of the few 4 wheel drive models that were produced.

I got to plow his gas station every Snow day! I loved putting it in four wheel drive, and pushing snow. I prayed for snow Every day!! LOL

He always told me, to take it out of four wheel drive, when you were not plowing. ( In those days you had to get out and disengage the hubs )

It saves gas, He would say. At the time I remember changing the pump price, it had just gone up that day to an unheard of price of twelve cents per gallon. LOL

Dom
I have to laugh.:-) Mrs. IRV had a Ford Expedition prior to her present car. One morning we had two or three inches of snow here and she put it in 4X4.

I still love her.:lol:

Thanks for the replies. I suspect that this is ultimately really a calculated decision based on consumer preferences. While some of us like stick shift, and knowing that we put the car in 4wd ourselves, others are intimidated.

A magical on-demand 4WD that just comes on probably suits many more tastes than something that requires a decision, some knowledge or skill, etc.

As for the MPG issue, I would think that Subarus would have mileage down in the mid teens if rotating all four all the time were truly that big of a drain.

I had a 2001 Forester, auto-trans. When you took your foot off the gas it would slow down as if each wheel were attached to a generator. There was no such thing as gliding to a stop - it was more like regenerative braking without the benefit of increasing mileage. Grrr.

I appreciate the fact that the E's 4WD system is LIGHT, intended for LIGHT DUTY, and is available automatically as needed, and disengaged most of the time.

I use the Element for trips up to Lake Tahoe and I am simply looking for the additional traction of the 4WD when on ICY roads and going up a certain ICY hill. The rest of the time when I am down in the Bay, I do not need the 4WD at all. I am happy to not have to carry 'heavy' heavy duty 4WD gear in the Element year-round.

I can see the use of the manual option for 4x4 LOW in a vehicle designed for heavy duty 4x4 capabilities (e.g. Landcruiser), but why bother with engaging the 4WD manually when the automatic engagement will be better capable than your thumb at catching the moments when the 4WD is required.

I find it curious that you what a high degree of control over the 4WD system, but you have an automatic transmission E...

Thanks for the replies. I suspect that this is ultimately really a calculated decision based on consumer preferences. While some of us like stick shift, and knowing that we put the car in 4wd ourselves, others are intimidated.

A magical on-demand 4WD that just comes on probably suits many more tastes than something that requires a decision, some knowledge or skill, etc.

As for the MPG issue, I would think that Subarus would have mileage down in the mid teens if rotating all four all the time were truly that big of a drain.


It has little to do with skill levels. and more to do with efficiency/cost.

You and I would be hard pressed to be more effective at applying the 4X4 selection, than this system is. That's not the issue here. The issue is personal preference.

I understand that some people are outside of a personal comfort zone, when surrendering control to a machine. Other people are ecstatic !

Personally, I was somewhat skeptical myself. It was not until my wife, successfully drove her E up our our driveway, with over a foot of unploughed snow, and I got stuck. That I realized the advantage and capability of the system. It was not long after that I traded my car for an Element also. Coming from the old school, My belief was that 4X4 with standard transmission was the unbeatable combination. Complete control at all times.

It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks! But I am willing to learn. Others are not.

Dom

Suzuki has a nice system on some of their cheapest vehicles...

3-Mode Intelligent All-Wheel Drive (i-AWD)
A highly sophisticated drive system that allows the driver to select how power is delivered to all four wheels depending on road conditions-- from 2-wheel-drive for maximum fuel efficiency, to all-wheel-drive for rainy days, to 4-wheel-drive for maximum traction on ice and snow.

Suzuki has a nice system on some of their cheapest vehicles...

3-Mode Intelligent All-Wheel Drive (i-AWD)
A highly sophisticated drive system that allows the driver to select how power is delivered to all four wheels depending on road conditions-- from 2-wheel-drive for maximum fuel efficiency, to all-wheel-drive for rainy days, to 4-wheel-drive for maximum traction on ice and snow.


It's an interesting System, when it's working. Several owners in this area have had trouble with the system. The dealers always claim it's owners abuse. So no help is offered from Suzuki.

Other owners dislike the time delay (http://www.suzuki-forums.com/suzuki-sx4-forum/26765-i-awd-button-behavior.html) for the system to engage.

This from another owner: I just brought a 2009 SX4 Crossover Tech Package in Nov. 16, 2009. The tag says 21/28 on the feul economy. But I have been using it for the pass week and the mile marker goes down to 16 mpg local and only 20 mpg on the highway. I expected to be at lease 21/28. Other then that the car is great. If anyone is looking for a fuel efficient car I would not recommend this. Also the cloth seat cover seems too thin.

