Why do Honda dealers treat their customers like they are doing them a favor selling them a car?

I want to buy an Element but I can't find anyone who will go below sticker on it. Pardon me, but I refuse to pay sticker price. I can get a GM employee discount through my dad but they don't have a car like the Element.

I guess my question is this: Has anyone found a Honda dealer that is willing to make a deal?

[quote:aabed9b142="getmygoat"]Why do Honda dealers treat their customers like they are doing them a favor selling them a car? I want to buy an Element but I can't find anyone who will go below sticker on it. Pardon me, but I refuse to pay sticker price. [/quote:aabed9b142]

Don't get mad at the dealers. Get mad at the customers who will pay sticker or above. Can you answer this question: why would any intelligent car dealer (or any other business person) sell something for less than the market will bear?

On GM: The price of the typical GM car includes $1,400 to pay for the retirement benefits of GM employees.

Thanks Jonathan

I live in Michigan where (practically) everyone drives GM, Ford or Chrysler. I have only seen 1 Element on the road and I am on the road about half of every day. I don't think the demand for Hondas in Michigan is the same as it is in California or practically any other state.

I guess I just get the feeling that, instead of making a fair deal on a car they are holding out in hopes that some dummy will come in and pay over-sticker. (there's a sucker born every minute)

I work in sales and would have no luck if I treated my customers in this fashion. I read somewhere that Honda was putting it's salespeople through trainging to eliminate the "If you don't buy it someone else will." attitude... Hasn't worked so far.

Well, unofficially, HONDA stands for "Highly Overpriced Never Discounted Auto" :-)

But, my Element EX is my 6th Honda. I never got a deal on any of them but bought them anyway, and still got my money's worth. The dealer I bought the E from was very nice (probably because he had buyers lined up for my Odyssey I was trading in). I agree that they could benefit from losing the "someone else will buy it" attitude.

Regards,
SOL

[quote:bf85adab45="getmygoat"]Why do Honda dealers treat their customers like they are doing them a favor selling them a car?

I want to buy an Element but I can't find anyone who will go below sticker on it. Pardon me, but I refuse to pay sticker price. I can get a GM employee discount through my dad but they don't have a car like the Element.

I guess my question is this: Has anyone found a Honda dealer that is willing to make a deal?[/quote:bf85adab45]

You can find a dealer that will discount E's...it's not that hard to do. You might go out of your area to do it.

I bought my E from Motorworld in Wilkes-Barre, PA. They were excellent and admitted that they had no reason to sell them below sticker price. However, I timed my purchase during the last week of the month. They get incentives for the number of cars they sell and want to pack them in before the first of the next month. They were flexible and gave me a more than a few hundred off sticker price and accessories at cost. Timing is everything with a vehicle like this. :lol:

Goofyfoot
Black EX 4WD

I think paid under list.
The dealer's starting price for my DX with ONLY AC was $19800. It actually would list for $17775 (plus AC install charges).
After a long afternoon of pretending to walk out of the negotiation, I traded in a car worth $3000(Kelley Blue Book price, in good condition) with a non-functional driver door.
I financed $14500. My old car is really worth $2500, especially here in truckland. They claimed they gave me $4500 for my car....
So how ever you want to figure it, it's got to be less than MSRP.

Until yesterday, I'd never driven anything but a Ford. I grew up within walking distance of Ford national headquarters. I come from a Ford family. I even got the Ford employee family discount on my previous two vehicles, both of them Rangers. So when I decided that I wanted to even consider the possibility of maybe looking at a Honda, I was informed that I'd have to negotiate for it myself.

Now, that might not sound bad to most people. I mean, most people do end up doing their own negotiating for a new car. However, I'm a 27-year-old female who had absolutely no experience in even negotiating at a garage sale or flea market, who has a soft squeaky voice, who giggles a lot and who just got braces a few days ago so looks about 14.

I knew I was going to have a hellish time with this purchase.

All I knew is that I wanted this vehicle trim with these options (I had two lists, the ones I absolutely NEEDED and the ones I just really wanted) and this was the absolute most I could possibly spend on it each month. I already knew I was going to end up with another lease because of the cheaper payments. At least, until the braces are paid off I can't afford the purchase price of it.

