I feel like a nerd. I had this idea that skid plates were something that covered the entire underside of the car. Didn't realize it could be small plates protecting various parts. Much better idea.

Anyway, I have done the search on here and unfortunately it doesn't work very well. I got 49 pages of results for skid plate, but I could only view the first one. i would love to have some protection on the underbelly of the e since i like venturing off onto mysterious paths in the alskan forrest sometimes
I did look under there to get an idea of what I might be in for in making something< BUT

In my experience the exhaust system takes the worst beating on rough roads. I don't think skid plates will do any good. Experience and good judgement are your best protection. Remember, the Element can turn around on a dime, so you can easily turn back if the going gets too rough.

paulj

Paul's done more off-roading in his E than I have...but all that said, if you want to find a skid plate for the front end of the E, try Googling 'Subaru skid plates'.
I used to drive an Outback(with several off-road excursions) and found several great companies who make skid plates for them(though I've forgotten which one I installed). Contact them and see what they can tell you...


Jesse

If you're only beating up your exhaust system while off-roading then, A) You're not pushing the limit enough and B) you're very lucky. If you tear the exhaust system off of your vehicle then you simple drive to the garage and get a new one installed. If you tear the Oil pan off of your engine block you're going to need a new motor. Skid plates are designed to protect the oil pan. Now there are some more extensive ones out there that protect more than just the oil pan. If you are serious about doing some off-roading the Skid Plate is a very wise investment even if you have to have it custom made.

But how vulnerable is the oil pan on the Element? Will the 9" tall rock that hits the oil pan hit something else first? The space between the front wheels is pretty smooth. To be honest, I'm not even sure I can identify the oil pan.

Something that might be worth adding is a length of steel pipe between the two tow loops - welded on or attached with U bolts. This might act as a 'cow catcher' taking the impact of any rock, or at least act as an 'early warning' device. The 1st generation CRV has a bar across the front, but I don't think it is very functional.

I just noticed that there is such a guard for the exhaust system welded to the suspension cross frame. It is that sheet metal fitting in line with the exhaust on the right side.

The converter has a shield below it, and that is intact on my car. The forward box of the muffler set has a dent on its bottom, and rear box has some scuffing. These aren't the lowest points, but are the most likely to hit when crossing a ridge.

Still if you are on friendly terms with a custom 4x4 fabricator, it might be worth while asking him to put the Element on his lift, and give an expert's opinion as to what useful protection might be added.

What I missed most on my latest adventures was not skid plates, but a lower 1st gear. By the time I got to the bottom of a 3500 ft drop in 3 miles (up to 23% grades) on the High Bar Road in BC, I was smelling my brakes. Fortunately there was no fire as I saw on a pickup at the bottom of 'The Hill' on the Bella Coola road.

paulj

I'm not sure what the clearence on the E is, but I can tell you that if your front supension bottoms outs (fully compressed) just as you go over the rock it will do some damage to something if there is no skidplate. Some little bar won't protect you in this kind of a situation if it has enough clearence. If you are serious about off-roading with your E get a skidplate. The first time you notice a scratch or dent in it, or even hear it hit something. You will be glad you did. If a simple little bar was all an off-road vehicle need don't you think that you would see more of them instead of skidplates? In the end it's your vehicle and if you feel comfortable with the bar or with nothing then that's your choice.

"Protection plates
These are heavy metal shields attached to the underside of the vehicle to protect those parts that are vulnerable to impact damage, USUALLY the engine sump and fuel tank. In general you will only need these plates if you spend your time BOUNCING over tree stumps and rocks.... Some vehicles require protection for their steering rods and links, or the fitting of stronger units." []The Off-road 4-wheel drive book, Jack Jackson, Haynes 1999].[my emphasis]

Note a couple of things.
- the need for vehicle appropriate protection. The geometry of the engine, drive train and suspension of the Element is quite different from the conventional 4x4 (engine behind the front axle, primary rear wheel drive, etc). At a minimum the vulnerable parts are in a different location. Different parts may be vulnerable. For example the Element's steering linkage (borrowed from the Civic) is mounted above the wheels.