So I can see that Element owners are not the only ones with complaints.

My Suzuki motorcycle was very well taken care of by the same dealer. Every Issue I had with the bike was fixed under warranty. So I know it's not a dealer issue.

Dom

Other owners dislike the time delay (http://www.suzuki-forums.com/suzuki-sx4-forum/26765-i-awd-button-behavior.html) for the system to engage.


While the Honda system works fine, I'd glady wait 4seconds for a button to engauge a low speed "locked on" 4 wheel drive feature. I'd even sit and wait a few min for a "low range" !

I find it curious that you what a high degree of control over the 4WD system, but you have an automatic transmission E...

Alas, Honda has made this decision for us with the recent 2010 models, although I have read on here of a handful of people getting a 2010 manual that somehow made it through production.

My driving sounds much like yours in the Bay area, and it is basically why I chose this car. I am not complaining so much as I am legitimately interested in the reasons for all the different "flavors" of 4x4 on the market these days. the element has been handling snow, ice, and nastiness quite well around the Northwest this winter and it does everything I had hoped for.

I still think it may have more to do with cost savings and customer accessibility than actual performance though.

I still think it may have more to do with cost savings and customer accessibility than actual performance though.

Interesting thread. I too have wished in the past for a manually selectable low range, but don't have much concern anymore here in Raleigh. :-D

Don't overlook the possible input from the legal dept in Honda's design decision. Equipping a car sold in [litigious] USA with a good awd/4wd system under manual control leaves you potentially open to arguments that you did not properly train the driver or that your manual didn't adequately explain it. Auto function eliminates that argument, and leaves you only having to defend the design itself. This is more controllable. Just a thought. :roll:

I usually drive Jeep's and have been driving 4X4 suv's and trucks for the past twenty years. I almost bought a Hyundai because the awd/4wd system had a lock switch to control the system. After reading the specs and looking very close at the system I found out that the locking feature only worked to 19mph. Almost as soon as you got rolling it would go back to auto mode. Without a transfer case and system to stop wheel binding, this is the best it will get. Most vehicles are going to a system close to the Honda's design that uses a PTO shaft off the front wheel drive trans. This is less weight and cheaper to build and in most cases all you will need for normal driving. My wife wanted to drive my Jeep when the snow hit, but found out that the Element really does get around good in the snow. A few years back I was at the bottom of a steep hill with all of the traffic backed up because a Jeep could not get over the hill. I went up the hill with a couple of other drivers to try and get the Jeep unstuck. We found a young lady in the Jeep that did not have a clue on engaging the 4wd system. We got it into 4wd and it went fine. This would of been a case where the Honda system would just worked and she would never know how she got up the hill.

I’ll add an observation. In the Honda all wheel drive system, the front end has to lose traction before the rear end will assist. It is noticeable if you are in an off camber situation. Depending on the grade, the front end will drift a few inches before the rear wheels assist. This was almost enough to get me into a ditch this winter. I do agree with most, the system is adequate.

is there anyway i can check if my 4wd works? is there any way to check?

is there anyway i can check if my 4wd works? is there any way to check?


Yes there is.....Start with post #2 in this tread.

Real Time 4WD Explained (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32069)

Is there a reason for thinking it might not be working?

The most common maintenance need is changing the fluid. The symptom is a grinding noise when turning a sharp corner. If all is quiet back there, it is quite likely that the 4WD system is normal.

If there is snow or ice on the ground, you could put the front wheels on a slippery patch, and try to back off. If you feel the front wheels spin, and then you start to move, there is a good chance that the rear ones got power and moved you. Having an observer on either side helps.

You can also make some donuts in an empty snow covered parking lot. Hard acceleration with the steering turned will activate the 4WD and produce a bit of RWD like spin. You may even be able to see the rear wheels spin in your outside rearview mirror.

A few years back I was at the bottom of a steep hill with all of the traffic backed up because a Jeep could not get over the hill. I went up the hill with a couple of other drivers to try and get the Jeep unstuck. We found a young lady in the Jeep that did not have a clue on engaging the 4wd system. We got it into 4wd and it went fine. This would of been a case where the Honda system would just worked and she would never know how she got up the hill.

I think this probably sums it up. the wider appeal may be the greatest motivator for Honda. Does the Pilot use the same 4x4 system as the Element and CRV?

Or just find a dirt road. Stop, get out and look at the road under the tires. Then get in and stomp the gas to the floor. The front wheels should spin. that will cause one of the rears to spin also when it kicks in. Stop as soon as you feel the wheel spin stop. Get out and take a look at the dirt.

You will see the the dirt got moved by one or both of the rear wheels.

