I was just wondering which octane gas the Element requires?

I'm considering purchasing one, and since I drive a long way to school and back every day, gas prices are important.

Speaking of gas, I'm just wondering if the element will be able to consistently hit low-mid 20mpg with 90% city driving? I checked the other thread but didn't recieve the answer I was looking for.

Thanks!

According to my Element owners manual it is designed to operate on unleaded gasoline with an octane of 86 or higher. They go on to recommend gasoline containing detergent additives. Hope this helps.

Keithmo

Woot,

So far, mostly city driving, I am getting just under 20 miles per gal. It is still during the breakin period, so mileage is still on the way up.

Hmmm. Thanks for the info.

I'll have to put some serious thought into this.

Thanks again.

I drive all around LA, and while the gas mileage was under 20 for a while untill it was broken in. The mileage then went up and has leveled of somewhere between 21-22 MPG. Its not great but its better than most SUV's.

21-22 in the city is great for an SUV. That is what Honda says you should get.

Well, 21-22 is certainly better than the 16 I'm getting now. ;)

If it's gas milage you want, look at the hybrid civic. You'll get 50+ in the city. A gas/electric element would be interesting.

Our dealer told us regular gas only in the Element.

jnes,

That would be regular unleaded gas, regualar would not work well. :)

Would it hurt to put premium unleaded in the EL?
I have put prem in my Suzuki Sidekick for 6 years.

Nope. If you can afford it....pump it in!!

86 Octane and up works fine.

You can't get leaded gas in the US any more can you?

I did read on changing out the on board computer chip to increase performance if you are willing to buy higher Octane gases like 92 but that was in Civics. You often received a few more horses but I don't know if you can change out the chip in the Element.

[quote:3846ca98fd="RML"]Woot,

So far, mostly city driving, I am getting just under 20 miles per gal. It is still during the breakin period, so mileage is still on the way up.[/quote:3846ca98fd]i really hope so.. :D

I HEAR ITS GOOD TO JUST GO WITH 87 AND EVRY MONTH OR SO GO WITH A HIGHER OCTANE AND THEN GO BACK AFTER THAT TANK. KINDA LIKE USING GAS TREATMENT. BUT, HEY I'M NOT A MECHANIC BUT, SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD IDEA, JUST STAY CONSTANT THOUGH.

I have a friend that will tell ya that higher octanes could lead to longer or hotter ingnition of fuel air mix and that a lower octane when recommended is indeed better because of too hot combustion could do long term damage. I have had experiance with older cars that liked the higher octane and got better milage and were fine with that but wish the manufacturer would explain the reasons for recomendations not just lay down the law.

Going with higher octane than needed not only wastes money but robs you of power. Octane only is a measure of how well a fuel resists explosion. Thus if you have a really high compression engine you use high octane so you don't ping. Higher octane fuel has a lower energy density though, so if you don't need the octane to not ping then you're losing power.

The Element only needs 86 octane unleaded. Do not waste money on 93 octane super premium-you do not need it.

As far as mileage I average 22-23 in town and 24-25 hwy. My mileage has improved with getting a few thousand miles on the E. That is in a 4WD LX Auto.

The Element only needs 86 octane unleaded. Do not waste money on 93 octane super premium-you do not need it.


This is true, realistically there should only be two octanes in the U.S. Regular 85-87 and Premium 91-93. Premium is for cars that require it and they say "premium fuel only" on the instrament panel and around the fuel cap. All others, its just a waste of money. I bet even an elimination of the middle grade would drop gas prices about 20 cents. :roll:

Thank you Bigjimmy. The more-octane-is-better fallacy is hard to stamp out.

Use the lowest octane fuel recommended by the manufacturer, unless your engine pings. Carbon buildup can effectively increase compression ratio by a tiny bit and cause ping under some circumstances. In that case go up a grade and see. I doubt any Element will need to go up an octane grade in the first 100K.

Is leaded gas sold in any state?

On a trip out west when Katrina was causing gas spikes I pulled into the only station in a little one horse town and they only had premium, and so I ran a tank of 93 octane and that tank was the worst mpg of the whole trip. Where I normally average close to 25mpg that one was down around 22-23.

I was in the same area three months later and filled up at the same station with 86 octane and that tank ran almost 26 mpg.

So my experience is that super is not only too much $$ but also lowers mpg.

I do try to only fill up at Top Tier stations and actually seek out Chevron, with Shell, Phillips 66, and Conoco as my backups.