I tried avoidance tactics, like using the online quote and going through email. Eventually though I realized I was going to have to set foot in the dealership.

Now at the time I first went to the dealership (Fischer Honda in Ypsilanti, MI on Michigan Ave), I was just going to take a peek at the CRVs and I wanted to see the Element in person. Honestly, the first time I saw a picture of the Element, I didn't care for it. But the picture was really nothing like the Element in person and the moment I turned the corner and saw the Element, I knew that was The Car. I knew I was going to get one, even if I had to sell my husband for it.

I hadn't planned on test driving anything that day. I had taken the day off work to go to a follow up dental appointment. I could barely talk because of the new braces. I was wearing scrubby jeans, a T-shirt and a long knit sweater with fringe on it (being Michigan, it was like 60 degrees out. Of course, it snowed the next day). I had my hair in a ponytail. In short, I looked like a scrubby teenager. I wasn't expecting to deal with sales people and thought a polite 'Just looking' would work at a dealership, just like it does in the mall. However, a nice woman passing by asked if I wanted to see inside anything and I couldn't resist.

She ended up allowing me to take the Element to my appointment, despite knowing that it was almost 30 miles away (one way) and that I'd be gone for at least a couple of hours. By the time I got halfway to my appointment, I knew I was going to get one. The problem was, the dealing part of it had me wanting to run in fear.

So I got back and didn't have time to discuss price and things because I had to get to class. So she gave me her card and a ballpark figure of what kind of payments we'd be talking for the Element and I filled out a form with my contact information, just dreading it all the while that every time my phone rang at work, it might be her wanting to know when I wanted to negotiate price.

She called me once a few days later to let me know that they were going to get a gold (shoreline mist) one in in a couple of days just in case I wanted dibs on it. That was it. No pressure, just a polite FYI and a mention that she hopes my mouth's feeling better from the braces and I sound a lot better when I talk.

I came in a few days later when I had another day off work and sat down with her. This was it. This was The Deal. It ended up being smooth sailing. I had a quote from someone else and they beat it. I now pay less each month than my original quote with all the options on both my NEED list and my WANT list. Plus I got free scented soap.

So far in my attempts at negotiatin for a new vehicle, I have found that Honda dealers aren't really willing to budge much from their little comfort zone. I will be buying my Element first thing on a Saturday morning in less than 2 weeks. There are 4 dealers in my area and I plan on using that to my advantage. Walking away from the table will definitely get me the deal I want.

thoughts?

Maybe you can try to pit them against each other to get a better deal but then you probably wouldn't get any scented soap! I guess you could buy some with the hundreds of dollars that you save.

Just for the record, my dealer (MotorCars Honda/Pontiac/Toyota - Cleveland Hts. OH) was friendly, helpful and gave me a very nice deal.

Drew

We got a fairly nice deal ($700 below sticker).....but it took some shopping around and some patience.

I am a very impulsive person...and as soon as I test drove the E I wanted to bring it home, but for this very reason we drove the car that we weren't trading in to the dealership.

We shopped around for two weeks, hitting all the Honda dealerships in the St. Louis area and getting internet quotes from several dealers in Chicago...we went with the dealership that not only had the best price, but also treated us with the most respect. In my mind they were deserving of our business, and we will be going back to them next year to buy my husband's new car.

I think what it really comes down to is service and comfort with the interaction between the dealership and the consumer. To be honest I would have bought from the dealer that we did end up going with even if they didn't have the lowest price.....because they put me at ease and realized that the overall satisfaction of the consumer is more important than the pace of the sale.

i totally agree. I have chosen my dealership who already told me they will give me the best price and knock out my paperwork fees ($299.50) It was the first dealership who contacted me via email and the ONLY dealership who has been consistent with their customer service. As this is my first NEW car, I look at this as to where I will be buying future cars.

A Honda dealership in Paramus, New Jersey, offered an EX element for $500 below sticker price, but then tried to totally jerk me around on the trade in ($8,000 for a Toyota Corolla that was listed for $9,500 on Edmunds as a trade-in). They wouldn't budge on that, so ultimately I got my E through a broker in South Jersey who charged me sticker price for the car, but gave me a whopping $10,000 for the Corolla.

