I have been doing some research into buying some recovery tools for my E - if I ever get stuck off roading. I wonder if anyone has heard of any things that work well. First, I heard a Hi Lift jack is essential. I check it out and the lift nose is only 4.5 inches long. The lift point on the E is 6 inches in frrom the curved surface of the composite on the bottom edge. has anyone found out a way around this so that you could change a flat off road and lift yourself out of problems? :shock:

Of the recovery products on this page:

http://www.extremeoutback.com/index.cgi?page=02.htm

only the Black Rat recovery winch appears to be of any use with an Element. But such a winch is not cheap. I think a Hi Lift jack could only be used in its winch capacity, since there is not 'hard place' on the Element to push or press or lift. For winching with the jack you also need chain and assorted webbing. A come-along would be a low cost alternative.

http://www.extremeoutback.com/index.cgi?page=04.htm
Lifting the Element out of a rut would be difficult. An air jack might work with an Element, but I have not seen any US source.

Some sort of traction mat would be easy to carry. I have a set of Lion's Grip mats (http://www.lionsgrip.com/), but have not had a chance to try them. Snow chains (cables actually) could also help you get through mud.

A couple of years ago I got stuck in a late season snow drift in my RAV4, with the snow supporting 3 of the wheels. As I tried to dig myself out, I wished I'd brought along a small shovel. Fortunately a raised pickup came by, and was able to pull me out - using MY tow strap.

Don't forget the tire pump, and possibly the tire repair kit, especially if you only have the temporary size spare.

paulj

Paul has made a very good response. I addition the latest 4Wheel & Off-Road magazine (Peterson Publishing) has a good section on recovery priciples [starting on pg. 90]. In response to the Hi-Lift Jack, This are really best utilized on lifted 4x4's to which a normal jack does little to no good lifting. But... There apperantly a new version of the jack that hooks around your wheel to lift the vehicle. The Jury is still out on this newer version.
Joe Bohannon

I haven't seen a version of the jack that hooks around the wheel. I have seen adapters that allow the jack to hook on to the wheel hub of certain models, specifically Landrovers. The theory is that on cars with very long wheel travel, you have to lift the body insanely high to get the wheel off the ground, so it is better to lift the wheel itself. There are also adapters to work with curved bumpers and custom lift points, none of which would be of value with the Element.

Jacks like this used to be common, referred to as bumper jacks. But when chrome plated steel bumpers gave way to 5mph crash proof bumpers, such jacks became useless on most cars.

I bought such a jack years ago when preparing for a trip to Alaska. I even worked out a good storage method in the bed of my pickup, but neglected to buy any chains or adapters that would have let me use it. Fortunately I did not need it. I do, though, recall my dad using one to pry a pickup away from an embankment (in a situation similar to Coastline's recent adventure).

The difficulty with reading most extraction articles is distinguishing between methods that work with soft roaders like the Element, and methods that only work with steel bumpers and body-on-frame vehicles. That video clip of kids trying to drag a Civic through a snow bank by its bumper is a good reminder of the damage you can do if you're not careful.

Extraction tactics article (http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techarticles/29601/)

paulj

tow strap (a must).
traction mats (carpet floor mats work well enough on snow or sand).
air compressor (for after the beach riding with reduced air in tires).
folding compact shovel (for snow or mud).
tire chains/tire cables for front wheels (on snow/ice).
an element "modified" high lift jack (hooks around your wheel) is a nice luxury.
for E owners "pushing the limit" taller tires and a full size spare tire mounted on the roof (would decrease gas milage)

I am almost ashamed to say I took my first serious look at the jacking points. They are comparatively accessible, only 7 inches in from the side of the Element, and 11 inches off the ground, close to the wheelwell. Using them with a HiLift jack and some sort of adapter might not be out of the question. I would still be concerned with possible damage to the door panels. I also do not know how they would stand up to any lateral force.

What I need to do next is get out the Element's jack and test its range of motion. And also look for some wood or plastic blocks that could be used under the jack when on soft ground.

paulj

I just found that Lift Mate that allows you to lift any wheel with the Hi Lift jack. It uses webbing and hooks to grab the wheel. Hopefully it would work with the smaller holes of the DX rims. Reasonable price.

http://www.hi-lift.com/lm-100.htm

That only leaves the question of where to store the 4' long, 35 lb jack - is Empire's Loadwarrior the only option?

