I am having some issues with the Element we just purchased. It is a 2006 with an Ecamper modification. The original owner changed out the rims and tires and put on 15x6 rims and LT235/75R-15CL BFG A/T Baja Champion tires (see pics). When driving back from San Diego to the central coast (6 hours) the back wheels would hit the undercarriage when we would drive over big dips in the road (happened about 3 times). I am pretty sure this only happens when going above 50 mph. It would make a pretty loud noise and I felt the plastic undercarriage part and you can tell it is kind of shredded (i also tried to capture this in the pics). I also noticed we were getting horrible MPG (I am talking about 14 MPG). We were driving at about 70 to 80 MPH and we also had a big Yakima rack with 4 KC Lights up top which I am pretty sure were creating drag.

Questions - Is it ok for the tires to hit the undercarriage at times? If not, what would be my best option? Stiffer shocks? Lift? I dont want to change the tires out.

How the hell am I getting such horrible MPG? I know driving around 55-60 mph helps, but only getting 14 mpg is bad!!!!


HELP!!!

Questions - Is it ok for the tires to hit the undercarriage at times?
No.

If not, what would be my best option?
Get different wheels with more positive offset.

How the hell am I getting such horrible MPG?
The tires could possibly have a smaller diameter and more rolling resistance than some with a less toothier tread and the stuff on the roof I'm sure makes it more wind resistant.

well i can't help you out with your situation - but i just wanted to say i am super jealous of your e! that has always been my favorite element. i have the rallye red e too but not with all those camping modifications!! awesome element!

what were your tire pressures at?

Put the top down on the highway for better mpg. :wink:


That tire is quite a bit taller than stock.

Don't forget, the taller tires will make the speedo & odometer read slower/shorter than you are really traveling.

For a rough guess, if it reads 65 you're prolly rolling along at 68mph. If it says 70, your real speed is prolly closer to 75.
For distance, when it says you've traveled 200 miles i'd guess it closer to 205 or even 210 miles.

Check your speedo and odo with a GPS or the mile markes on the highway. Come up with a percentage it is "off" and then add that percentage into the equation when figuring mpg.

Combine the speedo error, with wind resistance increase at higer speeds, and all the stuff on yer roof, and you've got a recipe for crappy fuel economy.


The tire rubbing ain't good, but you'll need different tires or a lift to avoid it. Do a search for "rolling the fenders," if you don't mind being a little creative.


Good luck. Enjoy that thing.

Will

you probably wont wear those tires for a while but dropping down to a 70 sidewall will help.

My tire press was at 30, just increased to 45 on all, hopefully that helps. I'm just gonna put some smaller tires on, it sucks, but I think that's the cheapest and best route. A friend had mentioned to look into air bags to lift it, anyone ever used these?

The position of the tire in the wheelwell of the top picture appears about normal. Is that unloaded? (the wheel center is a bit below the fender opening center)

Unloaded I have about 3" between top of the tire and fender rim (4 fingers). That's with tires that are 2% larger than stock. With a full load camping gear, that clearance drops by an inch. I've never had any bumps or rubbing - though I have hit the subframe (between the wheels) a few times on rocks or bumps on rough tracks.

Few owners who have move to more knobier tires have reported rubbing in the rear. 235/70/16 or 225/75/16 are the normal maximums. But BFG TA KOs are available in the stock size, so you don't have to get a larger tire.

Owners who have lowered their element, and switched to larger wheels and low profile tires have reported rubbing problems on the fender opening. I believe some have rolled or trimmed it to reduce this problem.

I'd have to double check the calculations, but I think 235/75/15 tires have about the same diameter as 235/70/16s. 225/75/16 are a bit taller, but also narrower, so they clear the strut towers in front.

Rolling the fender, I wanna try this out, do any reputable places do this, or is it always a custom thing.?

What's the offset of your wheels? For the stock ones it is 45mm

offset? Not familiar

How could you roll a plastic fender?

I think you would have to cut it. IMO it would be better to go back to stock wheels or at least something with the correct offset (the distance between the centerline of the wheel and the plane of the hub-mounting surface of the wheel).

offset is explained in this Tirerack technote
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=101

Your wheels, if I remember correctly are, 15" diameter; 6" width
stock wheels are 16" diameter, 6 1/2" width, 45 mm offset

There's been a lot of talk about the appropriate offset when using larger wheels. There hasn't been much talk about the appropriate values for 15" wheels. I'm not sure if it matters or not. You probably want the same as stock, especially since the tires are only 235.

