It would be grand to have a diesel-powered E!

I agree with the above statement... Diesels well be evermore a part of the American Market place as Enviromental fears continue to sweep this country, creating outlandish request for vehicle emissions. Most people do not realize the effencency of the Diesel engine, and what is being done with them in the European market. Besides the torque of such an engine would be of great benefit to the AWD versions. Honda could be a leader in bringing the diesel to a realization as an alternative to the tired gasoline engine, making the diesel worthy of a second look. I know I'd be VERY interested in purchasing another Element with this option, if so designed.
Thank You for your time.

[quote:f45033562f="GeepM"]I agree with the above statement... Diesels well be evermore a part of the American Market place as Enviromental fears continue to sweep this country, creating outlandish request for vehicle emissions. Most people do not realize the effencency of the Diesel engine, and what is being done with them in the European market. Besides the torque of such an engine would be of great benefit to the AWD versions. Honda could be a leader in bringing the diesel to a realization as an alternative to the tired gasoline engine, making the diesel worthy of a second look. I know I'd be VERY interested in purchasing another Element with this option, if so designed.
Thank You for your time.[/quote:f45033562f] Diesels may have their attributes for the person who owns it but they REALLY pollute the environment. They have the most overpowering odor. With more diesels on the road the government will have to issue out gas masks to everyone so they can breathe. I live in an area that abounds with diesels trucks large and small, they are everywhere and one literally has to hold their breath long enough to escape the fumes they emit. I would rather see a hybrid or something else, but please NO DIESELS!

LittleDogBox
Arlington,Va

[quote:90a5818dbf="LittleDogBox"][quote:90a5818dbf="GeepM"]Diesels well be evermore a part of the American Market place as Enviromental fears continue to sweep this country, creating outlandish request for vehicle emissions. Most people do not realize the effencency of the Diesel engine, and what is being done with them in the European market.[/quote:90a5818dbf]Diesels may have their attributes for the person who owns it but they REALLY pollute the environment.[/quote:90a5818dbf]

Actually, not so much any more. The new diesel engines are both very efficient (40+ mpg) and much less polluting than before.

The soon to be introduced diesel fuel regulations in the US will require sulpher-reduced fuels, which may make emissions handling easier for them.

Research the Volkswagen Passet TDI for more info - here's an article from 1996, early in the TDI engine era:

http://caranddriver.radicalmedia.com/member/curIssue/may_96/passat/

An epinions article claiming the 2003 is getting 65ish mpg:

http://www.epinions.com/content_95793221252

TDIFaq on emissions:

http://www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-5.html

It seems there are some type-of-substance balance issues, possibilities of fixes based on low-sulpher fuel availability.

Also, diesel-type engines are the only type that will ever be able to run on biofuels, which may, or may not, become one of the renewable energy sources of the future.

And finally, an interesting WIRED article:

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,60269,00.html

-brendan

I'd prefer a Diesel over a Hybrid any day. Diesels are proven and simple, while Hybrids are new and complex (read expensive to maintain). With low-sulfur Diesel becoming standard in the near future, my next car may very well be a Diesel. Also, lets not forget that Diesel engines typically have gobs of power, especially torque, while Hybrids are still pretty weak.

In fact, our final shopping list was this:

1) Honda Element
2) Honda CR-V
3) Wait for soon-to-be-released VW Passat TDI-PD Wagon.
4) VW Jetta Wagon TDI

Obviously we chose the Element for its size. That and Diesels coming from VW are going to be much more powerful once low-sulfur is standard (q.v., the Touareg V10 TDI). The second big factor was that having two Passats might be a little weird...

thought id point out a good source of info regarding biodiesel.

best!
D.

http://www.humboldt.edu/~ccat/at/biodiesel/index.html

Back in 1962 at the Seattle World's Fair, there was a car of the future that applied the use of changing engines as easy as changing tires; the front would seperate and a second choice could be attached easily by the owner on a diy basis. With this idea in mind why not make a Element with easy plug-in adapters and connections that could be universally applied and make a few engine (read power train options) "modules" that would be sold fairly cheaply so one could have a choice of what "module" to put in that day depending on where he wanted to go. A four- , a six-, and an eight-cylindar engine; a diesel, a hydrogen power plant, an electric/gas hybrid, etc etc, ad nauseum.

