I just picked up this 1000 watt power inverter from Costco. I am trying to figure the best place in the Element to put it. It is about the size of a small two channel amplifier.

Any ideas?

Also, how 'strong' is the alternator in the Element? How powerful is the overall electrical system? Am I safe installing this 1000W inverter and only running it while the engine is on?

Any help is appreciated.

I put my power inverter under the Drivers seat and secured it to the springs of the seat with tie straps. Mine however is not 1000 watts, so I am sure yours is quite a bit larger.

One thing you will have to do with it is run a wire straight to the battery. Make sure you fuse it near the battery so the whole wire is protected and also run as large a wire and as short a run as possible. I am sure there are suggestions in the installation as to the wire guage.

If that is 1000 watts AC, I beleive the amperage drawn at 12 volts will be around 88Amps, which is a lot. I am sure your alternator will be able to keep up, but you should check the specs on it to be sure. Also, if it does not have a low battery cutoff built in, I would put one inline so you do not get stranded somewhere.

Keep in mind, it only draws huge amounts of current when you are consuming 300 or more watts, so if you are only charging a notebook, its only going to draw 1/10 the rated current, and can probably leave it on for a few hours.

It turns out that the inverter I got was too big to fit under the seat. I returned it and am looking for a new one. pookSter, do you have any pictures of the one you installed?

Thanks.

I got some 8 gauge wire, and ran it through the firewall. I put in inline fuse right where it connects to the batter. I also installed a relay so that power is not provided to the inverter unless the car is on. Now I just need an inverter that fits in the car! :roll:

Yes, its kinda tough to find places to put stuff like that. Mine is a 300 watt inverter. It is more than enough for what I want it for.
If you are only going to something around 300 watts, you really don't need to run a wire to the battery, but can run a pice of 14 guage from the fuse box near the steering wheel and fuse it there. I ran a wire from there to just under my console cooler where I have a 3 receptical lighter plug there. The inverter/notebook/mp3player/cooler all plug in there, leaving the one on the dash for other things.
Hope this pic helps ya

http://home.cogeco.ca/~tpookster/Pictures/HondaElement/inverter2.jpg

Hi, I was looking for something like this! I hope??

Can you explain what i can plug into it? besides a laptop, how about a desktop? maybe a stupid question, but I have a Imac and do a lot of digital photography and would love to use this Imac desktop and save myself $3000 for a powwerbook laptop!

I hope you can tell me more.
Nicolaas

Be aware that the inverter can generate a loud and annoying buzz in audio equipment (like a boombox) that is plugged into it. This is because the power voltage is produces is not as "clean" as what you get from the wall at home -- it's an approximation called "modified sine". Think "Aztec Step Pyramid" instead of "Egyptian Great Pyramid" if you want to picture the difference in the waveform. Those sharp edges on the "steps" is what makes the noise.

I have one of those little 70W units that plugs into the 12V power outlet, and I tried running a PA mixer with it into the Element's AUX input (add mike and guitar and -- voila! -- instant concert). The buzzing made it unusable. I then got a unit similar to the one above and while the buzzing is far less noticible (and probably OK for that purpose) it's still there. I would guess a TV set might show a lot of static on the picture for the same reason.

Target sells a line of inverters in various power ratings, and on the back of the package is a chart showing typical power requirements for different applicances. You can look at that if you want to get an idea of what it's good for. The little 70W unit I have (under $20) is fine for a laptop.

Here is the final product:

http://www.dreamlinx.com/tmp/plug.jpg

I used a weather-proof outlet cover in case the drink next-door leaks (safety conscious)

Thats sweet shur. You would think in this day something like that would come factory. How did you do that man?

It wasn't too hard, but it took a little while.

The power inverter is installed under the driver's seat (like pookSter's), however I positioned it sideways.

I ran power from the battery (both positive and negative) with an 8 gauge wire. I went through the firewall on the driver's side where there was a opening that let out behind the left fender.

At the battery (actually the fuse box) I installed a 30 AMP quick blow fuse, and a 12V relay. The relay prevents the inverter from drawing power unless the ignition is on accessory. I found the accessory trigger using eMass' wonderful wiring diagram (from the ignition harness).

From the hole in the firewall, I ran the power line behind the left kick panel, under the door molding, and under the seat. The wires emerged where the other wires from under the seat exit (there is a pre-cut slit in the floor material). Then I ran another set of wires (from the inverter) back through the pre-cut hole--to under the center console. The console comes out really easy. Just pull it toward the subwoofer in an upwards motion.

Using a Dremel, I cut a hole for the outlet box, and installed the outlet (as you would install it in the wall). I have an extra center console in case I want to revert back. ($18 from Majestic Honda).

The outlet box was a shallow outlet box from home depot. A full size outlet box would interfere with the parking brake lines.

I run the 300 watt inverter to power a cooler, MP3 player, and a notebook to watch movies while camping. There is no buzz, or hum present even when the MP3 player is cranked up through the E audio system. I know what you are talking about with the square waves, but I don't experience any unwanted noises.

Silly question, but does the E have to be on to use the power invertor? I'm planning on tailgating this weekend, and I'm not sure what I'm in for. I'm just looking to run a small TV.

