I have been having trouble with the fuel for the Snow blower, and the Mowers. The ethanol Settles out to the bottom of the tank. It then proceeds to Destroy the engine when the engine is started and run.
The chain saw shop is filled with broken rings and burned pistons this year. He is attributing it to the 10% mix separating out.

This all started last spring, with the loss of the Lawnmower engine.
Then this fall with the snow blower starting hard. I drained all the fuel in the tank, and started with fresh gas. so I did not loose that engine.

Any engine that is stored for 2 to 3 weeks Will have Fuel separation.

The boys at the snow sled shop have been talking about K100 for the past year. They call it a FIX for the new gas.

We have been seeing it in the outboard engines as well.

Now I am am told by the People at the outboard repair shop that using K100 will solve the storage issues.

Well we found something that works! I thought I would pass this along for everyone with similar troubles.

So I took some pump gas and put it into 2 quart bottles. One I added K100 to as per the instructions. The fuel came from the same gas station, and same 5 Gal Jerry Jug, Just so you know.

The untreated quart showed the separation after 2 weeks. The other quart still has not shown any change after 3 months.

This is the 4 th treatment I have tested using this method. This stuff is the only one to keep the fuel mixed for 3 months, so far.

Link to there sight (http://www.k100fueltreatment.com/main.html).

I hope this helps someone out.

Dom

Well, it helped me out, Dom! Thanks!

This sure as heck explains the problems I was having last summer with the lawnmower. I rebuilt the carburetor twice and it always ran right after... and that's now obviously because in the process I drained the gas out of the tank and put fresh (or freshly-agitated) fuel in.

Question I have is... why is this problem not killing cars? Is it because small engines are gravity feed and the pump pickup in a motor vehicle isn't drawing from the absolute bottom of the tank?

Mike I think it's do to the fact that cars are used more frequently. They therefor Keep the fuel well agitated/mixed. I'm no expert in the reason, It's just a guess.

I know in 2 stroke engines, the oil precipitates out with the alcohol, scoring piston walls, and burning pistons. That's why the chain saws and Outboards are being hit so hard.


Dom

Its happrning in boats and snowmoblies also.


http://morningsentinel.mainetoday.com/sports/stories/5845317.html

Yea, I wonder about my motorcycle. I start it once every 1-2 weeks and let it warm for about 10 minutes. Havent ridden it since October. The gas line is at the bottom of the tank, so you would think it would separate some.

However, I do mix in SeaFoam this time of year. But I am not sure if that even remotely fixes the separation problem.

Thoughts?

We had to get both of my dad's Stihl chainsaws carbs replaced this summer. The guy at the shop said he sees a lot of them coming in this way because of the ethanol in gas, though he attributed a lot of it to the humidity causing the ethanol to separate out and getting into the carb where it rusts it very quickly.

Interesting stuff, I'll have to give it a try!

Oooooo! I just flashed on my riding mower sitting in the barn since October. Crap. I hope I didn't top it off like I usually do since that means draining 3 gallons. *&^%$#%^&*! :mad:

Yea, see thats the issue with my motorcycle. Everything I read say to winterize you either drain everything OR you fill it to the brim and add a stablizer like SeaFoam (the route I go).

But Im not sure a stablizer actually would prevent the separation. SeaFoam does reduce and kill out water, and helps clean the carbs. Maybe it just helps fix the problem but doesnt prevent.

Now I am wondering.

Oooooo! I just flashed on my riding mower sitting in the barn since October. Crap. I hope I didn't top it off like I usually do since that means draining 3 gallons. *&^%$#%^&*! :mad:

Oooooo! I just flashed on my riding mower sitting in the barn since October. Crap. I hope I didn't top it off like I usually do since that means draining 3 gallons. *&^%$#%^&*! :mad:

My thoughts excatly I guess I should not use what is left in my jerry can?

My thoughts excatly I guess I should not use what is left in my jerry can?

Just shake it first? :confused:

Just shake it first? :confused:


Shake all you want!! Once it has separated, It will not recombine!!!

The best you can do at that point, is pour off the gas and leave the Alcohol and water behind.

I have tried the shake method on the chain saw gas. I shook it for about 40 to 50 seconds, as hard as I could. When I was pouring it into the Saw I could see the color change. I put the remainder into a coffee can. I was then able to see the water in the bottom of the can.

It just will not mix back in.

Dom

If your Gas Stations would keep the Water out of the bottom of their tanks your gas would last a LOT longer before it had a seperation issue.

Once the Ethanol in the gas mixture picks up a certain amount of water it will seperate. You gas should be delivered to you DRY so it can pick up a bit of water in your tank and not have this issue.

Always a problem with Ethanol / Gas mixtures.

If your Gas Stations would keep the Water out of the bottom of their tanks your gas would last a LOT longer before it had a seperation issue.

Once the Ethanol in the gas mixture picks up a certain amount of water it will seperate. You gas should be delivered to you DRY so it can pick up a bit of water in your tank and not have this issue.

Always a problem with Ethanol / Gas mixtures.


