Has anyone upgraded their alternator yet? How much did it cost? Would honda do it for you? (I don't want to void their warranty).

I see people on Ebay and I saw a store that sells Honda Denso alternators that are wound for highre amperage.

[quote:80e288d484="mike1007"]Has anyone upgraded their alternator yet? How much did it cost? Would honda do it for you? (I don't want to void their warranty).[/quote:80e288d484]

Hey i know some people had asked about removing and alternator to replace or get it reworked rewound etc.

Wondering if anyone has had any success stories or horror stories?

Let me know where you got it done if you took it somewhere and what they had done, or where you may have picked up a high output alternator etc.

I have a 2003 Honda E DX.

I too am looking to get my alternator rewound or upgraded.

thanks in advance.

I too have been looking for an upgraded alternator but so far the aftermarket hasn't caught on to the E yet. At this point, having the factory unit rewound is the only option. Everyone that I know that has had this done has had no problems. I would have had this done already but I'm too lazy and its too cold for me to pull the factory peice out. Maybe this spring.

I am wondering who you take your alternator to to have it rewound, and how much it costs? Also, how much improvement can you get by doing this? Is there any improved aftermarket alternator on the horizon? You'd think with this drivetrain being shared across several vehicles, there'd be something available by now.

Ya, I have not heard anything from any companies yet. So if anyone has...please fill us in!

I called Ohio Generator this morning. They seemingly are the go-to guys for anybody in the car audio industry that is looking for a high output alternator. They are great to call as seemingly everybody there is named Gus. You call once and then call back and ask for Gus and the answer is, "Which one?"

I asked about a better alternator for the Element. Gus had good news and bad news. The bad news is there is no high output alternator for our car. The good news is we own a better alternator than we think we do.

Honda uses a Denso alternator in the Element. They make many of the alternators for Japanese cars. Specifically, Gus gave me this part number: 104 210 3290. This doesn't match any Honda number (http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/auto/jsp/mws/prddisplay.jsp?inputstate=5&catcgry1=Element&catcgry2=2004&catcgry3=5DR+EX+4WD+SIDE+SRS&catcgry4=KA4AT&catcgry5=ALTERNATOR+%28DENSO%29) so I'd imagine this is a Denso number. In our car, the stator (the part of the alternator that doesn't turn) uses square hairpin wiring. It is not your typical round wire and the stator cannot be re-wound (http://www.mtmscientific.com/rewind.html) to put out more current. It is what it is.

And that is better than we thought. Gus said he had in the shop half a dozen hairpin wire Denso alternators similar to ours for testing and consistently they put out 35-40 amps more than their rating. The service manual specs the Element's alternator at 90 amp. The Gus Rating System says that it is really a 125-130 amp alternator. :)

Gus recommended I use multiple batteries and better wire instead. I agreed.

. . .

Gus recommended I use multiple batteries and better wire instead. I agreed.

Great info outpost !! Thanks . . .

Does multiple batteries mean wired in parallel or connected through an isolator ?

I'm going to use one battery for the car and another for the stereo system. I've never been a fan of isolators and instead I'm going to use a high power relay from Stinger, the SR-200 (http://www.discountcarstereo.com/detail.aspx?ID=569). It will be wired like this (http://www.discountcarstereo.com/pdf/sr200.pdf) (This diagram does leave out two essential wires. The car's electrical system is still hooked up to the positive post of the car's battery and the stereo is hooked up the the positive post of the stereo's battery.). The advantage of a relay is its simplicity. It automatically sends the alternator's output to the battery with the greatest potential, in other words the battery that needs the charge the most.

The wiring diagram linked to above uses the term "true ignition" to describe a wire. From looking at my service manual, I believe the true ignition wire would be the black/white wire between the starter cut relay and the starter solenoid. I would greatly appreciate if somebody could verify this. The concept of "true ignition" still somewhat escapes me.