Looking back, though, I would shop around at actual dealers more the next time before going through a broker. You have zero customer support from a broker (once the deal is done, this guy cannot do anything for you in terms of service), and no dealership really feels all that loyal to you. I added some things back at the Paramus dealership (fog lamps and step rails), and I don't think it was the same level of service you would get if I had purchased the truck there. (I had always received excellent service when I would take my Chevy Blazer back to the dealership where I bought the car.) The Honda dealership sort of botched the fog lamp installation, and wouldn't rectify things, so I ended up fixing it myself.

It's all supply and demand, though. The first Honda place I checked out wouldn't budge on the sticker price and only had a couple of Elements in stock. The Paramus location had 12 Elements on their lot, and so they were willing to bargain a bit more.

Keep looking. You'll get your price. :D

GOODNESS GRACIOUS!!!

So the dealer I had decided to go with is changing their minds about the price quoted. Which is fine since I have a different dealer, who happens to be about 10 miles closer, to give me an even better price.

I am getting a 2WD EX Automatic for $18910. That's a $1000 below sticker and I am pretty satisfied with that. The're doc. fee is only $98.50, but I think I can get that taken off when I go in next thursday to make my purchase.

Average mark up from invoice to msrp is only 1500, and about 400 in holdback. So even if we sell them for MSRP, we still don't make very much money.

I have sold a couple of the people on here their elements and they all received a no hassle, fair price.

500 Under MSRP, including window tint, door guards, keyless entry, alarm system, tire pressure monitors, and automate paint protection at no additional cost.

Any questions,
Austin Kunz
Fleet/Internet Manager
Showcase Honda
Phoenix, AZ
602-604-6522
800-541-8810 ext 7311
akunz@showcasehonda.com

[quote:871a416d4e="akunz"]Average mark up from invoice to msrp is only 1500, and about 400 in holdback. So even if we sell them for MSRP, we still don't make very much money.[/quote:871a416d4e]

Hey, nice going Akunz! It's great to hear of a Honda dealer/salesperson willing to make a deal.

I am aware that the invoice price is not what the dealer actually pays for the car.

Does anybody know how much below invoice the dealer actually pays?

And why all this subversion? Tell us, how much the car really is costing you and what it will cost us. The dealer deserves to make a fair profit but I think that they are making such a huge profit that they are afraid to let us see the real numbers.

I guess I'm just a little upset with the Honda dealers because I want to get a new honda but everytime I turn on the TV I see all the amazing deals & discounts on vehicle after vehicle but none of them hondas. I know honda makes great cars but the competition has been making rapid advances and they're offering 0% financing, cash back, blah, blah, blah.

Maybe it's just that I don't get the feeling that I've gotten a good deal.
Maybe I'm crazy.
Maybe honda dealers are doing us such a great service by allowing us to buy from them that they deserve all that they can get.

[quote:4e2d74f81e="getmygoat"]
Maybe it's just that I don't get the feeling that I've gotten a good deal.
Maybe I'm crazy.
Maybe honda dealers are doing us such a great service by allowing us to buy from them that they deserve all that they can get.[/quote:4e2d74f81e]

Great, great point, getmygoat. Now that I have a little distance from the very unpleasant transaction I had with my dealer, I know I got a very good deal (on the base price of the vehicle). Too bad for them that I got a great car, a decent deal, and yet they scored an average under 2 on my survey.

THe attitude makes all the difference, and theirs was really really poor. I doubt this is unique to Honda, but the attitude I encountered was very retro.

Me and the wife walked in with a trade-in and one thousand cash. Then told the dealer all the stuff we wanted on TWO Elements. The salesman's eyes bugged out of his head. They wound up giving us the keyless entry on both trucks, giving the big armrest, giving us the CD stereo, giving us the window tint, and giving us the 16" mag wheels. Of course, we were the very first ones in our town to buy them (back in Feb). I have since seen about 6 others in this area. I think the keys to getting what you want from any dealer are: waiting until the end of the month to buy because they are anxious to make quota: and being very specific about what you want before you even take the test drive. Our dealer had to do some fancy financing for us admittedly, but the point is we got two brand new Elements for below sticker and with all the must haves we required thrown in.