As stated above, there are many myths about what the octane rating of gas actually is. Octane has NOTHING to due with the power or temperature of a cars engine. The octane rating of gas is actually a measurement of the fuels resistance to compression based pre-detonation (engine knock or ping). Based on the fuels octane rating, there is a point where the gas will ignite without a spark present. This pre-detonation can throw off the engine timing and can not only cause performance issues, but even engine damage. In a high performance engine, the compression ratio is higher thus increasing the chance for pre-detonation of lower octane gas. This is why higher octane is recommended by the manufacture. Even after slapping on a CIA and free flow exhaust, I would not worry about increasing the octane of the gas we use in our Es. It's just not necessary.

- Ray

On a trip out west when Katrina was causing gas spikes I pulled into the only station in a little one horse town and they only had premium, and so I ran a tank of 93 octane and that tank was the worst mpg of the whole trip. Where I normally average close to 25mpg that one was down around 22-23.

I was in the same area three months later and filled up at the same station with 86 octane and that tank ran almost 26 mpg.

So my experience is that super is not only too much $$ but also lowers mpg.

I do try to only fill up at Top Tier stations and actually seek out Chevron, with Shell, Phillips 66, and Conoco as my backups.

Yes, the heat content of higher octane fuels is slightly less. Using premium when your car cannot advance the timing to take advantage of the increased octane is a waste of money and usually causes poorer mileage.

My Lincoln Mark VIII demanded 91 or higher. However, On long boring trips at 75 mph, I would fill with regular and get 29.5 mpg! No pinging because the engine was not trying to advance itself to produce more power. I would get 28.4 on the same trip with premium...

There are many threads here regarding octane, just do a search and you'll find many informative posts from MikeQBF, myself, and other posters regarding octane and the myths associated with it. My personal mileage log has shown that my worst gas mileage has come when I experimented with higher octane fuel.

Octane thread (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14013&highlight=octane)

Octane thread 2 (http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15241&highlight=octane)

not to altogether sure about all of the info on octane in the E
I know the book says 87, but will 89 hurt the engine? I usually run 87 but I put in 89 the other day and the gas guage seems to be moving south a little slower and for the 10 cents a gallon diff it's only an extra $1.20 or so a fill up if it ups the mileage by 2 or 3 mpg it may be thats about equal to 1 extra gallon of gas!
I don't ever see going to 93 octane as it would be overkill and I don't think the benifit would be there but upping the octane by 2 I don't think will hurt.
the other thing is VA just added ethonal to the fuel vs md85 which lowers the quality of the fuel and so you get less MPG maybe the extra octane will bring it back up. I don't know but I am still on the 1st tank anybody have any Ideas or other thoughts8) :D :D

I use 87 octane.

Just a note to those that do use premium fuel. The colder it gets , the harder to start with premium. Always use regular below freezing and it will start easier, Tim

I can't understand why anyone would put premium in a car that doesn't need it with prices being what they are, but that is just me.:)

I can't understand why anyone would put premium in a car that doesn't need it with prices being what they are, but that is just me.:)

everyone do yourself a fave and just put 87 in your E. My wife drives (took over) the 06 Acura TL and that needs 93. I don't even attempt to put in anything lower in that machine. But with the E I go to my local Shell and fill up. I have been brainwashed by Shell :twisted: as my father drives a 04 BMW 325xi and swears by Shell blah blah. He says their additives are the best. Whatever!

But I remember going to a hole in the wall gas station for its cheap price and my car actually stalled a few times. I had no idea what it was. Finally on next fill up I went to BP and my car was fine then on the next fill up I went to the hole in the wall to fill up and my car started to stall again. Bad gas?

Bad gas?

Yes, but more like contaminated with water.

There is a fallacy in the other direction, too, though.

A lot of people will tell you that using higher octane can damage your car. It may not help, and it might get you lower mpg, but if you read the Honda manual it will say you need a minimum octane - it does not warn against using higher.

I think, at worse, you're just wasting money. Instead of higher octane for the additives, use a good gas treatment about as often as you change the oil, and you should be good to go.

Just to muddy the waters a bit here, it's also altitude dependent. My manual recommends 87 octane which I have to assume means "at sea level". I live 4000ft up in Utah. For every 1000ft increase in elevation you can drop 0.5 from the octane rating. 4000ft = -2 which means 85 up here. I ran 88 for the first few tanks until I remembered this and now I'm running 85. No noticable pinging or detonation, no noticeable change in speed, power or torque using my butt-dyno.

But that does lead to an interesting question : does the engine management system have any measure of air density as oppose to air temperature? Or does it just assume sea-level for all operating conditions? What about humidity?
The one day the temps went down below 70 here in the last month, it pissed it down with rain and the E had noticably more pickup. The same happens with my motorbike - cold, wet days give much, much better engine response. I know why - cold, damp air means more of charge during combustion, but can the engine management system "understand" this?

