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Rear Brakes

19K views 51 replies 33 participants last post by  elementally fit 
#1 · (Edited)
Has anyone had or noted premature wear on the rear disc brakes?

I drive a 2003 EX all wheel disc brakes. Just over 20,000 miles.
I'm not an aggressive driver or a heavy brake user. I don't ride the brakes.

Yet, at my last oil change and maintenance check I was informed that the
rear disc brakes had only 20% of the brake pad remaining. ??? The front brakes are fine.

I have never had this early wear on any other vehicle I've owned.

Has anyone had or noted premature wear on the rear disc brakes of
a Honda vehicle? Element???

Comments welcomed,
MD
 
#2 ·
>I was informed that the rear disc brakes had only 20% of the brake pad remaining.

I very, very seriously doubt the "20%".

Was this a dealer service writer telling you this? We had reports last year of dealership service departments asserting high levels of brake wear that were, frankly, complete fiction (or possibly even complete friction). It is an attempt to scare you into to performing unnecessary service work, which they - of course - will charge you the full nickel for.

If you remain concerned, find an independent mechanic, or at least an independent brake servicer such as CarX or Midas. They usually inspect for free.

Please report back!
 
#4 ·
uberhubris said:
i haven't had the brakes checked yet, but recently my element's brakes seem to scrape the first time i drive/brake each day. has anyone experienced this themselves and/or have had it remedied?
This is normal and mentioned in the owner's manual. Surface rust builds up on the rotors in an amazingly short time, then gets wiped off the first time you brake. Applies to all disc brakes, but for some reason the sound is quite noticeable on the E.
 
#5 ·
You could save time and $ and just pull off a rear wheel and look.
:roll:
 
#6 ·
ramblerdan said:
This is normal and mentioned in the owner's manual. Surface rust builds up on the rotors in an amazingly short time, then gets wiped off the first time you brake. Applies to all disc brakes, but for some reason the sound is quite noticeable on the E.
What Else is getting rusted quickly? Anybody else have problems with rust on the bottom latches for the rear doors?
 
#16 ·
Hi

I bought a used '03 here in Ohio. Vehicle has been here since new. In general the only rust I could find was on those latches. Prior to purchase I removed the door jamb trim expecting to see more rust, but it was only the latches. I have since removed them, cleaned away the rust with a wire brush and then painted them black with Rust-O-Leum. They look pretty good.
 
#7 ·
If your rear brakes are indeed at 20%, sounds like the bias is adjusted way out. Meaning either your rears are always rubbing evevn when coasting, or they are just coming on before the fronts when you depress the brake pedal. Try this next time you have been driving for a while, but not using the brakes a whole lot. Get out and put your hand near the rear brake, then the front. Do the rears have a lot of heat coming off them? This would lead me to think they are dragging or if they are much hotter than the fronts, they might be coming on sooner.
Josh
 
#8 ·
How often do you use the Parking/Emergency brake? I would pull the brake on HARD, then release it a few times. It is entirely possible the Emergency/Parking brake has been dragging. By doing this you could free up the cable and reset the parking brake at the caliper.

As for the noises the brakes make when first using them in the morning... it is surface rust that forms VERY fast on the rotors in what seems like a few hours. Hit the brakes a few times and the noise will go away, but will come back the next time the E sits for a little while.



 
#9 ·
spdrcr5 said:
...As for the noises the brakes make when first using them in the morning... it is surface rust that forms VERY fast on the rotors in what seems like a few hours. Hit the brakes a few times and the noise will go away, but will come back the next time the E sits for a little while.
Thanks all for the responses on this topic - I've been wondering this myself for quite some time, and I did figure it was normal buildup since it went away after I applied the brakes a few times... but it's good to hear I'm not the only one experiencing this! You all just saved me a trip to the Honda dealership. :)

LEGO
 
#10 ·
I haven't looked too closely, but I think the parking brake doesn't use the rear pads, it has it's own pads.

Well, if something is wrong, 20% would happen.

The rears would wear out faster normally on a honda vehicle, weird, huh?

But new pads will be about 10 mm from the backing plate to the surface.

