I ran the element on a Mustang Dynamometer at Payn Technologies in Troy, Michigan, on July 3. It differs from the Dynojet as it constantly applies inertial force and calculates things such as drag and air resistance, making it a killer tuning dyno, but it doesn't put down big numbers. Expect an 18%/20% increase in numbers on a Dynojet.

Here's an article from a del Sol friend of mine about the Mustang Dyno:
http://www.hondaswap.com/~pills/mustangvsdynojet.html

I have an 03 AWD Automatic.

The first run wasn't anything special. The tech had to get used to the shift points of the Element's automatic. By the second pull, the K24's intake (yes, intake) manifold was baking hot. I get a reading:

97.4 hp @ 5450 rpm
99.4 lb-ft @ 3950 rpm

Just a fluke, I thought. I have 160hp at the flywheel. We let the Element cool down for around 45 minutes or so, and we made a final, beautiful looking run.

100.3 hp @ 5700 rpm
103.5 lb-ft @ 3950 rpm

By the way, here's the video.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~eston/random/element_dyno.mpg

very cool vid! :shock:

hey man your pants are going to fall down.

Am I seeing that the all-wheel-drive system kicked in?
Wouldn't this explain some of the power loss? (Distributed across 4 wheels instead of just the front)

Zarathustra, that was the technician... I was holding the camera :)

And yes, the AWD system was kicked in... that is some of the power loss, but nonetheless, I would expect more than 100.3 hp in awd mode (note this is an AWD dynamometer... do NOT test an AWD Element on a non-AWD dynamometer unless you want to cause serious drivetrain shock).

Now I know why I'm building exhaust systems. I NEED POWER!

What does all this dyno babble mean? Break it down for us non too fast and furious types.

[quote:83f7ad57aa="zarathustra"]What does all this dyno babble mean? Break it down for us non too fast and furious types.[/quote:83f7ad57aa]

It means that the car made crap power, and that Hondas 160hp claim is crap.

Technically.

What it REALLY translates to, is that the technician knew f&%$all, and didn't have any of the settings right, and got an incorrect reading. I spoke with Eston, and the technician didn't know what the shift points were, etc...etc...etc...and I'm pretty sure he didn't even know what gear he was in. I wouldn't fret just yet, I am 99% sure this dyno is false.

This dyno is far from false. Matt, you know Honda's claim is 160hp at the flywheel... through a viscous all-wheel drivetrain and a slushbox 4-speed automatic, of course you're going to get some huge parasitic loss. 60hp? No way.

I'd expect this car to put 120 to the wheels in AWD mode on a Dynojet dyno. No more.

[quote:7ff1c67792="qsilver074"]This dyno is far from false. Matt, you know Honda's claim is 160hp at the flywheel... through a viscous all-wheel drivetrain and a slushbox 4-speed automatic, of course you're going to get some huge parasitic loss. 60hp? No way.

I'd expect this car to put 120 to the wheels in AWD mode on a Dynojet dyno. No more.[/quote:7ff1c67792]

So is Honda saying 160 hp @ the flywheel......and is that for the front wheel drive cars only??.....damn if I had as much free time as some of you...( grrr I envy you single guys... :wink: )....I want to have both my cars dyno'd....nice video qsilver

The car should put down between 120hp - 130hp (on a good day). A 38% drivetrain loss is dispicable. Even for a 4 speed AWD vehicle.

[quote:df388849c3="MatT3T4"]The car should put down between 120hp - 130hp (on a good day). A 38% drivetrain loss is dispicable. Even for a 4 speed AWD vehicle.[/quote:df388849c3]

Despicable, yes, but possible? Absolutely. You have to see what this car was built for. We aren't talking the efficient, race built AWD drivetrains of the DSM or the Lancer Evolution. These are AWD drivetrains with viscous LSDs made for a little extra traction in the snow, so I doubt Honda really cared much at all about the parasitic loss off the drivetrain.

To make things worse, you know that Honda 4-speed automatics are notoriously terrible...

[quote:4449bf5a90="qsilver074"]

To make things worse, you know that Honda 4-speed automatics are notoriously terrible...[/quote:4449bf5a90]

Can you elaborate a bit, please? I didn't realize that the Honda automatics had a reputation for anything except reliability.

