Element Gas Mileage: Hybrids Aren't Much Better! [Archive] - Honda Element Owners Club Forum

: Element Gas Mileage: Hybrids Aren't Much Better!


BigFoot
05-12-2004, 04:12 PM
Article from Wired: http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

Hybrid cars are hot, but not as hot as their owners, who complain that their gas mileage hasn't come close to well-advertised estimates.

Don't knock the car companies for inflated claims: Experts say the blame lies with the 19-year-old EPA fuel-efficiency test that overstates hybrid performance.

Pete Blackshaw was so excited about getting a hybrid gasoline-electric car that he had his wife videotape the trip to the Honda dealership to pick up his Civic Hybrid. The enthusiastic owner ordered a customized license plate with "MO MILES" on it, and started a blog about his new hybrid lifestyle.

But after a few months of commuting to his job in Cincinnati, Blackshaw's hybrid euphoria vanished as his car's odometer revealed that the gas mileage he was hoping for was only a pipe dream. Honda's Civic Hybrid is rated by the EPA to get 47 miles per gallon in the city, and 48 mpg on the highway. After nearly 1,000 miles of mostly city driving, Blackshaw was getting 31.4 mpg.

"I feel like a complete fraud driving around Cincinnati with a license plate that says MO MILES," says Blackshaw, who claims that after 4,000 miles his car has never gotten more than 33 mpg on any trip. The tenor of Blackshaw's blog shifted from adulation to frustration after his Honda dealer confirmed that his car was functioning properly, and that there was nothing he could do.

Blackshaw, who is chief customer satisfaction officer at Intelliseek.com, spoke to a Honda regional manager about his concerns, and wrote a letter to a Honda vice president on April 15 that was not answered. His story has been echoed dozens of times online by owners of the Honda Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius.

Drivers rarely see the actual EPA-rated mileage in the real world, according to John DiPietro, road-test editor of automotive website Edmunds.com. DiPietro says most drivers will get between 75 to 87 percent of the rated mileage, with individual variations based on driving habits and traffic route. "If a new car gets less than 75 percent of its EPA rating, then it should be retested."

Data from independent product-testing organization Consumer Reports indicates that hybrid cars get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets. In Consumer Reports' real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg. Hybrid cars performed much closer to EPA estimates in Consumer Reports' highway tests.

Consumer Reports' senior auto test engineer Gabriel Shenhar says that while the EPA test is a lab simulation, Consumer Reports puts the cars on the streets and measures the fuel consumed to more accurately reflect gas mileage.

The 19-year-old EPA tests for city and highway mileage actually gauge vehicle emissions and use that data to derive an estimated fuel-efficiency rating. The EPA tests pre-production vehicles in a lab to simulate vehicle starts and stops on crowded city streets and open road conditions. According to the EPA website, "The tests measure the waste substances emitted from consuming the fuel, not the actual fuel consumed. From the measurement of emissions, EPA can estimate the miles per gallon achieved by the vehicle on average."

"The (EPA) test needs to include more fundamental engineering," says John H. Johnson, an automotive expert who co-authored a 2002 National Academy of Sciences report on fuel-efficiency standards. "They haven't been updated to encompass hybrids."

Johnson says the test was created so that it could be affordably reproduced, not to be as accurate as possible. "It's complicated to simulate all of the engineering factors in a moving vehicle," says Johnson, and hybrid cars, which use batteries to assist the gasoline engine, make the task all the more daunting.

The EPA did not respond to questions about its testing procedures in time to appear in this article.

Honu
05-13-2004, 12:24 AM
Thanks for the post.
This has been a long standing complaint of mine about hybrids.
For the added complexity and expense and loss of carrying capacity, I just expected more of them. Heck my daughter's 97 Tercel gas engine car gets 40mpg, so I was expecting more than a slight nudge in mileage, even before reading they don't get anywhere close to their rating in the real world with real drivers.
Start nailing a 100mpg and it might grab my attention enough to justify the ROI. (Return on investment).

The article confirms that the naturally lazy car companies need a bit more nudging to get the numbers up to something worthwhile. :roll:

On the other hand I am glad my Elemental box gets better than the Hummer's 7 mpg city rating.....

Majisto
05-15-2004, 01:09 PM
That's what you get for expecting a small car motor to move a vehicle up hills with air conditioning efficiently.