You can see your rear brake pads with alloy wheels through the openings in the wheel. Take a look.
 
#11 ·
Lars... you are 100% correct. I just pulled out my manual and my mind was just blown away...

The E has Rear Disc Brakes... but it also has Rear DRUM Parking Brakes as well! Now, who here thinks Honda could have saved quite a few pounds if they just used the calipers as the parking brakes?

Since I was already in the chapter on brakes here is what it says about rapid brake pad wear:

There are things to do, but basically you need to jack the E up and see if when you spin the wheel by hand (engine should be running) and see if there is any drag in the wheels. If no look somewhere else; if yes try then turn the engine off and pump the brakes until the vacuum is out of the booster. Now spin the wheels again, are the brakes dragging now? If yes... replace the brake booster. Eventually going through this it could be any of the following items:

Brake Booster
Brake Pedal position switch adjustment and pedal free play
Master Cylinder
Caliper(s) could need rebuilding
Master Cylinder cap seal
If all of the above check out fine, then the ABS Modulator has gone bad.



 
#12 ·
Brakes...anybody?

Has anybody here ever had trouble with their back brake pads? I baught my E with 9 miles on it july 16 2007. Exactly 1 year later, to the day, and less than 20,000 miles, I had to replace the pads. Now, I know its not the E-brake (get it... "E" brake.....:twisted:) because they have the inner drum. The fronts are perfect, and the rear drivers side were perfect, but the rear passange side was worn to bare metal. Slides were not stuck either-- anybody else have this problem? and how do I cure it?
 
#14 ·
I was pumping gas into my E just last week when I looked down at my left rear wheel and notices a heavy coating of black dust covering it. I went directly to my mechanic and he used a heat sensor gun on the wheels. The left rear was 320 degrees and all the others were around 140. He pulled the rear wheels and sure enough. Both side were amost to metal. I have 37,000 miles on my E. I'm now going to have him lube the "slides" every time he does a tire rotation just to be on the safe side.
Oh, and yes. I do think it's premature seeing our 2006 Camry has 70,000 miles and still doesn't need brakes. But then again. That has rear drums. Not discs.

D
 
#15 ·
Both side were amost to metal.
Do you mean the pads on both sides of the left rear rotor, or the pads on both rear wheels?

If a pad on one side of the rotor is worn significantly more than its mate, the caliper isn't floating as it should, and the pins need to be lubricated—a sensible precaution in any case.

If the pads on both sides of the caliper are pretty even but almost down to metal, while the pads on the opposite wheel still have lots of life left, either the caliper is sticking or there's something else wrong in the hydraulics (see Larry's post above).
 
#18 ·
The last oil change I had on May 23, the local dealer informed me that I had 8MM front and 7MM remaining on the rear, (now, probably down 7 and 6 respectively), and I only had about 13,000 clicks at the time.

However, given the constant, unceasing stop and crawl driving her in central Screw Jersey, I wasn't surprised. I'm fully expecting to replace them shortly, but not happy about it. I didn't expect to until at least 45,000.

I thought about going to a kevlar or other high-perf pad, but I have no idea how that will effect braking, traction/stability control or the ABS.

Probably have to just eat it and replace the factory pads.
 
#20 ·
I just checked my gas milage since I had the rear brakes replaced. 50/50 city/highway combined driving netted me 26 mpg. Up from the 18 - 22 mpg I was getting. I'll make sure I have the back brakes serviced regularly with the gas prices as the are.

:)

D
 
#23 · (Edited)
rear disc brakes SUCK and so, seemingly, does my dealer's outlook

I bought my E because I wanted highly reliable, highly economical (buying + fuel + reliability
costs).

I basically am thrilled with the vehicle.

BUT at 23,500 +/- miles, after giving my 2007 5 speed AWD E a pretty good life (non-agressive driving,
following maintenance recommendations) I have a horrid metal-on-metal sound coming from the right
rear brake, with an only slightly less grotesque sound effect from the left rear brake.

Classic symptoms of a stuck caliper.