I'm going to use one battery for the car and another for the stereo system. I've never been a fan of isolators and instead I'm going to use a high power relay from Stinger, the SR-200 (http://www.discountcarstereo.com/detail.aspx?ID=569). It will be wired like this (http://www.discountcarstereo.com/pdf/sr200.pdf) (This diagram does leave out two essential wires. The car's electrical system is still hooked up to the positive post of the car's battery and the stereo is still hooked up the the positive post of the stereo's battery.). The advantage to a relay is its simplicity. It automatically sends the alternator's output to the battery with the greatest potential, in other words the battery that needs the charge the most.

The wiring diagram linked to above uses the term "true ignition" to describe a wire. From looking at my service manual, I believe the true ignition wire would be the black/white wire between the starter cut relay and the starter solenoid. I would greatly appreciate if somebody could verify this. The concept of "true ignition" still somewhat escapes me.


That's the same set-up I've used to charge the battery in a horse trailer through the hitch wiring on my trucks and it worked OK. (8 AWG fused with a 30A or 40A if I recall . . . ) One of the trucks had the "small" (non tow package) alternator and it worked fine. :)

Sorry, I don't know where to derive the "true ignition" signal from either. The idea is to only have the Aux Batt connected when the alternator is turning, correct ?.

The trailer battery was a deep cycle and would usually be at a lower state of charge compared to the truck battery when the trailer was connected. Having the relay energize only when the alternator was turning prevented the main battery from discharging into the aux battery.


ICHING added an isolator in this thread . . . maybe he uses the same wire we need for "true ignition" ?

http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17575

... the battery with the greatest potential, in other words the battery that needs the charge the most.
I think it's the other way around. A battery that has been discharged to 10V has less potential than a fully charged (ca. 13V) battery, yes?

I think we are talking about the same thing.

Let's use your example where one battery would read 13 volts and the other 10 volts. The charge coming in from the alternator at say 14 volts would see the greatest voltage drop across the battery with only 10 volts. 4 volts versus 1 volt. That was the potential I was thinking about, not the potential of the battery to ground. I undoubtably didn't word my original post the best.

It is really the same difference. As long as we agree that electricity flows downhill, we'll be OK. :)

My take on the "true ignition source" has to be referring to the starter. In the diagram you linked to it shows the ground, and batteries connected to one another then it shows the wire leading off to "true ignition source"... has to be the starter aka ignition.

I think it must be the starter wire. It only makes sense. The line in the instructions to make sure it is hot when the engine is cranking is the giveaway. Its purpose has to be to open the relay when the car is being started, which would disconnect the alternator from the stereo battery, feeding all of the alternator's juice toward starting the car. Once the car starts, this wire is dead and the relay can then do its trick.

Greg, do you want to move this into the Mobile Electronics Forum, or should I do it? I think it only makes sense for it to be in there.

I think it must be the starter wire. It only makes sense. The line in the instructions to make sure it is hot when the engine is cranking is the giveaway. Its purpose has to be to open the relay when the car is being started, which would disconnect the alternator from the stereo battery, feeding all of the alternator's juice toward starting the car. Once the car starts, this wire is dead and the relay can then do its trick.

So, that must mean the Stinger Contactor is a "normally closed" type relay ? Both batteries are normally in parallel except for the few seconds the starter is cranking ? :?

If so, this is not the same as the trailer battery charging setup I described earlier . . . that contactor was "normally open" so as not to drain the main battery if the trailer was left plugged in and operating (lights, fans, small refrig) from the aux battery.

Humm...I'll have to think about this. Normally open or normally closed...

As for moving the thread, Larry, I started it over here as it initially was about an alternator mod to the car. It has devolved into a Mobile Electronics thread ("It's a beautiful world we live in/A sweet romatic place"). I think you should move it but you'll have to do it as I'm still a Moderator, J.G. and don't have my full powers yet. I'm just Little Godzilla, hoping to grow up to have the same flaming bad breath as my dad. :D

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/little_godzilla_01.jpg

I think it must be the starter wire. It only makes sense. The line in the instructions to make sure it is hot when the engine is cranking is the giveaway. Its purpose has to be to open the relay when the car is being started, which would disconnect the alternator from the stereo battery, feeding all of the alternator's juice toward starting the car. Once the car starts, this wire is dead and the relay can then do its trick.