Diesel-Electric is the only hybrid technology. Screw the gas motor, it's time for Diesel to shine.

elementincanada
12-10-2007, 09:31 PM
Has anyone heard of any talks of a release of an E Hybrid??

I would be pretty interested in this.

Kira
03-23-2008, 12:30 PM
i've heard that about hybrids. a few of my friends have them and they don't see the gas mileages that are most appealing. 45 is about the average best. At that mileage, hybrid technology isn't selling me. However I do kind of want to buy a used Honda Insight, but alot of that is b/c I miss driving a miniscule car.

My brother just bought a new Civic--a non-hybrid, and he's seeing an average of 40mpg. Mom's Civic, from '96, is still seeing 35mpg. My old Mini, a '78, was seeing 40mpg too--and that was definitely cheaper than any hybrid, new or used.
:)

Miss Ellie & Co.
03-23-2008, 01:34 PM
What I've been told about Hybrids is...
The hybrids do thier thing under 35 MPH.
Driving over 35 MPH in a Hybrid and you're in the normal gasoline mode.
Hybrids are for city use; stop and go traffic.
Hybrids are suppose to be useless if the majority of driving is on freeways or driving over 40 MPH.
Or so I hear.

UP&ATOM
03-23-2008, 03:25 PM
Just some fodder for the noggin'.

My wife's 2006 Honda Civic hybrid averaged 37mpg for the first 10 months of driving. As of January 2008, she regularly racks up 46mpg. She's driven the same distance to work, same time of day and same traffic since she purchased the car.

During a recent run up I-40 from Wilmington to Raleigh, she ran 49mpg at a steady 70mph.

Many of the hybrid forums talk about a "break in" period....we've obviously experienced it.

As for an "E" hybrid, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

I average 23mpg in town with my 2005 AWD and just a smattering better on the highway. Usually around 24-26mpg.

Just my 2cents!

Miss Ellie & Co.
03-23-2008, 03:50 PM
I would tend to believe that a Element Hybrid wouldn't achieve much in the way of fuel savings with it's Box like areo dynamics and tall profile.
Hybrids can also use lighter body panels, spun aluminum wheels and other lightweight components.

lwclancers
03-23-2008, 05:01 PM
That is completely wrong, depending on which hybrid you have.

What I've been told about Hybrids is...
The hybrids do thier thing under 35 MPH.
Driving over 35 MPH in a Hybrid and you're in the normal gasoline mode.
Hybrids are for city use; stop and go traffic.
Hybrids are suppose to be useless if the majority of driving is on freeways or driving over 40 MPH.
Or so I hear.

lizzurd
03-23-2008, 05:05 PM
What I've been told about Hybrids is...
The hybrids do thier thing under 35 MPH.
Driving over 35 MPH in a Hybrid and you're in the normal gasoline mode.
Hybrids are for city use; stop and go traffic.
Hybrids are suppose to be useless if the majority of driving is on freeways or driving over 40 MPH.
Or so I hear.


My nieghbour has a 2006 Civic Hybrid and does a 50 mile round trip hiway commute every day and is averaging 45 mpg.

porttackstart
03-23-2008, 05:09 PM
I only drive my Element 9,000 miles a year so the fuel savings of a hybrid are not worth the compromises I would have to make in terms of utility, fun, and happiness.

On the other hand, I work as an admissions counselor at a university and do some substantial traveling in the fall and the spring. When I am traveling I typically cover about 1,000 miles a week. The university owns 7 Toyota Priuses and I typically receive a consistent 46-49mpg. Some of our 2005 Priuses already have over 70,000 miles so it is pretty obvious that the hybrid is an excellent choice for the university.

It all depends on how many miles you drive per year.

On a personal note I think the Prius is an excellent travel vehicle. The university also owns a Chevy Malibu and 4 Impalas but the Priuses are the ones that people use the most and quality wise they have held up superbly in comparison with the Chevys.

Wee Element
03-24-2008, 10:22 PM
My daughter's Nissan Altima hybrid gets between 35-37 always, town or highway. Plus it delivers 190 horse power combined. Beats the 19 I get in the E.

Captain Obvious
05-14-2008, 12:01 PM
I had a little Honda Insight before I got my E and I got an average of 58 mpg out of that baby. It was just so small... My Mother has got an '04 Prius and she gets about 48-49 mpg and there's lots of room in that sucker considering it's a fairly small car.