Ger

[quote:2227f422fc="Ger Brassfield"]....A four- , a six-, and an eight-cylindar engine; a diesel, a hydrogen power plant, an electric/gas hybrid, etc etc, ad nauseum.
[/quote:2227f422fc]

Don't forget the Mr. Fusion!

-brendan

put that pesky neurontium q-36 space de-modulator...
its the center to my flux core generator you know...attached to the anti matter pods.

I have nothing against diesels except for the smell of the fuel. My boss has one and I have taken it on road trips and without fail I spilleddiesel all over my handsevery time I would fill the smelly, noisy rattling thing up. The new ones like the cherolet Duramax is quieter and I'm sure less rattly than his 2001 Dodge cummins. I am sure that Euro Diesels are great but I would have to ride in one to be convinced. Regarding lowsulphur diesel. I work in the industrial construction idustry and most refineries are putting hydro desulphurizers so I believe that by 05 ther will not be high sulfur diesel anymore. I will shut up now.

I think a 4-cylinder diesel in the Element would fix a few problems.

1) Fixed the gas milage problems

2) Increase torque.

3) Possibly because of the higher gas milage; reducing the size of the gas tank so it doesn't hang so low.

Of course, going a little off topic, I think the V6 would not be a bad option. If the Accord can have it why can't we?

i think id be very happy to purchase my next E with a diesel.
fuel flexibility in a pinch, beter torque. has it all over the bad mileage im getting now.

best!
D.

I've driven a VW Jetta Diesel for three years - and was very reluctant to give it up.

The fuel economy of a Diesel was outstanding (50 mpg) and the low engine rpms make for a nice ride at highway speeds. I'd REALLY like to see a Diesel "E" option available in the next few years - hopefully, I'll be able to trade my SOP for the same thing - but with a nice fuel efficient Diesel engine instead.

Just one person's opinion

bluehighways,
if you cant work the pump without spilling the fuel "all over [your] hands," how is that the fault of it being diesel?
gas isn't exactly eu de toilette...
i am just weary of diesels bad rap, and would love to replace my vw tdi with a honda diesel that i could trust to run!

Nooooo, no RATTLERS!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

that a hybrid is in testing, and they are evaluating a european market diesel for possible future implementation, when asked about a flexible fuel / diesel, i was told "ah but you know honda doesnt work that fast on anything"


just a headsup
D.

Diesel Hybrid!!!!!!

I would trade my current E and buy a diesel E in a heartbeat. Those who think they stink and rattle should try a VW TDI diesel. Awesome power plant. Smooth, quiet and tons of torque.

GimEE a DiEsEl E

I've traveled to Germany countless times over the last few years and have been very impressed with the Diesels over there. Most people prefer Diesels there because the fuel is cheaper, delivers more miles (kilometers), and provides awesome torque. In particular, I road in a couple different Audis with turbo Diesels that literally put you back in your seat, ran as quietly as gasoline, and produced no undesirable smell or soot. The technology for Diesels today has come along way in producing clean, efficient engines.

With that said, I would favor an Element with a Diesel any day versus a gasoline or hybrid. But I love my current E' nonetheless!

Honda will release their new diesel power plant in Europe effective Feb 2004.

2.2 L engine with Aluminum Block

Available only on the Accord.

Foe details on the UK offering see:

http://www.honda.co.uk/newcars/accordDiesel.html?10734

There is hope for a Honda Diesel Element - but I suspect this will take a number of years. Maybe it will be available when I'm ready to trade my SOP for a newer version - hopefully at least 6 years from now.

