Hello. Avid viewer but my first post here.

In the past two weeks I have been up and down everywhere on the 100's of EOC mobile electronics posts and forums... but I couldn't find threads that are recent and/or specific to my "plan"... hence this post. Please read on:

Have a '05 EX with the 7-speaker XM and aux input factory system. Not bad for stock but it's, well, stock and I want a little more gas in the audio dept.

Main objectives:

- absolute maximum stealth. Give the car stereo stealing dirtbags nothing to look at;
- full, even, quality balanced sound -- don't need to p.o. the neighbors with crazy stupid loud bass or be heard a mile away -- noise pollution = :twisted:
- retaining as much as possible of the space and utility of the E -- I use the cargo and pull out seats and switch things up quite a bit;
- NO SPEAKER BOX for sub(s). (see “absolute maximum stealth” above);
- keeping existing Element OEM HU. I like it fine. It suits my needs, don't want to hassle with the existing XM and AUX integration and again STEALTH!… no snazzy after market HU to entice a thief to bust in.

Towards that end here's my system:

All Elemental Designs amps, components and wiring. Elemental Designs is an online direct marketer of home and mobile audio amps speakers subs and such out of Newton IA. Awesome stuff with great staff, discounted pricing on amp / speaker combo packages and 5 year warranties on just about everything.

- QTY 2 Elemental Designs eDi 6000s v.2 System. 1 set for the front doors -- 1 for the back doors for consistency in the sound field front and back… that just makes sense to me;

- Elemental Designs NINe 4 amp. This is a 4 ch amp powerful enough to push both pairs of 6000's and small enough to fit under either front seat;

- Elemental Designs NINe.2 amp bridged to push low end of the system. The NINe.2 has the same dimensions as the NINe.4 so again it will fit under either front seat.

- For low end, either a JL Audio Stealthbox for the Element; (the best solution from what I can tell but $600 freakin bucks! OUCH!);

- OR an Elemental Designs 7Kv.2 Subwoofer -- (one of the few manufacturers of a quality after market sub to go in to e's stock subwoofer location between the seats below shifter. I think the phrase “6.5 subwoofer” is an oxymoron -- thus I am leary this will suffice but if it’s “passable” compared to a Stealthbox, I just saved $550 dollars!

The stock amp pushing the 7-speaker system will be unceremoniously USURPED by the 2 NINe series amps! -- too wimpy all around from what has been listed.

I intend to wire it all myself with the help of an experienced friend who is very thorough and has torn into many a car dash and door panel in his time… that plus my local installer wanted $600 bucks to put everything in and they won’t even warranty the install unless I use ALL of their 200% marked up wiring and parts.

All the resources in this forum are AWESOME. Many thanks to all who have posted to give me the guts to do this myself…

I would like input from the veterans here (or from anyone who is nice enough to offer useful relevant input) what you think of this combination of components. My thought process for all Elemental Design was again, value, reputation, 5 year warranty, real live English speaking support staff in the good ol’ USA via phone and/or live chat and getting as much as I could from one place/vendor. Any comments would be appreciated

Here is where I am not clear:

I get the concepts of how to do most of this job but I am relatively clueless how to integrate all the after market items with the exiting HU. Specifically:

- what all is connected into the back of this OEM HU?. Which wires / connectors do I modify and which do I leave alone?
- are the outputs of the HU speaker lever or line level?;
- if speaker level, should I get something like an Audio Control “lc6i” ?
- if not, how do I turn these small raw wires into RCA ins that the amps need? An extra harness or something?

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME! mH

Nice setup!

First suggestion would be to not bother with the rear door speakers. From a sound stage point of view you don't need them. Take that extra money you save from not buying the rear speakers and switching to a 2ch amp and put it to good use like buying some Dynamat for the front doors.

Second thing is you realize that the space under the front seats is tight! I have been doing installs (competed in IASCA competitions) in my cars for a long time now and I was going to mounts my amps under the front seats. I measured everything and I know they will fit, but it just was not right for me. I was also trying to be very stealthy and I just could get my amp to sit under the drivers seat without hanging out the back enough to be visible from the outside. Also getting to the setting and doing any maintenance would be a royal pain! I finally decided on mounting them on the rear panels above where the side pockets are. They fit great and they are not in the way at all and you cannot see them when the cargo screen is in place. If you search the board for amp install locations there is someone here that has installed the ED amps in the same place and has posted pics. I basically did the mounts just like his and they came out real nice!