Wait . . . forget the "normally closed" idea . . . the Stinger data indicates it's "normally open" . . . so I don't think the starter wire is the one you want.

Description: Ideal for battery isolation, Stinger’s SR200 200 Amp high current relay is the most reliable and efficient way to add secondary batteries to your system. Compatible with all types of alternators and charging systems, simply connect this relay to operate when the ignition is turned on. The battery systems remain separate while the ignition is off, preventing system drain.

I'm thinking the "true ignition source" is probably the exciter wire on the Alternator . . . it's only going to be hot with the alternator running and powering the field winding and it will temporarily be hot "during cranking" as it bootstraps the field winding during spin up.:)

I looked at the diagram link posted by outpost4, and I think it works as follows. The relay contacts are connected between the plus terminals of the two batteries. The relay coil is connected between ignition and ground. Whenever ignition is on, the contacts close and the second battery charges from the primary battery and alternator. It's very simple, and you won't discharge your primary battery with your stereo system, since the batteries are not connected when the ignition is off. But if you discharge the second battery, the current through the relay is going to be hundreds of amps when the contacts close (assuming you have used really big wire). This is because your primary battery can put out much more current than your alternator can. Hopefully, this won't fry the relay contacts. Also, this huge current is going to flow out of your primary battery at the very moment when you need cranking power for the engine. Doesn't sound that good to me.

There is another potential problem that is not so obvious. The relay needs to be big. Its coil may carry a lot of current. When you shut off your ignition switch, the coil might generate a large inductive voltage spike, which will be connected directly to all the stuff on your ignition circuit. This is not good at all. If the relay vendor has added spike suppression components to the relay, this may not be a problem.

If it were my car, I would prefer the following: do not connect the relay coil plus terminal directly to the ignition circuit. Connect a toggle switch between the ignition circuit and the relay coil plus terminal. When I want to charge the second battery, I flip the switch on. This means that the second battery won't be sucking charge from the primary battery while I am starting the car. I have to find out how much current the relay coil takes, and select a switch that is rated for that current or more.

Standard disclaimer: I have not tested this. You can get hurt or killed while playing with automotive electrical circuits. You may damage your vehicle. It's not my fault.

. . . Also, this huge current is going to flow out of your primary battery at the very moment when you need cranking power for the engine. Doesn't sound that good to me.
. . .

I agree with what you've said and shown; this is the same set-up that is sometimes used to charge Aux batteries through trailer hitch wiring . . . what if, instead of the relay coil energizing from the ignition circuit, it was connected to a +12V connection on the "run" side of the ignition switch (like from the power windows, ABS pump, etc.)

When the ignition switched is pushed to the "start" position, the powered accessories are usually switched off momentarily. Wouldn't this eliminate the Main batt discharging into the Aux batt during cranking ? :cool:

In either case, do you agree the starter wire should not be used for the coil circuit ?

Also, I think these type of relays have the flyback diodes built in and sometimes an "economizer" circuit that limits the Hold-In currents to a 100 mA or so (v.s. Pull-In currents of 3.0 + A)

Here's the relay I'm using - Kilovac EV200 :)

http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/ev200.pdf

Yes, using the accessory circuit might work, if it is rigged the way you describe.

I'm a little worried about the spike suppression problem. The SR-200 description says you can wire the relay coil in either direction. That means they haven't included diodes. Maybe they've got some other kind of suppression. Someone should ask them. The Kilovac relay looks really good. Here is the problem with the inductive kick: first, it reverses the polarity of the voltage on the ignition circuit. Second, the reverse voltage can be really big: hundreds or thousands of volts. This could get very expensive.

The starter wire probably will not work, since it is energized only during starting. So your second battery will charge only during starting, which is not a good time, and not long enough. The SR-200 description says the coil is energized all the time that the ignition is on, if you hook it up the way they want you to. So they are hooking it up to the ignition power, not the starter.