I do not brake hard or often, preferring to let off the gas in anticipation of needing to slow, and/ or downshifting to decelerate, so my brakes have a pretty gentle life.

I've made an appointment with the dealer where I bought it to get it solved on Thursday. But the
dealer's shop is already giving me razmattazz about having not brought it to them to have a 15,000 mile going-through, and claiming that it's a "wear item" that I need to pay for because I have not had them do all the service.

I change my own oil & do all other recommended maintenance, pretty methodically, according to the maintenance minder, and whenever I do, I spend 15+ minutes on my back on a creeper under the whole vehicle, up on jack stands, checking all visible nooks and crannies, to make sure it all looks in order.

As just one example of how I drive and maintain vehicles, I got 82,000+ miles out of a 1991 Ford
Ranger (when I traded it) with NO brake troubles and lots of OEM brake pad & shoe life left, judging from
how all the brakes looked and worked when I sold it.

I expect Hondas to be at least as trouble-free and un-costly to own and maintain as a Ford pickup...

I've almost never needed to do rear brakes on any other vehicle I've owned, and can't believe I'm faced
with a possible multi -- $100 cost to deal with rear brakes on a well-cared for and generally-gently-driven Element that's less than a year and a half old.

The owner's manual refers to "inspecting" brakes at 15,000. I did that whenever I've rotated my own
tires (by the book), and also whenever I have been under the vehicle to do any other maintenance.

I invite and appreciate any suggestions on how to repel this idiocy that suggests that I should expect metal-on-metal grinding from my rear brakes, and pay to fix it, at 23,500 miles and a year and a half of ownership.

with the way that ALL other major vehicle systems have improved in reliability and ease/ cost of
maintenance in the last several decades, I refuse to accept that rear brakes should fail, expensively, at
such a short interval of mileage and usage-- when the old rear drum brakes would often go a lot longer with no trouble or cost.

I don't consider rear disc brakes an "improvement" over the old drums that shielded themselves from road crud if this is what the discs "have to offer"

if Honda can't design and install a shield to keep road grit out, then they oughta be buying me and others with this problem the new parts to keep our rear brakes OK

Can folks please offer suggestions on how to resist this crap from the dealer?
 
#24 · (Edited)
Brakes are one of those things that we all use differently. Some people have good life from the pads others do not!

I am one of the people that uses up pads more often than others. There is also the tendency of the rear brake tray to rust. I have to lube mine twice a year. The right rear caliper on my E seems prone to heavy rust. The same parts on the wife's E show no signs of freezing up.

Is it the way we use the brakes, or our driving style? Who knows. It's just the way it is.

All cars do not have the same bias ( Front/Rear ) or load ( weight ) front rear. So there is no possible way to compare one make of car directly to another in terms of longevity of a specific part. Suffice it to say, that you know know that YOU require more frequent service of this part than others. I find that as long as I keep the slider's lubed, the pads last well. But then again, I tend to change them with just under 1/2 of the pads service life still remaining.

Having had several types of cars and trucks over the past 50 years. I can tell you that some use pads fast for me, and others don't. My ford truck F-250 used them at a horrendous rate. It usually also required rotors as well. They had the bad habit of warping to the point that they could not be turned. On the other hand I had a 1970 Trans-Am, that I ran on the track. The brakes outlasted several other types of cars in that kind of heavy use. On the same track, I had to change the pads on my Z-28 ( 1969 302cid ) every other race. and it was lighter than the Trans-Am by almost 990 Lbs. Go figure. Both Made By GM.


Do the job yourself and save some money.

Dom
 
#25 ·
Sorry I can't offer any advice on how to address this with your dealer. There are some parts of automobiles I put into the "unpredictable" category. Irregardless of make or model. I put the brakes in that category. Dom5 summed it up well.
I have a sticking caliper on the passenger rear right now on my E at 33000. Not surprised at all. If it had happened at 20000 I would not have been surprised either. Lets see... rain, salt, dirt, mud, freezing, panic stops, etc etc

I think brake issues at 23k not being wear and tear will be a tough sell with the dealer. Its a nebulous area.