Oh...here what I am doing for my line outs off the stock radio. I bought the standard radio install harness for the Element and then I also bought the reverse harness for the Elements radio. I am going to tie them together and only connect up the needed wires for the factory radio. Then I will solder on a couple of RCA plugs so I can grab the line outs off the radio without doing any cutting of the factory harness. As far as the line outs go there has been talk that they may be a little low, though I am not worried since I have an Audio Control four.1 that has a built in line driver. You could use the Audio Control Matrix which is a six channel line driver and grab the line level outputs right off the radio. I am doing it that way because I feel it will be a cleaner signal than using a LOC.

If you need more info I can get you part numbers for the wire harness...etc...

I hope my info helps!!

John

Here is the link to the install on the side panels I was talking about. He did a real nice job with it. His username here on the board is SCREWaerodynamics!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dagreengiant/sets/72157594540877134

John

John,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes other folks have also said not to focus too much on the back speakers. My Elemental Designs shipment arrived today so I guess I am committed at this point. I figure too much good sound is better than too little.

I know about how tight the seat space is. I’ve seen a couple guys posted saying they put amps under there doing some minor surgery on the plastic piece underneath the seats to make amps fit. I bought these particular amps with limited space under the seat in mind. It will be tight but I believe they’ll fit. I still may considering mounting them above the utility space though…

Regarding the use of an "Audio Control" unit: I think I am still confused by the terms “speaker level” vs. “line level”. The one I was considering, the Audio Control lc6i, would be useful if and ONLY if the outputs from the OEM HU are SPEAKER LEVEL -- in other words, already internally amplified in the head unit. The lc6i takes speaker level outputs of an OEM head unit and bumps them down to a pre-amp level output that goes to the RCA in’s on your amp(s). But, if the OEM HU outputs are LINE LEVEL, which makes sense they would be since they go to a separate amp in my 7 spkr factory system, then I assume it would just be a matter of converting the correct line out wires to RCA plugs to go to the amp inputs…like you said. The amps have input gain settings so it seems like there would be no “need” for any kind of separate line/speaker/converter device between the HU and new amps. Is this right?

Have you already done what your are describing above?

Great idea about the two harnesses. Where did you get them and what are model numbers?

Thanks,
Mike H

Scosche HA08 & H08r are the wire harnesse models. The HA08 is the normal interface for an aftermarket radio to be installed into an E and the HA08R one is the one with the plug for the radio. With both of them tied together you will be able to tap the needed outputs to go to your new amps without cutting the stock harness. The outputs on the back of the radio are line outs that go to the E's factory amp that is mounted on the passenger side kick panel. Since they are line outs they would be able to go straight to the amps RCA in's. The thing is they are reported to be a little on the low side, though nobody here from what I can find have confirmed how low. Yes you can turn up the gains on the amps, but you may risk introducing some noise which is not good. The better way to handle that would be to install a line driver right at the radio and bump up the line outs a bit. The Audio Control Matrix I mentioned is real nice. I just happen to have a Audio Control 4.1 laying around from a prior install. It is a four band EQ with a built in line driver. I prefer grabbing the line outs off the radio rather than tapping the speaker outs off the amp. I think the line outs will be a cleaner signal. Let me know if you need anymore info!

PS...My install will most likely happen soon....I am installing the RAAMat now.

John

By the way if you didnt want to install the rear speakers you could just sell them locally on craigslist and use the extra two channels of the amp and do an active setup for the front component set and just not install the passive crossovers.

John

John,

thanks for clarification on the speaker/line level thing... I ordered those two connectors from Sonic Electronics just now

b.t.w. Audio Control makes a unit that does what the Matrix does but also adds eq. It has all the same i/o as the Matrix. It's called the EQs Think it's worth the extra $$ over the matrix?

http://mobileaudiocontrol.com/product.asp?Product_id=14160&d_id=17612&l2=&l1=17612

gotta figure where I would mount it though... for that matter the Matrix box as well if I went that route.