It's great little car. It took a few days to learn to shift, the torque is so low in the RPM. Very easy to over rev the engine, then the torque just drops to 0. I suspect the drop is controlled by the engine processor to protect it from over rev. Once I got that down, it is a ball.

Diesel has been great. no problems. easily over 40 mpg. It is my wife's car. 95% non-highway miles.

Year ago a friend had a diesel VW rabbit. It would scare the **** out of me when he would try to merge on the interstate. Rabbit was the wrong name for the car.

The TDI engine, is not the same beast. No diesel noise and very good power. I found a TDI forum on the web and people were speaking of getting over 80mpg. They were taking advantage of some design differences with the TDI diesel.

I think they have they same light foot as the E folks who are getting 30MPG. I have never seen even 25 MPG in my E.

Both the E and bugs have 5 speed manuals for a reason.



FUN...

I would consider a diesel E... But then i expect to get 7 more years out of this one.. Youngest son, leaves for college then. Older one gets the Beetle in 5 years.. Wife and I get to go shopping again. :D So Honda has 7 years to bring it to market. Maybe the windshield issue will be resolved by then..

but the above mentioned accord diesel? 4 cylinder, right? hmmmm, don't i have a 4 cylinder accord engine in my e now? how hard would it be to swap? not as easy as swapping out engines in my old 71 superbeetle, i'm sure... but is it do-able? personally, the only thing i liked about my old diesel rabbit was the mpg, but y'all are making me think that diesels are worth a second look. plus, i saw a blurb on tv the other day about some cazy southerner sticking vegetable oil from restaurants (bio-fuel???) in his tank. that would be a nice alternatiive for post-apocolyptic living . :D

Had a VW TDI that was great. Actually traded it in for the E. They have great power and TORQUE and are SUPER quiet. I am hoping that the improved diesel requirements will allow toyota, honda and other companies bring their diesels into the US. A diesel E, I would DEFINATELY check it out!

Honda makes a diesel that's part of the family of engines in the Civic/RSX/Element/TSX/CRV line. They have a 132hp 2.2L turbo diesel with an all aluminum alloy engine (very rare for a diesel). It is supposed to be one of the smoothest diesels on the market in Europe and Japan. I personally would love an Element with one, or even a Civic Si hatch with one. It's also supposed to be one of the cleanest diesels in the world.

I really wish that Honda would bring this engine over to the USA and make it optional in every single Honda badged car they sell. Until we get low sulfur diesel this won't be happening though.

http://www.honda.co.uk/newcars/accordDiesel.html?10730 for more information

>I really wish that Honda would bring this engine over to the USA

Soichiro Honda himself once stated rather defiantly that his company would never produce a diesel car. The Honda corporate culture remains pretty much anti-diesel.

Their diesel in Europe is really, really new. They still wouldn't have one at all if the market wasn't dragging them into it kicking and screaming. Well over 50% of new cars sold in Europe have diesel engines, and Honda was losing market share because they didn't offer one. But better late to the party than not at all, something Honda is known for, anyway.

Given Honda's bias plus the market perception problems that diesel cars have in the U.S., I'd say the chances of a diesel E are slim and none. We'll see hybrids first, and then maybe diesels once the hybrid myth is finally debunked. But at that point the Element concept will have run its course.

We need a SEMA show vehicle to generate interest. Most US buyers don't even know that Honda has diesels, or that most cars in the world these days do. They're typically not familiar with the changes that automobile diesels have undergone since the last round of cars with diesels.

Say the word diesel and most people think of a big rig, or a dually for towing horse trailers or some such thing clattering and stinking. Like everything else, the US manufacturers have put very little into diesels (in the US market) because their corporate culture leans toward doing the minimum needed to get by. This is why they got surpassed by Honda and the Japanese. Also, the Japanese were the first to really hop on the ISO bandwagon in the 40s and 50s to do major corporate restructuring to meet higher standards of quality. The Americans basically ignored the designer & systems expert who was the primary proponent of this.