The reason why I ask is that if the tires stick out further than stock, the may be a greater chance that the tread will hit the fender rim.

However I just checked my Element. The edge of the rear tire tread is directly under the plastic rivets on the fender rim. So if there was enough depression of the suspension, the tread would rub on the rim. I am ignoring the possibility that the top of the tire could tilt in as it rises (due to rotation, or camber, in the suspension).

Here's something you might try. Put a front tire up on a curb. The opposite rear tire should get closer to the fender. Better yet, try this with a full camping load. That may give you a better idea of how the suspension moves when you hit a bump.

the wheels I believe are 15x6 with a et of 0mm as in zero. so, with a smaller wheel width, it puts them about 1 inch out from stock... right?

In that case, i see how it could rub when loaded

the wheels I believe are 15x6 with a et of 0mm as in zero. so, with a smaller wheel width, it puts them about 1 inch out from stock... right?

In that case, i see how it could rub when loaded

Yep, that was my guess:
Get different wheels with more positive offset.

Ahartig- If you want to keep those tires you will need to look for wheels that have at least a 40mm positive offset. This would pull the wheel in from the fender lip (which is where I think they are making contact).

If the problem with rubbing is being caused by combined weight of the ECamper™ and stuff being carried in the E is the solution different rims and tires?
I wonder why the original owner tried smaller rims in the first place? Possibly because of rubbing? It would be interesting to talk to other ECamper™ owners. Maybe its a problem they all experience. When the ECamper™ mod is installed is the suspension lifted or beefed up in anyway to compensate for the additional weight?

I just went to their site and the mod adds 130 lbs. Guess thats not really that much weight. In regards to mpg their site claims they got 23 mpg with demo fleet.

As for MPG, if that was loaded with cargo, on bigger/knobbier tires doing 70/80 which is probably more like 75/85, yeah I could see the MPG go down. I've only got 1 tank of fule in since i swtiched from doing 75 to 65 so far but I've seen my milage go from 18 to 21.7 mpg and mine's an 08 with the 5 speed auto instead of the old 4 speed.

OK, so I think I know what I am going to do. I like the tires and the wheels. I am going to get the car lifted using the technique Spaarman outlined in this forum. That will most likely take care of the rubbing and bottoming out and also give 2-3 more inches of clearance for backroad driving. I may change the wheels out also, problem is I only have $1,000 to work with and I def cannot do that lift on my own.......

FWIW....

the lift won't help your mpg. It might even make it a tad worse.

At least the tires won't rub, and your E will look pretty cool. :)

I went to a local guy who does custom rides and we spent about an hour weighing my options. He is going to "roll the fenders" for the back tires. He suggested to not lift it as there is no Professional "Engineered" kit out there for that purpose.

I would roll the fenders like mentioned earlier. You can rent fender rollers. You roll the metal fender and trim the plastic. I have seen others that have lowered (i.e. Darth Raider, Abulan, Dance) that have done this. The best I've seen is when you leave the first clip on each side of the wheel well to help keep the fender in position.

I went to a local guy who does custom rides and we spent about an hour weighing my options. He is going to "roll the fenders" for the back tires. He suggested to not lift it as there is no Professional "Engineered" kit out there for that purpose.

Good advice.

My tire press was at 30, just increased to 45 on all, hopefully that helps. I'm just gonna put some smaller tires on, it sucks, but I think that's the cheapest and best route. A friend had mentioned to look into air bags to lift it, anyone ever used these?

Used to use them on various small/medium trucks. They're fine if you have the room but I don't know how you'd fit anything on an E suspension. There just isn't room for it.

Rolling the fender, I wanna try this out, do any reputable places do this, or is it always a custom thing.?

You can't roll plastic fenders can you?

like bassplayer said... you roll the metal fenders behind the plastic ones and just trim the plastic..

Evenutally I really wnat to lift my element, the 7" clearance under the car is no bueno if its taken out in the backcountry. I PMes Sparman for a lift kit as my local Tire Pros said they could do it I broguht the parts in. Anyone know if he has actually made these kits?