- bouncing over rocks. A conventional 4x4 has a loose suspension, with lots of travel and lots of bounce. The Element has a stiff, 4 wheel independent suspension, tuned to minimize body roll on corners. The motion of the body as the wheels go over rocks and through holes will be different, in some ways better and some ways worse.

Bouncing is also much more likely if you are traveling relatively fast - fast relative to the road roughness. This would be the case if you were trying to muscle your way through a maze of rocks and ruts. Another case might occur when the rock or hole is hidden in snow and mud, which you are trying to traverse by keeping your speed up. The lack of low range does mean you can't crawl and still maintain engine speed and power, though the automatic transmission partial compensates for this for short intervals due to its torque converting.

In all these situations driver skill and experience is more important than 'skid' plates. Check out the trail on foot. Go slow when you aren't sure about clearance, and turn back when there are serious doubts.

By the way, haven't people complained about the oil drain plug being located ABOVE some cross member?

paulj

I should add that I am still learning how the suspension responds to bumps. For example, I ran the right front wheel up on a curb, and checked the fender clearance. I could barely detect a difference between that wheel and the other front one. The body had tilted enough to maintain equal clearance. There was a more noticeable reduction in clearance in opposite rear tire. This of course was a static test. In a dynamic case, I would expect more deformation in the tire and suspension, and less tilt of the body.

This body tilt helps explain the tailpipe scraping I was getting when crossing water bars from left to right. When the left front wheel was on the top of the rise on the other side of the bar, the body would be tilted, with the right rear corner closer to back side of the dip. Crossing the bar from right to left reduced the chance of dragging the tailpipe.

I still can't fully visualize why crossing the bar at an angle reduces the chance of hitting anything in the middle. In part it is because one front wheel and the opposite rear wheel are crossing the ridge at about the same time. I have not crossed anything sharp enough to lift any wheel fully off the ground (except when crossing a snow drift in my RAV4).

On an earlier thread I wrote about turning back when I encountered a checkerboard pattern of dips and rises (probably caused by alternating slippage of differentials). Having successfully traversed other obstacles since then, I'd be tempted to go back and try that road again.

paulj

I haven't had the chance to take a close look at the E personally yet so I can't really say for sure what it's off-road capabilities are. I'm talking more from person off-road experience with other vehicles. What I do know is that the E isn't designed for off-roading but niether is my sunfire but I've still taken it places that most sane people wouldn't. If you are careful and you have a spotter that you trust you can take just about any vehicle off-road if it has the clearance. If you want to turn the E into a serious off-road machine then you are going to want skidplates. For you're average "Week-end Warrior" where leaving the pavement is off-roading then skid plates aren't required. Figure out what level of off-roading you are planning on doing and out fit your vehicle from there.

To add a meaningful protection (not 'skid') plate you not only need to identify the vulnerable part, but also identify where you can mount the plate (i.e. what structural members surround the part).

As far as I can tell by just looking from the side, protecting the engine and transmission (transaxle) would require mounting a 27 by 20 inch plate to the front suspension subframe (part 1 in the figure). I don't see a way of mounting anything smaller.

Then there is the question of whether such a plate would compromise the crash worthiness of the Element. With some cars, the front crumple zone is designed such that the engine drops down in a crash. A plate bolted to the subframe may prevent such motion, especially if it was strong enough to support half the weight of the car.

http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/catimgs/13SCV01_B48.gif

paulj

Uni-body frame. Well that's a whole different ball game. The standard skid plate assemble is designed to bolt to the front section of the frame and the from bumper which is also bolted to the frame. Your typical off-road vehicle isn't designed with crumple zones as it would add too much body flex in the vehicle. That being said the E, as wonderful a vehicle as it is wasn't designed for heavy duty off-roading. If you are careful and you take your time you can take it off road.