I think they were talking about the automatics being notoriously terrible for "loss of power", not anything to do with reliability. :?:

[quote:d7a642b165="aristoBrat"]I think they were talking about the automatics being notoriously terrible for "loss of power", not anything to do with reliability. :?:[/quote:d7a642b165]

Yeah :)

They're definitely reliable, but their parasitic loss is nuts...

qsilver074 I am going to dyno my wifes E 2wd auto after we get a 1000 mi on it. I have heard that Hondamatics do eat up alot of power. My 92 GSR when stock was 160 flywheel hp & 140whp. So I am guessing that her E should be around 120 or so also how many miles are on your E. If your rings have not seated yet then your cr will not be at its best.

[quote:c86bafa35c="qsilver074"][quote:c86bafa35c="MatT3T4"]The car should put down between 120hp - 130hp (on a good day). A 38% drivetrain loss is dispicable. Even for a 4 speed AWD vehicle.[/quote:c86bafa35c]

Despicable, yes, but possible? Absolutely. You have to see what this car was built for. We aren't talking the efficient, race built AWD drivetrains of the DSM or the Lancer Evolution. These are AWD drivetrains with viscous LSDs made for a little extra traction in the snow, so I doubt Honda really cared much at all about the parasitic loss off the drivetrain.

To make things worse, you know that Honda 4-speed automatics are notoriously terrible...[/quote:c86bafa35c]

Does the auto tranny have a locking torque converter?

I saw the dyno video and I was wondering why the transfer case would transfer power to the rear when there is no loss of traction? According to honda the AWD system is only on demand when the front wheels slip.

Not knowing a damn thing about dynos (which is a shame, because I did IT contracting at Siemens Automotive and they had a cool dyno lab there, but some of the guys there would talk your ear off, so I stayed away instead of asking questions like I wanted to) ...

Is there any chance that the "thing" the Elements front wheels were on was spinning so 'freely' (like they would on ice) that the Element thought the front wheels were actually slipping so it gave power to the back ones too?

[quote:27e8308ec5="Ming"]

Does the auto tranny have a locking torque converter?

I saw the dyno video and I was wondering why the transfer case would transfer power to the rear when there is no loss of traction? According to honda the AWD system is only on demand when the front wheels slip.[/quote:27e8308ec5]

Yes, I am fairly sure it has a locking torque converter.

Also, I was wondering the same thing about traction. Honda told me to run it on an AWD dynamometer due to drivetrain damage otherwise, so I listened.

If the dyno's are correct you are suggesting 100-120hp at the wheel, right? That makes Injen's claim of 8-10hp at the wheel even more impressive, that's a 10% gain, I'll ask them in my e-mail how they measured the hp at the wheel claim... wonder what a 5 speed E would pull, i test drove a 5 spd. but went with the slush box for traffic and convenience.

The reason the rear end is spinning is because the front end is. The "slip" that's required to automatically engage the rear drive isn't a side to side slip, it's a front to rear slip. So, if the front end is spinning and the rear end is not, the system will "engage" and deliver power to the rear differential.

The way I understand it, there's basically a hydraulic pump at each diff. These two pumps are connected together in a loop and as long they're both pumping relatively the same amount of fluid, the rear is not engaged. When slippage occurs, there is higher pressure on the front to rear line because the front pump is spinning faster than the rear pump and this causes a set of clutch plates to lock up in the rear diff's input shaft which allows power to go to the rear differential. Simplified definition of my understanding only.

[quote:9c33d608cb="qsilver074"]Zarathustra, that was the technician... I was holding the camera :)

And yes, the AWD system was kicked in... that is some of the power loss, but nonetheless, I would expect more than 100.3 hp in awd mode (note this is an AWD dynamometer... do NOT test an AWD Element on a non-AWD dynamometer unless you want to cause serious drivetrain shock).

Now I know why I'm building exhaust systems. I NEED POWER![/quote:9c33d608cb]

Not trying to flame, but I am curious as to why someone who wants more power in an Element bought an automatic to begin with...

I just got through break-in and decided to beat on it a bit and I think the power is just fine...of course I wasn't really looking for the Element to be performance oriented. The numbers do seem a tad low, but given the drivetrain I am not shocked.

...however, I would love to see any post-mod dyno comparisons :)

[quote:3db27b7850="aristoBrat"]I think they were talking about the automatics being notoriously terrible for "loss of power", not anything to do with reliability. :?:[/quote:3db27b7850]

They may be talking about loss of power, but Hondas Auto trans have always been unreliable for the most part. Check out service bulletin 02-062 it extends the warranty to 7 years or 100k miles which ever comes first on 99-01 Odysees, 00-01 Accords and Preludes. We get about 3 to 8 accords and odysees every week into the dealership I work for to get a new trans put in.

