I'll be buying an element later this year, but I got to thinking. This would seem the perfect car to put a hybrid in? (If I want to accelerate fast I'll use a different car.) I love the idea of 35 + m.p.g. with such a functional ride. Any rumours out there for 04/05??

Saw this on another site...

http://www.hondasuv.com/main/viewtopic.php?t=628

The problem is that our Elements are like a wall (box) moving through space. In otherwords...Not very aerodynamic :cry: so not the best choice for a hybrid application. I bought my Element for it's funky vesatility and not for gas mileage. Still 24mpg on the highway is acceptable and enough for me. Hybrids tend also to be overpriced and enemic. I would like to see a V6 with 200+ horsepower and a wider footprint. It would make passsing less of an adventure. Jackson Racing may come out with a supercharger with a slight modification of it's current CRV system. :twisted: :arrow:

An Element is the perfect car for me, with the exception of gas mileage. I could never drive a car that is so nasty to the earth. (I have a Civic hatch now). It seems a hypocrisy to drive a vehicle with a tent attached while ruining our air supply...

But, how I would love to buy an Element... If only Honda were to reconsider their decision...

[quote:8e12eca3d5="Monkey'sGal"]An Element is the perfect car for me, with the exception of gas mileage. I could never drive a car that is so nasty to the earth. (I have a Civic hatch now). It seems a hypocrisy to drive a vehicle with a tent attached while ruining our air supply...

But, how I would love to buy an Element... If only Honda were to reconsider their decision...[/quote:8e12eca3d5]

The element has emissions of 5 - 8 lbs per 15000 miles. This is excellent. The mileage is also not too bad compared to most cars and trucks. The tent is not attached when driving so it does not impact mileage. I was driving a v8 and the environmental side of the element is what attracted me. If you do some research you will find that the element is very environmentally friendly.

A hybrid is a nice idea, but until the oil companies find a way to make money off of them we will have to settle for a sub standard product.

[quote:edaf4f7e42="Monkey'sGal"]An Element is the perfect car for me, with the exception of gas mileage. I could never drive a car that is so nasty to the earth. (I have a Civic hatch now). It seems a hypocrisy to drive a vehicle with a tent attached while ruining our air supply...

But, how I would love to buy an Element... If only Honda were to reconsider their decision...[/quote:edaf4f7e42]

It is a little bit of a stretch to say the Element is "nasty" to the earth and is destroying our air supply. Your Civic is nearly as nasty, relatively speaking. Vehicles, like all things in life, have tradeoffs. You could easily sell your Civic and walk if you feel that strongly about it. But, you probably have to trade off the time it takes you to get where you're going against your environmental principles.

In a free society, the market drives what people buy and use. Any alternative will cause more harm than good.

Regards,
SOL

A free society? Where is this?

Engines are constantly improving. A v8 truck of today has less emissions that a small car of the 80s. You are right there are trade offs. I do miss my truck but just can't justify it when something like the element exists.

Alternatives don't alway cause more harm than good. The hybrid is an alternative and I don't belief that it cause more harm than a standard engine. The technologie just does not meet most peoples needs yet.

[quote:2500a4f42d="boneheadz"]Engines are constantly improving. A v8 truck of today has less emissions that a small car of the 80s. [/quote:2500a4f42d]

Good point. I remember reading something a few years ago that compared Ford cars 25 years apart. It went something like 25 years ago, the most fuel-efficient Ford car got approximately 20 MPG. Now, the least fuel-efficient Ford car gets over 20 MPG.

As far as hybrids go, I believe that over the next decade or two, they will become more popular because of market forces, not because the government is forcing them down our throats.

Regards,
SOL

GM claims that there is no way it can raise the fuel economy of its light truck fleet by 1.5 mpg over three years (starting in ’05 models, going to '07). This is a CAFE mandate. And it's only asking for 22.2 mpg.
The Hummer H2 gets around 10.2 mpg real world, combined. (GM produced)
GW's allocation of 5 billion dollars for hydrogen power development is closer to the advertising budget of GM than it is the money needed to develop feasable hydrogen cars. it's sad how transparent GW Bush's enviornmental concern is.

I know I'm not really being green by driving the Element. I just think the state of things is pretty sad. People buy Expeditions, Exploders, 'Burbons, yukons, and don't seem blink at the fuel economy. i was (quietly) cheering for a gas shortage as a result of this iraqi thing, but no such luck.

