I found a bug in the 2006 Element Stereo, but I can't convince my dealer it is a problem. So I am posting the problem here to hopefully either prove that it is me, or every radio in every 2006 Honda Element is broken.

The Problem:
When playing low bit rate MP3's burned as data files onto a CD, the MP3 player in the 2006 Honda Element Stereo can't keep proper time. The elapsed play time will jump forward as the file plays, then towards the end (when it is trying to figure out why a 15 minute song that has played for only 5 minutes is at time 13:30) it will skip audio.

This effects the playing, fast forwarding and rewinding of MP3's.

The Proof:
Download these three files from this website. They are MP3 files of sine waves, so they don't sound all that interesting, but you will be able to easily detect skips.
http://www.HandyNerds.com/element/

Burn these three files to a CD-R and pop it into your 2006 Honda Element MP3 player. The first file (24kbps) will exhibit the worst behavior.

Play these files, and start a stop watch if you want. You will notice that after about 2-3 minutes of playing, and if you are staring at the stereo, the time will jump forward, sometimes as much as an entire minute.

Try the other files, and you will see much the same thing (but to a lesser effect).

Who Cares & Why Haven't I Seen This Before?
You would only notice this problem while playing low bit rate MP3 files. What does that mean? Let's take Winamp for example. When you play a file, you will see 2 fields (KBPS and ~KHZ) KBPS means how many bits of data per second make up that file. For music, this is usually a high number like 192, 156, 128, etc. For things like BOOKS ON MP3, this is a low number like 24, 32, 40. (You need high bit rates for complex sounds like music, harmonics, vocals. You only need low bit rates for human voice only recordings)

How did this happen?
My guess is the manufacturer of the stereo only tested the radio with music MP3's with a high bit rate, they didn't test it with low bit rates.

What happened when you brought your Element into the dealer?

They told me it was my CD, and I was burning it wrong.
They told me that it worked fine when they tried it (with music MP3s)
They told me that they tried my CD in a new stereo and another Element and they both had the problem so it must be my CD.
After I got them to realize it wasn't my CD, they blamed the MP3.
They told me the MP3 player wasn't designed to play those MP3s.


What I think.
If the Stereo says MP3, it should play MP3s.
The 2007 SC I tested on the lot didn't have this problem, so somebody either upgraded their code, switched MP3 player guts, or found their bug.

Now what?
The dealer told me they couldn't do anything to solve this problem. They swapped the stereo with the exact same model with the exact same problem, and told me to call Honda of America. I opened a case: N012007-05-0101386

What can you do?
Burn those files to a disc, pop them in your Honda Element and listen to at least the 24KBPS track for about 2 - 3 minutes and stare at the time. Tell me if your time skips. If it does skip, and if you so desire, call into Honda of America and tell them your stereo is broken. Post something up here as well.

Massive Recall?
Nope, probably not. You would only notice this if you listen to books on MP3 like I do. The timing error is so insignificant on regular high bit rate MP3s, that you would most likely never ever notice this bug.

Thanks for reading.

--Kantica

I moved this to the Mobile Electronics forum, where it belongs.

By the way, does anyone know who actually made the stereo for the 2006 Elements with CD player?

--Kantica

By the way, does anyone know who actually made the stereo for the 2006 Elements with CD player?

--Kantica


The EX HU was made by Alpine.

For what its worth the Honda radio should be able to handle the following. from my 2006 manual.

The specifications of the compatible MP3 files are:
Sampling Frequency: 32/44.1/48 kHz
Bit rate: 8/16/24/32/40/48/56/64/80/96/112/128/160/192/224/256/320 kbps
Compatible with variable bit rate and multi-session.
Maximum layers (including ROOT): 8

Oh, that is good information. I don't know why I didn't think of looking at that. I guess I assumed that the manual wouldn't get that detailed.

This is great. Now I can go back to my dealership, the gentleman who said that the stereo wasn't designed to handle that bit rate and tell him that it was.

Thanks!

--Kantica

Download these three files from this website. They are MP3 files of sine waves, so they don't sound all that interesting, but you will be able to easily detect skips.
http://www.HandyNerds.com/element/

I think their last album was so much better.

so if mine is broken and i bring it to the dealer, does this mean that they should replace mine with an 07' headunit? plzz say yes

I dont think they will replace your HU with an 07 model. It will more than likely be a refurbished unit with hopefully new calibrations.

Who cares?

so if mine is broken and i bring it to the dealer, does this mean that they should replace mine with an 07' headunit? plzz say yes

No they wont.....they replace it with a unit of the same year and model.Warranty only pays for repairs not upgrafes.