Here is what a dealer actually pays for the car.

Example: EX 4wd Automatic: MSRP $21,310

Invoice: $19,722

Holdback = 3% of MSRP - Destination 460

21,310-$460 = 20,850 * 3% = $625.50

True Cost = 19,722 - $625.50 = $19,096.50

I bought an Element one week ago here in Santa Rosa, CA from Manly Honda. The salesperson I dealt with was wonderful. He took the time to show me everything (all vehicles) available that could fit my needs. I really wanted an Element, but didn't want to spend the money.

A week after my first visit, and after scouring the area (Sonoma County) for cars that might fit what I was after (both new and used), I decided that I really wanted an Element and should get one. Most used cars in the area with low miles were pretty close in price to a new Element anyway. I have a friend in local car sales who was trying to help me get the best possible deal. He had a friend at another Honda dealership in the area. They quoted me a pretty good price on an Element. When I finally decided to buy one, I wanted to give the sale to the salesperson at Manly that I first dealt with. So I did. They gave me the Element for the price I asked for, without hesitation, which was the price that the other dealership said they'd sell me one for.

Manly and the salesperson have followed up with me and have wanted to make sure that I'm happy with the car. I've been back a couple of times just to chat. It was a very pleasant, all around sale. Nothing like the stereotyped 'car sale'.

And, I just love the Element!

8)

I traded i a 2001 jetta vr6 glx and got a wopping 9500 and edmunds told me about 12000, I went to several dealers such as acura, nissan, mazda and toyota and believe it or not that was the best from sussex honda. They all said the same thing "why should we give you more than wholesale when we can go to an auction and get it there for wholesale"

if you have something you want to sell....the market determines the value....if I want to buy your house for its apraisel value and the market is hot...are you supposed to turn down offers over appraisel?

I paid below sticker too. It took a lot of work and time on my part. Go in with all your numbers including the dealer holdback. Get quotes from other dealers too. Be patient. It is probably also a function of geography (how many competeing dealers in your area) and demand. Good luck and stick it to them because they sure will do it to you given the chance. Bye the way I did catch my dealer in a "math error" so be careful.

My point is that Edmunds and KBB.com says that a car is worth so much on a trade in thats what you should get because these guys at KBB and Edmunds are suposed to be up on this stuff and if the dealer only wants to give you so much especially when the car your trading for is high demand like the "E" your screwed.

Shane,
Sorry to hear about your troubles or dissatisfaction with your trade in appraisal. As a dealer, I am very used to dealing with customers everyday that expect a certain amount for their trade, due to the book value. Some customers find this information on the internet, some get it from their banker (who they also think is an expert on a car's value), and some customers base their ideal number off what their friend/family got for their vehicle. Most dealers use NADA as a guide to appraise vehicles. NADA is a national average that is provided by auto dealers. We only use this as a guide and this does not reflect the "market value" of a vehicle. Some of us discussed this on another thread, but some cars bring more than trade-in value and some bring less. On a car like your's, I don't know the market value, so I would call a VW dealer or someone who handles those type cars for their opinion.

The best way I can explain this to customers is this: The internet and all the guides are simply tools to provide information and an opinion. Rush Limbaugh has lots of opinions on politics, but does that make everything he says gospel? Certainly not. Is Rush Limbaugh considered to be very knowledgeable and somewhat of an expert by some? Sure. I know that's a totally different example, but that's what it all boils down to. I will sometimes put $500 or even thousands of dollars in a trade-in more than the last Honda dealer, because I know how that particular car sells for me. I will also occasionally miss a sale, because I am lower on the trade-in. Maybe because my used car manager had the last vehicle like that sit on his lot for 100 days and he had to wholesale it and lost a ton of money. There are lots of factors that influence our opinions. I don't want to just give you the same old rhetoric and hope this gives you some insight. Best of luck and congrats on your new E. Happy motoring.

