All wheel drive question

The other day I had the unfortunate experience of backing off the edge of a driveway on a steep hill. I had the drivers side front wheel on the concrete driveway and the other three wheels on the grass. When I tried to drive back onto the driveway the front wheel on the concrete would just spin and the other wheels did nothing. I had to be pulled back onto the drive by a Ford pickup. "Embarassing" :oops: . Why did the all wheel drive not engage? I went ot the dealer and got what I think is a poor explanation.

Funny you should say that !
I had a similar experience in observing a brand new CRV stuck in snow with the front wheels stuck in a rut and the rear passenger wheel spinning !!!
He had to rock himself out. :?:

I forgot to ask you for that explanation you got from the dealer,
I would love to hear :roll:

Hershey, the dealer (young service guy) said that there must be forward motion in order to engage the other wheels drive gears. If you are just sitting still and spinning the wheels, the other wheel will not engage.

Also, I should have mentioned that the spinning driver side front wheel was the least loaded or the wheel with least wheel on it due the angle of the hill.

Sounds like a locker (locking differential) was in need there :)

Hershey, the dealer (young service guy) said that there must be forward motion in order to engage the other wheels drive gears. If you are just sitting still and spinning the wheels, the other wheel will not engage.

Also, I should have mentioned that the spinning driver side front wheel was the least loaded or the wheel with least wheel on it due the angle of the hill.


The rear wheels are dependant on oil pressure to engage the clutch. Unless you were really spinning the front wheels (where the pressure is generated), there would not have been enough pressure generated activate the clutch for the rear wheels. I'm sure this is a very crude explanation, but I hope I got the point across.

is clear. this so-called all-wheel (also advertised on the window sticker as 4 wheel drive) can easily get stuck! Sounds like misleading advertising to me. The reason i added the 4wd when I bought my E was so when I go to the mountains in wintertime I would not have to put on the chains so soon. However, if I'm parked in a snowy carlot, it appears I will be in no better position than if I only had 2wd. Shame on you Honda!

Hmmm, this is interesting. I am ordering a 4X4 Element in 5 speed manual because we live in the mountains and I thought that when it snowed, I could use it to get up my snow filled driveway. I use my XTerra in 4X4 and it does it fine.

Is an automatic any better/worse in the snow when the 4X4 is engaged in a Element?

Thanks, Jim

I just had the opportunity to take my E up a grassy hill that always used to give my front wheel drive minivan fits. I'd have to take a running start at it, and spin the wheels like crazy in order to get any kind of traction on the grass (didn't do the lawn any good, either). This time, I aimed the E at the hill and very neatly cruised right up. I could feel the 4WD engaging and disengaging as the front wheels started to slip, but no significant wheel spinning happened at all.

Sweet.

[quote:80462c22a5="reedpc"]I just had the opportunity to take my E up a grassy hill that always used to give my front wheel drive minivan fits. I'd have to take a running start at it, and spin the wheels like crazy in order to get any kind of traction on the grass (didn't do the lawn any good, either). This time, I aimed the E at the hill and very neatly cruised right up. I could feel the 4WD engaging and disengaging as the front wheels started to slip, but no significant wheel spinning happened at all.

Sweet.[/quote:80462c22a5]

reedpc - your post has made me feel a lot better about the AWD. Two thumbs way up.

I think the real time 4WD system on the Element is more of an upgrade from regular front-wheel drive and will help out in snow/wet conditions when the front wheels start to slip when moving. It's nowhere near the capability of a true 4WD system like the Xterra or a Jeep has, and I don't think it pretends to be.

What I find kind of disappointing is reading some posts on here and hearing stories of the system not even engaging when it seems clear it should. Do the planets have to be aligned in a certain way before the thing will engage?