I have a 03 Honda Element and had to unplug my battery, which now is asking me for a code for the radio, does any one know how I can do this:roll:

Oh, that is good information. I don't know why I didn't think of looking at that. I guess I assumed that the manual wouldn't get that detailed.

This is great. Now I can go back to my dealership, the gentleman who said that the stereo wasn't designed to handle that bit rate and tell him that it was.

Thanks!

--Kantica

Kantica,
What was the outcome of your adventure with the dealer in regards to your CD player?

I have a 03 Honda Element and had to unplug my battery, which now is asking me for a code for the radio, does any one know how I can do this:roll:

Your dealer should have given you an "anti-theft ID card" with the code for resetting the radio. If you dont have it, I think a dealer can get you the code...

Kantica,
What was the outcome of your adventure with the dealer in regards to your CD player?

Well the dealership gave up on me a long time ago. They replaced the unit with a unit that had the same problem (thus confirming that it is a bug in the stereo and not my individual unit).

So I have a case open with Honda America. I opened that on April 27th. He took all of my information, and I gave him names and numbers of all the people at the dealership. About a week later he called and left a message

Me paraphrasing:
This hasn't been reported by anyone.
Our engineers haven't seen this problem before.
They are suprised that it is happening.
They are researching the issue.

I checked my web logs and someone from the honda domain did download the MP3 file that made it burp, so it was cool to see effort.

I called Warren (my Honda contact) today, and he just called me back. He told me that the engineers are still working on it. I asked if he could get a status check from the engineers. He seemed leary. He then mentioned something that got my attention.

He mentioned "I understand that you can still hear the audio just fine, and it is just the time that gets altered" (Not an exact quote).

I told him that was totally incorrect, and followed up to let him know that at the beginning of the track, the time goes crazy, and then as the track approaches the end, and the poor little MP3 player has to "make up time" to make the audio, the track, and the time all end ... at the end, it skips. Thus distorting / skipping chunks of audio.

Oh, he says. I better tell this to the engineers. I agreed.

I then asked that he get a status check from the engineers when he drops off this new information. I confirmed that he would be calling me on Monday with an update.

He apologized for the inconvenience, and asked if there was anything he could do. I told him he could replace the stereo with one from the new line (or at least the SC version) that doesn't have this problem.

He didn't think that would happen.

He also said that these updates take a long time to happen, and then mentioned something about a 2003 model. I interrupted him and said I'm not looking for a full blown update, I just want to make sure they have duplicated the problem and if there was anything I could do to help.

So the short summary is.

1. My original radio skipped.
2. My current radio skips.
3. The manual specifically says it should handle this bit rate / sampling rate.
4. A crucial piece of information didn't make it to the engineers researching this problem.
5. Someone at American Honda downloaded the MP3 (but only one.. ?)
6. They don't have a solution.
7. I like chocolate milk.

I'll keep you updated. Until then, stay away from those low bit rate MP3s kids. They'll warp space and time all around you.

--k

They are MP3 files of sine waves, so they don't sound all that interesting

They kinda sounded like cosine waves to me.

- Jeff

They kinda sounded like cosine waves to me.

- Jeff
You must have had the CD in upside down. :)

The saga continues... and somewhat stalls out.

So a I last mentioned, Honda wanted me to bring in the vehicle when the regional rep was at the dealership, so I scheduled a time to do that, and I dropped the vehicle off.

I provided them all the raw sound files, all the MP3 files, and a description on my website so they could burn, compress, and read all about the files and how they were created on their own. Thus, if anyone cared to, they could eliminate the one piece of the puzzle they were sure was a problem... me.

So I get a call later in the day (2 weeks ago), saying that they called Tech line, and they did everything that the tech guy asked them to, and nothing fixed it.

They tried a 2005 Element, and it had the same problem. They tried a 2006 (like mine) and it had the same problem. They tried a 2007 and it had no problem at all.

So they decided to call the Audio Engineer for Honda. However (2 weeks ago) he was in Ohio doing some testing or something. So they left him a message.

He arrived back to his office last monday (6 days ago from this posting) to receive that message and hopefully look into the issue.

I got a call back 6 days ago stating that they had not heard anything from the Audio Engineer (Reasonable as we all know that when you are away from the office for a week, your e-mail piles up, and you need a day to get through it).

So I'm hoping (maybe naively) that the Audio Engineer is diving into the innerds of a 2006 or 2005 Honda Element stereo at the moment trying to solve the problem of the low bit rate MP3s.