[quote:9e26afd7f2="Yaqui_Element"]Silly question, but does the E have to be on to use the power invertor? I'm planning on tailgating this weekend, and I'm not sure what I'm in for. I'm just looking to run a small TV.[/quote:9e26afd7f2]

It depends how long you are running things. Using a power inverter over a few hours, say, to charge a bank of cell phones for which people forgot to bring their 12v adapters along (as I did this past summer at falcon ridge folk fest) didn't tire the rental car's battery at all. Running a tv however, would drain the battery quickly.

I assume this is because up-to-date inverter designs draw current from the battery as needed and are therefore more efficient with the power they extract.

As a compromise, I used my portable jump-start battery + inverter to run the blender for ****tails at the campsite. :)

If you're planning to run equipment from time to time, you have two choices: if the equipment draws very little current, you don't need to run the engine, but if it does draw a lot of current, then leave the car running. You don't want to run your car battery down too far, it's bad for the battery and also bad for getting the car started later.

If you need to run high-current equipment *continuously*, you can save wear and tear on your car by purchasing a separate gas-powered generator. Though pricey, the honda 1000w and 2000w hand-carryable gasoline generators are quiet, super efficient and tiny. I want one pretty badly. :) For less money you can get bulkier generators with more power, of course, but you probably don't want to drive around with them in the car too often.

-brendan

Did you need to "rig" the portable batteery and power invertor? That would be the easiest option for me, assuming there's not too much "splicing" to do! I have a great fear of tools! :lol:

[quote:fb9f2f9977="Yaqui_Element"]Did you need to "rig" the portable batteery and power invertor? That would be the easiest option for me, assuming there's not too much "splicing" to do! I have a great fear of tools! :lol:[/quote:fb9f2f9977]

The portable battery comes in a plastic case with a handle, 12V accessory socket, jumper style cables, a test button and a test-indicator LED-array, charging/charged indicator and "jump" on/off switch.

The latter flips a relay that connects the jumper-style cables so that they aren't live normally (a safety feature).

Anything high-amperage you don't want to run through the cigarette lighter plug, you just connect directly to the jumper cable ends and turn the switch on.

Since the 700W (1400W surge) inverter also came with cables, I just attached black to black and red to red before turning on the battery switch, then the inverter switch.

You want to keep the cable connections away from eachother (a short would start a fire or explosion), the ground (water is bad) and people (electrocution), of course.

I was especially careful, because we were using it to make mixed drinks too. :)

-brendan

What wattage do I need. I just want to charge my mp3 player or cell phone, but not at the same time. I can get a 75 watt for 40.00 cdn. Is this enough?

[quote:5b9a631bf8="boneheadz"]What wattage do I need. I just want to charge my mp3 player or cell phone, but not at the same time. I can get a 75 watt for 40.00 cdn. Is this enough?[/quote:5b9a631bf8]

Definitely enough. However, I'd suggest one or two 12V to <12V adaptaplug-based modules instead, such as the ones they sell from radio shack. There will be less wasted power.

-brendan

Definitely enough. However, I'd suggest one or two 12V to <12V adaptaplug-based modules instead, such as the ones they sell from radio shack. There will be less wasted power.



Great idea but the 12v plug for my mp3 player is 5 v, the only adapter I can find is 4.5. The oem is not avialable in Canada.

i got a 400W too..
but i move it from my jeep to E or acura all the time
as i need the laptop powered up.. :D
really nice equipment to have

Over the weekend I picked up a power inverter that I'd like to permanently install in the element.

Anyone found the best/easiest way to get power that's switched with the ignition and will supply ~20A under the dash? The fuse box is not readily accessible and I'm not really sure it's worthwhile to pull it out and try and wire into the back of it.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

-josh

Try this thread for starters:

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8817

It's probably the safest and easiest way to get 20+A power without running your own leads to the battery. However, it's constant on. I don't immediately know any easy path to switched power at your needed amperage.

I'd suggest doing what Honda does, which is tap into the constant-on using a relay controlled by switched power. Get this switched power using a Littelfuse "Add-A-Fuse" tap in the switched DRL fuse location (#12 in the under-dash fusebox).

Thx. Mike.

That might just work. Prefer it to be switched but I can always run it on a relay if I need to. In the meantime this'll get it going quick and dirty with just a 1/4" faston.

Now to figure out where to mount the inverter. How can those seats be so high off the floor with so little room under them?

Later-

I want to get an inverter of 400w to power my laptop for use with an Earthmate LT-20 GPS. I know they all run around $30-$100. I might not have enough time to order it online depending on where I order it from. I need to get it by Tuesday.

Has anyone used the ones sold at Home Depot? It is only $40.

http://imagex.homedepot.com/f/248/13340/7d/www.homedepot.com/cmc_upload/HDUS/EN_US/asset/images/eplus/617977064142_4.jpg

It offers both Cig Adapter and Battery Clamps for connecting it to the vehicle.

I want to plug it into the rear accessory plug and run my power cords back to it.

Any other suggestions? How well do these power laptops?

Thanks.

I would be interested in this also. If I could run my notebook computer inside my Element, I might never get out of it!

i bought my 400W at costco for like $20...

http://elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3792&highlight=inverter

These power laptops pretty well, but you're wasting a lot of wattage... you can get a small inverter that plugs right into the power port designed for smaller electronics:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2686065

Thanks Shen but I don't want a small inverter and I want something that can power more than just my laptop. My Laptop requires 65w so I wouldn't want something that is only rated at 100w.

I also will plug my BlackBerry and Jabra BT250v headset into this to charge it. Have not gotten a car charger for them as of yet.

I will go check out HD tomorrow and see how this Husky model is. If it doesn't work how I want it can always be returned over the weekend.

