Anyone run lower profile tires on stock rims? [Archive] - Honda Element Owners Club Forum

: Anyone run lower profile tires on stock rims?


Chip
05-06-2004, 11:28 AM
I was thinking of switching from the stock tires to a set of Yokohama Avid V4s @ 235/60/60 to improve handling on the road. I know this will throw off my speedo a bit, but I'd like to have better road handling than stock. Anyone try a 225 or 235 55/60/65 series tires yet? Please let me know your opinions.

rafale
05-06-2004, 12:17 PM
I was thinking along the same lines. I saw on Motorweek that the new Buick Rendezvous comes standard with 235/65R16 tires, which would be perfect for the Element, but no one stocks that size tire in more than one or two types that I don't like. Has anyone seen any decent tires in that size? It would give the width I want without much diameter difference or speedo difference.

paulj
05-06-2004, 01:17 PM
The Toyota RAV4 comes stock with the same size tires as the Element. 235/60/16 is available as a 'sport' option.

paulj

rafale
05-06-2004, 03:39 PM
[quote:2296be83f2=" "]The Toyota RAV4 comes stock with the same size tires as the Element. 235/60/16 is available as a 'sport' option.

paulj[/quote:2296be83f2]

Do you think they calibrate the speedo differently or is the difference within a permissable range?

Silk
05-06-2004, 04:07 PM
For tire related calculation you can visit http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html and use their handy tire utility. Going to a 235/60/16 would result in the speedo reading 2.7% too fast. In other words when the speedo reads 60 mph you are actually traveling 58.4 mph.

Einstein
05-06-2004, 05:59 PM
[quote:bfa4cce22a=" "]For tire related calculation you can visit http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html and use their handy tire utility. Going to a 235/60/16 would result in the speedo reading 2.7% too fast. In other words when the speedo reads 60 mph you are actually traveling 58.4 mph.[/quote:bfa4cce22a]

And Hondas generally run 3 MPH too fast at 60MPH (I've confirmed this on several cars with OEM tires, mile markers, and a stopwatch)

brendan
05-06-2004, 07:17 PM
[quote:2519132ec8=" "]And Hondas generally run 3 MPH too fast at 60MPH (I've confirmed this on several cars with OEM tires, mile markers, and a stopwatch)[/quote:2519132ec8]

Einstein - to clarify: by "run...too fast" you mean the speedometer indicates too fast, not that the car is moving faster than indicated, right?

-brendan

Einstein
05-07-2004, 06:53 AM
The speedometer is reading 3 MPH faster than the vehicle is actually moving.

Einstein
05-07-2004, 06:54 AM
The speedometer is reading 3 MPH faster than the vehicle is actually moving.

Einstein
05-07-2004, 06:56 AM
The speedometer is reading 3 MPH faster than the vehicle is actually moving.

brendan
05-07-2004, 08:13 AM
[quote:d5abbc1f10=" "]The speedometer is reading 3 MPH faster than the vehicle is actually moving.[/quote:d5abbc1f10]

The Einstein is posting 3 posts faster than the EOC is actually moving!

-brendan

LMN_OP
05-07-2004, 09:29 AM
He did "invent" Theory of Relativity, didn't he? :lol:

Empire
05-07-2004, 09:50 AM
I think he posted from the past , present and future.
One post was from 485 BC another was from 6009. :shock:

snowshoe
05-07-2004, 10:42 AM
The Einstein is posting 3 posts faster than the EOC is actually moving!
...or, perhaps, he is trying catch up to your astronomical (and typically insightful) number of posts!!! :wink:

mborkow
05-07-2004, 03:16 PM
automobiles generally have the speedo set 2-5% faster so as to chew through our warranty that much quicker

brendan
05-07-2004, 04:17 PM
[quote:63e626351a=" "]automobiles generally have the speedo set 2-5% faster so as to chew through our warranty that much quicker[/quote:63e626351a]

Wait, it's not just the speedometer, but the odometer as well???

-brendan

LMN_OP
05-07-2004, 04:58 PM
Odomoeter would rack up more than actual miles if speedo reads faster.
That's why I went with 225 width to offset it.
Motorcycle speedos are much worse, especially over 60MPH they are off by 10 or more mph.
I wonder if speedo on E is off proportionately as speed climbs...

brendan
05-07-2004, 06:24 PM
[quote:2054e82a24=" "]Odomoeter would rack up more than actual miles if speedo reads faster.
That's why I went with 225 width to offset it.
Motorcycle speedos are much worse, especially over 60MPH they are off by 10 or more mph.
I wonder if speedo on E is off proportionately as speed climbs...[/quote:2054e82a24]

I don't think that's necessarily the case, but they may do that in practice.

