Another sudden Optima failure

Free_man_E · Mar 31, 2012

I hated to dredge up an old thread, so I started a new one.(I hope it's ok?)
Anyway the old thread is here.> http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6573

I remember allot of people complaining of having sudden failures of there OPTIMA Batteries.
I had one Red top OPTIMA bite the big one in a very sudden manner myself. Granted I had
it for almost seven years, but it's demise without any kind of warning bothered me. (I've
got a theory about that I'll talk about later.) And I still wanted to have a AGM type
battery so I remembered that Backcountry Edge had bought a DieHard Platinum in group size
35. Well they go for $219.99 not including tax and that was a bit steep for me. And the other
thing is it still didn't have the same or higher amp per hour rating as the red top OPTIMA did.
So I found a DieHard Advanced Gold AGM Battery - Group Size 34R for $144.99 not including tax.
I did give up 5 amp per hour over the Platinum, the gold is rated at 55 @ 20 Hr rate and the
Platinum is 59 @ 20 Hr rate.

Backcountry Edge's post.>
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showpost.php?p=728347&postcount=97

Stats>
Platinum
Amp Hours at 20 Hour Rate:= 59
Cold Cranking Amps (CCA at 0 deg.F)= 740
Reserve Capacity (RC):= 100 min.
4-year FREE Replacement, 100 Month Pro-Rated Limited Warranty
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02850035000P

Gold
Amp Hours at 20 Hour Rate:= 55
Cold Cranking Amps= 775
Reserve Capacity (RC):= 120 min.
3-year FREE Replacement<-As listed on the battery
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_02850733000P?mv=rr

Here is the top of the battery(Reversed. The top of the picture is the front of the car)

Also I used the plastic spacer that the battery came with, it was snapped to the top of the
battery. Make sure it's on the battery when you buy it, some of them where gone on there
batteries in the store. The spacer goes on the bottom of the battery when installed. It
helped the battery fit the OEM battery bracket better. Also you do not need the OEM plastic
battery tray and cover. I was able to reuse the OEM J-bolts but I used a new battery hold down
bar that came from Napa Auto parts and some washers.(I don't remember the part #)

Regular view.

I'm out of time, I'll post my theory about why the OPTIMA's might be failing
suddenly in a latter post. I need to draw up some diagrams anyway.

Free_man_E · Mar 31, 2012

Well my theory about how OPTIMA could fail deals with the way lead acid
batteries build up lead sulfate crystals on the surface of the electrode plates.
This causes the plates to expand and increase in thickness by a significant
amount. I've seen really old batteries split open and leak all there electrolyte.

Now a regular flat plate battery will expand outward in mainly one direction.
This is due to the fact that the electrodes are flat. Also from the side, because
of the contact posts on the top of the battery, the battery will end up with
a bit of a trapezoid shape. Larger on the bottom opposite of the contact posts.
This type and shape of expansion of the electrode plates usually doesn't cause
catastrophic failure of the connections from the electrode plates to the
contact posts, they just bend outward.

Now for a spiral sell there are stresses that can occur in more than one direction.
Not only do you get a outward bending of the contact posts that connect
to the electrode plates, but you also get a sideways twisting force. The
twisting force comes from the battery trying to uncoil its self. I think this
causes a double whammy that literally shears the connection between the
electrode plates and the contact posts.

Spiral sell on the left and regular battery on right.

As I said this is only a theory, I haven't had a chance to dissect a dead
OPTIMA battery to find out if this could be true.

MikeQBF · Mar 31, 2012

The intent is appreciated, but the Optima discussion from the "bigger battery" thread was actually thread drift. So I changed the thread title to reflect your recent experience.

Did you keep the failed Optima, or did you reflexively swap it when you bought the DieHard? Expect Jim from Optima to add his 2 cents; I had promised him that we would try to save an example of these sudden failures to send to their folks for a post mortem. I think the normal PbHCl-battery recycling system is seriously masking this (in my perception) frequent failure mode peculiar to the Optimas.

Free_man_E · Apr 1, 2012

I used the OPTIMA for a core return at Sears, I wished that I knew about that
arrangement I only got $15 for the core exchange. Maybe I could have gotten
the $15 from OPTIMA.

So far I love my new battery, I ran my thermoelectric ice chest for two hours
as a test and the voltage staid at 12.4 the hole time, it draws around 5 amps
My old POS OEM battery would have droped below 11 volts by then.

Also I added a 1 1/2 inch by 1/8 thick aluminum strip under the hold down bar
because I didn't like how the bar was digging into the plastic of the battery.
I painted it with flat black paint and filed a notch on the bottom side of the
aluminum strip. This is to prevent it from blocking the gas vent on the top of
the battery.