Usually I go for the taking your time route. Last weekend I took a drive up to Denali State Park and tried to get out to a nice camping spot next to a river where it was very sandy. It seemed like I wouldn't have a real problem getting through the sand (I got out and walked it) but my lowest gear just wasn't enough so without much speed I got totally stuck. Luckily my girlfriend was able to push me back. I think with more speed I might have been ok, or might have gotten into a terrible situation. Anyway, interesting thought on the skid plate. Looking under the E I can see things that I would like to have covered but then I also see the argument of the weekend warrior thing. I rarely go into crazy situations and am very careful so I am not too likely to cause any major damage.

I was watching some of that crazy European rally racing on TV years ago, and I remember some guy with a Subaru having a carbon fiber skid plate that seemed to cover the whole underside of the car. So thats kind of what I have always thought of as a skid plate. That would cost LOTS of $$$$$$$ though Im sure.

Could you describe in more detail how the Element was stuck - were you grounded, wheels just deep enough that they were spinning without doing anything, etc? Which wheels were spinning? I haven't taken mine out on to sand yet, just rough forest service roads with an occasional puddle, and lots of waterbars.

paulj

Here's an interesting fact for you.

An M1A1 Tank can crawl it's way through 4 feet (deep) of mud yet in loose sand it will throw a track and get stuck.

Sand is not your friend

Interesting fact about the tank tracks. I can see how that could happen.

I started into the sand and with the tires deep enough to where I could still easily see under the car (plenty of clearance) the wheels locked up. Without a push I couldn't move at all and every time I tried to gas it I just stalled. I have the 5sp so I was obviously in 1st gear, but it just got totally mired. I wonder how far I could have gotten if I had had more speed. But really I don't think I could have gone as far as I needed to go. It was a little depressing for a couple of reasons. It was a killer camp spot, and the E has impressed me on every little thing I have tried to do on trails so I was surprised when I suddenly stopped. Luckily nothing broke. That was my immediate worry because of how the whole thing felt. But everything is fine.
The problem is that I will probably try it again sometime.

It sounds like the tires had enough traction, but not enough torque to push through the sand or climb out of their holes. A car with low range might have made it. I wonder where an automatic would have done any different. Landrover types on expeditions take sand ladders to get them out of periodic soft spots. Maybe you could borrow some perforated steel plating from a decomissioned military airstrip :)

paulj

Ya, maybe I'll keep a roll of chickenwire on top for special occations. Thats exactly it though. Plenty of traction, not enough torque.

It seemed like I wouldn't have a real problem getting through the sand (I got out and walked it) but my lowest gear just wasn't enough so without much speed I got totally stuck. Luckily my girlfriend was able to push me back.
Chicken wire, carbon-fiber skid plate PLUS your girlfriend, you're nearly set! :wink:

8)

Actually it's not a lack of torque that you're suffering from. It's a lack of traction. The sand is so loose it's like trying to get a drag car moving on ice. With narrow tires you're not going to get the traction that you require to drive through the sand. Look up Dune Racing on the internet and look at the size of the tires these guys use. The front tires are fairly narrow but the rear tires are quite wide. You can have all the power in the world at the rear wheel but if you can't get it to stick to the ground you're not going anywhere.

I can't see chicken wire as being a good traction aid. I've used things like Road Salt, Sand, Fireplace Ashes, Roof Shingles, Kitty Litter and Wood Boards to get me out of the ditches and snow banks.

But if lack of traction was the problem, I would expect the drive wheels to spin (or at least one). The fact that he was stalling implied that the wheels were not spinning. I got the picture of wheels trying to lift the car out of depressions in the sand, but without enough torque to do so. An automatic transmission with the torque multiplying effect of the fluid coupler might have produced wheel spin.

I agree that lack of traction is a more common problem in loose sand. The tires spin to the point that they dig themselves into the sand, and the car ends up grounded.

From what I saw on Junkyard wars, the dune buggy drive wheels are wide to provide floatation, and with enough of a 'paddle' tread to throw sand as they spin. They can spin faster than they can move the car forward, but as long as the car moves, that spin contributes to forward motion, rather than digging deeper.

