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Element 6 speed MT Conversion Plans/Parts

443K views 760 replies 171 participants last post by  Southpaw she/her 
#1 · (Edited)
Honda Element 6 speed Manual Transmission Conversion

Part numbers supplied are from a 2006 Acura TSX 6MT
The identical parts could be obtained from a 2006 Civic Si 6MT, but the part numbers will be slightly different.

I recommend both of these manuals:
Helms Honda Element Manual
Helms Acura TSX Manual

- Shifter mechanism parts -
Reverse shift piece 24240-PNS-000
Shift arm interlock 24430-PNS-000 (or modify the old one)

*5-6 gearshift fork 24201-RAS-000* NOTE: In at least one CRV and possibly in some later model Elements the Reverse shift piece may be welded to the Element's 5-Reverse shift fork, instead of being attached by a pin. In this case see step 3 below.

These parts are optional. The function of these parts hasn't been determined; however the transmission functions well without them. They may be necessary for reverse safety interlock.
* MBS arm 24412-PNS-000
* MBS arm spring 24413-PNS-000

* - added by MikeQBF. }

- Main shaft parts -
Mainshaft 6th gear 23590-RAS-A00
Needle Bearing (35 x 41 x 24) 91103-RAS-003
Collar (28 x 35 x 24) 23916-PNS-000
5-6 Synchronizer Sleeve Set 23626-PNS-315

- Countershaft parts -
Special bolt 90011-PPP-000
Countershaft 6th gear 23491-RAS-000

Procedure
Note: This is the procedure that I followed. This worked for me, however if there are mistakes or omissions I cannot be held responsible. There are several variations that will also work. Without proper experience it is possible to destroy the transmission if it is not reassembled correctly. It is important to inspect all parts and if there are any worn parts they should be replaced. Please use caution and common sense.

1. Following procedure in the Element Manual, remove the transmission. Note it is not necessary to remove the outboard joints of the driveshafts from the wheel hub. They can remain in place. Just remove the inboard joints from the transmission and intermediate shaft. Do remove the intermediate shaft.

2. Follow procedure in the Element Manual for disassembly of the transmission. Stop after the shifter and gearsets have been removed. Discard the reverse cam lock.

3. Drive out the pin connecting the reverse shift fork and the 5th gear shift fork. Discard the pin. Remove and discard the reverse shift fork. Replace with the new 6 speed reverse shift fork. **In at least one CRV and possibly some later model Elements the reverse shift fork may be welded to the 5th gear shift fork (rather than attached by a connecting pin). In this case you must order the TSX 5-6 gearshift fork 24201-RAS-000. Use this shift fork as a replacement for the stock 5th gear shift fork.**

4. Follow the procedure in the Element Manual for disassembly of the mainshaft. Remove the taper cone ring and associated distance collar, and discard. Remove 5th gear synchronizer, discard and stop. Follow the procedure in the Acura TSX manual for reassembly of the mainshaft. Press the new 5-6 synchronizer hub onto the mainshaft. Place the new collar and needle bearing on the mainshaft. Place the new mainshaft 6th gear over the needle bearing. Replace the ball bearing as directed.

5. Follow the procedure in the Element Manual for disassembly of the countershaft. The appropriate way to do this is to use a bearing puller and hydraulic press, but some people cheat. Other people find a local tranny shop may help with this step. Remove the special bolt (note - reverse threads). Remove the bearing, the shim, and the distance collar, then stop. Discard the special bolt and distance collar. Follow the procedure in the Acura TSX manual for reassembly of the mainshaft. Press the countershaft 6th gear onto the countershaft. Complete reassembly of the countershaft as directed.

6. Replace the shift arm interlock with the new interlock. Alternatively, the slot in the old shift arm interlock can be elongated by about 6mm (the width of the reverse select lever).

7. Follow procedure in the Element Manual for reassembly of the transmission. Do not re-install the reverse lock cam. Note: Be sure to install the speed sensor spacer (It is not a washer) in the correct order - Bolt, sensor, spacer, transmission.