paulj

Thanks for the comments. I really appreciate it. I talked to a off road store guy today and he said no to the Hi Lift. The lift nose in 4.5 inches long. The lift points of the E are about 7 inches in. The tire accessory might work but he suggested I just use the regular jack and get a one foot piece of 6x12 and use that as a base off road. I am going to get a tow strap (18,000 lbs. rated and some light duty shackles ( one for my tow hook that is built into the rear of my E and one for the other lucky guy who gets to tow me out!! Ha!!! I also am going to get the Lion grip mats, carry a shovel and luck! I think I'll hold off on the air compressor until I plan a beach trip. A found a good compressor at offroadrecovery.com. It is the Aviar 200p. It was the best price. Would you recommend getting this prior to a trip to Southern Utah? I figure that I wont lower air pressure in tires until I am doing some serious sand. Any opinions?
Thanks,
Steve

The air compressor certainly helps if you want to air down for soft surfaces, but it may be of even greater value if you get a flat. At least if it is a slow leak you have the option of pumping up the tire until you can get to a shop. On rough roads it may be better to run on that tire than to use the temporary spare. There is also the possiblity of plugging the puncture (either with an inexpensive kit or a $40 Safety Seal). These may not be recomended for permanent repairs, but off-road reviews imply they may one of the better options for getting you back to civilization. The pump also allows to you keep close tabs on your tire pressures, thus reducing the chances of problems.

Then there is the question of how much you want to spend on a pump. For topping off, most any pump will work. filling a tire from nothing will take alot of patience with an inexpensive pump, as will raising all 4 from 15 psi to 35 psi. That is where the $200+ pumps become attractive, though people also use those pumps to operate air tools for serious road side repairs. Cheap ones can also break - though in my experience it is the nozzle that is the weakest point, and the easiest to replace or repair. Beware of pumps that claim fast fill rates and only provide a lighter type power connection. Fast pumping means high current draw, which may be too much for the in-car power circuit. I did blow a fusable link in the power socket of my RAV while topping off my Element's temporary spare (I was able to switch to the Element and complete the job). the higher the pressure the higher the current draw.

paulj

Thanks, Paul!
You have a good point. I will go ahead and get the Avair 200P and the Safety Seal. My thinking is that if I do get a flat, even on the highway, I can plug it and go and not have to use the fake spare. I go on long 1,000 mile trips and would rather plug the tire than be forced to buy a new tire at an inflated price (no pun intended). By the way is there a tire you would recommend for light 4wd and good road that isnt too noisy? I will use my new factory tires for about a year and then replace.
Steve

To be honest I haven't bought a 'serious' air compressor yet, but the Viair 200 is perhaps the most attractive in the category. It looks a lot like the Ezair in this fourwheeler article:

air compressor comparison article (http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/62758/)

Here's a Quickair product description that gives some idea of the air flow rate and current draw:
Quick air current draw (http://www.4wheelparts.com/product2.asp?imseqn=41&occlass=QUIC&cat=ACC)

Here's a Viair 100 that I marked last time I browsed this category:
http://www.tellico4x4.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_offroad/105

I'll write about tires later.

paulj

Given the rate at which the stock tires are wearing I probably will replace them in the next year as well. I'll keep an eye on what others experience. But since I still will be doing most of my driving on highways (in the Pacific NW) I'll probably give priority to treadlife and wet traction. The two most promising lines are the Cooper/Mastercraft OEM replacements, and Geolanders in the stock size.

I put Mastercraft Courser HTR on my RAV4 a couple of years ago (same stock size). Even compared to the new Element's tires the tread on these looks better - more water channels, more siping, squarer shoulders and greater tread width. My ownly qualm is that during this past winter's snow, the Element did better than the RAV, but that may have more to do with overall balance and better split of torque front and rear.

In the stock size there aren't many choices for a more aggressive tread. Tirerack only lists the Bridgestone Dueler A/T. Going up a notch in size gives a couple of more choices in the off-road all terrain category. But unless I start driving backroads with a buddy who could easily pull me out, I won't push the Element to the point where an extra half inch of clearance and deeper tread will make a difference in making it through or not.

It would be a good idea to evaluate the shoulder tread and sidewall quality of a tire used on rough roads. This is the area that could get most damage from rocks. It is also the area where damage will be hardest to patch.

paulj

Further reading on various adapters for the HiLift jack, indicates that the jack normally leans into the vehicle as it lifts it, so the adapter both lifts and pushs horizontally on the bumper or lift point. The wheel adapter has a large rubber pad that presses against the tire. So any adapter for the Element jacking points would have to have a way of pressing inward, either on the jacking points themselves or the structure behind them. Such an adapter is beyond my skills.

I'll wait on the wheel adapter until I see some reviews.