When we bought our Elements I learned something I did not know about trades. My dodge was blue booked at over 15000 and my dad's mazda at about 14k. The salesman spent 45 minutes on the phone and I could fiqure out what the hell he was doing. Turns out he was wholesaling the trucks. He offered me 13500, and my dad was offered 13000. I wasn't really happy with this and tried for more. But this was the max he said he could get and he tried everyone within 300km. Even with the under valued trade I got a pretty good deal and more importantly I got my element in 4 days and my got his in two weeks. I have said befor that the price is secondary to the treatment and we really liked this salesman. I had always assumed that since my truck retailed used at 17900 that is what they make. Not so.

The salesman lost a little credibility the next week when I stopped by and there used lot still had my dads truck listed at 17500.

Boneheadz,

I just wanted to say that I have read almost all your posts and wanted to say thanks. Thanks for the information you provide, the opinions shared and for stressing the importance of finding the right dealer and not only price.

I work in a very competitive environment and lose deals daily to customers that don't always see this aspect of the whole sales process. I deal well with the loss of business when my price is just too high and someone else is more aggressive, so long as they buy from a good dealer. It twists me up when I lose a deal to a "shady" dealer that I know good and well is going to surprise them when they get there with a ton of extra garbage. This tactic works well, because most people won't just get up (insulted) and walk out when dealer's try this crap. They will renogiate and sometimes the dealer will drop all the fees, etc, but only after a tooth and nail fight. It boggles my mind that customers will stand for this. That they will do business with someone who deals this way. It bothers me even more, when we tell the customer about these games up front and when they get there and we are right, that they are now too humble to come back to us and say "you were right".

Anyway, I know I got off subject there, but your posts and opinions are greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work. Oh, and PS, don't be too dejected at your sales guy that still has your dad's truck on their lot. There is a real possibility that the bids that they got from the other dealers were not quite as much as they needed to put together your deal (although still below your expectations) and they might have just decided to keep his truck. They could have put a few more hundred dollars in it than the wholesalers or dealers bidding on it would give and decided to try it out for a little while. Or they might have just said, what the heck we own it cheap enough, let's try to retail it. As for the asking price, that might be a little steep, but you never know how much they spent on his truck making it ready for the lot (maybe it didn't need much, maybe it needed a lot). We are always going to use the retail number as a starting point when negotiating as well. We don't always get that number, but we have to start somewhere. This is why you are always better served to retail your trade on your own, so you are the benefactor of the extra dollars, rather than the dealer. Anyway, I am sure I am preaching to the choir here. Thanks again.

Im not sure what the wait is south of the border.....but up here in Canada you can expect to wait 2 months for delivery.You cant fault the dealers for selling a vehicle at full list if the market allows it.I work for a dealer and i got what i felt was a fair deal.Back when the miata first came out dealers here were charging $5000 over msrp and got away with it for it for the longest time.Just my 2 cents.

I think the point here is that honda dealers in general don't want to bargain and act like they are doing you a favor by selling you a car.

"If you don't like paying sticker (or over sticker), buzz off. The next guy won't complain, he'll feel lucky to get this car."

That's not an actual quote but it describes the general attitude conveyed by most honda dealers.

I drive a honda, I'm about to buy another honda. I just don't like this attitude. Especially when the other car companies are practically bending over backwards to get you to buy their vehicles. If there were another car out there that had the features of the element, I would be tempted to buy it instead.

I bought my E from honda of New Rochelle. (Westchester County, NY)
Well below sticker.
They were crying uncle by the time we left.

David was the salesman.

Having spent several years in the automobile business (years ago) I'm never uncomfortable going into price negotiations, trade talks, etc. I understand both sides of the issue and there's no such thing as a free lunch.

When I bought my E a week ago I spent 3 long hours of negotiation to get the price down from $150 OVER MSRP to $650 BELOW MSRP on a 5spd 2wd EX. That was time well spent at more than $250 per hour for my negotiating time. That said- it's a far cry from the $8500+ I got off of my 2000 Suburban in about 5 minutes of negotiatons! But that's not the end of the story.

With the newspapers SHOUTING "$3500 BELOW INVOICE" and "$4000 REBATE" etc. on other brands Honda's attitude seems arrogant UNTIL you get to the OTHER END of the deal. That's when you discover the "no free lunch" clause.