[quote:823cd25984="wr70beh"]I think the real time 4WD system on the Element is more of an upgrade from regular front-wheel drive and will help out in snow/wet conditions when the front wheels start to slip when moving. It's nowhere near the capability of a true 4WD system like the Xterra or a Jeep has, and I don't think it pretends to be.[/quote:823cd25984]

Agreed. If you need full-blown off-road capability, the E is probably not the car you want. If you want some enhanced sure-footedness when it comes to crappy weather and occasional less-than-ideal traction conditions, then the 4wd/Awd/whatever is a definite plus.

oh come on! we aren't talking about "full blown" off road (whatever that means), I expected more than a system that won't work from a stand-still or if only one wheel is dangling. honda should be more up front about the limitations, and NEVER refer to it as 4wheel drive. if fact I'm going to have to change my sig lines now. (from 4wd equipped).

http://4x4abc.com/4WD101/4WD101_intro.html

A great site for "what is my 4WD, and what can it do"

Real Time 4WD is code for 'effectively useless' for a former Jeep owner and offroader like myself. Read what the rubicon man has to say.

This account reaffirms what I've been told before: Honda's AWD is a joke.
Even if it worked perfectly, I'm not sure I'd opt for it. I just don't need 4 or AWD. Come to think of it, I bet at least 3/4 of AWD Element owners don't really need it either. If you know how to drive (and stick to normal roads) FWD will get you through just fine.
My fiancee's Tracker has 4WD when you need it. We live around Toronto and use it maybe five times a year, but I can't think of one time when I would have been stuck w/out it. Am I glad it's there? Ya, I guess. Could I live w/out it? Absolutely. And that's on a light, RWD vehicle (when it's in 2WD). FWD is way better in the snow. I just don't see the need. And if it's a questionable system on top of all that, then there's no question, I'll take the 2WD and put the money saved into a set of nice summer wheels and tires and put snows on the OEM wheels.

[quote:3e7ba1187f="Rockford"] FWD is way better in the snow.[/quote:3e7ba1187f]

I don't think universally that's true. Not after 3 winters with a FWD PT Cruiser. It slid as bad as my '68 Chevelle SS did with slicks. I could drive it, but it was constant adjustment to keep it sliding centrally. It wasn't the tires either, because I had four brand new, best rated snow tires on it last winter. There must have been a bad combination of weight distribution, steering and suspension - it was the first FWD I've ever had that slid like that.

I'll be happy if my AWD EX drives as well as my previous FWD's did in the snow.

In my view, the AWD system is not a "joke." Most times, people do not need a 4wd system, and it is more economical and environmentally friendly to have only fwd operating because that's all that's needed in the given circumstances.

But when we need the Honda AWD, it works. We climb. Frequently. The AWD in our (prior) CR-V kicked in and helped going up wet and snowy pavement and curves, crawling up and around in mountains (mostly in the Sierras, Rockies, Cascades, and Olympics) over mixed terrain, and even crossing streambeds, at times impressing others with dedicated 4wd systems. This system is more than enough for the average person, and I'm more concerned about the Element clearance (6.7 vs. 8.1) than the AWD system (and we think we'll be able to compensate).

Of course, I'm not going to attempt to ascend a roadless rocky mountain incline where one (or more) wheel was going to be leaving contact with the surface in the slow crawl to the top, or on a similar descent (no low gear). I'm also not going to use it in soft sand. I'd purchase a truck-based SUV (or perhaps a VW Toureg) with a locking differential for that. But how many people are actually using their vehicles for these purposes? And, in my experience, those who do engage in these activities (they are fun, after all) know precisely what kind of vehicle they need - a stiff frame and true 4 wheel drive. They aren't purchasing Elements or other car-based SUVs.

On a separate point, in my opinion, all wheel drive Hondas also tend to have better weight distibution than fwd-only versions.

Regarding snow, Car and Driver did an interesting comparison of vehicles with both 4wd (Audis and Mercedes) and fwd options. I'll try to find the link. If I remember correctly, 4wd helps mainly getting to the top of an incline, but the added weight increases stopping distance substantially. The conclusion was that snow tires were a better use of the money than purchasing 4wd.

EDIT: The edit to my above post took.

I live in Hamilton Ontario

The day after I bought my "E-awd" we experienced a major snow/ice storm (April 1,2003 for those who remember). I came out in the morning to fine my NEW "E" covered in ice and snow and honestly thought about not going it to work....