Back to the SEMA car. It has to be yellow, diesel engine, skid plates, a height adjustable suspension, stainless brushguards, offroading lights, and some serious Outback crossing tude.

I would buy a 4 cylinder or other size diesel in the Element in a heartbeat! Maybe Honda could partner with VW and put their TDI in the Element. Sound good anyone?

K

The VW TDI is really cool, but as one of the first direct injection diesels in passenger cars, it suffers from some bugs. They are pretty expensive to keep up, because the timing belt changes require a computer reset, and up until recently required timing belts at 40,000 miles (that has been changed to 80,000 miles).

Now, judging from what people have had happen with their Elements, I would say that Honda isn't immune from first time bugs, but the folks in Europe say that their diesel is great. I think I'd rather have the Honda diesel for a few reasons. 1) It's all aluminum, so no heavier than the gasoline version. 2) It's one of the cleanest diesels out 3) It makes more power and torque than the US market VW TDI (132bhp vs 90bhp). 4) the Euro press has said it's about the smoothest running and quietest diesel they've ever tested. If we only had low sulfur diesel here in the US, then Honda would pretty easily be able to start putting their diesel into basically every car they sell (it's based on the new 4 cylinder family)

[quote:5356b31f65=" "]If we only had low sulfur diesel here in the US, then Honda would pretty easily be able to start putting their diesel into basically every car they sell (it's based on the new 4 cylinder family)[/quote:5356b31f65]

I'm not really clear why people want to use a fuel that smells horrible, is more toxic than gasoline, and costs more. I guess for the mileage improvement.

Well, a VW Golf TDI gets almost twice the fuel mileage of a gasoline model. Also diesels have a lot of torque. Modern diesels are pretty clean, and typically run pretty smoothly. If I could have more torque and better fuel economy then I'd be pretty happy. Here in Kansas and Missouri, diesel fuel is also costs the same or less as regular 87 octane gasoline.

Honda can not sell their new Diesel engine in the USA till the USA decides to lower the sulfur content. Most modern Diesels in the rest of the world will not run on the USA Diesel.

Low sulfur diesel is mandated for 2006. I imagine it'll be available before that though. I'd definitely take a diesel Element though.

I owned a 1980 Diesel Rabbit. Forever put a bad taste in my mouth for anything VW.
I will consider a Diesel Element if it ever becomes an option. Love the Torque, I drive mostly in the city, and the MPG increase will be welcome.

So many techno wieners. I can hook up a couple of clydsdales, throw some bales in the back and I can travel with ZERO mpg and emmisions (other than the fertilizer, which I will gladly dispense gratis to the farmers along the way). That's what I call BIOfuel! Don't discount way old school :lol:

>I owned a 1980 Diesel Rabbit. Forever put a bad taste in my mouth for anything VW.

:lol:

Me too! I had a '77. I loved the 54 mpg. I hated the amount of time it spent in the shop... and the $1200 bill (on a $4500 car) to replace the fuel injector pump 1500 miles after the warranty expired.

>I can hook up a couple of clydsdales...

Very funny. Some wag many years ago pointed-out that (in California) if we instead still rode horses, but the same way we now drive cars, the entire state would be covered 6 to 8 feet deep in horse... uh... doovers.

I recently read an article somewhere that stated that even with the 2006 low-sulfur fuel, because of CARB (damn Californians.... ;) ) and another agency's step up in emissions regs that nearly all current Diesels, even with low-sulfur fuel, would not meet the new regulations.

There are some promising technologies. One I believe is a special cat from Peugeot and Bosch is working on some ultra efficient fuel injectors that help a lot. Whether or not they'll have it done in time is a big if.

So for now, nobody, Japanese, American, or European is going to spend vast amounts of resources (people or money) to develop and/or market a Diesel engine in the US unless they're sure they can get more shelf-life out of it than between now and 2006. Those that have Diesels already that meet current standards will keep them around (DaimlerChrysler, Volkswagen), but they're not going to design new ones unless they can make them clean enough. And after 2006 they'll probably disappear.