Just *TRY* selling or trading in a 2-year-old Suburban or Excursion and see what's happened to your car's value. Hint: The great deal you got 2 years ago doesn't look so great now because it's tougher than HECK to sell a 2-year-old Suburban for even a REMOTELY reasonable price when brand new ones are STILL being given away at $3500 below invoice today.

That $40,500 Suburban you STOLE for $32,000 in 2001 turns out to be worth only $19,000 2 years later because new ones are STILL $32,000 so who would pay $25,000 for a 2-year-old, out-of-warranty unit with 55,000 miles on it? Answer- NOBODY!

By the same token- someone who bought a $30,000 Honda for $29,500 2 years ago will be surprised to find it's STILL worth $19,500 today because you can't buy a new one for any less than $29,500 still. So in the end- who got the better deal? One guy "stole" the Suburban but lost $13,000 in depreciation while the Honda buyer "got stiffed" but only lost $10,000 in depreciation. There's no free lunch.

The "Entry Fee" to play the Honda game is higher but once you're in the game the annual "dues" are pretty reasonable because historically you don't have to COMPETE with the new Honda dealer when it's time to trade-in or re-sell your old Honda.

It's kind of the automtive equivalent of the old Real Estate maxim: "Location, Location, Location." Premium locations demand premium price but make up for it in appreciation/resale. Terrible locations can seem like "great deals" at the time- but not if nobody wants it when you decide to sell.

Bottom line: Yes, Honda dealers can come across as arrogant during negotations to buy, but they'll be your best friend come resale time because they're not out there slitting your throat by offering their newest models at "$3,500 BELOW INVOICE" and destroying your vehicle's resale value.

Just my opinion,

Steve

EleMentalCase -

So, what you're saying is: 'It's a good thing to not get a good deal'?

I don't think that Hondas have good resale value because a new one is so expensive. I think it's because of the quality.

Right now it's hard to sell a used vehicle at market value because interest rates are so low on new vehicles. A good friend of mine is trying to sell his 2001 civic that only has 14,000 miles on it but he's not getting any response because you can lease/buy a new vehicle so cheap with the current rates.

[quote:e8cc1a5039="getmygoat"]EleMentalCase -

So, what you're saying is: 'It's a good thing to not get a good deal'?\\.[/quote:e8cc1a5039]

GMG,

Well... no. I don't think that's what I'm saying. Maybe a simpler way to put it would be this: Most other manufacturers are giving away the farm in recent months to get product down the road. Honda hasn't been having to do that- for whatever reason. Nobody twists anyone's arm and FORCES them to buy a Honda. But enough people are willing to pay list price for Honda product that dealers (and Honda itself) haven't been forced to offer deep discounting and enormous rebates.

Call it "value pricing." Call it "no free lunch" or call it "ya makes your bed and ya lies in it." Or more likely- simply call it supply and demand- a free market economy.

If you were having a garage sale and your old golf clubs were out there labeled $200 and you had 10 people lined up willing to pay $200 for them with cash in hand but the guy at the head of the line said: "But your neighbor next door is selling HIS old golf clubs for $125 so how come you won't knock $75 bucks off of yours" you'd look at him like he was an idiot!

You would likely get into a debate with him along these lines: "Well why don't you go buy HIS golf clubs then?" And he would reply, "Because I don't LIKE his golf clubs- I like YOUR golf clubs." And the people in line behind you would clear their throats and tap their foot impatiently for you to either pay the $200 or get out of the way so they could buy the clubs.

Explain it any way you want- but when the average lot life of an Element is 13 days dealers have little motivation to sell them cheap- and you'd feel the same way in their shoes.

All of that said... after the side-impact results... we may all see Elements offered at "$50 over invoice" soon! <smile> Supply and demand at work once again!

Steve - who works hard to get a "good deal" but understands the law of supply and demand.

Well spoken ElementalCase.

The Isuzu Trooper I had took a terrible depreciation hit due to the consistent rebates and deep discounts offered by Isuzu dealers.

Not every buyer compares "2 year old v. brand new" on the same model, as you noted in your example, but for the original owner, it does make a difference in the car's overall cost to own.

I believe one of the car sites - Edmunds.com, I think - discusses depreciation together with maintenance as part of the information about what it costs to keep a car.