However, I scraped off the snow, warmed up the beast and headed off to work (normally a 50 minute commute).

It took me two hours to get to work as it did everyone else that day.

On the unplowed road that I live on my Element tracked like a tank and I even blew through a 4 foot snow drift. On the icey 4 lane road (403/407) I never felt the tires slip/slide loose traction at all. I could feel the AWD working and felt good in how the system acted and reacted to driving conditions.

I did however see three 4X4 in accidents that morning. A Ford Escape took off over a ditch and took out a hydro pole. A Toyota spun into the centre wall on the 407 and completely ripped off his driver rear wheel (found a 1/4 mile up the road, and a Chevy blazer had done a rollover in the median. They were all driving too fast and beyond the limits of the vehicle and road conditions.

I don't plane on following a Jeep up a mountain trial, but for safe commuting, fun driving on back roads and snow covered roads the Element has proven itself for me.

BTW, I've got almost 17,000 miles (20,000KM) on mine thanks to a recent trip from Hamilton to Calgary and back.

FWD tend to fail on steep snow covered mountain roads. Rear or front wheel only drive cars get stuck constantly and litter the big hills when the snow is over 4-6 inches and the roads aren't yet plowed. You need AWD, 4WD, Quad drive etc... when you travel/live in the Pocono mountains in Pennsylvania in the winter.. Anybody who ski's or lives there already knows this.

I've come to realize that this is really what I need AWD (or 4WD) for, and that is snow travel. Roads don't get plowed quickly around where I live in the cases where we do get snow, and I hate being "trapped" inside when it snows. From what I've read on here I've got nothing to worry about.

[quote:bcaea3d988="Slowhand"][quote:bcaea3d988="Rockford"] FWD is way better in the snow.[/quote:bcaea3d988]

I don't think universally that's true. Not after 3 winters with a FWD PT Cruiser. It slid as bad as my '68 Chevelle SS did with slicks. I could drive it, but it was constant adjustment to keep it sliding centrally. It wasn't the tires either, because I had four brand new, best rated snow tires on it last winter. There must have been a bad combination of weight distribution, steering and suspension - it was the first FWD I've ever had that slid like that.

I'll be happy if my AWD EX drives as well as my previous FWD's did in the snow.[/quote:bcaea3d988]

Well, I gues there's an exception to every rule. I must say though, mid and rear-engined cars aside, I've never heard of that. It just stands to reason that having the bulk of the car's weight (i.e. motor & drivetrain) over the drive wheels is going to help traction.
You'd be happy with an AWD system that performs only as well as your previous FWD's? I wouldn't, and that probably why I wouldn't opt for it.
I don't want to make it sound like I'm knocking the AWD. I've never even driven an Element - any Element! But I've been driving in and around Southern Ontario for more than 15 years and I can't ever remember a time when FWD and snow tires would have come up short. Hell a few years ago when the mayor of Toronto was screaming for help from the freaking Army beacuse the snow was so bad I was out in my winter beater: a Niasan Micra w/ all seasons. Ya it was tricky, but by no mean was I stranded or stuck. So that alone makes me biased against AWD and 4WD. For me and type of driving I do most, I just don't see the need. That combined with the accounts of heard about Honda's AWD in particular makes me even more sure. But again, I've never even driven the vehicle. Perhaps, on one snowy day, I'll go into a dealership and test drive 'em both back to back and see for myself.
Sometime AWD and 4WD can even lead to a false sense of security. AWD does not mean AWStop. I know, duh! But you'd be surprised at how many people don't know this. People often get in over their heads. I often wonder if the money spent on a AWD or 4WD vehicle that is predominantly a daily driver wouldn't be better used on a winter driving course.

[quote:1593a64e75="Rockford"][You'd be happy with an AWD system that performs only as well as your previous FWD's?[/quote:1593a64e75]

30 years of driving snow and I've never been stuck or had an accident so my former FWD's did ok.

Exactly my point. But now I don't understand why you went with the AWD. Once bitten by the PT, twice shy?

