Ok frustrated with the K&N crowd for not getting off the dime and releasing their CAI and unsure about the Injen CAI fog lights issues etc I have started to think about doing one of two things.

1. Most drastic make my own CAI, tube the whole thing and use an aftermarket filter element on the end with intake running down into front bumper like Injen unit

2. Adding a "snorkle" to the current box to reach into the lower bumper for air.

I think the second route would be best since the filter element is rather large already and would most likely be able to pull about as much air as the first option

The whole concept is to collect ambient air vs. heated engine compartment air, I know there may be flow issues with #2 but it seems rather doable.

Any thoughts ideas?

How about you buy the Injen CAI, then buy Hella fog lamps with the angel eyes. The Hella lamps are German engineered, fit in the sockets without the bulk of the OEM fogs, only cost $59 at Pep Boys, and look much better than the OEM fogs.

Just read the Injen site and they say that using the CAI in wet weather may damage your engine and will void your warentee. Is this really true that they cant figure a way to keep water out of this thing?

I've been running the Injen Long Ram for over 1000 miles, all kinds of weather and not a single problem.

Gas mileage is up, performance has increased.

[quote:693f901e72="isdkelly"]Just read the Injen site and they say that using the CAI in wet weather may damage your engine and will void your warentee. Is this really true that they cant figure a way to keep water out of this thing?[/quote:693f901e72]

....I've been running CAI systems in all my cars since 1999 and I live in MA....the E sits higher than both the other cars with the cold air intakes and all I can say....don't drive over rivers....pouring rain, blizzards and heavy snow was never and is not an issue ..Injen is trying to cover all bases and not have idiots suing them when they decide to cross the Mississippi..... :roll:

Here is a thought that might be right out of the Twilight Zone (or maybe just a little out of the ordinary) when it comes to the CAI.......Why not a snorkle going out the side of the fender and going up about 6 inches above the hood, but off to the side (kinda like the truck that Pierce Brosnan drove in the movie about a volcano that erupted). Would that work better and not get too wet and look kewl????

Ger

The raised intake in the Volcano movie is called a snorkel, that's intended for serious 4x4's that cross streams so that they do not suck water into the intake. A K/N filter is not designed to be outside of the engine bay so don't go that route. The snorkels, if anything, restrict airflow and they are strictly for serious 4x4's.

I would skip the CAI all together. I realize they are a popular mod and people like them, but they don't add any power worth mentioning, like most riceboy mods. With a small naturally aspirated engine like this, a turbo or supercharger or genuine modifications like intake manifold *combined* with new heads, cams, fuel systems etc. are the path to real power.

If you don't mind being parted with your money and you judge by the seat of the pants rather than actual science, then be my guest.

[quote:c2ac20d107="hedgeborn"]The raised intake in the Volcano movie is called a snorkel, that's intended for serious 4x4's that cross streams so that they do not suck water into the intake. A K/N filter is not designed to be outside of the engine bay so don't go that route. The snorkels, if anything, restrict airflow and they are strictly for serious 4x4's.

I would skip the CAI all together. I realize they are a popular mod and people like them, but they don't add any power worth mentioning, like most riceboy mods. With a small naturally aspirated engine like this, a turbo or supercharger or genuine modifications like intake manifold *combined* with new heads, cams, fuel systems etc. are the path to real power.

If you don't mind being parted with your money and you judge by the seat of the pants rather than actual science, then be my guest.[/quote:c2ac20d107]

Have you ever used a CAI in a Honda before? Honda air boxes are notoriously restrictive. The gains are very significant, and for only $170, I think the CIA offers the best bang for the buck compared to the "real" power mods that you mentioned.

[quote:717e876e37="ChumsGum"]

Have you ever used a CAI in a Honda before? Honda air boxes are notoriously restrictive. The gains are very significant, and for only $170, I think the CIA offers the best bang for the buck compared to the "real" power mods that you mentioned.[/quote:717e876e37]


I don't think there is any harm in it, provided that it's not too low or anywhere where it can suck up dirt or water. That is the reason factory airboxes are the way they are. To keep crap out of your intake.

