Insurance Question

[Bald Eagle]

Okay...German friends just bought an Element in New York City. Want to keep their European licenses because they frequently travel back to the old country. State of New York says that is not a problem, but they are having trouble finding insurance coverage with this arrangement. Geico and Allstate both say they must surrender their European licenses for New York State licenses (can't have both). I suggested they try Progressive, AIG or Auto Club...or see if there is an a$$igned risk pool of some kind.

Any other suggestions? I'll also post this under Club X.

[MikeQBF]

Have them talk to State Farm. GEICO and Allstate (and AAA) are (in)famous for their inflexibility.

The insurance companies' incentive to dictate "one license only" is for tracking their driving "dossier", the central database the states share for traffic tickets and accident histories. Multiple licenses were a method that especially truckers used to mask bad driving records. I think the insurers also want to not have the foreign license in play at all, since any tickets written on it will escape the Big Brother database because it is US-only.

Like making sausage, you don't want to know the inner workings of the car insurance biz.



[I killed the Club X thread. Best to keep this in one spot.]

[Torgo]

Can't they just get NY licenses w/o surrendering their German licenses? Just walk in, take the test, and walk out. That's what I've done in the past when I wanted to keep my european license.

Besides, think of all the time they'd save every time someone wants a picture ID, no blank "huh, what is this" stares etc.

[Bald Eagle]

[quote:cffd44ba94=" "]Can't they just get NY licenses w/o surrendering their German licenses? Just walk in, take the test, and walk out. That's what I've done in the past when I wanted to keep my european license....[/quote:cffd44ba94]

Dunno. They were hoping to get a NY license by taking the writtten test because they already had a license from another country...same as when you move from one state to another. No deal. You have to take the written test AND the driving test (which requires an appointment...and driving in Manhattan ). The quickest solution seems to be finding an insurance company that will cover them with their European licenses. I'll see them this weekend and know if they've made any progress.

Big question: will they be driving their new Element or a rental car?

[hownowcb]

Between the two, (Mike QBF and Bald Eagle) we've opened about half a dozen cans of worms. First, the elegant solution is for them to surrender their German licenses. Any licensed American driver traveling to Europe may legally drive over there on a license from any of the 50 United States (provided they have an AAA "International Driver's License", which merely translates that the holder's American "local" license is valid and in force.

So Bald Eagle's friends' desire to keep their German licenses hints at either some form of deception, or for use as a foreign ID (whereas, might not a foreign picture ID suffice, as it does here?). But I don't want to go making those kinds of assumptions without more information. Otherwise, one might further assume that the only people who even qualify to insure a vehicle here might want to be U.S. citizens in the first place.

On the other side of the coin, Mike asserts some "conspiracy theory" rhetoric into the discussion with his suggestion of ONE national insurance database. It's an urban legend, folks. I work in the industry. My employer has a contract with a third-party database outfit that tracks in-and-out-of court settlement amounts regionally. Each company maintains it's own databases, and be thankful they do, or you'd be paying at a higher rate to cover the risk bad drivers and liars pose to the rest of us!

In a vacuum of NO data, any sane and fiscally solvent insurance company would be compelled to average rates for ALL insureds, and those of us who have good records would resent paying for the slackers, so do me and the rest of the good drivers a favor and back off on the supposed "evil" opinion regarding tracking (especially, bad) drivers' records!

We need more info before anyone can offer useful or practical suggestions, in my honestly humble opinion. And Mike's been rather preoccupied, so I assume his post was a severely condensed version of his broader, real knowledge. No fights being picked here! I'm assuming Bald Eagle's friends aren't members of the Red Brigade, and I'm further assuming that not all insurance companies are evil, and somehow fundamentally bear malice aforethought toward holders of German driver's licenses for no rational reasons.

[MikeQBF]

Colin's right - in my haste I vastly oversimplified it. There is no "national" database per se, just an agreement among many states for exchanging traffic ticket information - get a ticket in a participating state, the record of it goes back "home". It costs the insurance company to get a dump of your record (and only in your home state), so normally they only pull a report on initial application for insurance, or if you make a big claim.

Multiple licenses were a way of getting around this system, esp. if you held a license issued by a non-pact state.

I do, however, still feel it's a bit Big-Brotherish given the uneven way traffic rules are enforced - be thinking "no tolerance" states like OH, VA and CT versus laid-back places like the Dakotas and MT, where 10-over is a shoulder shrug. Citations resulting from traffic collisions are inconsistent, as well. Some states will nearly always issue citations if there is discernable fault even if partial, but some will not.

Be careful out there.

EDIT: 45 states and DC are members of the Drivers License Compact, the system I described above. The non-members are Georgia, Massachusetts, Michigan, Tennessee and Wisconsin.

[Bald Eagle]

[quote:6fad0149d6=" "]So Bald Eagle's friends' desire to keep their German licenses hints at either some form of deception...[/quote:6fad0149d6]

Nah, it's just a matter of expedience. It will take a week to ten days for them to go through the New York driver's license process, and in the meantime they have a brand new Element sitting at a dealership...while they're renting a car to travel back and forth between NY and CT. Finding an insurer who will accept their European licenses seems to be the quickest solution to putting them in the Element. Converting to a U.S. license can then come at a more leisurely pace.

[hownowcb]

See, I KNEW there was NO EVIL AFOOT! Mike's rightly pointed out the inequity of inconsistent enforcement of traffic laws, and the detrimental effect it can have on individuals. Just this week in Minnesota, some State Troopers have been issuing speeding citations to individuals "moving with the flow of traffic", even if the whole pack was 20 miles over the speed limit. At the same time, driving schools are teaching students that it's "safer" to move with the flow of traffic, than to impede it by observing the speed limit. What the hell are we really supposed to do!?

[Bald Eagle]

And some traffic laws are just plain stupid. In Connecticut, on a two lane road with a 55 mph speed limit, you want to legally pass a semi doing 48 mph. You get by as quickly as possible, right? Nope, 55 mph is as fast as you can go without breaking the law. I doubt that Connecticut in unique in this regard.

[DOGBOX]

In Washington state, it is my understanding that you must move with the flow of traffic, even if speeding, or get out of the lane. Which means, in essence, you can get ticketed for not going over the speed limit, if you are "impeding" the maniac behind you who wants to go 90 MPH.

Here in OR, we have a new law requiring you to drive the 20 mph or whatever is "designated" school zones 24 hrs a day/7 days a week. Now go figure--you are driving in an unfamiliar neighborhood. You don't know where the schools are. You are watching traffic/bicyclists/buses/pedestrians/traffic lights/stop signs/stray dogs, WHATEVER....you happen to miss the sign that says 20 mph AT ALL TIMES. It is 6 pm, and you look over and voila, there is a school. Geez, you might just get ticketed if you are going 25, which would otherwise be a very reasonable speed in a residential neighborhood. God forbid the school is on a boulevard and you happened to be going 40 mph.

Another Oregon golden law---you MUST change lanes when you see a law enforcment or emergency vehicle on roadside, IF IT IS SAFE TO DO SO. OTherwise you must slow down. OK. I used to just slow down and proceed cautiously. Now, I must start looking in rearview mirrors, over my shoulder, or whatever. JUST WHEN I SHOULD BE LOOKING DEAD AHEAD to make sure I don't hit anybody, a cop door doesn't swing open, etc. Seems to me they just made it unsafer than it was before.

These stupid laws place unreasonable burdens on drivers who are just trying to keep from smacking or getting smacked by the crazies out there.