Why? Because the dash display, and the electronics behind, are all digital now.

I can see a certain logic in making the speedometer read slightly liberal in it's speed for owner safety and Honda liability reasons. But that's no reason to be tallying the mileage on the odometer at the same overcompensated rate...that would certainly lead to the possibility of warranty-related suits I would suspect...3% is about 1000 miles of warranty coverage lost , assuming that your warranty ended due to mileage and not time...

-brendan

Einstein
05-08-2004, 06:40 AM
Sorry about the multiple post, I would click "submit" and nothing would happen :roll: :D

LMN_OP
05-08-2004, 09:41 AM
I could be wrong (quite often am :) ) but odometer and speedo work from same source, whether analog or digital. So if speedo is off, odometer would be off by same amount.

brendan
05-08-2004, 03:34 PM
[quote:427dc1248d=" "]I could be wrong (quite often am :) ) but odometer and speedo work from same source, whether analog or digital. So if speedo is off, odometer would be off by same amount.[/quote:427dc1248d]

My point was this: if they intentionally engineered the speedometer to read "high", that doesn't mean they intentionally engineered the odometer to read high.

Let me give an example:

The arm of the speedometer is computer controlled. They could set the software so that instead of requiring 2000 ticks/sec from the speed sensor to read 60mph, it could require only 1900 ticks/sec to read 60mph. Meanwhile, they could still require 2000 ticks to increase the odometer by 1 mile (which is a stored computer value anyway, I don't even think it's stored in the dash per se).

-brendan

PS - You do know there's a dashboard self test mode that does all kinds of cool stuff to the needles, right?

Chip
05-10-2004, 07:45 AM
Wow, did this post get off-track! Back to the original question, anyone here run a set of 235/60/16s on their stock EX rims?

rafale
05-10-2004, 07:50 AM
PS - You do know there's a dashboard self test mode that does all kinds of cool stuff to the needles, right?


No, please tell me more about this neat test.

Personally, I am a bit skeptical about any device being "intentionally" miscalibrated by a company. While the first reaction is to say that they calibrate the speedo to read too high to protect themselves, the implications from that could also injure Honda in a liability case. What if someone claims they were going the speed limit and were rear-ended and it was discovered that as a matter of policy Honda miscalibrated their speedos? The ONLY safe legal course would be to calibrate them accurately, in which case liability would shift entirely to the driver, as Honda need only say that their instruments are accurate.

Einstein
05-10-2004, 11:24 AM
Comon guys, all they have to do is paint the gage marks a little bit counterclockwise, and the speedometer will read a higher speed despite the odometer increasing accurately.

However, a digital speedometer is different. Just Saturday I came across a radar "this is your speed" sign and it read exactly what the digital speedometer in my S2000 was saying.

I guess I never tried checking the calibration of the speedometer in this car... it hardly ever sees the highway long enough to do so...

brendan
05-10-2004, 11:31 AM
[quote:34df2d6be3=" "][quote:34df2d6be3=" "]PS - You do know there's a dashboard self test mode that does all kinds of cool stuff to the needles, right?
[/quote:34df2d6be3]

No, please tell me more about this neat test.[/quote:34df2d6be3]

Place key in ignition.
Press and hold the TRIP/RESET button.
Turn Headlights ON
Turn the ignition switch ON(II) (that's position two, which I think is between ACC (I) and Start (III)?).
Within 5 seconds, turn the headlights OFF, then ON, then OFF again.
Within the next 5 seconds, release the TRIP/RESET button, then press and release the button three times.

Voila! Light and noise show!

Once the sweep tests are done, you can trigger then again by hitting the trip/reset button once.

Turn the ignition key to OFF to leave the test mode.

[quote:34df2d6be3=" "]
Personally, I am a bit skeptical about any device being "intentionally" miscalibrated by a company. While the first reaction is to say that they calibrate the speedo to read too high to protect themselves, the implications from that could also injure Honda in a liability case. What if someone claims they were going the speed limit and were rear-ended and it was discovered that as a matter of policy Honda miscalibrated their speedos? The ONLY safe legal course would be to calibrate them accurately, in which case liability would shift entirely to the driver, as Honda need only say that their instruments are accurate.[/quote:34df2d6be3]

The stretches of highway where there are posted minimum speed limits are few and far between. Granted, a very slow or stopped vehicle in the left lane or on a one lane highway is a hazard, but somehow I doubt that falls into the same category of going 3% under the minimum posted speed.