Yup you could use the EQS or the DQS if you want a digital setup. You really just cant go wrong with Audio Control gear. I have been using there products for a long time and I love them! The problem you will have is mounting the processor. Fortunately I am ditching the factor sub location which leaves me the perfect location to mount equipment like a line driver or EQ. Especially since you can get the line driver real close to the radio outputs. Are you sure you dont want to reconsider doing a nice ED sub in the back? I have a leftover Image Dynamics 12 in a hatch style box that I am going to use for now. I think later i may try and come up with something custom that utilizes the space under the rear seats for most of the air space for a sub.

John

If memory serves me correctly, you can get enough space after you modify the plastic 'tray' under the front seats and remove the heater vent tubing. It all depends on how big the amps are but chances are you could squeeze it in.

I know I could fit mine under the seat, but I just couldnt bring myself to do it. I didnt really want to lose the air vents going to the back. Also with the limited space my amps would just not get great airflow. Third would be I could not easily get to the controls. Last but the most imprtant would be haveing something solid to bolt them to. I will drill though the body if need be, but I am the type the usally exhaust all my options before I do that. I just prefer not to make holes in the body of my cars. With all those issues on my mind I decided to see if I could find a better place to mount them. That is when I saw the pics from the install I posted above. My amps fit there great and my seats still fold up. Also I can reach all the controls, they have great air flow back there and it is still a stealthy place to mount them. All the things i want in a good install!

John

If memory serves me correctly, you can get enough space after you modify the plastic 'tray' under the front seats and remove the heater vent tubing. It all depends on how big the amps are but chances are you could squeeze it in.

The HU outputs are balanced differential and are line level but not coaxial line. In other words the voltage output and impedance is line level but the outputs are not coaxial. You cannot connect RCA cables to the factory HU output lines and expect good results. The pin labeled with the minus sign is actually a signal output and should not be connected to the shield of a coaxial cable or the RCA ring of a car audio amp. The first thing you need is balanced audio cable; this cable has two equal conductors and a shield. When you connect to the Factory HU you do not use the shield, you just connect one of the center conductor to the signal out + and the other to the signal out – from the HU. Next, since all car audio gear uses unbalanced RCA connectors you connect the conductor from the minus pin to the ring and the other (signal +) to the pin of the RCA plug. No shield wire connection at the RCA.

The next item is very important. You must use an amp, EQ or processor that has balanced differential inputs, if you don’t you will get noise and crappy sound quality. This is because the unbalanced inputs of the amp will ground all the HU minus signal outputs. This will kill imaging, cause whine and destroy the balanced audio line’s noise canceling properties.

What to use,
All JL amps, the Rockford FG Punch and Power Series, the current Kicker Zx Multi-channel amps and Audio Control products feature Balanced Differential inputs.

Why does this system use balanced audio lines? Balanced lines are immune to noise pick up. Any noise picked up by the audio wires is canceled at the balanced input stage. No shielding is required for balanced lines.

If you use unbalanced audio wire (coaxial) then the noise pick up will be grater on the outside (shield) wire and less on the inside. In order for the noise to be rejected it must be equal on each conductor (hence balanced).

Here is how it all works.

The plus and minus line out pins carry equal but 180 degrees out of phase (with each other) audio signal. As the signal travels along the balanced cable noise is picked up equally and in phase on each conductor. When the audio signal hits the differential amp input the minus signal is inverted or shifted 180 degrees and is now in phase with the + signal. This inversion causes the noise on the minus wire to also shift 180 degrees so it is now out of phase with the noise on the + wire. After the inversion on the minus side the two signals are combined. The noise signals cancel because they are equal and now out of phase. The audio signals are now in phase so it stays intact and move to the next stage of the amp free of any noise from the audio line.

If you solder RCA coaxial cables to the HU outputs you will actually add noise to the system. You must use balanced audio cable. Radio shack sells two conductors mike cable that will work perfectly.

jeff

mercman...very interesting info! I do have a few questions for you. So you are saying tap the line outs at the back of the radio with balanced audio cable all the way to the next device in the chain and then you can wire up a set of RCA ends in reverse? I already have a Audio Control 4.1 that will take a balanced input so I am good there. I just wonder if my older RF amps will take a balanced input also? When you say that the Rockford Fosgate amps take a balanced input are you referring to older models also or just current ones? Either way I should be OK since I can feed a balanced or unbalanced line from the 4.1.