I guess what I'm getting at is : does the computer "think" it needs 87 octane no matter what altitude you drive at? Or does it advance and retard the ignition timing based on a sea-level mapping where the air has a certain density?

I think the owners manual should simply state that the E requires "regular unleaded fuel" and that would satisfy every possible scenario possible, eh? Buying mid-grade and premium fuels for the E are simply fattening the wallets of big oil and they do not need much help these days.

I think the owners manual should simply state that the E requires "regular unleaded fuel" and that would satisfy every possible scenario possible, eh?

Yeah - it's kinda weird that they mention a specific octane given that it's not exactly a high compression-ratio engine.

Not sure if its worth it yet, but on the last three fill-ups with 89 octane, I am getting between 1.3 and 2 mpg better. Mostly city driving. This is the first time I have tried 89 since I installed the AEM CAI. I tried 89 last yr and did not notice any difference before the CAI was installed. I am averaging between 19 and 20 mpg now. Highway is still 24-25 mpg at 70 to 75 mph, that did not seem to change. Has anyone else tried different octane's after a CAI install? Time will tell, Tim

Would it hurt to put premium unleaded in the EL?
I have put prem in my Suzuki Sidekick for 6 years.

you are a fool, and are much poorer that you pay for premium


wise man say.. if car say take 87... smart man do

Wise man also temper criticism to not alienate those to whom the comment is directed...:rolleyes:

Wise man also temper criticism to not alienate those to whom the comment is directed...:rolleyes:

grandpa... me not understand your sayings.. this is not college paper. just forum for car.

grandpa... me not understand your sayings.. this is not college paper. just forum for car.

Softly softly catchy monkey?

you are a fool, and are much poorer that you pay for premium


wise man say.. if car say take 87... smart man do

See if you can understand this...Dumas, that post is 3 years old!

you can read!

I dont mean to be mean, but if anyone would ever even think of putting leaded gas in something that had anything less than 13:1 compression, should be shot. So quit trying to be smart and witty, or whatever it is your doing. People are not as stupid as you may think they are. Go indulge yourself in some other realm.

That would be regular unleaded gas, regualar would not work well. :)[/QUOTE]

leaded gas in what?? wtf are you talking about, i didnt even say the word lead... its simple... if your car doesnt require premium.. its smart not to pay for it. high octane gas does 2 things... burns cleaner, and feeds high compression motors. its not going to add horsepower or boost fuel economy.

My 06 runs like crap on all 87 juice found in MD-DE-PA.
Why? I have no idea. Honestly I get 89 for say 5-6 cents more a gallon and the engine noise reduces by a ton. The car is far smoother and mileage goes up. It feels like a free 30 hp over reg unleaded. The book says its not required. This new Element of mine has soot issues in the tail pipe too.
I stumbled on the 89 octane deal during a shortage of 87 on the east coast.

Anybody else seen this?
On 87 the engine with 3700 miles sounds like a ragged out low quality pos..........:confused:



According to my Element owners manual it is designed to operate on unleaded gasoline with an octane of 86 or higher. They go on to recommend gasoline containing detergent additives. Hope this helps.

Keithmo

This new Element of mine has soot issues in the tail pipe too.

Soot issues? What do you mean ?

Soot in the tail pipe from I guess unburnt fuel.
Just like an old car that burns oil- my tailpipe inside is black and cruddy- I clean it and its back in short order. That tells me why my mileage stinks.
Car does not burn oil.

Umm.

Maybe I'm missing something here but every car I've ever had has done this from my old 1983 VW Golf up through a succession of cars to my current 2002 Subaru and 2006 E. Take a white piece of fabric and hold it over the end of any exhaust pipe for 3 or 4 seconds and you'll get a black doughnut (from the end of the tailpipe) filled with black particles (from the exhaust gasses).

Or have all 8 of my cars had some problem I'm not aware of? (and FWIW all 7 of my motorbikes I've owned) ?

I'm talking excessive soot.
A Hyundai with 130K miles on it is practically soot free.
My Element looks like a qt every 100 miles-oil burner. That aint normal

Oooh.
Picture?

I can get one after the rain ends. I'll have to look up the uploading procedure.
I cleaned it last week with Simple Green- but its dirty again after 30 miles- not filthy but dirty already. Does not burn oil though- not down a drop.

Would anybody be interested in an article that appeared in UK car mag I subscribe to, which looked into this on some Europen cars?

Basically take some cars, drain them, put in some fuel of different grades and then test them on a rolling road? Compare results.