However there are variations in sand, both in grain size and wettness. The ideal tire in one case is not the same as another.

paulj

Just looking back at the post I see no mention of stalling then again I may have missed it.


In regards to the Euro Road rally with the carbon fibre skid plate. What you are discribing is a belly-pan and these are usually custom made. I honest can't see it being made of carbon fibre myself. Maybe a carbon fibre composite, but I think that carbon fibre by itself isn't strong enough to with stand the stress of a road rally.

His second description, the one from July 1, talks of stalling.

Composites using resins, fiberglass, carbon fiber etc, can be made as strong as steel with a lot less weight. However the thickness of the lightest stiff construction will be greater, since it depends on a sandwich effect, with a low density core. Also it won't have the ductility of metal, which is a disadvantage in impact situations.

Perhaps the most likely thing to hit the engine would be a stick, or possibly a rock, that you drive over. Hit at the right angle the wheel could flip or tilt an object up so that is impacts parts inboard and just to the rear of the tires. I have heard an occasional bang on the underside that I attribute to rocks thrown by the wheels. These are usually small and don't do much damage. On a couple of occasions I've also had to pull out branches caught in the under carriage, especially the fuel tank cage. These weren't doing any damage, though.

paulj

Hey paulj:

Did you see last season's Junkyard Wars with the quiet guy with a VERY VERY long beard?

-brendan

No beard stands out in my memory of Junkyard Wars (even though my own beard is on the long side). After a while the participants become a blur, especially in the recent 'pick teams' format. Teams, if not individuals, stand out more in the earlier British episodes, with teams of estate agents, washing machine repairmen, and the likes. I have a better memory for the ideas that worked and didn't work.

paulj

[quote:b007982f6b=" "]No beard stands out in my memory of Junkyard Wars (even though my own beard is on the long side). After a while the participants become a blur, especially in the recent 'pick teams' format. Teams, if not individuals, stand out more in the earlier British episodes, with teams of estate agents, washing machine repairmen, and the likes. I have a better memory for the ideas that worked and didn't work.

paulj[/quote:b007982f6b]

Ok. He's an acquaintance, who's also an ex's fiancee... :)

-brendan

Check this link for pictures of how a LR Freelander was modified for rougher terrain. They don't show any attempt to protect the oil pan and such, but do show an attempt to protect the exhaust.

http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Camel_Freelanders.htm

other images of Freelander protection, including a '10mm moulded polypropylene' sump guard

http://www.safetydevices.co.uk/oldsite/4x4/freeland.html

and

http://www.cameltrophy-landrover.com/

Actually in the very first picture you see some metal wrapping up around the front A bar from under the engine. This is the Skid plate. Additionally it mentions: Viewed from the rear the underbody has some serious protective metal. So even though it can't been seen very well it is there.

As for the post about stalling the E, now that I know where to look I see it. Personally I would say that it was more driver error than a lack of torque. (nothing personal vornon kolts) I wasn't there so that's just my opinion. In that kind of a situation it is easy to stall a vehicle as you're trying to give it enough gas to get to climb out of the hole it's in but yet you don't want to give it too much as you will just spin the tires. Like I said though I wasn't there so it was hard to say what caused the stalling.

Temo

You might be right about why I kept stalling in the sand. Basically I gave it quite a bit of gas and from the amount of resistance I was getting I felt like something might break if I pushed any more. If I had hit the gas harder to try to force something to happen maybe it would have made a difference, or maybe gotten me into something worse. Luckily I had friends with me that could push which made things very easy.
I would like to revisit the situation and try a little harder to keep things moving, but not in my E. Maybe when its older and I don't care as much.
At the time I remember thinking that my old 82 Civic would probably be spinning tires and at least be getting more stuck while trying to move (I took the civic into much more sketchy terrain than the E has seen yet), which I would appreciate. I also remember being very nervous that the dry grass would catch fire under the car and wanting to get moving ASAP.

Look at it like this. If you're not getting stuck atleast once. Then you're not pushing the limits of your off-roading abilities. If you're not pushing the limits you're not having enough fun.