Is there a wattage limit on the rear outlet like on the front one?

spdrcr5-

Be aware that all power invertors make a "square step" sine wave ac.

This can be very harsh on some electronics, especially computers and other small devices. I would not get a "normal" invertor for a computer or Blackberry, unless you do not care about the possibility or ruining the internal psu on them or they are considered "ruggedized" meant for charging in this fashion.

The reason some invertors are so much cheaper than others is because they are not making very clean sine wave ac. The output pulse is very squared step and harsh. Potentially very harmful to electronics.

You can get true sine wave 12v invertors but they do tend to cost a little more. However, they generate ac comparable if not cleaner that what you get from the wall outlet at home :)

I've been using a Radio Shack model (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=22-146)for a couple years now. It's worked fine for running the pc, charging my phone and Rio Carbon. I cut off the alligator clips and hard wired it to the battery, it tucks nicely under the driver's seat.

You can get true sine wave 12v invertors but they do tend to cost a little more. However, they generate ac comparable if not cleaner that what you get from the wall outlet at home :)
In my experience they cost a lot more, but are worth it nonetheless. Just compare the cost of a pure sine inverter to the cost of the electronics you're powering.

Most electronics use DC at various voltages. So the inverter output, whether a clean sinewave or not, is rectified and filtered. Whether the device is hurt by squarewaves from the inverter will then depend on the AC/DC converter, and quality of its power regulation. A further variable is the battery of the portable device. If the AC is mainly serving to charge the battery, noise in the AC may be less of an issue.

paulj

Big Lots has a 200 watt inverter for $20 that fits in the cupholder!

Most electronics use DC at various voltages. So the inverter output, whether a clean sinewave or not, is rectified and filtered.
Negative. The "power packs" for all devices do change the ac to dc to run the devices. However they do not filter or truly rectifiy anything. They merely take the ac signal and convert it to DC by means of simple diode networks and then use VRMs to change the voltage to the desired output for the device. If the AC signal coming in is bad or not pure, it will damage the diode network trying to convert it. The stair step pulse AC will really kill it faster than normal.
Whether the device is hurt by squarewaves from the inverter will then depend on the AC/DC converter, and quality of its power regulation.

Exactly. Trust me that there is not a lot going on in the little black brick attached to the power cord for your laptop, etc......Bad power going in equals bad power going out. VRMS have set limits at which they work correctly. Above and below that they pass what ever is provided to them.

I bought the Husky one pictured above. Only cost me about $40. Reading the instruction booklet what really surprised me was that the 400w rating is ONLY achievable when connected directly to the battery and not through an accessory plug. The reason is there is not enough power enter the plug and the fuse is rated too low generally.

When plugged into the accessory outlet it is rated at only 100w.

As I said in my second post, my laptop power brick says 65w. I tested it on the way to work this morning and it worked just fine.

MTP, I am not worried about blowing up my power supply or even the laptop itself. I have a full bumper to bumper replacement warranty on it that covers everything. :) Also not worried about losing data. Thanks for the info though, appreciate it.

Reading the [Husky] instruction booklet really surprised me was that the 400w rating is ONLY achievable when connected directly to the battery and not through an accessory plug. The reason is there is not enough power enter the plug and the fuse is rated too low generally. When plugged into the accessory outlet it is rated at only 100w.

Whoa! Is this a common limitation of many inverters or just something specific to that individual manufacturer's models?

Whoa! Is this a common limitation of many inverters or just something specific to that individual manufacturer's models?

From what the instruction booklet said it is not a limitation of the inverter but instead a limitation of the accessory plug. Because it is not a direct connection to the battery you can't get full wattage because there is not a fuse and other electrical step downs in the path before it gets to the accessory plug. They made it sound like this is normal for all power inverters that connect with a cig adapter. That is why mine comes with the wires to connect to the battery. I am not going to run wires from the battery to the back of the Element right now, if ever.

10 amps at 12v = 120 watts. The radio and accessory circuit has a 15 amp fuse. Trying to draw 400 watts of AC power would exceed 15 amps by quite a bit.

paulj

I'll second that warning. Make sure that the inverter puts out a "modified sine wave" and NOT a square/step wave. Luckily, square wave inverters are being phased out and replaced with modified, but check to make sure. True pure sine wave inverters are quite expensive, and the only things that really benefit from them are battery chargers, microwave ovens, variable speed motors and anything that relies on the sine wave to run a clock accurately such as a digital clock.

I wouldn't plug anything I cared about into a square wave inverter, except maybe a light bulb. I wouldn't even risk my computer in a modified wave inverter. Sure, you're covered, but who wants to deal with insurance companies?

To power my computer on the go I use an iGo Juice power adapter, that can run off of wall A/C current, my car's 12V socket and airplane power jacks. It can even simultaneously power a mobile phone, PDA or just about anything that needs power. Check this one out:
http://www.igo.com/product_detail.asp?ProductCode=MOB+PS0069-10

So, I went out and bought the Husky today at Home Depot to prepare for my fishing trip next week. My plan was to use this thing to power a hot pot to boil water for coffee and a backpacker meals.

So, I got the thing home, plugged it into the back 12V outlet. Plugged in the hot pot and turned it on...

The thing SCREAMED an alarm and lifhgts flashed and it shut off. Hmmmmmmm.

So, I decided to RTFM, which I should have done before trying this...