If so I will type it up (its no longer online so I can't post a link to it).

Thxs!!!!!!!!
No two cars operate the same on any given fuel.
Just because the rule is 87 octane across the board does not mean its ideal for your car and that the fuel thats listed as 87 is actually that.

This article appeared in a weekly UK car magazine I get mailed to me. Some slight difference, in the UK our fuel ratings are higher than in the US and I suppose we pay more for that. At the end of the article I have changed it from pence per litre and made it cost per gallon and using today’s exchange rates put it in dollars also. It also went on to list major vehicle maufacturers and whether which fuel was acceptable in their cars and the exceptions.

Exactly how super is super unleaded? Top fuel companies have been pushing their premium petrol hard over the past few years, and now supermarket giant Tesco (similar to Wal-Mart) has joined the exclusive club – it’s ‘99’ octane fuels is rolling across the country after a successful trial. But is super worth the extra cash, and what exactly do you get for that pricey fill-up? Armed with two cars, a rolling road and top diagnostic engineers, we set out to discover the answers.
Super unleaded – which is a fuel with a Research Octane Number (RON) of 97 or higher – can be found in most major filling stations. Super has a higher resistance to knock – a power-sapping engine characteristic, often heard as a ‘pinging’ noise under hard acceleration. In extreme cases, knock increases fuel consumption, causers higher emissions to be pumped out and destroys costly engine components, including pistons, valves and head gaskets.
If you can eliminate knock, power isn’t wasted in the engine and more is fed to the wheels – a fuel with a high RON rating will do exactly that.

But unfortunately, it’s not as simple as filling up with the fuel and expecting more power. Your car’s electronic control unit (ECU) has to adjust settings to allow for the higher-quality fuel – if it doesn’t, you don’t get any added punch. Many performance engines have built-in ‘knock sensors’ which alter engine management settings to ensure maximum power is gained, but you need to check with your dealer that your car has one.
However, fuel companies argue super in not only about performance. Different retailers package their fuels with cleansing and ant-wear additives which can protect injectors and the fuel system. But the main selling point pushed by the marketing men is super unleaded’s ability to increase performance.
An alternative to this fuel is to drop octane-boosting additives into a tank of regular unleaded. This reduces knock and increases power, too, but again your car’s ECU needs to adjust to the mix.
It’s not only petrol power plants that have a ‘super’ offering. The moniker is being added to diesel pumps – buts it’s here the mystery deepens. There is no British Standard for enhanced derv, giving the fuel firms a free hand as to what constitutes ‘super’. However, it’s usually a fuel with a higher Cetane number (the diesel equivalent of RON) than the 51 standard, and is often packaged with extra cleansing and environmentally friendly additives.
If you’re looking for performance gains, by all means fill up with super, but make sure you check that your car is equipped to provide all the benefits before paying the premium at the pumps.

The test

To test the fuels, we drained the tanks of a Vauxhall Astra VXR and VW Polo and filled them with each variety. We drove 60 miles to allow the engine management systems to maximise settings, and then carried out a rolling road test, which measures power delivered at the wheels.
Both Tesco 99 and shell Optimax recorded similar increases in the VXR, which adjusts engine settings. However, BP Ultimate was nearly 4bhp down on regular unleaded. In the Polo 1.2 litre an engine which doesn’t adjust – performance was not much different except for the BP fuel, down again 4bhp again.
Surry Rolling Road’s Charlie Wright (facility they used) who carried out the testing, said he thought the BP fuel was ‘a bad batch’. “The results were unusual for BP, but it is clear that unless your car adjusts for super unleaded there really is no point paying the extra for it – as the Polo figures prove, “ he explained.
We asked BP why its Ultimate performed so badly, and it said fuel tests could be influenced by a number of conditions. “BP Ultimate has shown power benefits of up to 15bhp over ordinary unleaded,” added a spokeswoman.

Fuel__________________ Regular (95ron)_____BP Ultimate (97ron)_____Shell Optimax (98ron)_____Tesco 99 (99ron)
Cost Per gallon_________ £4.21/$8.16________£4.59/$8.67___________£4.45/$8.41_____________£4.54/$8.59
Vauxhall Astra VXR______213.5bhp___________209.7bhp_____________2 22.2bhp_______________221.3bhp
VW Polo 1.2____________70.7bhp___________66.2bhp__________ ___69bhp___________________69.4bhp

RiDE magazine did a similar test about a year ago on motorbikes - can higher octane or "super" petrol give better power and mpg, and for the most part, it was an overwhelming "no". Shell had some interesting results, but I seem to remember it was only 1bhp or less. I can dig that article out if anyone is interested.