$170 is a bit much for a metal tube with an air filter on it IMO. Like I said, if they did anything significant they would be on cars already. Even high performance cars do not come with them, that should tell you something.

I've seen the dynos done by the companies themselves. The gains are definitely NOT significant. Even with an exhuast and other mods the gains, if any are any gains we are talking a few horsepower at high RPMs. They do make your intake sound cooler. Hey, it's your car afterall. I guess I just can't help but :roll: when I hear people talking about how their cars are faster and more responsive etc. afterwards. It's a placebo effect and the numbers support that.

CAI's do very little for performance. That is the truth. Anybody who knows anything about performance will tell you that.

If you want an inexpensive mod that will give you a real measureable effect, a thicker rear anti-sway bar is the best way to spend that $170. It will noticeably improve your handling. Don't waste your money on exhaust systems, fart mufflers and CAI's. It's hard to get real gains on an N/A engine, If you want to improve performance but don't have $1000's to spend, put money into better tires and suspension components (not strut tower bars, they don't do much either)

I'm just trying to do people a favor and save them some money.

I'm just trying to do people a favor and save them some money.[/quote]

Well then, how about THIS..... I do not care about any MORE horsepower because the engine has enough for me and I can go as fast as I want on the freeways and do not care about pin-your-butt-to-the-seat accelleration on this Honda.....I just want BETTER (Better I tell you, BETTER!!) gas mileage. I opened the exhaust a little but still kept it somewhat restrictive and got worse gas mileage. Now if I open the intake to breathe a little better (such as CAI) will this help the gas mileage???

Or shall I just get rid of it and go for a CRV (SUV + fairly better gas mileage). Or if I REALLY want better gas mileage, get a Civic or Civic Hybrid, but then again, I do not want to drive around a beer can!!

Ger

...mmm ...the CAI discussion....again on another board..how unusual....well I will start with: TO EACH THEIR OWN.....I have gotten better gas milage in all my cars since I installed the CAI, I like the way the car performs with it on and that's it.....I don't have to convince anyone or have anyone convince me otherwise...end of story.... :wink:

I would skip the CAI all together. I realize they are a popular mod and people like them, but they don't add any power worth mentioning, like most riceboy mods.[/quote:ff218cc205] Huh? What science is backing up this assertion? :shock:

[quote]With a small naturally aspirated engine like this, a turbo or supercharger or genuine modifications like intake manifold *combined* with new heads, cams, fuel systems etc. are the path to real power.

If you don't mind being parted with your money and you judge by the seat of the pants rather than actual science, then be my guest.

Adding the CAI and a free-flowing catback exhaust system is not "weird science" or "riceboy." These are mods that free up existing power by eliminating restrictions in the intake and exhaust. That is science my friend. Now, does it add 120 hp? Um, was that ever the goal? NO!!! On a small, n/a mill, every little step towards maximum efficiency is helpful.

Step back from staring at the "supercharger or genuine modifactions" forest and look at the little trees that can change everyday driving satisfaction on a versatile platform. I didn't make the changes to go fast; if I wanted to go fast, I would've kept the Si. I made the changes because the set up on the stock Element is the best compromise for Honda to put out and cover driving in all 50 states. My mods may not be the best thing for an E in Vancouver, but they sure help in melt-your-hair-gel hot Dallas.

That's the best thing about aftermarket mods - they are up to the individual's taste and talents. If you don't think they help, don't put 'em on yours. But, if you haven't put some miles on an E with this set up, then you really can't speak from experience, eh? :roll:

Even high performance cars do not come with them, that should tell you something.

Ever checked out the fresh air intake on a top of the line T/A or SS Z28? CAI's from the factory.

CAI's do very little for performance. That is the truth. Anybody who knows anything about performance will tell you that.
And that is an opinion, not THE truth. I know lots about performance all the way from the cars of the '60's to today. All through these years, special edition, top of the line performers came with fresh air set-ups. The advantage of ambient air direct to the mill is well known. Why not on every car? Do you see the idiots on the road everyday, driving up medians and through drainage culverts? If any of these idiot's cars sucked up water, who do you think they would sue? Themselves? The run of the mill car has to be built to be as idiot proof as possible to protect the manufacturer, unfortunately.