It says this thing can't be used for high powered - high heat appliances.. microwaves, toasters, etc. I checked the wattage on the hot pot and it says 750 watts! DUH!!

So, the thing wouldn't start up again..... ****.

I switched over to the clips for the battery and it worked fine on the battery.. figured I blew the fuse on the 12V.. NOPE.

Turns out there is an inline fuse in the adapter unit for the 12V. I need to go buy that fuse tomorrow because its blown... lesson learned.

It will still be fine for powering my computer and a light.. maybe a small fan?

i'll just boil water on my small coleman gas stove.
B

Okay the more I search the more confused I get.

All i want to do is run my 200 watt hand blender off either of the accessory plugs.

Can any one help me by telling me exactly what inverter or power pack, (XANTREX PowerPack 400 Plus 400W PORTABLE POWER SEALED), etc. I need to do this?

I bought the Colman 200w/400w from Pep boys don't even wanna try it if it's gonna blow a fuse or have to be returned.

I got to admit, I don't understand all the wattage and don't want to lift the hood to run the hand blender by having to hook up to the battery, etc.

any specific device that will do the trick from the AC sockets is what I'm looking for.

Thanks inadvance,

C5

Try this thread for starters:

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8817

It's probably the safest and easiest way to get 20+A power without running your own leads to the battery. However, it's constant on. I don't immediately know any easy path to switched power at your needed amperage.

I'd suggest doing what Honda does, which is tap into the constant-on using a relay controlled by switched power. Get this switched power using a Littelfuse "Add-A-Fuse" tap in the switched DRL fuse location (#12 in the under-dash fusebox).

Damn man you know your stuff. I been posting all over trying to solve the inverter to run my hand blender. Can you take alook at my posts and advise?

Do I have run something to the battery? Need to run a 200 watt hand blender of either AC plug...:-D

I'm psyched to discover this thread and the other one that chad5 started, because I am also shopping for a power inverter and am clueless regarding the wide variety of choices and price ranges!:confused:

Larry, that is good info you passed along regarding the E's accessory outlet only being capable of putting out 100 watts max. With that being the case wouldn't it be overkill buying an inverter rated for more than that unless you planned on connecting it directly to the battery?

Make sure that the inverter puts out a "modified sine wave" and NOT a square/step wave. Luckily, square wave inverters are being phased out and replaced with modified, but check to make sure.

I hate to sound completely ignorant but how do you check for this or know what kind of "sinewave" is being put out? .....Does it say on the box?......Do I need to open the box and search through the fine print of the specs in the owners manual?......Will this info be hard to locate?

I can't tell you how many times I've picked up an inverter while browsing for accessories and have put it back because I have no idea what is the best kind to buy and if it will work well with the E's OEM battery for things like blenders, small tv, laptop, etc.

Uncle Mike and I just started a band!

It's call the, 'Electric Idiots'! :Cool: :D

I think someone should create a sticky that spells out the whole inverter reality. I read a couple of guys posts after massive search and they sound like electrical engineers. It would really help those of us who plug things into the walls at home and have no idea how the "magic juice" gets in there?!:twisted: As long as it was spelled out in total lay terms/idot proof...

Any Einstiens out there want to help out us electrically challanged???:roll:

I would propose two general categories.

1 that covers what can and can't be done with the two accessory sockets

2. One that covers how to do the hard wire to the socket or other spot so you can be hooked up to the battery...

how do you check for this or know what kind of "sinewave" is being put out? .....Does it say on the box?......Do I need to open the box and search through the fine print of the specs in the owners manual?......Will this info be hard to locate?

A sine wave is a smoothly undulating current that gradually (at 60 cycles per second) goes from positive to zero to negative and back again, without any sudden transitions, spikes or ripples. It's what your home AC power is supposed to be.

A square wave looks like just that on an oscilloscope: Sudden rise, steady full voltage, sudden drop. There are all sorts of variations as well.

A "modified sine wave" inverter actually puts out a modified square wave, i.e., a square wave that has been filtered to something roughly approximating a sine wave. The quality of the wave varies among units and manufacturers, but the more the wave varies from the ideal (sine) wave, the "dirtier" the AC is.

Motors and lamps generally can tolerate "dirty" current well enough, but some electronic devices, particularly battery chargers I'm told, can be harmed by it and need pure sine wave power for a long and happy life. Pure sine wave inverters are significantly more expensive, and you're less likely to find them in the average auto parts or discount store. If the box doesn't say "pure sine wave," it ain't. OTOH most folks don't really need 'em.

As for power draw, the higher the inverter's power output, the more necessary it becomes to wire the unit (fused, of course) directly to the battery. Inverters suffer in the heat-, dirt-, and fume-laden environment of the engine compartment, so the unit needs to be mounted inside the cabin. Bearing in mind that for a given amperage, the longer the wire, the thicker it needs to be, this makes for a bit of an installation challenge. But again, the above applies to heavy-duty inverters. The average small inverter, sufficient for powering a laptop, for example, can simply be plugged into the 12V outlet.

The cheapest inverters have no built-in battery, and have square wave output. If you don't hook them up to the car battery, they won't put out anything. Big, heavy inverters like the Xantrex 400 have a big battery built in. So they can put out a lot of power even with no connection to the car. But sooner or later, the battery is going to run out of juice and will need to be recharged. What if you are taking 300 watts out of your Xantrex, and it is not connected to your accessory outlet? How long can you keep this up? The Xantrex battery has 20 amp-hours of capacity. Current out of the Xantrex battery = wattage divided by voltage. Assume 12 volts. Current = 300w / 12v = 25 amps. Hours = capacity / current = 20 amp-hours / 25 amps = 0.8 hour. So you can pull 300 watts of power out of a Xantrex for 0.8 hour before it needs to be recharged. In the real world, you'll get less than 0.8 hour.