Prior to that, they had a recall on accords for a transmission nut that could back off and destroy the transmission.

Im also seeing as of late, 99 civics that are now showing auto trans problems as well as 02 Accords, so I believe it spreads far wider than the bulletin mentioned above covers. Right now AHM is so sensitive to the auto trans issue that they are covering 100% 98 and 99 cars as well, but done on a case by case basis, subject to a DPSM authority.

Anyway, just thought Id chime in here on the reliability of the Honda Auto Trans.

[quote:5676e124e4="rjm161"]

Not trying to flame, but I am curious as to why someone who wants more power in an Element bought an automatic to begin with...


...however, I would love to see any post-mod dyno comparisons :)[/quote:5676e124e4]

Trust me, if the AWD 5-speed would have been available in February, I would have bought it, no questions asked. I had to have a car, however, since I had sold my Jeep, so I had to settle for the automatic.

I think K&N dyno'd an auto E closer to 130hp stock, not sure why this reading was so low, 100hp sounds low...

The reason this sounds so low is because of the dynamometer it was tested on. On a Dynojet, I should have gained something around 20hp, so I'd be hitting around 119-124. The dynamometer I'm testing on factors in weight and air resistance to give a more "real world" number.

By calculating air resistance (E is a brick) and weight, you are saying we have about 100hp to play with after overcoming weight and air flow...

That sounds about right, I have no complaints on pick up thus far and if you put your foot into it and rev it up to 4800 through each gear you are well above most speed limits ASAP!

Thanks for the clarification.

[quote:6383a9c472="qsilver074"][quote:6383a9c472="rjm161"]

Not trying to flame, but I am curious as to why someone who wants more power in an Element bought an automatic to begin with...


...however, I would love to see any post-mod dyno comparisons :)[/quote:6383a9c472]

Trust me, if the AWD 5-speed would have been available in February, I would have bought it, no questions asked. I had to have a car, however, since I had sold my Jeep, so I had to settle for the automatic.[/quote:6383a9c472]

Gotcha...that sucks. I wasn't considering an Element really, but my business outgrew the Civic Si I bought back in December so it was just really great timing that I started Element shopping just after the 5 speed AWDs started shipping. Even better timing was getting what I now call 'the good blue' before that was gone.

It's almost worth trading in the auto for the manual. I cannot believe how much better the 5 speed felt than the auto...IMHO, of course. I have never liked autos and the manual in the E is great!

Now go get a supercharger and some nitrous and report back to us! :D The quest for more power is never a bad thing.

You are right, no comparison, you control a 5 spd much better and can drive it like a sports car if you want... BUT in my case, my job means driving in some traffic, talking on the cell phone, having a laptop running on the passengers seat and having to shift at the same time just wouldn't work... (don't suggest this to anyone and no, I'm not that idiot weaving in traffic that can't chew gum and rub their stomach at the same time, i'm pretty good at it with no close calls, knock on wood, to date).

SO I settled for the auto, driving the 5 spd. demo was fun though, now I want to have the power and feel of the 5 spd. with the convenience of an auto so have to think CAI, resonator and muffler, that combination should put me better then a stock 5 spd and still allow me to work from the car.

Is there any risk to damaging the "realtime" when putting it on a two wheel drive dyno? I know this isn't a setup like a WRX, but you would probably blow up a diff on that vehicle if you dynoed it on a machine meant for 2wd.

[quote:e4f009c3cc="OneEyeJack"]Is there any risk to damaging the "realtime" when putting it on a two wheel drive dyno? I know this isn't a setup like a WRX, but you would probably blow up a diff on that vehicle if you dynoed it on a machine meant for 2wd.[/quote:e4f009c3cc]

Absolutely! If you have an AWD, pop your hood and look at the sticker that says you have to use an AWD dynamometer.

And rjm, I wish I had a 5 speed, but I have plans for the Auto, mainly a little place called Level 10. And I have a plan for the engine, mainly called Zex and Jackson Racing (or HKS).

So are you saying we should be expecting a significant loss of power over time??? I know with my 2001 civic the power was pitiful, I think the E has more power in comparison, but maybe thats because it's new.

Can you elaborate a little?

Do you think the awd automatic drivetrain can handle a supercharger at 6lbs. boost... :?:

I''m thinking it should. At least it better, because it's getting some Jackson Racing sooner or later.

Great video! What was the tach at before you slowed down? It sounded like it was screaming in that garage.

I took it to redline.