Like some of you have said, it's not that the car makers can't, they just don't need to. Oh well, I am all for hybrid power in the Element. Maybe that will be what i trade-in on.

I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but the US Government should be spending 0 dollars on Hydrogen Car development. The market will force this to happen, not some pork-barrel concession to one party or another's cronies in Detroit or to the environmental lobby. They would be better off spending the money on road improvements, which is where ALL gas tax money should be going anyway.

While some of us may not like GWB, I seem to recall WJC spending a lot of money about 10 years ago on creating some sort of supercar that would be "fun to drive" and would put out no emissions. I distinctly remember the speech with all the auto execs behind him when he announced it. Yet, I don't see any results of that a decade later. But, in the same period, GM, Toyota and Honda all created hybrid cars on their own and brought them to market. 10 years from now, GWB's stupid hydrogen car program will have NO effect on auto development, except to line the pockets of a few auto companies with some extra cash stolen from the taxpayers.

Regards,
SOL

[quote:372c8a144e="Sons of Liberty"]I don't want to turn this into a political debate, but the US Government should be spending 0 dollars on Hydrogen Car development. The market will force this to happen, not some pork-barrel concession to one party or another's cronies in Detroit or to the environmental lobby. [/quote:372c8a144e]

There are factors beyond the market that should be considered here. The independence of the US economy from fossil fuels and the pollution that they cause is a highly desirable, and I would say absolutely necessary, public policy initiative. But because the US and its economy is based very much on a petroleum-based transporation system, this is a huge economic evolution that could take decades to bring about. I don't think we have decades worth of oil left and I don't think we should plan to pretty much take over the Middle East in order to secure that oil.

If we use tax dollars to create incentives for research, we can speed up that timetable, leverage the automakers into a position where they can offer the vehicles without going completely broke doing so, and have more fuel independence and cleaner air. All these things are desirable.

We have taxes to buy us things that we feel are desirable - military protection, the FAA, the National Parks, the Department of Homeland Security. A national energy policy that excludes wars to quench our thirst for oil, and includes alternative energy research and development is the only hope we have.

Seeing who we have in the White House, however, it's a hope in vain.

JMHO. YMMV.

Political discussions can be fun and informative, and this IS the Miscellanious board.....
Hellcat, I agree with you in most respects. It was an excellent post. And I know you are in the minority there in Texas with your rather liberal outlook.

SOL I don't know of the Clinton speech you speak of, but since then:
Toyota and Honda have, to date, lost money on every hybrid they have sold. But they have benefited from the publicity and inovative image. And there have been some tax breaks for people buying them.
GM (amazingly enough, I know) has a working hydrogen car in a most innovative and intelligent format, the Hy-Wire. BMW also has working hydrogen versions of the 7 series in concept form. Cost of course is huge for the concepts, but then nothing on the cars was mass-produced.
So all we need is a reason for them to get serious about production....

I know Saddam is bad, and it is good that he is gone. I just hope that next time the billions get spent on more future-thinking strategies than making sure there is cheap gas in time for summer trips. I for one would love to see generous incentives and tax...discounting...blah..blah to the buyer and maker of hydrogen cars. Or just really, really, really pricey gas.

[quote:9c90389a0a="hunterbase"]Political discussions can be fun and informative, and this IS the Miscellanious board.....
Hellcat, I agree with you in most respects. It was an excellent post. And I know you are in the minority there in Texas with your rather liberal outlook..[/quote:9c90389a0a]

Snort! You are wise, young padawan. With the Texas Democrats having to walk out of the House and exile themselves in Okla-farking-homa to make their point, a true liberal around these parts is more rare than a rooster egg!


[quote="hunterbase"]SOL I don't know of the Clinton speech you speak of, but since then:
Toyota and Honda have, to date, lost money on every hybrid they have sold. But they have benefited from the publicity and inovative image. And there have been some tax breaks for people buying them.
[quote]

If I'm remembering correctly, the first hybrid cars, in CA, were not sold but leased. The manufacturers didn't want the owners being scared away from being owners by their fear of bearing the cost of depreciation in case the whole thing didn't fly.

I think we'll see hybrids and hydrogen in the next 10 years. All the city vehicles in Dallas use Compressed Natural Gas fuel.