In the meantime, I have my stop watch, and whenever I have an MP3 that skips, I look at my stop watch (8 minutes) look at the display (15 minutes) and I just hold down the reverse button for a minute or two to rewind the file, and continue on.

It's horrible, but until I get a real fix, it will have to do.

Cheers!

Um, I was just wondering, couldn't you use some kind of conversion software to either

A. Increase the bit rate of the audio you are trying to listen to or..
B. Transfer the mp3 to WMA?

I know it's not a fix to the problem in the radio, but it would probably work better than rewinding every 8 minutes.

Um, I was just wondering, couldn't you use some kind of conversion software to either

A. Increase the bit rate of the audio you are trying to listen to or..
B. Transfer the mp3 to WMA?

I know it's not a fix to the problem in the radio, but it would probably work better than rewinding every 8 minutes.


Yes, that is an option.

A would involve what is called upsampling, and usually leaves the audio sounding rather horrible. First the MP3 would be converted to an uncompressed format (WAV) and then recompressed with a different sampling rate. Up sampling sometimes causes distortions for the same reason that taking a JPG and doubling the size makes it look grainy.

B involves WMA. Honestly I've never used it because of the first letter in the acronym.

The best work around / hack that I have found was to purchase an external player and use the input port thus bypassing the faulty MP3 player in the radio.

So yeah, all possible solutions, and thanks for the suggestions.

Cheers!

Yes, that is an option.
...

It seems my life revolves around finding "work-arounds" for things that don't work as they are supposed to. It's pretty annoying. So fight the good fight. I'd call you anal retentive for pushing so hard for these really low-bit rate audio files, but voice doesn't need any more and it is what it is and it's supposed to work.

Keep us posted.

It seems my life revolves around finding "work-arounds" for things that don't work as they are supposed to. It's pretty annoying. So fight the good fight. I'd call you anal retentive for pushing so hard for these really low-bit rate audio files, but voice doesn't need any more and it is what it is and it's supposed to work.

Keep us posted.

I sure will, here is the latest.

Nick N at Fairfax Honda called me today to let me know that the Audio Engineer for Honda has requested that my test Discs be Fed-Ex'ed to him. So I guess those will go off to him today. I also made sure that the package includes the URL with all of my source sounds and documentation.

So that is progress.

I mention the service handler and the dealership because of the good service I am getting. I've heard things in the past about that dealership being not so great, but so far it has been pleasant.

I understand their initial resistance to this claim (as it is difficult to diagnose unless you are looking for it, and there is a reasonable amount of user error that has to be eliminated). But since I pushed through with Honda of America (at their suggestion) things have been going well.

Nick has done an exceptional job of keeping me informed as well (even at times to let me know that there isn't any news, but I am still on his radar).

So cheers to Nick & the rest of the team at Fairfax Honda. Thanks for all your help, and when I hear back from Nick & the Audio Engineer I'll let you all know here.

Cheers!

B involves WMA. Honestly I've never used it because of the first letter in the acronym.

I'm curious, are you a Mac, GNU/Linux or FreeBSD user?

Nick N at Fairfax Honda ...

Is this Rosenthal Fairfax Honda in Virginia? I don't yet own an Element, but I'm in the market so to speak and this is in my relative area. This is the kind of issue that would irritate me to no end (I'm a strong proponent of software libre, I'd be appauled that I couldn't read the source code of that stereo and fix the problem myself) and a dealership doing SOMETHIGN to get it fixed would be a HUGE plus in my book.

Has anyone else confirmed this is an issue? I'm looking to get a 2005 (and may rent one this weekend for work) and I'd love to test this - if it can be confirmed here I won't bother.

I'm curious, are you a Mac, GNU/Linux or FreeBSD user?


Linux than Windows. I'd run everything on Linux but I still use QuickBooks and adobe photoshop. Also my work is all windows. Everything else I can switch to Linux I switch.

Macs are really nice in my opinion. I just never made the jump.


Is this Rosenthal Fairfax Honda in Virginia? I don't yet own an Element, but I'm in the market so to speak and this is in my relative area. This is the kind of issue that would irritate me to no end (I'm a strong proponent of software libre, I'd be appauled that I couldn't read the source code of that stereo and fix the problem myself) and a dealership doing SOMETHIGN to get it fixed would be a HUGE plus in my book.

Yep, that's them. The service department has been pretty cool. The sales department wasn't too shabby either. They did the typical "Let me ask my manager" during the negotiations, but I think I just have to accept that these days.


Has anyone else confirmed this is an issue? I'm looking to get a 2005 (and may rent one this weekend for work) and I'd love to test this - if it can be confirmed here I won't bother.