[quote:d6b78236ca="Rockford"]Exactly my point. But now I don't understand why you went with the AWD. Once bitten by the PT, twice shy?[/quote:d6b78236ca]

Yes, my supreme confidence in FWD was shaken after I had to pick my daughter up from the airport during a snowstorm which resulted in 6 hours of sliding. I got a little paranoid. Also my job requires me to report if it snows, so getting around in snow is imperative.

I used to have a 70 mile one-way commute along I-74. There were plenty of days I simply would not have made it without my 4-motion VW. That said, Honda's AWD is similiar to most other light-SUV systems - a little added traction control. It shouldn't be confused with a locking real truck 4X4 system, or a racing/ driving system in VW/Audi 4-motion/Quattro and Subaru. Case in point: test drive an A4 Quattro, and note that when you floor it off a stop, the majority of the torque transfers to the rear and launches you. Likewise, in a truck, you'll be bouncing all over the place as the 4X4 powers you ahead. In the Element you will get a nice chirp from the front before the AWD kicks in for a brief instant, then sends in back to FWD smoothly.

That said, unless you're really going nuts, Honda's AWD is adequate for most drivers, better really. Most people would be going all over the place in a real AWD, it requires more steering attention than a FWD.

Howdy folks,
I need to strongly emphasize how important the tires are. We have a 96 Probe GT that was DEADLY in the winter, until I dropped 500 bones for snow tires and steel wheels. The car absolutely cuts through snow now (many inches, not just dustings). If I pick up an Element, I'd love to find locking difs for it!
bman

Do they even have a setup where you can lock the diffs on a CR-V? That system has been out since 97-98 and I haven't heard of one yet.

Folks,
This is from HondaSUV.com:
------------------
Real Time 4WD(TM)
Available on all trim levels, Element's Real Time 4WD system delivers added traction in snow, rain, mud and sand - especially on steep slopes and rutted dirt roads. Real Time 4WD sends power to the rear wheels when the primary front-wheel-drive system experiences slippage. The system consists of a power take off (PTO) from the transmission that distributes torque to a propeller shaft that runs to the rear differential. The rear differential contains two internal hydraulic pumps -one driven by the propeller shaft and one driven by the rear wheels - that circulate fluid through an internal multi-plate clutch system. When wheel slippage occurs, the flow rate is greater from the propeller shaft pump and forces the clutches to progressively engage, sending up to 70 percent of the torque to the rear wheels in slick conditions and 30 percent in dry conditions. The system operates automatically and only when needed, requiring no intervention on behalf of the driver to activate. It offers significant fuel efficiency and packaging advantages over conventional four-wheel-drive systems that use bulky, heavy running gear and rarely see heavy-duty off-road use.

Source: Honda News
-----------------------

Hope this helps to clear some things up.
bman

That sounds like a reasonable explanation. Anyway, I have to admit, I really got the AWD so I could get the sunroof.

I pull a 14' boston whaler jet boat (1500 lb.) with my E, our camp has a natural (read, pine needle covered) boat launch that leads to a nasty tree root / beach transition.

Regardless what you have for a vehicle you NEVER go over the root with your rear tire or you are done. With the E I backed up to the right spot, rear tire just in front of the root, put on the emergency brake hard (E is at a pretty good angle, nose up) so the transmission does not take the rearward pressure, then shift to P. After loading the boat, I shift to 4, put my left foot on the brake, release the emergency brake, keeping my left foot on the brake I use my right foot on the gas and modulate both the brake and gas so I can get a clean forward start (no backwards movement). You can feel the front tires start to spin almost immediately at which point power transfers to the rear and up the pine needles the E and boat go.

If you looked at the tire tracks you can see where the front right tire was spinning and the left rear (I think) tire was biting (not spinning) for traction.

Not sure why any power went to the rear tires after reading this post, this was and is a 4WD start or the boat is not coming out. I assumed that if I was in my driveway this winter at a stand still on the upslope with snow on the ground, my E would do the same thing. I'm glad I did not read this post before pulling the boat out the first time!