What if you are taking 300 watts out of your Xantrex, but it is recharging at, say, 5 amps from your accessory outlet? 5 amps x 14 volts = 70 watts. That is, you are taking 300w out, and putting 70w in at the same time. So the net power draw on the Xantrex battery is 300 - 70 = 230 watts. How long will this last? Battery current = wattage divided by voltage = 230w / 12v = 20 amps roughly coming out of the Xantrex battery. Hours = capacity / current = 20 amp-hours / 20 amps = 1 hour. So you can pull 230 watts net power out of a Xantrex for one hour before it needs to be recharged.

What's interesting here is that the Xantrex can put out more power than your accessory outlet can. This is impossible with an inverter that doesn't have a built-in battery.

Some loads will draw a momentary huge surge of current, and then settle down to a much smaller "normal" current. Incandescent lamps, electrical heaters, and motors do this. If your inverter isn't big enough to supply the surge, you are, um, done for, and it doesn't matter that your inverter can supply the "normal" amount of power.

The waveform issue is vexing. I've been a electronic circuit designer FOREVER, and I don't understand why a square wave is a problem for a simple rectifier circuit. I've asked Xantrex about this, and I don't understand their answer. So I plugged my old Toshiba laptop into the Xantrex, and it worked just fine, for hours at a time. My Sears NiMH battery charger also works fine. I don't get it.

For you electrical wonks: I looked at the Xantrex output with a scope, and found a strange thing. In a normal 110VAC outlet, one prong is ground, which is 0V by definition, one prong is neutral, which should also be 0V, and one prong is hot and has all the AC voltage on it. On the Xantrex, both the hot and neutral prongs have big voltage on them. If you were relying on the neutral to be at the same voltage as the ground, this would be a problem. Also, both hot and neutral voltages swing from 0 to +140. See the upper set of waveforms attached. But if you look at the delta V from hot to neutral, then it swings from -140 to +140, and looks like AC. See the lower set of waveforms. I have included a 117 volt rms 60Hz sine wave for comparison.

The documentation that came with my inverter calls the output a 'modified sine wave', and shows a stepped waveform like that in Motie's righthand figure. I don't recall the maximum voltages.

paulj

On the Xantrex, both the hot and neutral prongs have big voltage on them. ... both hot and neutral voltages swing from 0 to +140.
You were testing from hot to ground, and neutral to ground?

But if you look at the delta V from hot to neutral, then it swings from -140 to +140, and looks like AC.
By virtue of the two being 180d out of phase?

Okay the more I search the more confused I get.

All i want to do is run my 200 watt hand blender off either of the accessory plugs.

Can any one help me by telling me exactly what inverter or power pack, (XANTREX PowerPack 400 Plus 400W PORTABLE POWER SEALED), etc. I need to do this?

I bought the Colman 200w/400w from Pep boys don't even wanna try it if it's gonna blow a fuse or have to be returned.

I got to admit, I don't understand all the wattage and don't want to lift the hood to run the hand blender by having to hook up to the battery, etc.

any specific device that will do the trick from the AC sockets is what I'm looking for.

Thanks inadvance,

C5



I have used my blender outside to make drinks..with my Xantrex 400.....it went all night long.......but it was just on for little bursts....t

have not tried an inverter plugged to the car...

Ramblerdan: yes, I was measuring with respect to the ground prong of the Xantrex AC outlet. And yes, the neutral is phase-shifted by 180 degrees relative to the hot. It's a clever way to get AC using switched DC. It works because the load sees the voltage difference between the hot and neutral.

This kind of waveform would really mess up a phase-controlled load, like anything with an SCR in it. The only loads I can think of with SCR's would be light dimmers and variable-speed drills.

Ok I have a question for you guys out there. I have been considering mounting an inverter in my E when I do the stereo wiring. One issue I am having is I would like to hide the inverter out of site, though I dont know what to do for access to the power outlets? I remember seeing a 110volt power outlet for an inverter mounted on some car somewhere. I wonder if there are any special mounting plates out there. I thought about mobile homes, but I couldnt come up with anything. Has anyone seen a safe method for mounting a remote 110 volt outlet?

Thanks,

John

You could stick it under one of the seats and access it from the back. Mine really needed no mounting, it fits nearly perfectly.

Thing is most likely i will have my amps under the seat.

John

i installed my inverter under the driver's seat:

http://elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3792&highlight=inverter+install

i did it the easiest way by hardwiring it directly to the battery, although i'm sure you can hook it up to a relay so it only comes on with the key in the ignition!

this guy installed it in one of the side panels:

http://elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13229&highlight=inverter+install

unfortunately the pictures were lost in the server move last year.

You could always use parts from Pontiac.....the Vibe and Aztek both have outlets built into interior pannels.
http://www.pontiac.com/vibe/contextualpages/interior_popup.jsp?pageSection=1

The Azrex one looks much less stupid than the car. I'm sure there are others out there, like the Toyota Matrix.

Will

Good luck finding an inverter to run a blender. The wattage is probably too high. I have a Huskie inverter and it won't run a blender or toaster or anything else high wattage.