Good luck though. Maybe if you push hard enough they will cut some discount.
 
#26 ·
Just like Dom.five said it depends on the user and the environment the car is in. I have a 03 with almost 65000 miles on it with the original brakes all around but others have posted about getting less then 14000 on theirs. Its not hard to replace the rear brakes yourself and if you do use a synthetic lube for the sliders and pins.
 
#27 ·
I don't buy the idea that it's _EVER_ OK for rear brakes to fail this bad, this soon

thanks for the suggestions--

but basically, I return to the fact that, apparently, in anything other than sheltered suburban driving conditions, rear disc brakes apparently suck, in terms of their reliability, compared to rear drums

which is basically a scam in a vehicle marketed and sold with AWD for harder climates and driving conditions.

here's what I have owned and/ or regularly driven over the years, in sequence--

77 chevy caprice wagon- front discs, rear drums, never needed brakes touched or even looked at, front or back, for 85k. I was a teen, and drove it like a teen, and it never minded a bit. best car I have ever owned and driven, and if I could get the same thing, low mileage, no rust, now, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. V8 with tons of power and room and comfort for passengers and stuff that got between 17-19mpg!!!

63 Plymouth Valiant. 200+k miles on it (odometer had broken with 212k) with bird turds etched into the paint. Looked worse than AWFUL. Worked great. Built the top end of the motor and intake system and drag raced it at stoplights in the slums of Asbury Park NJ when I was an itchy teen. Drums front and back, no power brakes. Took a lot of foot on the pedal to make the thing stop, but it always stopped, with no problems, and no need, ever, for one dollar or one minute to make those crude drum brakes do their basic job.

77 chevy Vega, stock, the car my grandmother bequeathed to me with only 8500 miles (all garaged little ol lady miles) on it, basically, the whole car sucked to its core, and I couldn't wait to get rid of it; I don't think I put 1500 miles on it before I sent it down the road, so no basic sense on whether its brakes sucked as badly as all the other parts that pathetically- and truly- fell apart around me, rapidly, as I drove it.

86 mazda 323- flawless factory front discs and rear drums for 8 years & 45k; never needed to even think of them

91 ford ranger 2wd, front discs, rear drums, flawless factory brakes for 82k, living a life where I stupidly lived at ends of remote largely unmaintained Vermont roads with a 2wd truck where I needed to climb under the truck and put tire chains on to even stand a remote chance of getting home after work during the winter. Road conditions were so bad that my rocker panels were blasted down to bare steel after one winter, just from the abrasive crud all around me as I tried to get back and forth. But the brakes never needed a moment of TLC for 82k.

95 toyota pre-Tacoma 4x4- front discs, rear drums, flawless brakes for 82k, same driving and living conditions as the Ford Ranger, only I didn't have to climb under the truck to put tire chains on it.

moved to a place where I live on a well maintained paved road...

99 ford F250 super duty, rear discs sh___t the proverbial bed at 9800 miles- is this what you call "super duty?" After the hubs and transfer case also sh___t the proverbial bed at 21,000, I sent it packin, and have henceforth referred to it as the SuperDooDoo

'02 Toyota Tacoma Quad Cab. burned gas like it thought it was a full size (16 mpg city or highway in a little V6 truck with anemic acceleration is a really sad and bad joke), but its front discs and rear drums were flawless for 75 k

'06 Dodge Cummins 2500 4x4. most flawless vehicle I've ever owned, except I had the bad luck to buy a diesel right as the big oil companies decided to hose diesel owners, despite the fact that diesel is easier and cheaper to refine than gasoline. no problems with brakes for the 15 k I owned it, and I worked it WAY harder than any vehicle I owned before or since (towing and hauling some pretty big stuff), 'cause I knew it was up to it, and decided to put it to use 'cause I had it and it was built for it.

07 Element. Great vehicle, and I've generally pampered it a lot more than anything else I have owned because it's just really endearing and lovably functional, even if not in a heavy-duty way. BUT if its rear brakes go toes up this easily and often, with much lighter driving, road conditions, and use than most other vehicles I've owned, then that, to me, with reference to the points of comparison above, points, in NEON lights, to bad design and corner-cutting on the design and manufacture of the rear brakes.
 