An interesting question on the jack issue, is whether such a tool would have been of use in 'coastlines' Copper Canyon adventure, especially if there had been no one around to tow him out. It would have been difficult to do any lifting on the embankment side of the car. I suspect that when trying to back the trailer away from the wall, he only got the Element closer. Self extraction might have required a hand winch and pull-pal type anchor on the outer edge of the road, nudging the Element forward and away from the wall. That together with trying to shove traction mats under the wheels. I think they took the bike off the trailer early on, but may not have unhooked the trailer until much later.

paulj

Thanks Paul for all the input and research. I bought the Aivair 200P at Off Road Recovery .com http://offroadrecovery.zoovy.com/
They had the best price and return policy, etc. I also got the tire repair kit you recommended. So, now I'm set for pretty much anything (withing the limits of the non-locking differential the E has). I have the following in my kit: Shovel with fiberglass handle, tire repair kit, air compressor that has inline tire guage and plenty of power, a 18,000 lb yank strap and two shackles to connect me and the lucky guy who gets to pull me out!!! I'm really glad you mentioned the part about the tire repair kit. That was the main reason I got the air comp., When out on trips or country byways, I don't want to be 1,000 miles from home and have to hop along on the cheesy spare we are given by our generous mates at Honda. Thanks again!
Steve

One item I forgot. I also bought a set of the lion's grip traction mats.

You mentioned a south Utah trip. I may try to get to that area this fall (my June plans are for central British Columbia, as far as Bella Coola). A possible route, starting from Seattle would be:

fast 2 days through SLC to Moab
a number of years ago I drove Potash trail and Shafer Switchbacks up to Canyon Lands, and Long Canyon back down (very steep start on that one); also drove in the La Sal Mtns.
Then over to Silverton area in Colorado. The Element might handle a back road route between Ouray and Silverton. I'd also like to look at Black Bear Pass near Teluride (but not drive it).
Then south to Durango and west across Utah, including Burr Trail
Then north through Nevada and California, crossing a few passes in the Sierras, visiting relatives in Reno
Then home along the east side of the Cascades.

Most would be paved roads, of course, but it's the few dozens of miles on backroads that leave the memories.

paulj

For some pictures of the big boys getting stuck

http://www.fourwheeler.com/techarticles/128_9702_stck/

one on page 3 showing the use of a stock jack to get unstuck

An Element isn't going to get anywhere most of these situations, still there are some good lessons to be learned.

paulj

From a British Columbia Provincial Parks page (Junction Sheep Range):


Drive with caution. Roads are extremely slippery following rain. Avoid driving on the access road and the road through the park in wet conditions. There is a high probability of accidents, or of becoming stuck.

Carry chains and a shovel, even in summer.

http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/bcparks/explore/parkpgs/junction.htm

I pulled the jack out from under the spare tire.

Its base is 4.5 x 7", the same overall dimensions as the base of the HiLift jack. It is possible, then, that the red plastic base that is sold for the HiLift might work with stock jack. Of course one could also use one or more boards.

The jack extends up to about 18". With the jack points about 11" off the ground (pavement, full tires), that is 7" of lift. I got the front tire about 2" off the ground.

I also pulled my HiLift jack out of storage. It is heavy, about 30lb, and long, more about 50". Carting one around in the Element would not be trivial. Adding enough chain to make it a useful winch could double the weight. There are other attachements I could get, such as the wheel adapter liftmate, and alternative base Jackmate (http://www.expeditionexchange.com/jackmate/). Whether it is worth adding any of this for the Element is still unclear.

paulj

I'm trying to put together a winch system for the Element. Pulling the E up and over boulders is unrealistic, but hopefully something to pull me out of a mudpuddle or off a snow drift won't be too expensive or bulky.

I just picked up a Maasdam 2 ton pow'r-pull (http://www.maasdam.com/catalog/powr-pulls/144SB.html) for a decent price at Home Depot. Compared to other brands of comealongs, the construction on this model looks very nice.

With a 6' pull, I also need a low stretch extension line. A bucket of chain would work, but weighs a lot. Extremeoutback.com has a winch extension strap (http://www.extremeoutback.com/index.cgi?cart_id=9656861.6364&pid=88) that looks like it would work. They assured me in an email that it would be ideal for the job. A little more expensive, and bulkier would be a winch extension cable (http://www.recoverygear.com/winchcables.html)from recoverygear.com. I don't want a nylon strap with much stretch, since that could absorb all the pull of winch without moving the car.

Another strap that looks attractive is the SuperStrap (http://www.superstrap.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=29&osCsid=48f1fe6802a061f32282ee6d60204953) from Redart, The nice thing with this is that it can be attached to the tow loops on the Element without hooks or shackles. I'm not sure if it is low enough stretch to work with the hand winch.

Most recovery articles recomend 3/4" shackles. Given the size of the tow loops on the Element that size might be 'overkill' (though a flying shackle could kill). To have a really good tow point on the back, I should get the class III hitch, which would distribute the pull to two frame members.

