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Picked up Element and 3 codes 2 hours later...P0171, P0138, P2A00!

9K views 46 replies 13 participants last post by  babock 
#1 ·
So, purchased a 2003 Element yesterday and stop to put gas in it. Fill the tank up (engine was not running, cap was put back on tight) and hit the interstate again and got a CEL. GRRRRRRR

Gas mileage was terrible - Got 190 miles on a full tank :( I dumped another tank of gas in it (89 ethanol blend)

Pulled codes today...P0171, P0138, P2A00

I have been searching the forums all evening and documenting. It seems like
it could be:

1) primary 02 sensor
2) secondary 02 sensor
3) Dirty MAP sensor
4) FPR
5) Crankcase breather hose
6) Loose oil dipstick
7) Valve adjustment
8 ) Bad gasoline (ethanol content)
9) Air filter

Anyone have suggestions on where to start? Appreciate any guidance!

Thanks!
 
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#10 ·
So, an update on the situation...

This morning I decided to take a closer look at the engine bay. I was trying to chase down a vacuum leak.



First thing I find is #1 (Air chamber) is just hanging - disconnected to the intake tube. So, I am excited and put this back together.

We replaced the spark plugs with the recommended replacement NGK's as they look like they had never been replaced.

We replaced the engine air filter and the cabin air filter with wix units.

We replaced the wiper blades with some bosch replacements.

I tried to fix the faulty seat belt buckle error light, but no luck. I may try and take it to the dealer and see if Honda will cover it for free since its related to the seat belt. Worth a shot, right?

Also, we did a cold compression test - engine was cold and not been started - It read about 120 psi across all 4. I know cold tests are pointless, but just did it t to see if any one cylinder read differently than the other...indicating a valve issue.

Anyways, we reset the codes using a scanner and go for a long drive - almost 30 miles, no codes, nothing!

I am excited. But....

About the 2nd time I shut it off and turned it back on, CEL comes on again!!!!

:twisted::-o:?

Same 3 codes!!!!

So, yep, time to try the 02 sensors....Thanks, parishM
 
#15 · (Edited)
> no need to adjust valve lash
Based on what? Did he remove the valve cover and measure the clearances or just look into a crystal ball?

I don't see that you posted how many miles are on the car. Do you have maintenance records from the previous owner? If you don't know the number of miles since the valves were last adjusted, you should go ahead and do it. Even if it's not the cause of you present troubles, there's no sense in waiting and burning a valve.
 
#20 ·
It has 170K on it - I had a full carfax with several records but mainly oil changes and such.

I called the last 2 Honda dealers it was in to and looks like only thing they did was replace the airbags - guessing Takata recall related? So. I have no proof that valve adjustment been done before :(

This guy is an ex-honda dealer employee and has been my go to guy for years.

He is obstinate sometimes - he won't put any non-OEM parts on the car ever which I can deal with.

But he says valves are loud, these motors are just louder in nature and that he changed the oil and that should help.

He also said he has no idea why CEL keeps coming back on and the 02 sensors checked out fine. I was shocked that he didn't want to work on it. I asked him point blank what I should do next - He said "Well, take it to Honda and then can tell you when they replace your belt buckle!"

I am guessing the only way of telling a burned valve is a compression/leakdown test, right?

So, I scheduled a meeting with honda tomorrow. They said they will do multi-point inspection and look at the codes and such! Said they will do valve adjustment if needed. Probably try and gouge me with a list of issues. But, I am comfortable doing stuff under it, just not digging past valve cover much.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I am guessing the only way of telling a burned valve is a compression/leakdown test, right?
If you had a burned valve, you'd know it—the car would run like crap. The purpose of a valve adjustment is to prevent a burned valve (and optimize performance). Still might not be related to your error code, of course.

Meanwhile, Oatmea1 has received a yellow card for ad hominem comments.
 
#25 ·
and exactly what is your automotive background experience ?

i am ASE certified Master Tech w/L1 and 30+ yrs experience

he already stated he took it to his regular Honda guy, it it
were any of those simple fixes he probably would have found
it ! he said he found and fixed a major vacuum leak and replaced
the air filter and the same exact three 02 codes came back.

there are a few items on that list other than the Lambda that
could cause false readings resulting in a MIL, however the
P0138 combined with the P2A00 plus the fact that all three
codes came back indicates it's probably a failed Lambda or
even a bad ECM.
 
#26 ·
Woah, woah - let's not call each other names and bicker over something small like this, per se.

Let me explain of the list I posted originally, what I have done so far - maybe, that will help.

These are the things I did:

3) Dirty MAP sensor - inspected this, pretty clean.
5) Crankcase breather hose - Inspected this, no holes or tears. Seems fine.
6) Loose oil dipstick - I checked this already, no issues. O-rings seem fine!
8 ) Bad gasoline - It has been thru at least 1 tank of gas and 2 tanks in total since the light popped up. My mpg is horrid right now - 90 to 100 miles per tank. I tried 87 non-ethanol and 91 non-ethanol.
9) Air filter - Put a new Wix one in. I updated on page 2, I think.
10) New spark plugs - I put in new NGK's. Coil packs seemed fine.

What's left to do:
1) primary 02 sensor - cheaper than valve adjustment
2) secondary 02 sensor - cheaper than valve adjustment
4) FPR - I didn't look into this, reading that FPR failure seldom happen
7) Valve adjustment - Wanted mechanic to do this as I am nervous messing with the head. As mentioned before, I am comfortable doing things outside the engine and suspension. I will probably have Honda do this. Be expensive!

I could do a fuel filter as well, I suppose.
 
#29 ·
Got it, just making sure. Thanks for all the advice. The 02's shipped today, will be here friday. Hopefully, get them on Sunday, maybe?

Drop the ole gal at Honda tomorrow for the seat belt buckle recall, hopefully I don't have to shell out the cash for that fix...:oops:
 
#32 ·
Update from Honda dealer:

They believed that the code was due to tight valves. All exhaust valves were extremely tight! They have adjusted the valves. But, the code remains.

They did a fuel test. Said seeing 17% alcohol. They think this could be the reason why. I don't buy this. I have ran 2 different tanks of gas. I told them this. They said to try again and see. They said if the codes still do not go away, I will need the air fuel ratio sensor replaced (guessing 02 sensor)?

So, going to try the gas thing tonight! Sensors be here tomorrow.

Also, the motor does "clack" a lot at cold start, but does not idle badly etc. Oil change did help become quieter quicker.

Thank you all, I appreciate you master mechanics jumping in and helping this sap out...

They did order a seat belt buckle to replace under warranty! Silver lining in all this... :grin:
 
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