Re: photo of the pipe tip - I'd be interested to see that. Mine is black inside (duh) and has a little black smudge over the lip at the bottom, presumably through aerodynamics. The rest of the rim and the outside of the pipe is clean (well - clean-ish - it's covered in road cr@p right now :-))

However.
Forget 91-93 octane.
Take your 2005-2006 Honda and wait until 89 is cheap ( happens here often- just paid $2.71) Make sure your near empty. Put in a half tank or full tank.

Forget mileage tests ( thats not the concern)
Tell me if it does not quiet your engine and give you a more brisk throttle response. My old Acura Integras p-ssed out high octane.
But from my experience with 3 Elements they can use 89 and make it worthwhile. They were all AWD and 2006.
I would try these brands ( tested)
Texaco
Shell
BP
Chevron

However.
Forget 91-93 octane.
Take your 2005-2006 Honda and wait until 89 is cheap ( happens here often- just paid $2.71) Make sure your near empty. Put in a half tank or full tank.

Forget mileage tests ( thats not the concern)
Tell me if it does not quiet your engine and give you a more brisk throttle response. My old Acura Integras p-ssed out high octane.
But from my experience with 3 Elements they can use 89 and make it worthwhile. They were all AWD and 2006.
I would try these brands ( tested)
Texaco
Shell
BP
Chevron

Again - altitude-dependent. 89 octane at sea level is the same as 87 in the Rockies.....

87 must really be 85. Then using 89 when you typically use 87 still means your up 2? No?

87 must really be 85. Then using 89 when you typically use 87 still means your up 2? No?

Well - the way I understand it, the Honda handbook recommends 87 octane or higher. It doesn't specify where, so I have to assume it means "at sea level". From what I've seen, the three grades "lower down" in the country are 87, 89 and 91. At 4000ft, places like Salt Lake City, and Denver, the three grades are 85, 87 and 89 - all two points less.
Because of the thinner air, octane ratings go down with altitude, so when Honda say "87 minimum" I have to assume that they mean "regular gas". Up here, regular is 85, which makes sense.
FWIW when I switched from 87 to 85, my mpg went up measurably.

Like I said, this is all based on scientific assumption. Honda don't know the answer - at least the four people I've spoken to on their 1-800 numbers are clueless. I'm also not in posession of all the info on how engine management systems work. I know they measure airflow using a hotwire sensor, but I don't know if they have any way of measuring actual air volume. At 4000ft, there's less volume for the same flow rate because the air is thinner. So does the engine management system "know" that there's less volume and adjust the timing and fueling accordingly? I doubt it, hence my assumption that 87 octane minimum actually means "regular gas", which for me means 85. That theory is backed up by the fact that when we get cold, wet air, all my vehicles including my E perform noticably better. Cold wet air is dense, so more air gets into the fuel-air charge in the cylinders for combustion, meaning more power. If the engine management computer could measure air volume rather than air flow, there'd be no difference.

It's bloody confusing. I wish they'd just put "use regular gas" in the manual.

I've had my Element for a little over 2 months (AWD, auto, bought used around 40K miles) and did a very unscientific mileage test. Compared 2 tanks of regular unleaded-87 octane and 2 tanks of 10% ethanol unleaded-89 octane. Got around 20 mpg with each type of gas. I noticed only a very small 0.13 mpg increase when I used the ethanol blend. I do about 85% in-town and 15% highway trips of 10 mi. or less each.

Don't know if this helps the discussion, but it's offered FWIW. Cheers. :)

My dealer is going to let me have a new 07 in my choice of color. I have to pay the tax only. Issue resolved.

I've had my Element for a little over 2 months (AWD, auto, bought used around 40K miles) and did a very unscientific mileage test. Compared 2 tanks of regular unleaded-87 octane and 2 tanks of 10% ethanol unleaded-89 octane. Got around 20 mpg with each type of gas. I noticed only a very small 0.13 mpg increase when I used the ethanol blend. I do about 85% in-town and 15% highway trips of 10 mi. or less each.

Don't know if this helps the discussion, but it's offered FWIW. Cheers. :)

I hate to point it out, but almost all gas is E-10 right now, irrespective of whether it's advertised as such. You'd have to be really lucky to find a service station still selling unblended gas.
It's one of the reasons it's difficult to get the EPA milage because EPA tests use unblended gasoline. E-10 instantly robs you of 5% of your mpg because ethanol has less energy per volume than gasoline.

I hate to point it out, but almost all gas is E-10 right now, irrespective of whether it's advertised as such.

Yup.......