I probably should have two straps. In some cases (all?) it may be better to attach the winch near the anchor, rather than directly to the car. There is also the question of what is the most likely thing I could use as an anchor. In may places a tree will be the best choice. Various places sell a ground anchor, a Pull Pal. A few even recomend a boat anchor (Danforth style).

It would be easy to either get a setup that is too bulky, and gets left at home, or one that is inadequate, either too weak, or missing a critical piece. Sometime this summer I should go off on to some side forest road, and actually try to move the Element with my gear.

paulj

I just bought a mini pick-mattock from Home Depot - its 9" long head fits neatly in the larger of the bins by the tailgate. Now I can dig my way out of any trouble :) Well, OK, a small shovel would be better in loose stuff, but it is also more awkward to store, and thus will get left a home most of the time. A plastic backcountry snow scoop also fits in that bin.

paulj

Elsewhere I've written about some backroads travels this past weekend, particularly in the hills between Ellensburg and Yakima (Washington). The surface was mostly dry packed dirt and rocks, with a few snow patches. So ground clearance was more of a concern than traction. However one 'road' did have several puddles, with unknown bottoms. They didn't give me any trouble, since the bottom was not muddy. But in retrospect I really should have tested them, and been a bit better prepared.

I could, for example, have got out, and probed the bottom with a hiking stick, or if I needed greater length, a tarp pole. Rubber boots might also have come in handy. I did get some Tingly overboots last summer in preparation for some coastal Britich Columbia hiking.

I still need to get a long, low stretch webbing strap or two to work with a comealong.

I did use the small pick-mattock I mentioned previously to test the condition of a snow patch, but luckily did not have to dig myself out of anything.

paulj

While browsing a 4wd parts shop I checked the fit of the HiLift jack offroad base, with the stock Honda jack. This fit is perfect. So if you want something a little fancier than a plywood slab, this is a way to go. It extends the jack's base to a square foot, and adds a couple of inches to its lift.

https://www.expeditionexchange.com/hilift/DCP_1121.jpg

get a set of a/t tires

On a car like the Element, I wonder how much difference A/T tires would make. There aren't many choices in sizes that fit, 1 I know of in the stock size, a few more in the 225 and 235 widths. Some have had problems with the blocky shoulder treads rubbing on the strut tower in the 235/70/16 size. So far, I've turned back more often because of ground clearance problems than because of traction problems.

If I were to get tires with a more aggressive tread, it would be all the more important to have recovery tools, since I'd get stuck further away from help :-)

paulj

[quote:9905a902b3="paulj "]...If I were to get tires with a more aggressive tread, it would be all the more important to have recovery tools, since I'd get stuck further away from help :-)

paulj[/quote:9905a902b3]

:!:

This is a lesson I learned from an old off-roader some time ago.
q: What is the difference between 2WD and 4WD?
a: With 4WD you will get stuck further up the track.

I have learned the hard way to always carry recovery tools if I get adventurous.

yeah a good towing cable is good to have too. :wink:

Here's The List Of Things I Carry With Me Whenever I Go Off-road. Iam Now Using My E As A Reconissnace Vehicle For Stage Rally Races.
1. Glock Folding Shovel W/saw On The Handle End.
2. Power Air 20# Co2 Inflation System
3. 1/2" Air Impact Gun W/ Sockets
4. Safety Seal Tire Plugs
5. 4 Ton Come-along
6. Pull-pal Anchor
7. Duct Tape
8. Zip Ties
9. First Aid Kit
Etc..etc... All Small Minor Stuff That Fits In My Gear Bag.

I Have Yet To Get Stranded With The Above Tools And Equip. Also I Carry 2 Spare Wheels And Tires That Fits The E And The Race Car On The Jaos Roof Rack, Along With 5 Gallons Of Extra Fuel.

Could you tell us something about the Jaos rack? Is this a basket mounted on someone else's cross bars (Honda, Yakima or Thule), or does it use its own brackets? I see from their web page (jaosusa.com) that they have some sort of CRV 02+ version, but I can't tell much about the mounting method.

http://www.jaosusa.com/propic/315845.jpg

If you prefer, start a Jaos thread on the hitch and rack section.

paulj

The Jaos rack that I have on my E came off of my old full size Mitsu Montero. It has its own mounting brackets that attaches with the factory roof rack. I did have to trim the bracket a little though because the width of the rack was a little wider on my Montero. One word of warning, It is a little on the spendier side of the spectrum. I think the MSRP for the rack itself is around $1400. But for it's defense, it is the made of aluminum square tubing so it is very light and makes no wind noise. It is truely a "HIGH END" part.