The thread is about stored Engines. I don't care how good it was on day one! What we are talking about, If you read the first post is how long it lasts Sitting in my Snow blowers, or lawn mowers tank over the winter/summer. What it does when it just sits in the tank, or Jerry Jug, for more than 2 or 3 weeks.

Dom

Thanks for the info, Dom. I've got my fingers crossed that the fuel stabilizer I put in my scooter's tank in December will prevent this problem.

Thanks for the info, Dom. I've got my fingers crossed that the fuel stabilizer I put in my scooter's tank in December will prevent this problem.


Paul what Brand did you use? I tested 4 brands. one was Sea foam, one was STP. I can't remember the other 2 now, but I have the containers out in the shed. ( It's snowed in )

Dom

Oh... @#$%...

Look, I know that economically, the ethanol in this country is a scam because of the amount of energy put into making one gallon of ethanol is more than a gallon, a net loss of fuel.

Which is more likely a possibility?

The ethanol was made not only to jack up the price (because the gas mileage isn't as good), but to damage your engine so that you would be spending more money at the shops for repairs?

or

This is an example of technology getting ahead of materials science, like the Titanic (possibly a case of metal with impurities going brittle in subfreezing temperatures), the Apollo fire (using flammable materials in a pure oxygen environment), exposing yourself to mercury while refining gold in the old days, etc.?

Stephanie

will fuel line cleaners work?

will fuel line cleaners work?


No ! They do nothing to help recombine the Alcohol with the Gas. They do nothing to stop the corrosive effects of methanol on internal engine parts and seals. They will not clean the corrosion ( aluminum oxide ) out of the carburetor.

The best we can hope for, is to stop the separation from occurring in the first place. That's not true!! The best we can hope for, is for them to stop putting it in our gas in the first place!! But that ain't gonna happen!


I was trying to remember the other brands that I tested. I think one of them was whites, or whitings, or something like that. Maybe it was Winn's. Oh crap I cant remember. I'll have to go look.

Dom

So why not just don't buy the 10% ethanol stuff. Or is that not a choice where you live? Here, the cheaper gas (Speedway, JoeSchmoes, ect) has ethanol. BP, Mobil, ect, do not.

So why not just don't buy the 10% ethanol stuff. Or is that not a choice where you live? Here, the cheaper gas (Speedway, JoeSchmoes, ect) has ethanol. BP, Mobil, ect, do not.


There is no gas Without it in the northeast!

We no longer have that option. The Mass Bay boating assn (http://www.mbyca.org/). has been trying to get " Just plain gas " for the boating community, Sighting Safety. The government Is not moving on this one.


Dom

So why not just don't buy the 10% ethanol stuff. Or is that not a choice where you live? Here, the cheaper gas (Speedway, JoeSchmoes, ect) has ethanol. BP, Mobil, ect, do not.
Dom is absolutely right. E10 is mandated in nearly all major metro areas, and even if you're in a rural area (like we are) you frequently still have no choice because the local stations rely on the distribution chain serving the big city. I have to go 100+ miles to find E0, and even that's not dependable since the delivery truck driver may slip E10 into the tank anyway. :mad:

Shake all you want!! Once it has separated, It will not recombine!!!


Dom

I do have a brush pile that need burned. :rolleyes:

Paul what Brand did you use?
Sta-Bil.http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/spacer10.gif

We no longer have that option. The Mass Bay boating assn (http://www.mbyca.org/). has been trying to get " Just plain gas " for the boating community, Sighting Safety. The government Is not moving on this one.


Dom

That's too bad - at one of our local marinas in Honolulu we can purchase E0. Not sure if you have to actually 'boat over' or if you can use gas cans.

Most marinas in the US have a standing "No gas cans" policy. I've seen it in place at every marina I've been to (Around 75-80, My Pa's a boating fanatic)
That doesn't stop people from trying to get away with it, but the expulsion from the marina and confiscation of said boat have happened at quit a few.
I seem to remember it starting around mid 80's.

BTW - Sta-Bil is what my dad uses on the boat for winter storage. He's recommended it to more people than I can count (boaters, they always wanna share their secrets) We've also never had any problems, fuel wise with the boat.

Most marinas in the US have a standing "No gas cans" policy. I've seen it in place at every marina I've been to (Around 75-80, My Pa's a boating fanatic)
That doesn't stop people from trying to get away with it, but the expulsion from the marina and confiscation of said boat have happened at quit a few.
I seem to remember it starting around mid 80's.

BTW - Sta-Bil is what my dad uses on the boat for winter storage. He's recommended it to more people than I can count (boaters, they always wanna share their secrets) We've also never had any problems, fuel wise with the boat.


Yes Sta-Bil is what we have been using for years in our boats.

It works like a charm, to prevent varnish build up, and keeps the gas from going stale. It does nothing to stop the trouble with the alcohol from precipitating out of the mix. However, it contains Alcohol to help absorb the water, ( Dry Gas ). We now understand that that's precisely the wrong thing to do to our already 10% mix. It only compounds the existing problem.

There are still some old timers, that cant be convinced, that we need to change to something, other than what we have been doing for years.
When there customers come in with scored piston walls, They tell them the oil mix was wrong. In essence they are correct. When the alcohol separates out, The oil floats on top of it. An outboard, chain saw, well any 2 stroke engine will run fine on alcohol. It just won't have any lubrication. Thus causing the damage.