The debate of where to spend the money on alternative fuels can never be solved. 15 years ago or so, a large initiative started for electric powered cars. At the time, they were limited in range, not economical to produce, and not very powerful. With all the improvements over the last 15 years, they are still limited in range, not economical and not powerful. (Yes, there have been electric dragsters and such, but nothing feasible for mass production.)
Anyway, how I see it is that hybrids are real world tested alternatives to our mainstream engines. They cost a bit more, but that will be reduced when all manufacturers adopt it. Compare it to something like the automatic transmission. The first ones were not cheap to produce, but today they are the majority, and the overhead is factored into the cars' prices.
Fuel cells and other alternatives have yet to be proven. It would be a grand day to reduce our dependance on oil. But then we're dependent on coal for our hydrogen production. No matter how you slice it, anything made to run on a "fuel" has to have that fuel produced. Hybrids reduce the amount of fuel needed.
Diesels get great gas mileage, and hybrids increase efficiency. Imagine a diesel hybrid, even a larger diesel, like a straight six. High torque, high efficiency. You could stick a small diesel hybrid into a midsize car and get an easy 40-50 mpg rating. The only downfall is particulates. But no one is spending money to reduce diesel particulates....
So now that I've opened a can of worms about stuff, I'll go back to the origianl idea of this thread and say I'd like to see a Hybrid Element. Hybrids and the Element both appeal to the people that like the outdoors. (Even though the Element is selling outside its demographic.) I personally wouldn't mind spending a few grand more for a hybrid Element. And I think they could squeeze the fuel efficiency out to be more in the 30 mpg range. Plus if they make it for the Element, they have a competitor for the Ford Escape hybrid, since the Element's drivetrain is the same as the CRV's.

[quote:6eed654004="Monkey"] You could stick a small diesel hybrid into a midsize car and get an easy 40-50 mpg rating. The only downfall is particulates. But no one is spending money to reduce diesel particulates....[/quote:6eed654004]

Actually the EPA recently came out with an initiative to mandate increased diesel fuel economy and decrease diesel pollution. One of the main sectors that this will impact are agricultural and heavy-duty machines like bulldozers, but from what I heard, the diesel refiners and distributors all thought it was a good idea whose time had come.

So we'lll see about that.

You can run the element through this site. The numbers are pretty good. Not really a "nasty" vehicle.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/index.htm

you know Monkey, that diesel-hybrid idea is so logical I really wonder why it isn't already available.
The first thing that springs to mind is the difference in US and EU (and the rest of the world?) diesel. Ours is less refined and puts of more pollution, I think. But like Hellcat said, they are hoping to change that. However, a union is slowing things down. Of course.
And the beauty of a gas/electric hybrid in the Insight/Civic and Prius is that the electric (100% torque at 0 rpm) provides the grunt while the 3 cyl gas engine does the rest.
The diesel engines in many EU cars can easily get into the 50-60 mpg range. Look at the VW Lupo. It's a 3 cylinder, I believe. And the 4 and 6cyl's in other makes all get atleast 35 mpg. CAR Magazine (may favorite) even rates the (diesel) BMW 330D ahead of the gas-burning motors for the 3.

So if you dropped the 3cyl Lupo diesel with the electric plant in the Insight, you could pull stumps from the earth easier than a Ford Exploitation driver can AND you can park easily when you go to the grocery!!

I am all for diesel gas that's just like what EU gets.

http://www.nrdc.org/video/video_dp.asp?media=wm&rootname=detroit&PlayButton=Play

I don't know if you'll see Diesel from Honda or Toyota. You probably will see it from Dodge, MB, BMW and VW - but not alot of it until 2006, when low-sulfur Diesel is mandated. Until then, our US Diesel is pretty filthy: VW can't bring over anything but the most over-engineered small engines. However, they have already announced a V10 Diesel (310HP, 500+ torque!!) Touareg for late 2004 or 2005 - supposedly getting 25 MPG.

I don't think we'll be ditching our E's for it though, it should sticker for $42k.

[quote:cb7bfd28a2="boneheadz"]http://www.nrdc.org/video/video_dp.asp?media=wm&rootname=detroit&PlayButton=Play[/quote:cb7bfd28a2]


OOOooh. That's David Duchovny's voice. Oh yeah.