If you want an inexpensive mod that will give you a real measureable effect, a thicker rear anti-sway bar is the best way to spend that $170. It will noticeably improve your handling.

I agree with the a/s bar idea, as long as you work both ends to get a proper handling balance. Absolutely!

Don't waste your money on exhaust systems, fart mufflers and CAI's. It's hard to get real gains on an N/A engine,

What do call real gains? On a little engine, even a 5-10 hp gain is very noticeable and useful in traffic. Geez, lighten up!


If you want to improve performance but don't have $1000's to spend, put money into better tires and suspension components

I agree, but if your mill doesn't have the power to push you through the corners, it's sort of a Pyrhic victory at best, huh?

I'm just trying to do people a favor and save them some money.

Magnanimous goal, but a bit misdirected. Not every mod is meant to produce the next challenger to a Z06. Improvements in any vehicle's daily driving tendencies is worthwhile. If you think the E is best box stock, keep it that way and enjoy a truly fun little vehicle. I like the satisfaction of tinkering and modding, knowing full well I'm not producing a 1/4 mile demon - just a personalized and somewhat more drivable vehicle.

To each his or her own - there are no absolutes in this endeavor.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't waste your money on exhaust systems, fart mufflers and CAI's. It's hard to get real gains on an N/A engine,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'ts a well know fact that an engine is like a pump and anything that you can do to make it breath better will increase performance. Gas mileage usually goes up as a side benifit.

One more thing...

Cold air intakes are ironically named. The vast majority of them are taking in air from under the hood, where the air is *warmer*. They're subjected to heat soak from the engine under there, even the ones equipped with the little heat shields.

They should be called warm air and puddle water intakes.

[quote:317b005852="Oak Lawn Element"]

Ever checked out the fresh air intake on a top of the line T/A or SS Z28? CAI's from the factory.[/quote:317b005852]

The key there is "on top". A less restrictive air intake on top of the engine with a direct path to outside air actually does take in some cold air, unlike an air element under the hood taking in the warm air around the engine. These are also a part of an entire OEM designed system that is less restrictive. In that case they probably are good for 10-15 hp, again at high RPM. A high performance large displacement engine, can take advantage of that, especially when the intake is very close to the carburator or intake manifold as in that design.

[quote="Oak Lawn Element"]And that is an opinion, not THE truth. I know lots about performance all the way from the cars of the '60's to today. All through these years, special edition, top of the line performers came with fresh air set-ups. The advantage of ambient air direct to the mill is well known. Why not on every car? Do you see the idiots on the road everyday, driving up medians and through drainage culverts? If any of these idiot's cars sucked up water, who do you think they would sue? Themselves? The run of the mill car has to be built to be as idiot proof as possible to protect the manufacturer, unfortunately.[quote="Oak Lawn Element"]

See above. Those systems are designed properly and even then only offer marginal gains. Strapping a pipe and filter under your hood attached to the existing intake with all of it's OEM piping is not equal. Air is not "rammed" into the intake when the air intake is not in the path of rushing air with a straight line into the intake manifold. You've simply got a less restrictive filter sucking in warm engine bay air. Probably just enough of a gain that it almost shows up in a test.

[quote:317b005852="Oak Lawn Element"]
What do call real gains? On a little engine, even a 5-10 hp gain is very noticeable and useful in traffic. Geez, lighten up![/quote:317b005852]

I should lighten up, you're right. People touting imaginary horsepower gains because of CAI's and engine "tornadoes" is one of my pet peeves for some reason, probably because if you know about these things you realize how futile and silly this sort of thing is.

[quote:317b005852="Oak Lawn Element"]
I agree, but if your mill doesn't have the power to push you through the corners, it's sort of a Pyrhic victory at best, huh?[/quote:317b005852]

Meh... If you aren't happy with the power of your engine stock, no CAI or exhaust system is going to solve that. It's not as if you're going to feel your Element is slow, then strap on a CAI and be like "Oh WOW! That is so much better. problem solved!"