How the hell am I getting such horrible MPG? I know driving around 55-60 mph helps, but only getting 14 mpg is bad!!!!


HELP!!!

The weight/profile of the camper conversion is the prime reason. Second, all that rubber you're pulling around isn't helping. When I went to 285/75 BFGs, 20mpg was about all I could hope for, 19 was what I came to expect.

So, a local offroad mechanic quoted me that he would be able to lift the element about 2" today for around 350 dollars. This guy is apparently very well known locally and has won numerous prizes and awards for his custom work (or so sais Tire Pros). I am now faced with the dilemma of getting the rear and front fenders rolled for about 500 dollars which would fix my rubbing issues for sure or........... just get my front fenders rolled to take care of the rubbing while turning hard issue (which I would imagine would only be about 200 dollars) and then get the 2" lift which would probably fix the rear rubbing issues.......I really would like an extra few inches for clearance but I am afraid of messing up my element down the road and causing premautre tire/body wear....

Too many choices for an inexperienced tire/suspension dude. Any thoughts?

How would he lift it? The problem you have is too much weight on stock suspension plus larger tires. I'd not want to get rid of those tires if you plan to use it off the pavement at all, so a suspension lift would improve your ride and give you a more capeable rig off road, and with that great camper set up you should definately explore the road less traveled.

I should state for the record that I have little knowledge of lifting an E, (I'm lifiting my X 3" with 33" tires) but if it can be safely done it is a great idea.

In speaking with him it would be a pure 2" suspension lift. Sounds pretty good for 350 bones.

P.S. How do I get a pic of my E on my sig over here
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In speaking with him it would be a pure 2" suspension lift. Sounds pretty good for 350 bones.

P.S. How do I get a pic of my E on my sig over here
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Take a look here : http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb3_user_profile#faq_vb3_signatures_av atars

The info is under Signatures, Avatars and Profile Pictures

Thanks!!!!!

ahartig.. sent you a pm!

It's great to see youthful enthusiasm about Elements ahartig, but it's obvious from your observations to-date, combined with your stated objectives, that you're not making all the cause-and-effect connections yet.

Lets begin with the tire rubbing. My 15" tires are even larger than yours, yet have only rubbed against the rear plastic fender liners when my E was seriously overloaded. It doesn't require rolling the metal fender lips -- you only need cut away an 1/8th inch of the plastic with a carpet knife -- or don't overload your Element -- or ignore it because it should rarely happen and poses no risks. If you have rubbing at the front it should only happen in full-lock turns, and it isn't happening at the outer lip -- it'll be at the rear center rib of the front fender liner. You'll see the marks if you look there.

Adding anything to your Element at this point (like suspension parts to get more lift) would just be compounding the fact that you're overloading its rated carrying capacity already.

While you've already discovered the advantage of increasing fuel mileage by increasing tire pressure (and applying your actual tire size correctly to the equation, thanks ApriliaGuy), every mod to your Element so far has decreased your fuel mileage. The weight and frontal area of your tires, combined with the lift they've achieved have a far larger impact than you apparently realize. Each additional inch of lift you add now is likely to diminish your fuel mileage by another 10% or more! And yes, adding the rack and upright KC lights is subtracting another huge percentage. I assume you realize the camper does nothing to increase economy, and certainly is a part of the overweight thing you have going on.

Don't get me wrong! I really like the way your Element looks, but it's been modified in ways that have pretty much removed any economy it ever had. I would also be very conservative about imagining it as a great vehicle for going very far off road. It does not have a 4WD system that will prevent you from getting stuck with the greatest of ease. There are no manual controls or locking axles, and no ways to change that!

In short, though some people think I'm just a crabby old guy, I'm only trying to make it clear that everything we imagine an Element could be is not always possible. Or, not possible without $$ penalties to be paid. Complaining doesn't change facts. And most people are forced to make choices within some established budget.

Don't forget that I think your E looks sweet. I've probably contemplated too many notions like yours when I was much younger, but common sense obviously has a choke-hold on me now. It's pretty normal for young guys from California to believe nothing is impossible, so please take no personal offense.

It's great to see youthful enthusiasm about Elements ahartig, but it's obvious from your observations to-date, combined with your stated objectives, that you're not making all the cause-and-effect connections yet.