Yes, using the accessory circuit might work, if it is rigged the way you describe . . .

I would still use your additional toggle switch idea to control the relay . . . I like that !! :) Might be times when you want "manual" overide to get the #2 battery off-line.

D'oh! Of course the relay is normally open. That's now obvious. Only when the car is running is it closed.

Equally obvious is the fact that the trigger wire is an ignition wire. What threw me is that they want it hot when the starter is cranking. Wouldn't you want it cold at that point? If it's hot, the stereo's battery is in the circuit. I could care less if it is getting a charge while the car is starting. In fact, as mentioned before you might be best to have it out of the circuit at that point.

I like the idea of putting it on an accessory circuit as you describe, Box4Rox.

I'm less wild about the switch. I'm just the kind of guy to leave it in the wrong position and then wonder why my stereo won't play. Dummy, the battery is dead because you left the switch in the wrong position. Maybe if I had an idiot light on it that would be OK.

I appreciate the need for the spike prevention circuit. I do really like that Tyco relay. It looks a lot better than the Stinger one. Thanks for bringing it to the table, Box. It seems like it solves all the problems and is rated for more current than the Stinger piece. Why am I not surprised that in a quick search, I found that it would cost me six times more than the Stinger relay? :) I also appreciate your help and advice, Motie.

It's 3AM and I'm up for the day. Early morning is a great time to think about these kind of issues. :)

Oh, and thanks for moving the thread over here, Larry. I'm all powerful now that I'm back in my domain.

Mmmwwwwwaaaahhhhhh!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/940070/gozillafire.JPG

Things are so much clearer today than yesterday. I love our different ways of thinking. I kept focusing on the thing I didn't understand - the "true ignition" wire - and got more confused whereas Box4Rox and Motie concentrated on what they did know - relays - and figured it out. Thanks again, guys.

With that clarity, I ordered up the Tyco relay. It was $151.79 plus shipping. I found an online site for Newark (http://www.newark.com/). I trust them.

EDIT: Check a few posts down for better service at half the price from another company.

I look at it this way: I can afford a better relay because I don't have to pay to get my alternator re-wound. Plus, I could own something called either Stinger or Kilovac. Come on. It's a no brainer. Kilovac rules! :D

It's like a custom home keypad/distribution/speaker company we carry, Nuvo. Their chief technical assistance guy is Ready Kilowatt. That's the only name he uses, at least at work. He answers the phone, "Kilowatt!" :)

What they mean by true ignition wire is most likely the ignition wire that is not off when the starter is engaged. If you look at you Honda ignition harness you will find two ignition wires. One that is hot while the key is in the start and on position. The other one is only hot when the key is in the on position and goes dead when the key is in the start position.

John

. . .

With that clarity, I ordered up the Tyco relay. It was $151.79 plus shipping. I found an online site for Newark (http://www.newark.com/). I trust them.

I look at it this way: I can afford a better relay because I don't have to pay to get my alternator re-wound. Plus, I could own something called either Stinger or Kilovac. Come on. It's a no brainer. Kilovac rules! :D . . .


Good Choice . . . You have recycled your tax dollars wisely :)

The original Kilovac that ours are cloned from was developed 12 years ago for the power distribution system on the International Space Station (ISS) . . . We have hundreds of them flying on orbit as we speak. The original prototype stuff we worked with were tens of thousands of dollars (this is a vacuum relay, hot switching hundreds of amps at 160 volts dc with contact arc suppression/quenching)

The NASA rated stuff we ended up building with are a thousand or so dollars and now it has emerged into the commercial marketplace (without the NASA certs) as the EV200 for 150 bucks !!

There are others from kilovac like this - they were all nicknamed after (big, beefy) football players - Ours is the "Czonka". We also used the "Bubba" on the ISS.