I thought I could chime in here as someone who is fairly adept with driving off-road and familiar with all of these different systems.

Here is how it all works, I'll try not to be too long winded :oops:

First it is important to understand how the open differential works. Most cars have open differentials. The center of the axle allows free movement between the two wheels. This is so that when you turn a corner the outside wheel can spin slightly faster than the inside wheel to make the turn, otherwise you'd chirp tires and hop through the turn.

The problem with open differentials is that the torque is always applied to the wheel with the least resistance. This means that if you lose traction in your left wheel, that wheel will get all the power and the right wheel with grip gets none. That's why it's so easy to get stuck.

A limited slip differential is a mechanical system (not electronic/sensors like traction control) The LSD works to counter that effect, getting power to both wheels intermittently to get you some traction.

A locking differential effectively "locks" the two sides together so that both wheels spin at the same rate getting equal power no matter what. That is excellent for staying unstuck, however it's not good if you need to make a turn on a hard surface or even at any speed over 25 mph on any surface, it's strictly for off road use and only for experienced drivers. If you don't know what you're doing, it can be bad. It can cause you to lose control on ice and makes it hard to turn even a little.

Now the 4wd/awd systems:

Part-time 4wd, the type you shift into used in purpose-built SUV's is the most effective type. The front and rear ends are "locked" together so that at least one front wheel and one rear wheel always has power, again without an LSD or locker in a very slippery situation it will always be the WRONG wheel with the traction. That's why the retards you see in SUV's still manage to get stuck. Since the front/back are locked together though, it cannot be used on hard dry surfaces as some slip needs to be allowed between front/rear wheel spin rates.

AWD, is the permanent systems you find on cars and increasingly on SUV's. It allows slip from front to rear and can be driven all the time. The downside is that it is even less effective because you can have all your power going to only one wheel at least for a while in an extreme situation. The better systems use a limited slip in the center to overcome this or use electronic systems like traction control that either modulate the brakes or reduce throttle to limit wheelspin.

The Honda Real-Time system is essentially front wheel drive. It uses a hydraulic mechanism that works something like the torque converter in an automatic transmission though. When a wheel slips in the front, one wheel momentarily spins faster than the other, the hydraulic system breifly connects and sends torque to the rear wheels.

This is great for fuel economy and reducing drivetrain wear, but it is the least effective type of AWD system because the traction is only there intermittently and you still have open front and rear differentials.

If both front wheels are spinning at the same rate, you will get no power to the rear wheels. If one front wheel spins faster, power is sent to the rear, if one rear wheel has less traction-- THAT wheel gets the power. If that wheel has NO traction, you are stuck and going nowhere until you can change the scenario.

That said, 75-80% of not getting stuck when driving in conditions you find on normal roads is understanding how all these things work and knowing how to most effectively use the system you have.

If you have the knowledge and the skill you can drive a front wheel drive car steadily down a snowy road while SUV's spin out and off the road left and right. I've done it!

RealTime AWD is never going to be the equal of the AWD you find in Subaru's but it can be a big help and it certainly should be able to get you through most anything you find on public roads. Just don't overestimate what you can do. I would never take a RT-AWD vehicle through unplowed snow more than 3-4 inches deep, for example. It's risky, espcecially if you are up in the woods somewhere away from civilization. Don't do it unless you have other vehicles there as back up.

The key to not getting stuck in these situations is to take it easy Drive slow and always keep a steady pace. Coast, don't use your brakes. Go in a straight line whenever possible. Build up speed before approaching a hill and then keep the throttle very steady when going up the hill. If you feel yourself losing traction, keep the throttle the same, no extra gas, wait for the AWD to kick in. If you are still slipping and going nowhere, take your foot OFF the gas. Let yourself roll back or forward slightly and stop gently. Then try again pressly steadily on the gas. Rinse, repeat etc.

If you do find yourself really stuck whatever you do, don't keep giving it gas and spinning the wheels! :roll: Stop immediately. Get out and survey the situation. Check the wheels and figure out which one is doing the spinning.