[quote:317b005852="Oak Lawn Element"]Magnanimous goal, but a bit misdirected. Not every mod is meant to produce the next challenger to a Z06. Improvements in any vehicle's daily driving tendencies is worthwhile. If you think the E is best box stock, keep it that way and enjoy a truly fun little vehicle. I like the satisfaction of tinkering and modding, knowing full well I'm not producing a 1/4 mile demon - just a personalized and somewhat more drivable vehicle.

To each his or her own - there are no absolutes in this endeavor.[/quote:317b005852]

Kudos to you for your measured and mature response to my rantings. :)
Tinkering is fun, but these aren't like vehicles from the 60s. Electronic sensors and controls control your engine, small mods like these don't do much and do even less with a smalll, modern 4 cylinder. I can relate to the urge to tinker though. I just think it is unrealistic for people who think their E is not powerful enough to expect any meaningful power increase with these things.

Now..If you have a properly designed intake that takes in cold air directly from the outside, from on top of the hood not under the hood, and it has a path straight to the engine intake and the tubing is designed and shaped, all the way UP to the intake to accelerate the air, not just let it flow through and you have a less restrictive MAF, THEN what you *think* is happening by just strapping on a CAI actually *will* be happening. In that case, I definitely could believe you could get up to 10 hp or so at higher RPM. If such a system exists I might even consider buying it. I haven't seen anything like that yet.

You need a significantly greater volume of cold air to get more power. Cold air and more of it means more oxygen. More air means the engine can inject more fuel, since the air/fuel ratio has to remain constant. More air and more fuel is where more power comes from so a CAI is not going to improve fuel economy.

I definitely beleive in more cold air = more power when it is done realistically. For example, a turbo FORCES more air into the engine, it doesn't just sit there like a CAI. Add an intercooler and the turbo sucks in supercooled air.

A CAI doesn't create any extra suction to force air into the intake, so without an properly shaped tube/path running all the way from the outside up to engine intake that can accelerate the air it isn't going to do what people imagine it is doing.

My final response is that the sensors and controls feed intormation to the on-board computer so that it may maintain operation in preprogrammed parameters. Use ****ty gas in very hot weather with the A/C on and draw in heated underhood air and the whole system shifts to the low end of the parameters to avoid detonation. Hence, power loss due to the 'puter taking care of the mill. Use better gas in very hot weather with the A/C on and use a CAI to draw air in from OUTSIDE of the engine bay and the 'puter is capable of staying higher in the operating parameters.

I still very much remember the '99 Si, sitting in 108 degree stop 'n' go traffic in Dallas while still running the stock intake piping (which very much accessed air under the hood). Ease the clutch out and get moving, and I could just feeeel the bog - the "oh crap I want to go but DAMN!" Moving to the CAI that at least accessed the ambient hot air vs. superheated underhood air made a big driveability improvement. I don't know why Honda had this car set up to eat hot air all the time.

I haven't made any HP number claims at all, and never will. What I do claim is that when you do multiple small things to improve engine efficiency, they add up. I never went into modding the E, or either Si for that matter, with the idea that I was going to "add" any HP or increase the mpg. My goal is to give the mill the best chance of using the HP that is there by at least freeing up the access to air and the expulsion of air. On ANY internal combustion engine, when these factors are put in place, there is improvement. Again, small increments, but I look at it as anything is waaaay better than nothing. :wink:

And, kudos back to you for civilized responses - either one of us just might learn something from the other! :)

Some good information Hedgeborn and I agree, change some internal bits and you CAN get some serious HP gains but I wanted to point out that for under $200 a CAI has a characteristic power "hump" between 3000-4500 that equates to 10+HP in an E, it is lower in the RPM range that a CAI increases HP not at the upper RPM limits... for me that is exactly where I want the HP gain in my E, I don't like having to rev the heck out of an engine to get power but prefer to roll it on at lower RPM...

I'm waiting for the KN Typhoon in hopes that it will work with the stock fog lights I already have installed. Also, the KN appears to have solved the rain issue by providing a "sock" that is made specifically for rain weather use (with the sock it can still provide more air then the engine can breathe). I have not heard anything bad with the Injen unit other then the lack of a sock and the fog light issue...

Seems like a CAI and a free flow exhaust and you are on your way to 180-190HP, decent for under $500.