Optima bill · Apr 25, 2012

Hi Freeman,
First, I am sorry you had battery issues, and hate you traded it in for core since I would have loved to have gotten the battery and looked at it.
Understand, before I reply to your theory that I am not an engineer, but will attempt to address what you have said after talking with our engineer about this.
Ok, lets start here. A cylinder is much stronger than a box. *Because of this the cells in an OPTIMA do not cause the container to bulge as described for a typical battery. *

The container of an OPTIMA battery has cylindrical openings for each cell which are molded together with contact at a minimum of 2 corners providing additional strength and support against movement of the cells relative to each other or relative to the post. as opposed to 6 rectangular opening arranged inline in a typical battery. *The cells can not move or cause the cells to move relative to the posts. *

Here is a simplified example, glue 6 paper towel tubes in a six pack shape (similar to OPTIMA) and same boxes as above inline (similar to a flat plate battery). *Note rounds tubes force to cause the overall length to change a given distance vs force to move the boxes relative to each other the same distance. *Be consistent in whether the top/bottom of the box and tubes is present. *If the tubes are open on the ends, the boxes should be also.

The cells are inserted into the container under compression. *The cells can't move or "unwind" within the container.

I hope this helps explain why we use spiral cylinders and why we feel it is a much better design. Again, I am no engineer, but if you need more explanation, I will see if I can get one to help me with this.

One other thing I need to point out, I can hardly consider a battery failure after 7 years of use as sudden and not sure what type of warning you were expecting?

Thanks,
Bill Howell
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.

ramblerdan · Apr 25, 2012

I don't understand the "seven years" reference in the first post. Free_man_E's profile shows a 2008 Element. That would be four years, unless the battery was moved to the Element from a previous car?

It would have been ever so useful if the OP had tested the battery's voltage before turning it in. If it were zero, we'd have something substantive to talk about.

Free_man_E · Apr 29, 2012

Yes the battery was from a previous car, I just kept it as a core return.

As for the sudden failure, I've had other batteries give me hard starts towards the end of there life, but the OPTIMA
worked fine one day but the next day it wouldn't even turn the engine over. The starter solenoid just made a clicking
sound. I tried to charge it after that and it even got worse, this tells me there was some kind of failure in the connections
between the cells in the battery.

ramblerdan · Apr 30, 2012

> starter solenoid just made a clicking sound
Not an open-circuit failure, then. Had there been an open-circuit failure, the battery would produce zero volts, and wouldn't even power the dome light. So what we have is a seven-year-old battery that won't hold a charge.

I'm not saying the Optimas can't experience an open fail, only that this isn't such a case.

GRNDHOG · May 1, 2012

I'm not really sure what "open fail" and "closed fail" (?) means, but I know that my Yellow Top failed me today.

I purchased it 13 months ago.

Had to jump it twice today. The second time I jumped it, I drove it 4 miles to the auto store (not long enough to charge, I know) and it had 10.3 volts when they tested it.

I jumped it to get home from work. When I pulled into the garage at 4:45 I had 12.8 volts on the battery.

at 8:00pm when I went to leave, is when I jumped it the second time.

Advance Auto charged it and tested it again, which it failed.

Here's to hoping Yellow Top #2 lasts longer this time!

FYI, 100% bone stock element in terms of electronics. I'm not running anything aftermarket (unless you count a satellite radio)

ramblerdan · May 1, 2012

Did you get some of the cost back on warranty?

An "open" failure means a connection somewhere inside the battery breaks. Because the cells are in series, a broken circuit means zero volts, just as if you had disconnected one of the battery cables.

Conventional (square) lead-acid batteries occasionally suffer a short circuit in a single plate, which will lower the output enough to make the battery useless for starting the car, but it won't be stone-cold dead.

Open failures are uncommon in square batteries. Optimas have been implicated in open-circuit failures, but the data is frustratingly sparse because nobody seems willing to ship a heavy battery back to Optima for analysis, or even to put a volt meter on one to verify whether it has failed open. So we're left to conjecture.

GRNDHOG · May 1, 2012

I see. Thanks for dumbing it down for me!

The battery has a free replacement warranty for 36 months so after about 45 minutes of waiting around Advance Auto Parts gave me a free one.

They tested it on the car. The machine said "replace battery"
The guy then said, that they need to charge it first then run the test again.
Charge cycle takes 35 minutes.
Second test, same result.

Luckily I kept the receipt!

Another sudden Optima failure

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