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Mushy Brakes

10K views 36 replies 23 participants last post by  dklugnut 
#1 ·
Greetings:

My first post. This is probably the best forum I have seen. It utlimately helped my buy me Element.

I just took my Element in for the first oil change and to get some service on the brakes. I had to do an emergency stop and it took a while to do. Just prior to that I noticed that I needed to pump the brakes in order to have them grab really well. I am comparing the braking in the Element to that in an '07 CRV. The dealer bled the brakes and it is much better, but I can still pump the brakes and get better reaction, but the brakes are nowhere as good as the CRV. Any ideas?

Thanks.
 
#2 ·
First off let me say I have had no issues with the E in that respect.

There are several things that can cause that. If they were not properly bled they will still have air in the system that will cause that condition.

The other thing that will have the same symptoms, Is the vacuum booster/ master cylinder.

You have an 07 so any repair will be covered. Bring it back to the dealer.

Please post the results!

Dom
 
#3 ·
To Dom.five

I'm of the understanding that 12,000 miles or 1 year is the brake warranty on an '07 E or any other one...Why do you believe the service would be covered for the guy with the mushy brakes??? I was just told today by a HONDA district guy to forget about any warranty service on the issue I had with corrosion wrecking my rear brakes at 30K. Is there a trick here I need to understand?
 
#4 ·
I'm of the understanding that 12,000 miles or 1 year is the brake warranty on an '07 E or any other one...
That is prolly for the pad wear. Normally brake pads are considered "wear items" and don't fall under the bumper to bumper warranty.

Normal warranty is 3years 36k miles, unless they've changed it since '04.



I think the mushyness is air or water in the system. A re-bleed is in order. In can take several trys in some cases.
 
#5 ·
My wife also have a 07 CR-V. 07 CR-V does have better brake modulation than my 09 E.

Here are spec for both 2009 CR-V EX-L vs E EX. CR-V has wider tires, bigger brakes, & lighter curb weight, they all help brake faster.

2009 CR-V EX-L AWD Auto
Tire Width: 225
brake size inch F/R: 11.7 / 12.0
Curb Weight lb: 3549

2009 E EX AWD Auto
Tire Width: 215
brake size inch F/R: 11.1 / 11.1
Curb Weight lb: 3648
 
#7 ·
My 08 developed a mushy brake pedal at about 6K miles. They replaced the master cylinder under warranty. I've had m/c go out in cars before so I wasn't really convinced that was it, I thought it probably needed to be bled correctly, but it firmed up the pedal.

I read on this board Honda came out with a new bleed procedure, basically cycle the abs modulater while bleeding with an obd II or you can bleed them, go to a parking lot active the ABS and rebleed. Sounded like too much work to me for a car under warranty so I let them deal with it.
 
#9 ·
Interesting to see these postings. I just bought an '07 a few weeks ago (18K miles), and the brakes are very mushy. At first I thought it was just me getting used to a different vehicle, but have since had a couple of friends drive it, and they definitely agree that the brakes are not right.
Hoping this is an issue that will be covered under warranty!
 
#11 ·
I went to the dealer today and the tech drove the car about 100 feet and said: "these brakes are mushy". He went in the shop to do "research" and came back with a Honda Service Advisory with a whole list of Vin numbers. I have an appointment tomorrow for a vsa device to be replaced. There is air leaking into the system. I was able to bring the pedal up by agressive pumping..not something you would expect on a 1 year old car with 10,000 miles.

Should I insist that the brake fluid be totally replaced...I would think with air in the system it might be contaminated with moisture. I think I read somewhere that brake fluid was capable of collecting water....some term like hydroscopic?

I'll post tomorrow after the work is done.
 
#13 ·
Here is what my service invoice says:

Customer states brakes seem Spongy
Check and advise
Check and Diagnosis verified concern
Found Bulletin 07-045 air in system soft peddle (sic)
Remove and replace brake modulator and rebleed system and
Test drive--normal operation at this time.

I dropped the car off at 8 am and it was ready at 10:30

Part:577110-SCV-A52 Modulator 57110

No charge, warranty.

The brakes are back to normal but I'm going to pay close attention.
 
#14 ·
List price on the modulator is $979. Majestic Honda sells it for $685. Labor time scheduled at 1.5 hours. Bears paying close attention before your warranty has gone.
 
#15 ·
I experienced all the symptoms expressed in this thread as well as a couple others that dealt with mushy brakes on the 2007 element. My repair history replaced all the pieces and parts of the brake system twice and was stating on the third go-round when it was discovered that Honda just added the Element to TSB 07-045. That TSB started with the Accord mushy brake problem, was joined by the Odyssey, and now the Element. The FP-Number you need is 57110-SCV-A72, not A52 as reported earlier. It is the brake modulator 9125782.

Believe me, you will notice a world of difference! Finally a set of brakes I can rely on. No more pumping and wondering if I would stop in time. The interesting part is that it took nearly a year to sort out this problem, and secondly, it is not a recall. I view this as a safety issue.

Anyhow, get the part. I have had it installed for two weeks and my brakes have had a good, constant, strong peddle ever since.
 
#16 ·
"The FP-Number you need is 57110-SCV-A72, not A52 as reported earlier. It is the brake modulator 9125782."

OK-so I went back and looked at my service record...they repaired mine with the 57110-SCV-A52 (as mentioned in earlier post). So far the brakes are better (still not what I was accustomed to on other vehicles), so should I return to the dealership and ask for the A72 replacement, or wait it out?
 