That wheel is your friend. Be nice to it. Whatever you can think of to get something for that wheel to grab onto, get it. Floor mats work sometimes. Some gravel, dirt. Anything grippy. Get that wheel some purchase, slowly throttle your way out and KEEP MOVING after that steadily and don't stop.

Go home and have a brandy and a cigar and brag to your friends about your skills. 8)

If you already know all this, ignore me. If it's all news to you, print this out and leave it in your glovebox. You can thank me later. :wink:

RealTime AWD is never going to be the equal of the AWD you find in Subaru's but it can be a big help and it certainly should be able to get you through most anything you find on public roads. Just don't overestimate what you can do. I would never take a RT-AWD vehicle through unplowed snow more than 3-4 inches deep, for example. It's risky, espcecially if you are up in the woods somewhere away from civilization. Don't do it unless you have other vehicles there as back up.

The key to not getting stuck in these situations is to take it easy Drive slow and always keep a steady pace. Coast, don't use your brakes. Go in a straight line whenever possible. Build up speed before approaching a hill and then keep the throttle very steady when going up the hill. If you feel yourself losing traction, keep the throttle the same, no extra gas, wait for the AWD to kick in. If you are still slipping and going nowhere, take your foot OFF the gas. Let yourself roll back or forward slightly and stop gently. Then try again pressly steadily on the gas. Rinse, repeat etc.

If you do find yourself really stuck whatever you do, don't keep giving it gas and spinning the wheels! :roll: Stop immediately. Get out and survey the situation. Check the wheels and figure out which one is doing the spinning.

That wheel is your friend. Be nice to it. Whatever you can think of to get something for that wheel to grab onto, get it. Floor mats work sometimes. Some gravel, dirt. Anything grippy. Get that wheel some purchase, slowly throttle your way out and KEEP MOVING after that steadily and don't stop.

Go home and have a brandy and a cigar and brag to your friends about your skills. 8)

If you already know all this, ignore me. If it's all news to you, print this out and leave it in your glovebox. You can thank me later. :wink:

I should add that in certain situations it can be appropriate to give it gas when you are slipping.

If you are on a slight hill to keep your momentum or example.

Also if you are shallow snow or mud and you know there is something solid and grippy just beneath that and the wheels can spin through it and hook up.

All those who mentioned a locker or LSD on the Element: An LSD would be very nice for the front end. I don't know what the transaxle looks like with the RT-AWD, but it is possible that one of the LSD's made for the latest gen Civic would work. The Element/CRV is basically a Civic mechanically. It would make no sense for the rear though, since it only has power intermittently. It would never make sufficient use of it, certainly not enough to justify the expense. A locking diff would make no sense on an Element or CRV, as it would be almost useless in the back and locking the front end would make it near impossible to turn. These vehicles will never find themselves door handle deep mud or driving up a ski slope though so a locker is not needed anyway.

If you could find a way to get an aftermarket Civic LSD in there, it would be helpful as long as it did not inferfere with the operation of the RT-AWD.

OK, I'll shut up now. :oops: :lol:

The way I understand AWD.....the rotational difference determines "in/out".... this difference is internal to the rear diff.....
the rear diff has two pumps inside, one that is rotated by the drive shaft that is rotated by the transmission, one that is rotated by the rear diff rotation....... when the rotational difference is greater in the front, i.e. front wheel spinning, the pump engages clutches in the pump/pre-diff assembly that engage the diff.....Honda mentions 30 to 70% transfer.....two wheels spinning, not just one as hedgeborn implied. I also think that when people use the term locker in this thread they are meaning LSD which would help......Just tell me where I can get'em.....some one mentioned stuck with only one front wheel spinning...I'd be checking to make sure awd was working...
All in all......Hedgeborn hit it on the head, slightly off center.....THINK FIRST,..."EH"

Forgot to mention...I've "pushed" snow for the state of MD. for over 25 years and can tell you some good ones

Lots of good facts here, but also lots of opinions. And it doesn’t hurt to absorb them all.