Hmm, ya know. I don't think anyone else here has tried it.

I'm not sure I totally understand your post. Did you mean that if this problem exists with the Element you wouldn't buy it? That seems harsh to disregard an entire vehicle based on the stereo bug, but it's your call.

If you want to try to test this, here are all the files you need:

http://www.HandyNerds.com/ffhonda/

According to the dealership, the discs that I made failed on 2005 & 2006 Elements.

Be interesting to see if you could replicate this failure.

Cheers!

Linux than Windows.

Debian GNU/Linux user myself, haven't used Windows in years, not even for work.


Yep, that's them. The service department has been pretty cool. The sales department wasn't too shabby either. They did the typical "Let me ask my manager" during the negotiations, but I think I just have to accept that these days.

Great, I'll certainly put them up on my list to check out!

I'm not sure I totally understand your post. Did you mean that if this problem exists with the Element you wouldn't buy it? That seems harsh to disregard an entire vehicle based on the stereo bug, but it's your call.

I'm already sold on the Element. :) That's not going to change at all. I plan on building a GNU/Linux based carputer and replacing the standard system anyway.

What makes a difference for me is how respective a dealer/mechanic/auto maker is of issues that are important to ME. If they truly feel the need to keep the source code from me, they can at LEAST try to fix the problems I point out.

My "I won't bother" was in regard to testing for the issue, not in terms of buying the vehicle. :) If someone already confirmed that this is true of all sub-'07 Es then I won't bother burning the disc and testing myself.

I lost track of what the latest was, and I didn't bother to re-read all 3 pages of text, so here is what I know.

The audio engineer has the discs, but he seems to be a black hole of information.

The district manager comes into town every so often, and him and my local service shop / dealer call the supervisor asking for an update, and never get one.

The supervisor guy (who appears to be the only one who is allowed to talk with the Audio Engineer) just went on some kind of 2 week vacation, thus breaking any conduit we might have had with the Audio Engineer.

Warren at Honda of America is great, but it is easy to see that his hands are somewhat tied.

I guess they sent my personal information to the Audio Engineer so he can contact me directly, but as of yet, that hasn't happened.

So there you have the latest, but certainly not the greatest.

I do have 2 thoughts in my head. Recall a few months back that there was some kind of odometer issue? Can you imagine what that lady had to go through?

The second thought is... Am I getting placed on the back burner because this is an unimportant issue, because it is an audio issue, or I haven't made enough noise yet? Would this be treated in the same slow way if the tires were falling off the cars?

Bummer. I like the Element, but one guy being uncommunicative seems to be depressing my opinion of the whole company. Although I will say to Honda's credit, there are many people (Warren, and the team at the dealership) that update me even if there are no updates.

Bah.

--Kantica

The second thought is... Am I getting placed on the back burner because this is an unimportant issue, because it is an audio issue, or I haven't made enough noise yet? Would this be treated in the same slow way if the tires were falling off the cars?
--Kantica

When you initially posted your concerns I thought you would be laughed at when you took your concerns to the dealer! Not that I think your concern is petty but I can see a large corporation having a cavalier attitude about it. Its not how loud you shout. If this were a problem being brought to their attention by a lot of customers they would listen. Truthfully how many owners will even notice? I didn't till you pointed it out and tried it on my own. By the time Honda invests any energy and come up with a resolution they will have moved on to a different design. Retroactive action for those who even know about the problem will probably be non-existant.
Anecdotally I experience this all the time. I am in field service and hear first hand from customers about design deficiencies, software glitches etc etc. I pass on every comment I get. From my years of experience I know what complaints get taken serious (patient risk) and what complaints will disappear into the bowels of the corporation.

complaints will disappear into the bowels of the corporation.

Consider me a bowel kicker ;-)

Consider me a bowel kicker ;-)

Your Delta Tau Chi pledge name shall be.... Ex Lax

One step forward...

It seems that the Audio Engineer has sent this problem to Pioneer. Who (IIRC) is the actual manufacturer of this stereo. (Sidenote; interesting, I actually used to work on Pioneer Gear in a previous job).

The last word I got is that the Engineer is heading up to Canada to follow the data and talk with the Pioneer people directly.

It didn't sound like my little finding prompted the trip, but that he was going up there anyway, and brought along this little issue.

The week he is traveling up there is this week, the week of 8/20/07

Cheers!

Kantica, this is great that you've stayed on top of this and that it certainly sounds like American Honda is taking your issue seriously. It is also great that you are keeping this thread updated and for that we really do appreciate it.

Hope this all results in not only a fix for you but for everyone with the issue.

Thanks.