#29 ·
I must say I've had more trouble with disks by far than I ever had with drums. I'm sure that on a race car where the thing is torn down every ride they are fine but not for real people. Now to intercept those who are going start with "well I drove my Spacemobile 3000 for NNNNNNN miles on one set..." I just say dandy for you; nobody complains about the ones that work correctly. I had a Honda Civic 4WD wagon from which I got 80k + on the original drums living on a gravel road in Iowa. In 205k mi. I went thru several (but a reasonable number) of disk pads for the front but at 23k (or 14k or whatever) it is not reasonable to expect to be grinding up metal in any case, particularly for the rear which does a smaller fraction of the braking, and particularly under the conditions you describe. It is a bad design. Not that there are no redeeming qualities but the required tolerances for proper function are simply not reasonable for the environment. Some are easier to service but you'll do it more often. I have always done my own brakes and I'm not going to publish my auto brag list but I agree with your sentiment about disks.
 
#30 ·
my dealer has really redeemed themselves, but rear discs and Honda???

My dealer behaved like a class act.

they got my car in quick, and solved the problem. right rear was indeed jammed up (more the pads than the caliper) and the pads and rotor were lost causes; left rear was less drastic, but headed the same way

dealer says that honda says that this is a wear item

I say BS- and it's pretty clear from the body language of the dealer's service department, who admit that they've seen honda rear drum brakes go 200+ k with the original shoes & drums

I told the dealer that I do not really want to put them in the middle if I can help it, and if I pay the bill, no one has any incentive to work with me to have anyone other than me pay the bill, so I said that I'd call Honda next week--

any suggestions on how to get Honda to step up and make good on this failure that should never have happened?

thanks
 
#32 ·
clearly you have gotten a lemon.


My dealer behaved like a class act.

they got my car in quick, and solved the problem. right rear was indeed jammed up (more the pads than the caliper) and the pads and rotor were lost causes; left rear was less drastic, but headed the same way

dealer says that honda says that this is a wear item

I say BS- and it's pretty clear from the body language of the dealer's service department, who admit that they've seen honda rear drum brakes go 200+ k with the original shoes & drums

I told the dealer that I do not really want to put them in the middle if I can help it, and if I pay the bill, no one has any incentive to work with me to have anyone other than me pay the bill, so I said that I'd call Honda next week--

any suggestions on how to get Honda to step up and make good on this failure that should never have happened?

thanks
 

Attachments

#31 ·
Disk brakes that suck

I've had a lot of vehicles since the 70's, and so far the disk brakes on the FoMoCo have performed the worst for me. Read on..

'65 Merc Comet - drum brakes, gave it a brake job.
'69 Javelin - drum brakes, no problems.
'72 Jeep commando - drum brakes in rear got corroded wheel cylinders
'74 Javelin AMX - Still have it, fluid changes, no brake problems
'80 Chevy LUV - no brake problems
'83 Ranger that had an appetite for front calipers
'86 Taurus/Sable wagon that had sticking caliper problems
'91 Lincoln conti - no problems
'94 Ranger 4WD - no problems with brakes, problems with everything else
'96 Lincoln conti - no problems
'95 Explorer - no problems
'99 Expedition - front/rear pads, E-brake shoes, brakes rusted like crazy
'99 Saturn SL2 - no problems
'03 Lincoln conti - no problems
97 E-350 Camper that has had sticking caliper problems. The calipers rust like a banshee. Prolly not driven enough to keep it loosened up
'03 CRV - fluid changed, no problems
'05 E - fluid changed, no problems
'08 CRV to new

We had a 2003 CRV that went 60K without a brake change. My E has 29K and has had no brake problems.

I believe the key is to change the fluid every 3 years, just like the service booklet says. Both the CRV and the E have had fluid changes. Either DIY or pay the dealer to do it. It's money saved in the long run.

If you live in a snow belt/road salt state, an occasional cleaning and lube of the caliper slides may be in order to keep them free as well.

Keep motoring!
 
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