B

200 w hand blender?

How does this differ from an ordinary kitchen blender? Do you hold in your hand while operating it? Blend you hand in it?

In outdoor shops I've seen a hand cranked blender (GSI brand), but it doesn't need any electricity.

paulj

Ah... the hand blender I have is 400 w. 200 might work with the Huskie inverters. They have them at Home Depot.
B

Trying to install 350 Watt Victor Inverter in preparation for a trip from Houston to Yellowstone country. I can't seem to find a place to route power wiring from the battery through the firewall. This is a brand new EX-P Black Pearl 2WD and want to avoid drilling a hole if possible. I have looked at photos of other installs on this site and still can't seem to find a way to get the wires through the firewall. I planned to mount the inverter under the passenger seat.

Two questions for the experts:

1. Some of you have hooked up power tap from the ignition switch so that the inverter is turned off by the ignition switch. Can anyone tell me where to tap into the harness easily? From the internal fuse panel? Wire colors?

2. Where is the best place to mount the inverter? The only place I see is under the one of the front seats. The ideal install would be an blind interior location, then branch via 120V wiring to the front and the rear near the 12V power plug. Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance!

I can't seem to find a place to route power wiring from the battery through the firewall.
Go inside the Element and remove the fuse panel cover just under the steering column. Once removed, squiggle yourself so you can look behind the actual fuse panel. Along the firewall you show see a thick white cable going thru it with a rubber grommet around it. That's your access. You could pop-out the grommet and replace it with a split one with a wider opening. Open the hood and look behind and below the strut bar on the driver side half. You should see the same white cable snaking thru.

Peace fellow E-boxers, I am getting a kenwood flipdown monitor put in Sat to go with my kenwood touchscreen unit l already have in my e, and i was thinking about going ahead and have best buy, who has done almost all my electronic installs for me ( they do a great job for the best prices) hardwire a power invertor to my battery. I might just throw a PS2 etc in the E.

I Just want peoples opinion on this, is it too much for the E or would this be sweet

Let me know what you think .. good or bad?

If you think you would get a good deal out of it then go for it. You could put the xbox under one of your rear seats. If you use a ps2 you can use the slim model and put that just about anywhere. See how much it costs and if it is worth it to you...do it!

make sure you put a fuse between the cars battery and the inverter or else you might blow the inverter, thats what i did to my element. if you don't... can you say bye bye $20?

I have my E heavily wired to accomidate all the radios and video equipment that I carry for news and storm chasing. After trying and discarding several different options, I bought a new deep cycle battery which as 4 battery posts. 2 screw types and 2 standard posts on top. I ran a heavy set of wires back from the extra set of posts and put in an extra fuse black that powers just the sub systems. It has a master switch and its own circuit breaker. The switch is to shut down everything at the end of the day so you dont forget and drain the battery. My inverter runs off that line. I have also wired the E for 120 volt. It has outlets in the front and rear that are plugged into the inverter. I find that its safer to add in the extra line for all this electrical load.

200 w hand blender?

How does this differ from an ordinary kitchen blender? Do you hold in your hand while operating it? Blend you hand in it?

In outdoor shops I've seen a hand cranked blender (GSI brand), but it doesn't need any electricity.

paulj

http://www.sawyerriver.com/prodimages/CSB-33BC_b.jpg

Hey all-
Looking to install a power inverter but I don't really need too much power. A laptop, phone chargers, misc small stuff... maybe a Wii and a small tv every now and then. I figured on a 400 watt inverter.
Do I hard wire it or not? I figure yes but really am clueless on the whole thing. Nobody at any stores have ANY info for me. I'm surprised that many even knew what a power inverter is.
Also, if I hard wire do I have to hook up the relay switch?
Any info would be appreciated. I tried searching the board and the internet but haven't really found any definite answers. I also checked some of the pic tutorials on here but the relay switch and extra fuses kind of confuse me. I'm still not even sure if the 400w is even the right one for me.

I need to find an "out of sight" place to mount my 1200W power inverter.
It seemed like an awesome idea at the time. I was just going to mount it under the seat, hook it up to a remote switch, extend the 120V outlets to wherever I wanted and be done with it.
But I can't for the life of me find a place that will let me do a stealth install of this thing since there's next to no room under the seats. The inverter is about 4" high, 9" wide and 12" long.
HEEEEELP!!!!!!

Never found a place to mount it, so I decided to keep it mobile. Sacrificed a set of old jumper cables that I can now clip to the battery to power the inverter. Works like a charm. Would have been nice to have the inverter permanently mounted somewhere though.

What inverter did you get?

It's in the car. I don't know. I got it at Checker Autoparts. It's the 1200W continuous version. Cost around $150 or so. I'm happy with it.

That 1200 watt Inverter will draw over 100 amps from your battery under full load (1200W). Even with the engine running it may still discharge the battery and those jumper cable may get hot. probably be best to keep your load under 300 watts.

It's fine. I've ran my vacuum off the thing for around 30 minutes. The cables got a bit warm, but nothing out of the ordinary. Hell, the cable on my house vacuum gets warmer than the ones on my inverter.

The inverter has a readout of volts and watts on it and when I have the vacuum running off it it's pulling anywhere from 930-960 watts. It runs just fine.

That 1200 watt Inverter will draw over 100 amps from your battery under full load (1200W). Even with the engine running it may still discharge the battery and those jumper cable may get hot. probably be best to keep your load under 300 watts.