I have mine installed but not completely wired yet; it's going to be used for a trailer battery - I'll try and get some pics. I'm probably going to wire the coil to the "run" position on the ignition unless we all come up with a better idea :grin:

Pic of one of the ISS modules (airlock) before it went up . . .
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a246/box4rox/Other_E/ISS_node.jpg

Boy, somebody up there is watching out for idiots and fools, namely me. :)

NewarkInOne, Newark's online store (www.newark.com) somehow never placed my order for the Kilovac EV200 relay. I've been checking on it. Today I couldn't even log in to their site. I called the 800 number and verified that the initial order was lost and then tried to place it again. I was told the relay would cost me $5 more than the online price but I said it was worth $5 to talk to a person. I did have a nice woman on the phone to help me. But she also had order entry problems with my order. Their system couldn't get my credit card approved (a up-to-date account with less than $300 charged against a $6K limit). This was a different card than the one I used for the online order, thinking that might have been the first problem. After futzing around with this for a while and not getting anything back from the credit card company, positive or negative, I finally said forget it and please cancel the order. I'll go elsewhere.

I then did a little more shopping using Google. I quickly found KTA Services out of Upland, California, (www.kta-ev.com/catalog/) Their online price for this relay was $80. Calling, it was actually $78 plus $6 UPS ground shipping. Wonderful! My card was approved no problem and I saved $80.

Thank you KTA Services and my guardian angel. :)

Here is a 200 amp one from Lightning Audio for $59.95

http://www.cardomain.com/item/LITS200

John

When we were putting together my system, I had planned on a higher output alternator along with the OPtima battery...and I got the same response. Apparently our alternators are decent. I may add a second battery sometime, especially if I add screens and dvd and navigation...but thats all just dreamin!

pz

jb

Boy, somebody up there is watching out for idiots and fools, namely me. :) . . .

I quickly found KTA Services out of Upland, California, (www.kta-ev.com/catalog/) Their online price for this relay was $80. Calling, it was actually $78 plus $6 UPS ground shipping. Wonderful! My card was approved no problem and I saved $80.

Thank you KTA Services and my guardian angel. :)

Wow !! Great find on the Kilovac EV200. . . that's $6.00 cheaper than I paid and I was using my company discount (15%) with one of our local suppliers. :?

Mine is installed on the fender wall under the fusebox in the engine compartment (and heavily gooped up with “liquid tape"); I wired the coil with an "add a circuit" fuse tap on the under dash fusebox to an accessory that was hot only in the "run" position.

My extra battery will be a deep cycle in a Teardrop trailer we’re building . . . it should be ready in a few weeks (I hope !). I’ve tested the Kilovac/Alternator setup through the hitch wiring (about 20 ft of 8 AWG) on an old size 51 battery and it seems to be working OK :)

I want to know how big is the alternator becouse I have a lot of toys in my element i dont want to have problems!!!! Can I upgrade the OEM alternator?

The answer is no, there seems to be no alternator upgrade although we have a better alternator than we think we do. This issue was well discussed here (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20261). I have put the second battery in my car, which is something that it sounds like you may want to do, using the NASA-ready relay mentioned in the linked thread. That install is show here (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?p=234563#post234563).

yellow top Optima.........

I have lots of toys.......last week i kept my Igloo cooller plugged in over the weekend...Monday when I got in....heard the hum...said oh ****......pushed the start button...No problem.......

Love the Yellow........

Does any company make a higher-output alternator for the K24?

What is the stock output?

Thanks!

The stock alternator has a 105 amp output I believe.

Sheesh, if its that low i'll definately need an upgrade. :)

110-amp for the stock alternator if it's the same as the Accord which it should be, same engine.

EDIT: Nope you're right it's 105

what are you runing in there "E" :confused:

From what I've heard there is no replacement for the E short of a custom one.

Honda Ghandi told me once b4 that the E's alt. is very strong so I would think it would work for any set up you're planning on with aftermarket accessories.

what are you runing in there "E" :confused:

A decent system.

From what I've heard there is no replacement for the E short of a custom one.

Honda Ghandi told me once b4 that the E's alt. is very strong so I would think it would work for any set up you're planning on with aftermarket accessories.