Thanks for the info,

John

The HU outputs are balanced differential and are line level but not coaxial line. In other words the voltage output and impedance is line level but the outputs are not coaxial. You cannot connect RCA cables to the factory HU output lines and expect good results. The pin labeled with the minus sign is actually a signal output and should not be connected to the shield of a coaxial cable or the RCA ring of a car audio amp. The first thing you need is balanced audio cable; this cable has two equal conductors and a shield. When you connect to the Factory HU you do not use the shield, you just connect one of the center conductor to the signal out + and the other to the signal out – from the HU. Next, since all car audio gear uses unbalanced RCA connectors you connect the conductor from the minus pin to the ring and the other (signal +) to the pin of the RCA plug. No shield wire connection at the RCA.

The next item is very important. You must use an amp, EQ or processor that has balanced differential inputs, if you don’t you will get noise and crappy sound quality. This is because the unbalanced inputs of the amp will ground all the HU minus signal outputs. This will kill imaging, cause whine and destroy the balanced audio line’s noise canceling properties.

What to use,
All JL amps, the Rockford FG Punch and Power Series, the current Kicker Zx Multi-channel amps and Audio Control products feature Balanced Differential inputs.

Why does this system use balanced audio lines? Balanced lines are immune to noise pick up. Any noise picked up by the audio wires is canceled at the balanced input stage. No shielding is required for balanced lines.

If you use unbalanced audio wire (coaxial) then the noise pick up will be grater on the outside (shield) wire and less on the inside. In order for the noise to be rejected it must be equal on each conductor (hence balanced).

Here is how it all works.

The plus and minus line out pins carry equal but 180 degrees out of phase (with each other) audio signal. As the signal travels along the balanced cable noise is picked up equally and in phase on each conductor. When the audio signal hits the differential amp input the minus signal is inverted or shifted 180 degrees and is now in phase with the + signal. This inversion causes the noise on the minus wire to also shift 180 degrees so it is now out of phase with the noise on the + wire. After the inversion on the minus side the two signals are combined. The noise signals cancel because they are equal and now out of phase. The audio signals are now in phase so it stays intact and move to the next stage of the amp free of any noise from the audio line.

If you solder RCA coaxial cables to the HU outputs you will actually add noise to the system. You must use balanced audio cable. Radio shack sells two conductors mike cable that will work perfectly.

jeff

mercan...are you 100% sure that the factory output from the Honda radio is balanced? After doing a little searching I found some info that shows hooking up the RCA's normally? Where did you get this info?

Thanks,

John

First, if the output was unbalanced the minus leads would be labeled signal return or signal ground or just ground. This is industry standard practice. Second, I have an Acura TSX with a similar system (no separate sub out) and have tested it extensively and solved all of the noise problems the TSX guys were having making the RCA coaxial connections. I actually make a balanced interconnect harness for the TSX and the new Civic Si and EX coupe (they have the same system as the TSX). Unfortunately it won’t fit the Element. I haven’t hooked up my test gear to the Element yet, I plan to do this in the spring when the weather warms up. When I do I will measure the actual voltage output with a test CD and my scope. I also plan to get some physical measurements off the factory connector so I can build one like I did for the TSX and Civic. I looked at the connector briefly the other day so I have an idea what to do. I haven’t seen the connector available aftermarket yet. This is the connector from the HU that plugs into the factory amp input.

I also build some balanced audio to coaxial line out adapters for the TSX guys with unbalanced amps. I’m working on a new design that should be ready in a month or two.

I also have over 30 years of electronic engineering and repair experience and fix pro audio and musical instrument amps in my spare time.

jeff

Just spend $30 for an LLC and tap in after the stock amplifier and call it a day. www.davidnavone.com

mercman...very interesting info! I do have a few questions for you. So you are saying tap the line outs at the back of the radio with balanced audio cable all the way to the next device in the chain and then you can wire up a set of RCA ends in reverse? I already have a Audio Control 4.1 that will take a balanced input so I am good there. I just wonder if my older RF amps will take a balanced input also? When you say that the Rockford Fosgate amps take a balanced input are you referring to older models also or just current ones? Either way I should be OK since I can feed a balanced or unbalanced line from the 4.1.

Thanks for the info,

John

I don’t know about the older RF stuff I just know that the new models advertise balanced inputs.
You are right, with the AC unit it doesn’t mater if the amps are balanced or not.
You still wire the + to the RCA tip and the – to the RCA ring but you use twisted pair audio cable. You don’t connect the shield wire just the two center conductors. After your AC unit you can use coaxial cable to the amps.

jeff