Dom

i'm a fan of brake torquing, and inducing an oversteer condition resulting in changing direction multiple times. (blowing doughnuts) tougher with good tires now...

where is the container thing for the 4wd so i can see if i need to fill it up??

Check the differential 'sticky' under ' Maintenance and Service'

go find some mud.......................if you get stuck, it's not working

go find some mud.......................if you get stuck, it's not working
not necessarily! If you both front and rear wheels in the mud, you can end up loosing traction at both ends. There have been plenty of threads where people ask, 'how come I got stuck in a mud hole'. That's why I suggested putting the front wheels on the slick spot, not both right wheels.

I think this probably sums it up. the wider appeal may be the greatest motivator for Honda. Does the Pilot use the same 4x4 system as the Element and CRV?

no, the Pilot uses something more complicated.

What I would like is a “4wd Active” light. Our first element was a 2003 EX 4WD, but the only way you knew it back then was that it had a skylight. In 2004 they came out with the “Real Time 4WD” sticker. Now, I'm loving the new 4WD emblem! We sold our 2003 after 2 years or so, but now I’m back for more! I just got my 2009 about a month ago. This time it will be My daily driver instead of my wife’s.

Back to the topic, and forgive me if this is a feature now that I have not discovered yet, but what about a simple light on the dash that told you when the 4WD system was active? This would just be a nice comfort, and reminder as to why you paid for the system in the first place. It would also let you know if it was NOT working when you thought it should be. Again, sorry if they have added some kind of indicator light.

Glad to be back in the communitE!

no, the Pilot uses something more complicated.

Exactly!! Those of you that want a switch- time to trade up!
The Pilot and Ridgeline use an electronic system with sensors that allows you to lock in 4wd while your transmission is in low.

You do have to keep speed below 10 mph or so.

A Honda tech told me that the system was only active for a few seconds up to a few minutes of time in normal condition. We would see the indicator flicker on and off and wonder if the light or 4wd system was working the right way.

I stomped on the gas when we had snow in the street and my buddy confirmed that my rear wheels were making "rooster tails" of snow. I also opened the door and looked back and saw them for myself. Actually as someone pointed out, you can also see with your mirror. It makes no noise when switching from 2WD to 4WD so a visual test is a must.

To all,

I apologize if this has already been posted, but I found it while surfing Google one day after I took my "AWD" E up to Kennedy Meadows to try it out in the snow and some light off-roading.

http://www.rubicon-trail.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html

What I found was disconcerting but I'm glad I found out now before I actually got stuck somewhere. Apparently not much power gets diverted to the rear wheels during AWD operation, at least not enough to unstick a stuck E going uphill in either loose dirt or snow as is evidenced by the video. I also witnessed this as I was trying to climb up a not so steep grade of dirt and watched as my front wheels spun while the rears did nothing.

That being said, on flat ground in about bumper deep snow the rears worked fine, clawing away to find traction. I am assuming that if I was on flat ground in the sand it would work as well.

Honda doesn't give much info about "real-time AWD", but I can only assume that the power that is transfered to the rears during a loss of traction event isn't enough to pull a car as heavy as an E up a grade unless the car is already in motion.

Either way I'm still glad that I have AWD, if nothing else it keeps me going in a straight line if I'm a little reckless going around corners on wet or dry pavement, and I won't be going off-road any time soon with the E anyway.

That video was posted awhile ago and they left the traction control on and the CRV didn't want to climb up the ramp. I live in the snow and steep hills here and I have spun all 4 tires and have never been stuck with the E. That being said the real time 4X4 system will have around a 10% slip between the front and back axles for what I remember reading.

maybe my AWD is broken? i have repeatedly gotten stuck in snow and mud where the front tires were spinning with no spinning in the back. has anyone else been suspicious as to whether the AWD on their car works?

should i hear or feel something when the AWD kicks in? i got stuck twice coming in a plowed driveway with short snow banks on either side, and once in 4-5 inches of snow. recently my front wheels got stuck in a tiny stream. we put boards, mats, etc to give the front wheels traction but they continued to spin. the back wheels never did. couldn't go forwards or backwards, just STUCK!

my friend has a 1980's VW westfalia camper and it has AWD and she was fine in both situations.

wondering if i just might be missing something (like needing to turn something on)?

thanks,

pam

Welcome and your Es 4x4 system is a dual pump system with clutches in the rear and will always slip when lightly accelerated and both differentials are the open type meaning the the traction goes to the tire that has the least traction. The way to test your system is get it on a slippery surface and gas it hard and you should feel it move or have someone watch from the outside to see if the wheels are spinning. It would be better to have 2 watching as it might be spinning on one side and not the other. the system is never a 100% lock up system as it has to see the differential in between the pumps.