#17 · (Edited)
Where can I go to find this TSB in its entirety? NHTSA website does not list Bulletin 07-045 for a 2007 Element. :confused:

Also, I have wondered about the brakes on my 07 since I purchased it about 6 months ago. I half assumed it was due to the much added weight, different tires, and SUV rather than sports car as compared to my previous vehicle (Prelude). Also, being a "Honda Certified" pre-owned vehicle, I assumed they would check these things before selling it. How do I know if i'm just accustomed to tighter brakes, or if this is an issue. Are there any standard distances for pedal height at top and bottom of stroke? Something I can quantify?

I guess my other option is to bleed the brakes as I planned on doing, and see if I notice a difference.
 
#20 ·
As luck would have it the mushy pedal on mine has returned so the first fix of m/c replacement and bleed seems to have worked only temporarily - just a bleed probably would have done the same thing to mask the problem. My serial number falls within the range for an '08 but the TSB VIN numbers for '08 are all automatic and I have a manual (5J6YH18 is auto, ...H17 is a manual). Time to take make an appointment.
 
#21 ·
Reply to Mushy Brakes

About my 5th comment on this particular problem. Also have an 07, mine's an SC, with 33K miles on it now. (Had it 2 months).
As the 2nd owner, found it needed total rear axle brakes done in second week...due to locked up outboard left pad...Did brakes, complete with rotor turning and pads. BUT IT ALSO HAS MUSHY BRAKES...
FROM MY RECENT EXPERIENCE, DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING FROM HONDA! They've shut me down on 3 occasions now, and I really work on these kinds of issues hard... Letters to Torrance CA., Photos, and personal meeting with the dealer reps got me nothing. They SUCK at customer relations as far as I'm concerned. I believe a CLASS ACTION SUIT might be in order to make them aware of their WARRANTY OBLIGATIONS.

Basically, BRAKES are NOT COVERED under the 36K mile warranty, in terms of "wear" and/or "user related issues". BS!!!!! However, relating to your issue - MUSHY BRAKES, I'm researching this. I've had the bleeding done; No results. I'm suspecting an ABS related issue, including AIR in there. Again, dealer (HONDA) won't touch it unless I pay them $79.99 for their "
"diagnostic". I have no faith in HONDA, so I'll have that done elsewhere.
Good Luck.
 
#22 · (Edited by Moderator)
mushy brakes...success!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

T h a n k s - especially to "Soapy" for his/her persistence at the dealer level and getting this VSA modulator thing cleared up, I now have my 'o7 in the shop for a total bleeding (yes - that's important!!!) . New modulator, (part no 577110 SCV A52, modulator 57110), per a hidden - from - sight "failed part" issue of a TSA, being installed at total warranty cost. Honda should be ashamed of themselves for trying to hide it...Torrance CA. customer service people said there were absolutely no reports! Lies, lies lies. $180 (of my money) later, and a set of rears caused by this thing. I'm not done with Honda yet...

Perhaps they shoud read/join the Element Owners Club forum???

Thanks again Soapy! Yea team!!!
 
#23 ·
Just wanted to add that my VSA modulator replacement (done twice), was completely covered under warranty, no questions asked. Guess I should at least be thankful for that part.
Brakes still seem to be much better, although not perfect, 2 weeks after the repair. I still fell like something is not quite right, though...hard to explain. I almost feel like acceleration is often more difficult....kind of like I'm meeting some resistance. Does that make any sense?
 
#24 · (Edited)
Brake Problems, continued...MUSHY BRAKES

Hey - BIG NEWS ABOUT THOSE WITH THE MUSHY BRAKES PROBLEMS...

Hot off the telephone today 11AM, April 14, 2009...

Honda Dealer in Southfield MI (Who presently has my ELEMENT for a MODULATOR install...) just called me to tell me the following:

" Our technician has never seen a Brake Modulator ( Pt. No. 9125782 ) Fail by itself...Want's to install new MASTER CYLINDER too".

I said, Well, if you have to.....HAHAHAHA

This is all a result of the searching done on the part of forum member who supplied the FP # and TSB # in earlier threads...Thanks again.
SO, WARNING...
Those of you out there that think the job is done with just bleeding, or even a new Modulator, beware. DEMAND ALL YOU CAN FROM HONDA! They're HIDING THIS DEFECT! I've made my NHTSA complaint...you should too! Good Luck.
 
#25 ·
When I was test driving 09 E in Feb 09, the 1st E I drove, in 2WD EX with approx 50mi, had mushy brakes also. I was in shock on how bad brake modulation on that brand new E was, compared with my old 98 Toyota 4Runner with front disc & rear drum. Let along I had great experience on the brake modulation on my wife's 07 CR-V. I was questioning myself did I want to buy an E or not.

When I was able to find the AWD EX E I want, with approx 30 mi but with lower VIN # & sit in the dealer for more than 3 months, to my pleasant surprise, it certainly has a lot better brake modulation than the 1st E I test drive.

I could only hope my E's brake modulation stay the same in the future.:neutral:
 
This post has been deleted
#26 ·
Agreed... people tend to think they are the best drivers... "I don't ride my brakes", "I don't follow too close", etc etc. Pads, rotors, and clutches... I read on the forums all the time complaining about premature wear. 9 times out of 10, it's bad driving. I have an integra with close to 200k miles, still on the ORIGINAL clutch, and the car has been tracked and auto-x.

I am happy to hear that there's now a TSB on this issue. I can take the element in and get it resolved.
 
#27 ·
'07 Mushy Brake concern...New Modulator/Master Cyl

Just caught that entry about the person that just got an '07 w/ 18,000 miles, and mushy brakes...
I just got mine BACK from the dealer at 33,500 miles with the same problem...I had the Modulator installed, AND the master cyl. FRANKLY, I SEE LITTLE CHANGE! It was all free on warranty, but, I'm gong to have to assume that ELEMENTS have strange brakes now, forever. Candidly, I'm not impressed with HONDA service...
 
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