Hmmm....didn't think about the diesel low HP thing. I wonder if it would be a useful enough engine combo for highway driving. They usually put a turbo onto diesels to give them the HP needed for a good torque/hp curve. So if you had a diesel hybrid, would it only be able to be a power grunt, or could it cruise smoothly? Is it possible to have a turbo diesel hybrid?
I also thought that US diesel was actually cleaner than European. And they can't import the cars here because the cleaner diesel here affects things like engine seals and such. That is why a lot of EU don't import here, and will be ending them when the new US clean-burn fuels start in 2006. Not sure about that, but I think that is what I remember reading.
Either way though, diesels are more efficient. They have more torque too. Just no HP without a turbo.
Another option may be the DOD (Displacement on Demand) engine mated to an electric. So the electric and all cylinders work at acceleration, then the engine reduces the cylinders used at highway cruising. Although I was un-impressed with the estimates GM gave for their DOD engines. (5-10%)

i traded a civic hybrid for my element..
i love the element..
much more practical for everyday use


the civic hybrid was cool... not too bad for pep.. but if i want pep i drive the corvette !@!!!!
:P

anyway..
i would drive a hybrid E if it ever comes out !

the best answer I've gotten yet to the abscence of a diesel/electric hybrid is that while diesels are very fuel efficient, they still put out fairly dirty emissions. particulates, or whatever. So the use of a 3 cyl gas motor makes for a cleaner and fairly frugal hybrid.
I'm not the expert, but it does make some sense.
I wonder if the need for a turbo would just make for too many things going on in a diesel hybrid. Does a turbo sap battery power? Seems a bit overwrought to me. But cool. Like that guy's twin-charged Element.
Monkey, you got the diesel difference backwards in your last post. yeah that displacement on demand thing is pretty gimmicky. Didn't they already try that once? sure would be funny to hear the exhaust note change though.
I read somewhere that the price difference between the two fuels is greater there. Another reason why they are so popular there.
yeah VW makes some truly interesting engines. I think the V10 diesel is more effecient than 25mpg though.
And while everyone sells diesels overseas, I would think peoples bad perception of diesels here would mean the powerplants would need to start at the bottom end of the market and work up from there.
I would prob have bought a diesel Element.

What did I have wrong about diesels?

Anyway, I have been thinking more about the diesel hybrid idea. I doubt it would work without a turbo. I don't think turbos drain anything from the engine any more than an accesory belt for air or power steering. My main question is when the electric motor cuts in, or if it is off at highway speeds.

A diesel element would have been really cool by itself. It would increase the efficiency, and allow for more towing capability.

monkey, in the post before last you mentioned "I also thought that US diesel was actually cleaner than European. And they can't import the cars here because the cleaner diesel here affects things like engine seals and such. That is why a lot of EU don't import here, and will be ending them when the new US clean-burn fuels start in 2006. Not sure about that, but I think that is what I remember reading."
All i was trying to say was that US fuel is dirtier, or less refined, than it's EU counterpart. But then you just confused me with what I guess is a lack of an "s" before "ending", and that thing about clean-burning diesel here. So for what that's worth....

I am almost positive that with the honda and toyota systems, the electric is only on when extra torque is needed, like at starts. And the gas engine shuts off at stand-still, and uses an innovative starter system.
So with the hypothetical diesel hybrid, highway cruising would be difficult, while starts would be very easy. Sure would be interesting to hear from an expert here.......
I have completely used up all my knowledge on various motors, be it diesel, gas, or electric.
And I hope Honda reads these postings, as the more I think about it, I really would have taken a diesel over a gas-burner. I know they have them elsewhere....

I will see if I can find an article to what I remember reading.

Diesels are also hard to start, so I wonder if they could even follow the shutdown at standstill that the current hybrids do.

Does Honda (or Toyota) make a diesel engine?

http://www.honda.co.uk/newcars/civic5door.html
http://www.honda.co.uk/newcars/hrv3door.html
http://www.toyota.co.uk/cgi-bin/toyota/bv/frame_start.jsp?id=homepage

Here are some Honda and Toyota diesels. Toyota is noticably more hip to the diesel. Oh the middle link is the wierdest honda. what a funny little thing.

monkey, very good point on firing up diesels. they idle very slowly, right? and I know diesel fuel is prone to turning to sludge in the cold. I always thought that was why they were kept running in the winter.

Diesels don't have spark plugs, and use compression to ignite the fuel. I think under cold conditions, it is harder to get this combustion to occur. There was a time when they had (maybe still have) things called "glow plugs". (I think) They aided in this process.
But if the engine didn't shut off, what if it were to just be a small displacement one. A 3 cylinder diesel would probably get 60-70 mpg, and with the aid of electric motors, might be sufficient.

Oh well...

But if Honda has a European 1.7L Diesel, it may be possible to cram it into an Element. It powers a five door Civic, and gets 56mpg. It would be good for at least 35mpg in an Element...