A mere teenager who grew up piloting four-wheel-drive pickups on his rural family farm gave me the simplest and best advice ever when I purchased my first four-wheel-drive many years ago, and it still applies to every kind of system out there:

“You can get up and GO a hell of a lot quicker, but hey – they don’t TURN or STOP any better than regular cars and trucks, and by the time you figure that out, you’ll already be in WAY over your head! I’ll tow you out the first time, but after that you’re on your own.”

His youthful real-world wisdom pretty much explains the usual traffic reports following every significant snowfall here, with a dozen or two SUV’s spun out, rolled over, and generally up s**t creek, making life all the more dangerous for us regular folks out there just trying to get to work in one piece!

4WD and AWD just seem to make the environment less safe for everyone else. Especially in the hands of the inexperienced. Front-wheel-drive is hard to beat for typical winter driving conditions. No, it’s certainly not perfect, but the important thing it does is let you know safely and quickly when it’s too slippery, and if you don’t know enough to slow down by then, you really are so stupid you belong in the ditch where you can’t menace the rest of us!

hedgeborn and sspiller, specifically, know what they’re talking about. Like sspiller, I chose to opt for RT-AWD, primarily for ease of boat launch and retrieval, knowing it’s not a perfect system. Still, I’ve been launching and retrieving boats for more years than twice the target market’s age, mostly with front-wheel-drive, so it’s not like I’m going to suddenly be overcome with a case of the raging stupids. I’ll continue to approach each situation as if I had only front-wheel-drive. And only assume that there’ll be even fewer exhibitions of tire smoke or clutch plate fumes, which have been extremely rare anyway.

[quote:a6fdcae8a2="djc"]The way I understand AWD.....the rotational difference determines "in/out".... this difference is internal to the rear diff.....
the rear diff has two pumps inside, one that is rotated by the drive shaft that is rotated by the transmission, one that is rotated by the rear diff rotation....... when the rotational difference is greater in the front, i.e. front wheel spinning, the pump engages clutches in the pump/pre-diff assembly that engage the diff.....Honda mentions 30 to 70% transfer.....two wheels spinning, not just one as hedgeborn implied. I also think that when people use the term locker in this thread they are meaning LSD which would help......Just tell me where I can get'em.....some one mentioned stuck with only one front wheel spinning...I'd be checking to make sure awd was working...
All in all......Hedgeborn hit it on the head, slightly off center.....THINK FIRST,..."EH"[/quote:a6fdcae8a2]

What you described is a good assessment of the Real-Time AWD system as I understand it. The power IS sent to both rear wheels, however you still have an open differential there, So... if you lose traction beneath one rear wheel, the power is going to be sent to that one wheel and it will spin while the wheel next to it with the traction just sits there getting no power. :( That's how open diffs work unfortunately.

The nightmare scenario for an Element or CR-V is being on some unplowed snow and you lose traction in the front under one wheel, the wheel spins and clears itself a little hole, then the power shifts to the rear wheels, the wheel with the least resistance spins, but there is loose snow beneath it and it clears a little groove for itself. Then guess what. You're spinning one front wheel while the one stuck rear wheel spins intermittently. You've got 1 1/2 wheel drive. :roll:

Now I am used to hard core 4x4'ing and my old friends out in Oregon will probably laugh at me when I buy a CR-V because of that very reason--- however, like i said understanding how the system works is key. I like the whole package offered in these vehicles. No hard core 4x4 handles an S-turn like an Element or CR-V. :D
I firmly beleive that someone who knows, driving an Element can do better on a snowy road than someone in a part-time 4x4 SUV who has no clue. Just keep in mind that it is potentially VERY easy to get stuck with RT-AWD. It works best when you are moving along on a slippery road at a nice clip. Slow going through thicker/deeper stuff is when the vultures will start to circle over your Element :(

Climbing out of a snowed in driveway will be tricky with this system, but if done delicately it should be possible. A part time 4x4 system is much more forgiving in this type of situation. Just point it and go. An Element/V will need to do it will more care. That's why I think it is important for any Element or CR-V owner here to understand how RT-AWD works. If you drive it like a pt-4x4 and think all 4 wheels have power, you will get yourself into trouble in snow one day.