I too would LOVE a Diesel Element. Perfect engine for the car IMHO. Hybrids are overrated. You don't get the performance or economy of a Diesel, but you get much more complexity. Sure, the Prius is rated at 60/51, but I've heard real world economy in the city of approx 40 mpg. Thats not much better than a Honda Civic (non-hybrid) and far worse than the real world economy of the VW TDI at about 45 city and 50+ on the freeway. Not to mention there is no loss of performance as your batteries drain, no battery replacement, and better performance. In my eye, hybrids, while a good step, are more hype (and well marketed) than hope.

Bring on the Diesel Element (and Accord, Civic, CR-V....)


EDIT: Someone mentioned Honda despises Diesels. It is true. They did it after trying as hard as possible not to. But in Europe, you can't sell big if you don't offer it.

Anyway, as an interesting proof, visit honda UK's website. Straight up there they say they despise diesels, hate them in fact. And because they hate them, thats what allowed them to build such a good one. http://www.honda.co.uk Enjoy.

I have a 2001 Dodge Diesel 6 Speed HO engine as well as my Element. Now don't get me wrong I love my Element. It is one of the few small cars that fit's me. I am 6'3" 250 lbs. My truck weigs 6630 lbs and will get 23 MPG on the hiway.

Check this site for a real Diesel.

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

That'll surely put you over the 675# carrying limit...

-brendan

Common-Rail Diesels will replace gasoline engines. Or at least, they will certainly give them a good run for their money. The only major downside to the diesel is the more expensive oil changes (Some of these diesel motors take over 10 quarts of oil).

But Diesel is cheaper than regular un-leaded here in Texas, and over 50% of stations even in the city now carry fuel oil. I have always wondered why we don't see diesel-electric hybrids.

[quote:26ee6644c0=" "]I recently read an article somewhere that stated that even with the 2006 low-sulfur fuel, because of CARB (damn Californians.... ;) ) and another agency's step up in emissions regs that nearly all current Diesels, even with low-sulfur fuel, would not meet the new regulations.[/quote:26ee6644c0]

I'd like a pointer to that artice if possible. If true, that's no doubt a lobbying effort on the part of a gasoline cabal.

FWIW, the V10 TDI VW Touareg is now available, about 3x the dough as an Element - but daaaaamn, it's a mover.

I'd have bought the diesel in my e if it was available.

And fwiw a properly tuned diesel does produce more emissions than a gas engine but the nature of those emissions is far less toxic.
ie carbon dioxide and water versus CO SO2 etc for gas engines...

I was thinking about a diesel E this weekend and lookie here, you guys were already on it. I figured there would be a thread about this!

Its a shame we have to wait until 2006 for the new fuel standards all assuming honda brings the diesel to the E.

I would trade my 23mpg E for a diesel with out hesitation. I would even expect to loose money on the trade up just to save the fuel costs. Right now I'm getting nailed b/c I drive 500 miles every weekend to see my wife in medical school. That equals 3 fill-ups a week for the E!! I figure a diesel would cut that in half.

If they don't offer one soon and this euro-spec accord diesel can run on our new fuel (2006). I will seriously consider trying to swap out the E's engine all monster garage style!!

Cheers,

The day that Honda offers a diesel in an Element is the day I'll be buying a pig that flies. And it will be so much weirder than whatever everybody else is driving. Plus the visibility will be so much better -- no more A-pillar blind spots to worry about!. I'll be the envy of so many!! (My Honda flying pig will have a fish carburetor, too! Google that, you dreamers!)

Besides getting better mileage than gasoline engines, Diesels are also more durable. That means you can save money on fuel and keep your E for even more years. I remember when diesels were real pigs...they were slow, dirty, and they stunk. They are not that way anymore. My friend has the turbo cummings diesel in his Dodge pickup and it MOVES! The E would be the perfect vehicle to drop a 4 cyl. turbo diesel under its hood. Do it Honda!