If the inverter is max rated to put out 1200W (10 amps @ 120V) it could draw up to twice that on the 12V side. No product like this is 100% efficient (puts out what it draws). Like car amplifiers they will dissipate this "unconverted" power as heat. If it is 70-80% efficient that would be very good. I doubt it is. Also if you only have say a laptop and an MP3 player that total a draw of 100 watts AC (less than an amp of current @120VAC output) the unit would probably only draw 15 amps of current. You can measure its consumption with the right meter. If you see lights dimming etc on very big loads through the inverter be careful you could roast the alternator. Good luck!

ET

Just bought a 400 W Black & Decker power inverter at Target. Today I tried to charge my power chair and plugged it into the cigarette lighter in this new E with the motor running. The power chair charger is rated at 115V180 W. When nothing worked I read the fine print on the inverter. It said only the plug it into the cigarette lighter if it's 80 W or less. Does anybody know why?

I still need to check the inverter somewhere else without a load to see if it's okay. I also need to check if I blew a fuse in the E. If it's the fuse is it okay to replace it with a higher rated one (15A) and still use the cigarette lighter? 180W should be the max. load on it. 180W divided by 12V = 15A, right? On our planned roadtrip I need to be able to charge the power chair while sitting in it inside the car. I am handicapped and running a wire from the battery like some of you did is not an option for me.

Wouldn't an inverter of that capacity fry the battery of the E?

An inverter of what capacity?

Also to the guy wanting to up his fuse rating...you SHOULD be fine. Remember that the fuse is there to protect the circuit (including the wiring). If you throw a fuse in there that's going to hold up better than the wires themselves, you're just asking for trouble.
IMO you SHOULD be fine pulling 15 amps through those wires. Don't take my word as a concrete YES though.

Just bought a 400 W Black & Decker power inverter at Target. Today I tried to charge my power chair and plugged it into the cigarette lighter in this new E with the motor running. The power chair charger is rated at 115V180 W. When nothing worked I read the fine print on the inverter. It said only the plug it into the cigarette lighter if it's 80 W or less. Does anybody know why?

I still need to check the inverter somewhere else without a load to see if it's okay. I also need to check if I blew a fuse in the E. If it's the fuse is it okay to replace it with a higher rated one (15A) and still use the cigarette lighter? 180W should be the max. load on it. 180W divided by 12V = 15A, right? On our planned roadtrip I need to be able to charge the power chair while sitting in it inside the car. I am handicapped and running a wire from the battery like some of you did is not an option for me.

I hade the same problem with my laptop power supply. It was only
was drawing about six amp's or so, but it would draw the voltage @
the dc power socket down to 10.5 volts. That’s with the engine running,
it should have been around 11.5 volts.

You need to have a larger wire ran from your battery to the inside
of your car. I’d buy a wiring kit for a car amplifier with @ least 10
gauge wire or 8 gauge would be better. My 300w inverter has a 30 amp fuse.
I’m assuming that your 400W inverter would have a larger fuse. (50 to 60 amp)
Also don’t forget to install a fuse @ the battery. When I worked in car stereo
installing while I was in high school, I herd about a person that installed an
8 gauge wire from the battery to the rear of his car. It shorted out and burnt
his car to the ground. He said the whole wire turned incandescent orange.
See>http://www.crutchfield.com/S-yfiG8SrmSlK/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?I=211PS8BI
This kit has a 60 AMP fuse.

As to a place that you might be able to mount the inverter, I think that there
might be enough room behind the shifter and the sub woofer in the dash.
See page three of this alarm install .pdf file. http://www.handa-accessories.com/element/07security.pdf
for instructions on how to remove the cover on the center console.

Watch out for the wiring harness for the passenger side air bag indicator
light. It’s short and hard to reach the release clip on the plug. It was
easy to remove the center console cover. I gust had to remove the plastic
cover around the radio, and then pull on the plastic on either side of
the radio. Also it helps to have the gear shifter shifted down so the
handle will clear the plastic cover.
See this thread for info on how to run the wire into the car. http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29117&highlight=power+cable+route

Also the power on/off switch in the inverter will have to be relocated
so it can be reached from outside the dash. The inverter will still draw
power even if there is no load on the 120 output. I’d use a
switch like this one> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062523&cp=2032058.2032230.2032278&pg=2&allCount=85&fbn=Type%2FSPST&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FSPST&fbc=1&parentPage=family
You can pull the back cover off of the inverter where the power switch
is mounted and wire this switch in parallel with it. Assuming the switch
in the inverter is a single pole single throw switch. (Make sure the
switch on the inverter is turned off.) You can also install a 120 volt
AC neon lamp next to the switch to show that the inverter is on.
See> http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3014501&cp=2032058.2032232.2032295&parentPage=family
Just wire the neon light in parallel with the AC output of the inverter.
See if you can remove one of the AC plugs from the front of the inverter.
They usually clip into the hole in the front of the inverter. You can relocate
it to somewhere else in side the car.

53187

Free man E

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. Sorry it took so long to react. First I had to get infusion treatments for my lymphoma and then we got into a big hassle with DMV here trying to get our new E registered. They ended up charging us $3000 sales tax on $46,000. This includes $26,000 for handicap modifications done out-of-state. We had to pay first because they got us over a barrel since we had no valid registration. We are going to contest it.