[quote:9175b9ecc2="hownowcb"]Lots of good facts here, but also lots of opinions. And it doesn’t hurt to absorb them all.

A mere teenager who grew up piloting four-wheel-drive pickups on his rural family farm gave me the simplest and best advice ever when I purchased my first four-wheel-drive many years ago, and it still applies to every kind of system out there:

“You can get up and GO a hell of a lot quicker, but hey – they don’t TURN or STOP any better than regular cars and trucks, and by the time you figure that out, you’ll already be in WAY over your head! I’ll tow you out the first time, but after that you’re on your own.”

His youthful real-world wisdom pretty much explains the usual traffic reports following every significant snowfall here, with a dozen or two SUV’s spun out, rolled over, and generally up s**t creek, making life all the more dangerous for us regular folks out there just trying to get to work in one piece!

4WD and AWD just seem to make the environment less safe for everyone else. Especially in the hands of the inexperienced. Front-wheel-drive is hard to beat for typical winter driving conditions. No, it’s certainly not perfect, but the important thing it does is let you know safely and quickly when it’s too slippery, and if you don’t know enough to slow down by then, you really are so stupid you belong in the ditch where you can’t menace the rest of us![/quote:9175b9ecc2]

That's exactly right! Well said! :D

If you have big steep snow covered hills (3-4" snow and up), most rear wheel or front wheel drive cars won't make it. I was caught in a blizzard in the PA pocono mountains. All but the 4 wheel drive vehicles were able to drive. The stuck vehicles (including 18 wheelers) littered the hills. 4 wheel drive doesnt brake or steer any better, it does grip and accelerate better in slippery conditions like no front/rear wheel only drive car can. If it didn't work so well, no one would buy it and the technology would dissappear. To the contrary, even high performance cars are now embracing the advantages of 4 wheel drive.

Before I composed this reply, I composed a really long one, refuting the compound conclusion you've drawn, but I stopped myself. I went back and read some other posts leading to this point in the thread, and realized what I was going to say has already been said for the most part, but said in bits and pieces. Rockford, Slowhand, psm0110 and hedgeborn parciularly make valid, real-world points. I'm only concerned about the dubious manner is which you connect concepts like effective, popular, useful, necessary and good-for-all. But I'm not going to post the long version without a request from a more reasonable person than myself.

Hey guys,

Nyokie and I just went on a off roading trip to the Catskills with the group over at Hondasuv.com. We did some offroading up a lot of unpaved roads, grass & mud. It was a great experience and it showed me what the "E" could do. The crv owners were very impressed on how the box held it's own.

The awd system was there a lot. I drove in second down hill and the awd system kicked a$$ on the grass, mud & rocks. Believe me I wasn't doing anything spectacular that a hummer could do but I was very satified and felt reassured that the "E" is able to handle some snow and light off roading.

Here's the link to the gallery from the meet

http://www.criana.com/crv/nemc/gallery/fall2003

In my very best Eric Cartman voice: Kick Ass! Looks like you had great fun. And the movies are wonderful, too! Great scenery.

If you liked that then you will really like this:

http://www.criana.com/crv/nemc/gallery/albums/fall2003/klynch_fallfoliage.mov

hownowcb writes:
"Your "logic" is imaginative, but flawed, NAT"
You are entitled to your opinion. You do realize that it is only your own opinion. Reasearch and real world experience of myself and most others who have driven different drive systems agree that 4 wheel drive offers better traction. Most reasonable experienced people here would say that if you don't want 4 wheel drive, buy the 2 wheel drive. For most applications regarding traction, the 4 wheel drive is superior (not perfect but superior).. Whether it's taking off on dry pavement (no peel outs) to climbing snow covered hills, the 4 wheel drive offers superior traction. If money is no object, most here with 2 wheel drive would have probably chosen the 4 wheel drive. But without a sound survey, thats just speculation. I am however clear on what is speculation and opinion and what is well proven fact.

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1390