That's the primary reason for many of the marina's in this area going to the K100. It does what the Sta-Bil did, with the added benefit of helping keep the methanol dissolved in solution.

Did I explain that properly Mike ?


Dom

You know a lot more than I do about this in practice, Dom. I'm still trying to get over your finding that the ethanol separates out as quickly as it does. Water I can understand (specific gravity of 1.0), but the s.g. of common gasoline is ~0.75 and ethanol is 0.79, which isn't enough of a difference to de-emulsify without assistance. Water binding to the alcohol certainly will raise the s.g., but enough to separate from gravity alone? Wow.

Maybe I need to make some phone calls. Since I work for a DOT, it might not be totally, completely out of line for me to call our fuels division and ask one of the chemists what in the heck is going on.

That is a bummer that you can't get E0 for special purposes. The safety factor alone carries the argument.

In the bigger picture though, ethanol does seem to answer more of our energy issues than any other option... that is unless you are big oil.

My buddy turned me onto this site:

http://www.permaculture.com/book_menu/360/518

I was unaware it was only a varnish preventative... Looks like once I get a bike, I'll be emptying the tank for the winter.

In the bigger picture though, ethanol does seem to answer more of our energy issues than any other option... that is unless you are big oil.

My buddy turned me onto this site:

http://www.permaculture.com/book_menu/360/518


The way Brazil does it with sugarcane is a much better way to make the alcohol than the current corn-based method being used in the US, MUCH better. That's why I said that the ethanol was a scam (should have specified corn-based method in the US). Brazil has been making this stuff for quite some time now with great success.

Stephanie

I just was informed this week by a co worker it is better now to run the stored engines dry of gas to prevent this from happening. They had this happen to generators

That's not always practical. Plus if there is water in the carb It get destroyed when it freezes. That can also lead to the seals becoming dry and cracked.

Dom

http://www.answers.com/main/images/close.gif

I wonder if the same issue is present with diesel fuel?

I wonder if the same issue is present with diesel fuel?

Diesel fuel does not contain any Methanol. SO there is none to settle out.

It does have it's own problems though. It also absorbs water from the air. It will also grow microbes. They tend to leave a thick sticky black sludge. That sludge will clog injectors, clog fuel filters, and bind fuel pumps. You have to use an antibiotic treatment in boats. In cars/trucks they use Poison! That is not allowed for marine use. Do to the potential for negative environmental impact, if the boat sinks, or the tank leaks.

I have run into it in my boat. It took me several days to clean it all out. It's not as easy in the boat as it is in the car. A car holds 12 to 25 gal of fuel depending on the make. The boat holds 200+ gal. It all has to come out to clean the tanks.

That now gets treated With Every fueling!

Dom

here we have a label at the gas station / pump that gasoline MAY contain 5 or 10% ethanol..... but doesnt specifiy which grade has or has not.

Diesel fuel does not contain any Methanol. SO there is none to settle out.

It does have it's own problems though. It also absorbs water from the air. It will also grow microbes. They tend to leave a thick sticky black sludge. That sludge will clog injectors, clog fuel filters, and bind fuel pumps. You have to use an antibiotic treatment in boats. In cars/trucks they use Poison! That is not allowed for marine use. Do to the potential for negative environmental impact, if the boat sinks, or the tank leaks.

Dang, I got a newer diesel tractor last spring. I've all the maintenance but did not think to add anything to the fuel... does anyone know if I should have? Is there anything I should do now that winter is 1/2 (yes, only 1/2) over? Microbe killer or something? Also, I usually top off when it is 1/2 full... maybe I should run this fuel out in spring?

Go to a truck stop and get a gallon of Diesel fuel conditioner! Just follow the instructions on the package.

Then Change the Fuel filter in the spring. That's what I do. I also add some K100 to the tanks, just to be safe.

Dom

Thanks man.

Is this problem limited to 2 stroke engines, ones where you premix lubricating oil with the gasoline? May be alcohol is causing the oil to separate or break down. Remember, we've been adding methanol (HEET) to car gas tanks for years with the purpose of reducing fuel line freezing. If I'm not mistaken it works because alcohol is miscible with both gasoline and water. I suspect ethanol would work just as well as methoanol for this purpose.

While I still buy HEET (or the generic equivalent) for using in my camping stove, I haven't used much in the Element. With sealed gas caps and vapor recapture, less water vapor gets into the gas system.

As a side note, I learned from the Ice Roads TV series, that methanol (methyl hydrate in Canadian stores) is used in abundance in truck air brake lines to prevent ice blockages.

Just saw yesterday that Sta-Bil now has an ethanol-specific treatment. Anybody have any idea what's up with it and if it would be safe to mix with 2-cycle mix?

Thanks for the update, I am guessing SeaFoam will/should be following suit as well.

Guess I got to watch that since I like SeaFoam better than Sta-Bil for my bike.

Just saw yesterday that Sta-Bil now has an ethanol-specific treatment. Anybody have any idea what's up with it and if it would be safe to mix with 2-cycle mix?