Lets begin with the tire rubbing. My 15" tires are even larger than yours, yet have only rubbed against the rear plastic fender liners when my E was seriously overloaded. It doesn't require rolling the metal fender lips -- you only need cut away an 1/8th inch of the plastic with a carpet knife -- or don't overload your Element -- or ignore it because it should rarely happen and poses no risks. If you have rubbing at the front it should only happen in full-lock turns, and it isn't happening at the outer lip -- it'll be at the rear center rib of the front fender liner. You'll see the marks if you look there.

Adding anything to your Element at this point (like suspension parts to get more lift) would just be compounding the fact that you're overloading its rated carrying capacity already.

While you've already discovered the advantage of increasing fuel mileage by increasing tire pressure (and applying your actual tire size correctly to the equation, thanks ApriliaGuy), every mod to your Element so far has decreased your fuel mileage. The weight and frontal area of your tires, combined with the lift they've achieved have a far larger impact than you apparently realize. Each additional inch of lift you add now is likely to diminish your fuel mileage by another 10% or more! And yes, adding the rack and upright KC lights is subtracting another huge percentage. I assume you realize the camper does nothing to increase economy, and certainly is a part of the overweight thing you have going on.

Don't get me wrong! I really like the way your Element looks, but it's been modified in ways that have pretty much removed any economy it ever had. I would also be very conservative about imagining it as a great vehicle for going very far off road. It does not have a 4WD system that will prevent you from getting stuck with the greatest of ease. There are no manual controls or locking axles, and no ways to change that!

In short, though some people think I'm just a crabby old guy, I'm only trying to make it clear that everything we imagine an Element could be is not always possible. Or, not possible without $$ penalties to be paid. Complaining doesn't change facts. And most people are forced to make choices within some established budget.

Don't forget that I think your E looks sweet. I've probably contemplated too many notions like yours when I was much younger, but common sense obviously has a choke-hold on me now. It's pretty normal for young guys from California to believe nothing is impossible, so please take no personal offense.

Thanks for the response you grumpy old man!!!:D

I fully understand you comments and they are well taken. The E we have is going to be used 90% for weekend camping trips. I realize the E is no jeep or anything in comparison to a jeep, but I feel as well as many users on this forum and people I have spoken with that the tires will benefit us when going off the beaten path and rockier terrain. I do not plan on going rock crawling etc..... let that be known. Yes, in part the tires/wheels also contribute to the overall look and aesthetics an is also part of the reason why I dont just get smaller tires.

The rubbing in the back is due to the offset caused by the wheels. The tires hit when the vehicle is not overloaded (me and my wife) and we go over a significant dip. The fenders need to be rolled or the wheels/tires need to be changed. The front tires rub exactly where you described and on the front plastic sheeth inside the wheel well.

I also realize gas mileage is going to SUCK with the roof rack on, but fortunately I can easily take it off. As of now we are getting about 20 MPG with the rack/lights off (the rack/lights and lower tire pressure on the drive from San Diego to central CA reduce our average MPG by about 6 or 7!!!!).

My point is, we purchased this vehicle not really concerned about economics and MPG knowing it would be our weekend warrior. Our other car is an Acura Integra which gets a respectable 25 MPG.

I will be starting a new thread with before and after pics of the lift and the fender roll. Hopefully it will be helpful to people wanting to modify the E in similar ways.

I appreciate your input and it is well taken. I am pretty sure I will look back on this car and the mods in the future and laugh, but for now I love it and wouldnt change a thing (except for the lift and rolling of course!!)

Cheers.

"The weight/profile of the camper conversion is the prime reason"

- The aerodynamic effect of the camper parts are pretty minimal. I haven't calculated the Cd, but adding 2 inches or so to the vertical profile isn't significant relative to the total frontal area of the E, and it is faired into the windshield line.

- Weight change is minimal with regard to gross vehicle weight. I never noticed a significant mpg increase pre-conversion when I removed the 85# worth of rear seats.

The likely source is the rack. My experience in the E and other cars is that ANY racks on the top, much less a basket & lights, will impact mileage by 3 -5 mpg

Of course, the other unmentioned variable may involve measuring mpg going from SD to Central coast via the stop & go freeways of Los Angeles...

cheers - John