I believe that, due to engineering tolerances and component wear, they want to protect themselves from higher-speed liability vs. lower-speed liability issues. Makes sense to me.

-brendan

brendan
05-10-2004, 11:37 AM
[quote:7e67e302ce=" "]Comon guys, all they have to do is paint the gage marks a little bit counterclockwise, and the speedometer will read a higher speed despite the odometer increasing accurately.

However, a digital speedometer is different. Just Saturday I came across a radar "this is your speed" sign and it read exactly what the digital speedometer in my S2000 was saying.

I guess I never tried checking the calibration of the speedometer in this car... it hardly ever sees the highway long enough to do so...[/quote:7e67e302ce]

The E's speedometer is digital. The display is via an analog-looking needle, of course, but it's an all electronic unit being fed a digital signal.

Part of the self-test above is the "Communications Line Check", which digitally feeds the dash with coolant temperature and speed signal from the ECM/PCM, according to the service manual. I assume it also feeds the RPM and fuel gauges digitally, but the manual doesn't mention that specifically. The self-test mode sweeps the needles in all of the gauges, so I'm guessing those two are all-digital as well. The odometer mileage is stored in the ECM/PCM too, and just "communicated" to the dash.

-brendan

Silk
05-10-2004, 12:07 PM
LOL! You guys are killing me. I got one thing to say ... the thread title is Anyone run lower profile tires on stock rims? Officer Brown ... hijacking in progress ... suspects are gearheads with obsessive compulsive disorder in auto instrumentation ... :)

rafale
05-10-2004, 12:18 PM
[quote:9f14e991b5=" "]LOL! You guys are killing me. I got one thing to say ... the thread title is Anyone run lower profile tires on stock rims? Officer Brown ... hijacking in progress ... suspects are gearheads with obsessive compulsive disorder in auto instrumentation ... :)[/quote:9f14e991b5]

What else am I supposed to do at work?? :lol:

brendan
05-10-2004, 12:26 PM
[quote:bbbc3c9142=" "]LOL! You guys are killing me. I got one thing to say ... the thread title is Anyone run lower profile tires on stock rims? Officer Brown ... hijacking in progress ... suspects are gearheads with obsessive compulsive disorder in auto instrumentation ... :)[/quote:bbbc3c9142]

Yes, but it wasn't technically a hijacking...just a series of small course corrections...or perhaps a series of small course miscorrections...

-brendan

Chip
06-02-2004, 03:17 PM
Bump


Surely someone out there put some 235/60s on their stock rims...anybody?

calvin13
06-02-2004, 06:15 PM
i put on 225/60's and it ride better and looks good.

hownowcb
06-02-2004, 07:44 PM
There was a REAL answer to the burning question! I suspect the "worst case" issue with oversizing tires on the stock rims would be clearance at the front shock/stut towers due to sidewall bulging.

And Brendan, Detroit has overgeared their speedometers/odometers for decades! I suspect it's had more to do with the liability issue than anything else. That, coupled with the genetic "given" that young guys have the need to peg the needle on a car at least once in their lives. Remember how frustrating that was back when speedo dials quit at 85?

The first car I owned that was anywhere near acurate was German-made. And it matters not if our cars have digital "capture" methods or displays - speedometer/odometer is in lockstep.

I'm only surprised someone hasn't posted about checking their own speedo/odo with GPS. Now that the John Q. Public "fudge factor" has been turned off, there's no better way to do it! My American-made cars were always accurate after I'd upped the tire size, whereas my European-made ones were always accurate off the showroom floor.

I was too lazy to fire up my own GPS for the PA trip, or I could report on this myself. :oops:

Einstein
06-02-2004, 07:54 PM
Update: I drove a "course" in my Element, and then drove the exact same course in my S2000. Both have relatively new stock tires. The Element consistently read 2.33% less odometer miles than the S2000, which has a digital odometer AND speedometer.

paulj
06-02-2004, 08:56 PM
[quote:1026df39ac=" "]
Surely someone out there put some 235/60s on their stock rims...anybody?[/quote:1026df39ac]

Given that 235/70's work, and 235/60 is just a bit smaller than the stock size in diameter, 235/60 should work just fine. 225/60 would push that low profile look a bit further, and may give you access to a greater range of 'performance' models.

paulj

Honu
06-03-2004, 12:33 AM
Yoko Avids are awesome tires on my daughter's Camry.
It is one of the tires I definitely want to consider for the Element.
Please report back if you install the Avids on your element! Fit and performance report would be appreciated.

You might want to post a new topic instead of distracting from this "speedometer science" topic... :P