Anyhow, the issue of the power inverter is on the backburner right now. We did exchange the 400 W for a 200 W one since that is all I really need. It still doesn't work so I'm pretty sure I blew the fuse. I have to wait for our son-in-law to come tomorrow to take a look at the fuse box since I cannot do it. I did check a few things. The E-manual says that there is a 15 amp fuse already which would be 180 W. but on the 12 V outlet inside the E it says 120 W. A mechanic I asked the other day thought it should be okay to put a 180 W load on it. There's also the issue of a power surge when I plug in the charger for my power chair. As I said earlier running a wire from the battery is not an option for me at this point unless I get some help. So bottom line, I'm not going to do anything right now.

Yea it sounds like you blew the fuse. You'll probably have the same
problems with the 200W inverter too. The Honda factory wiring is way
to small of a gauge to handle mutch current. Most inverters will
shutdown if the input voltage drops below 10.5 volts. So you may
want to have someone beef up the wire that goes to the 12V socket.

See this thread on how to remove the 12V power socket.>
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42728

Also with a 200W inverter 10 gauge should do fine. Also remember to beef up
the ground connection to the socket. And I would fuse the 12V socket
@ 25 amp max with the new wiring.

I was hoping those of you talking about rewiring were wrong. So I asked my son, who is an electrical engineer, for his expert opinion. Unfortunately, you guys were right.:shock:

Here is what he wrote:

I would concur that you need a larger gauge wire and fuse. The additional wire need would depend at least somewhat on what the designers and their Dilbertesque bosses chose to carry the rated 15 amps. …..

You might look at the attached spreadsheet to determine the voltage loss and power loss for various wire sizes and loads

It looks like I have to rethink how I want to use the power inverter since I cannot handle rewirig myself and having it done is too expensive.

To bad I don't live near you, I'd be glad to help. It wouldn't be all that
hard to install the new wire from the battery to the 12V socket. I did
my auxiliary fuse box install in about two hours.

Here is a picture of the wire run under my hood.
53438

Here is a picture of the fuse box under the drivers side dash
on the left upper kick panel. The two 15 amp fuses are hooked
in parallel to one ten gauge wire. This goes to my four socket 12V
outlet velcroed to the carpet mat. I hade to do that because
each blade fuse holder is only rated at 25 amp max. And I wanted
a 30 amp output. I have plans to use the spare outputs for a
trailer brake controller and I'll need two outputs for that.
53439

Here is a picture of the four socket 12V outlet.
53440

I used Split Loom tubing on almost every thing. I wanted the installation
to look as factory as possible and Split Loom tubing helps prevent chafing.

To bad I don't live near you, I'd be glad to help. It wouldn't be all that
hard to install the new wire from the battery to the 12V socket. I did my auxiliary fuse box install in about two hours.

thanks:D I saved your pictures in case I can talk one of the more able members of the family into installing this for me.

I have a couple of questions: 1. you have one red wire connected to the positive. What did you do about ground? 2. How did you connect the red wire to the battery post? and 3. Why do you have one fuse near the battery and more fuses by the outlets? Isn't one by the battery redundant?

Any time you run accessory wire directly from your battery you want to have a fuse as close to the source of the power as possible.
Say for example you don't run a fuse off the battery and the wire you can through the firewall happens to short out because the grommet in the firewall fell out. Now you have a wire that's shorted directly to ground connected directly to the battery. That wire is going to get glowing red hot in no time and could possibly cause a fire. Imagine the heating elements in a toaster.

If you had a fuse right by the battery this could never happen since the fuse would have blown before the wire turned into a glowing inferno. This is why you want that fuse as close to the source of power as possible.

I just shake my head and walk away when I see amp wires ran right off the battery with no fuses anywhere in sight except the ones on the amp itself. :???:

You can never have TOO MUCH protection

Any time you run accessory wire directly from your battery you want to have a fuse as close to the source of the power as possible.
Say for example you don't run a fuse off the battery and the wire you can through the firewall happens to short out because the grommet in the firewall fell out.
Thanks, makes a lot of sense. But why more fuses by the outlets? If there is a short anywhere along the wire it'll blow the fuse near the battery.

Any time you run accessory wire directly from your battery you want to have a fuse as close to the source of the power as possible.


Good to know, thanks. I wonder if people who install the amps with no fuse know and choose not to do it.

Thanks, makes a lot of sense. But why more fuses by the outlets? If there is a short anywhere along the wire it'll blow the fuse near the battery.

The fuses by the outlet are probably rated a lot lower than the main one by the battery. That way if something plugged into the first outlet overamps that circuit, it'll just blow that fuse instead of the main one, killing all the other outlets. Like I said before, you can never have too many safeties.

The fuses by the outlet are probably rated a lot lower than the main one by the battery. That way if something plugged into the first outlet overamps that circuit, it'll just blow that fuse instead of the main one, killing all the other outlets. Like I said before, you can never have too many safeties.

Also easier to replace

1. you have one red wire connected to the positive. What did you do about ground?
I can connect the negitive/ground to any place inside the car I can find
a bolt or screw that is fastened to the metal chassis.

2. How did you connect the red wire to the battery post?

Here is a better picture of where the power cable is attached to the
positive terminal.
53752

Heres one with it opened.
53753

Side view of notch I made in cover.
53754

And a better view of how the wire is ran into the car.
53755

Anyone hooked up a inverter to an Element? I would like to be able to run a coffee maker. I was wondering (1) how to do it, and (2) if the stock battery has enough capacity when running to handle the load. Thanks.