I suppose i'll be putting it to the test then. :D

I wonder if that Kicker E has an upgraded alternator...

i forget the name of the company that makes them but, when i was into all the system stuff their was a company that you sent your alternator to and they rewound it to make them put out more current. just snoop around online you should find it.:cool:

I wonder if that Kicker E has an upgraded alternator...



NO, My Element does not have anything other than the stock alternator.

Just so you can compare to the system you plan on putting in your Element.

I am running 8 amps pushing over 4500 watts.

I have two stinger batteries.

and my E handles the load with no problems.

So unless you are going way over the 4500 watts that I have the stock alternator is just fine.

Put your cash into more/better stuff and stinger batteries and you won't go wrong.

BiG T

That's what I wanted to hear! Thanks!

I think you might find that the Odyssey is a higher output with possible 'bolt-on' ability. When I was looking on purchase in 03 that was one option I had but went with external power booster.

I need some guidance to charge my batteries. Is there any alternator out there? :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

58570

Those seeking a higher output alternator would want to click HERE (http://www.ohiogen.com/) :cool:

I was looking for a high output alternator also and found your post. Your post have helped alot, I just have one question, How exactly do you run the second battery? Do you simply hook the neg and neg of each battery together and do the same with positive?

Monsterpaint, you can install the battery in parallel as you described. The problem I see with an element and having two batteries installed in parallel is where do you safely install the battery, as there is no trunk, and not enough room under the hood. If you want to run the battery and accesories from the second battery independently you need to isolate it

180 amp alternator available for the E here: http://www.maniacelectricmotors.com/180amphioual.html

this may have been posted, on lunch, did not have time to read all posts.

I was looking for a high output alternator also and found your post. Your post have helped alot, I just have one question, How exactly do you run the second battery? Do you simply hook the neg and neg of each battery together and do the same with positive?

yes. you may want to isolate the batteries from one another if you plan on running your stereo or other high draw devices with the engine off so that the accessory position on the key doesnt connect the rear battery to the front and the alternator but the ignition/run position does. then you run your high current stuff off the rear battery which will charge when the truck is running, but leave the front battery able to have a full charge so you can start the element, even if the rear battery gets low. there are many battery isolators out there that would work to do this, that way the alternator doesnt fry the front battery when recharging the rear battery.

Monsterpaint, you can install the battery in parallel as you described. The problem I see with an element and having two batteries installed in parallel is where do you safely install the battery, as there is no trunk, and not enough room under the hood. If you want to run the battery and accesories from the second battery independently you need to isolate it

if you use a AGM or gel cell sealed battery you can have it safely in the car unlike a normal lead acid battery. then you just need a battery try or box to mount it in the rear or even the spare tire well with the size that some of them are these days.

I've searched "alternator" in this section and the Under the Hood section but couldn't come up with anything.

Anyone replaced their alternator w/ a higher amperage one? I don't know much about the technical brewhaha that goes into the whole alternator thing, but what I do know (or at least what I think I understand) is that the belt has to turn the thing at a certain rate in order for the unit's peak amperage to be achieved.

So, that being the case (if, in fact, that is the case) is it possible to install a higher amperage alternator and actually reach that unit's specified peak amperage? Or, I guess a better question would be, what's the highest amperage you could go without going overboard and installing something that isn't producing the amps it's specified to produce?

Hope that makes sense, appreciate any info. Thanks.

I found one on ebay at 250 amp:-o


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/250A-HIGH-OUTPUT-ALTERNATOR-Honda-Accord-2-4L-2003-2007-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZMakeQ3aHondaQ7cModelQ3aEle mentQQhashZitem3a622b398aQQitemZ250755103114QQptZM otorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories


Bert

www.maniacelectricmotors.com or ebay

^^Or Mechman.
http://www.mechmanhighoutputalternators.com/shop/products/270-amp-Honda%7B47%7DAcura-T-mount-alternator.html

Or DC Power Engineering.
https://www.dcpowerinc.com/13980-320-hp.html

^^Not sure if those are the exact one's that will fit, but if not I'm fairly certain either company can build one for you.