8. Following procedure in the Element Manual, install the transmission.

9. Drive.
 
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#52 ·
Green Machine said:
Which makes me think there is a reason for making the E to a 5sp. Given the distinctly un-areodynamic desing of the E, maybe they wanted to limit the top speed by not offering a 6th gear.
I don't think that makes any sense. Theoretical top speed is likely higher in 5th than 6th, and is almost certainly limited electronically, anyway. I'm sure the E runs out of power way before it runs out of gearing.
 
#54 ·
ramblerdan said:
The E has an RPM limiter, so in normal conditions (level ground, no headwind) it should have a higher top speed in 6th than in 5th.
No, there is a speed limiter, too, Paul. Most (all?) US cars these day are limited to a top speed which does not exceed the speed rating of the OEM tires.

I strongly suspect that you will be unable to "go faster" in 6th, and my edu-guess is that it will run out of steam around 90 or so. The tall gearing takes away a lot of torque, which you need in order to push against the wind, and also moves RPM well away of the torque/HP peaks.

FWIW, I've had several cars where 5th was a loping "cruise" gear, and top speed was only achievable in 4th.
 
#56 ·
MikeQBF said:
No, there is a speed limiter, too, Paul. Most (all?) US cars these day are limited to a top speed which does not exceed the speed rating of the OEM tires.

I strongly suspect that you will be unable to "go faster" in 6th, and my edu-guess is that it will run out of steam around 90 or so. The tall gearing takes away a lot of torque, which you need in order to push against the wind, and also moves RPM well away of the torque/HP peaks.

FWIW, I've had several cars where 5th was a loping "cruise" gear, and top speed was only achievable in 4th.
You might be right MikeQBF but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the limiter on the Element set at 109mph. If that's the case, and 109 is achievable now we'd be going from 5450rpm down to 4360rpm in 6th, still well within the peak torque zone. There might be a little left after that without the limiter.

Anyone with a 5-spd gotten up to 109? or is the limiter pointless, I've only seen 95 or so.
 
#57 ·
rhurt said:
Reverse lock: There is a cam in the 5 speed that prevents you from moving the shift lever from 5th directly into reverse. This way when you downshift to 4th, you cannot mistakenly put it into reverse. Instead to shift from 5th to reverse you must pull the shift lever out of 5th, move it at least one space to the left, then back to the right and into reverse.
First of all Rhurt this is a very pioneering mod. Thanks for paving the way for others, as you took a huge gamble. I have ripped apart several Nissan SE-R trannies and repaired/modified them so I have no problem in tearing this tranny down and performing this mod myself. (I can't wait.)

So my question is, why can't we also take from the MDX or SI tranny the mechanism for reverse lockout (as you say the cam) which I would think is on the outside of the case...according to this http://www.slhondaparts.com/browse....ssions=KA&PartCatalogId=14SVA6&ViewParts=true

Looks like either part 16 or 17.

Otherwise it would seem hard to garantee a smooth up shift downward from 5th into 6th due to the spring the neutralizes the shift lever to the 3/4 gate. In other words you can PULL toward you safely when accessing 1-2, let the spring push you in the 3-4 shifts, and up until now PUSH over safely into 5 with a preventive down into reverse. After conversion I would have to make a conscious effort to make sure I push down into 6th and not push over too far into reverse.

Please advise.

Thanks
Thomas
 
#58 ·
Thomas Reynolds said:
Looks like either part 16 or 17.
Both. Plus others, plus some wiring. Ric mentioned previously that the reverse lockout is a button, and this button activates a solenoid which releases the lockout cam. You're right, however, in that the lockout assembly appears to be all external, and it looks like it can be done after-the-fact.

Comparing the 6MT shifter assembly to the 5MT, referring to the drawing below you will need parts #'s: 1, 9, 16, 17, 18, 19, 23, 29 and 30.


Illustration courtesy http://www.acuraautomotiveparts.org

Then inside you will need (obvious by now) the button for the shifter - and associated wiring - to energize the solenoid (#19) to release the lockout.

I'll continue to explore the interior parts and see if there's a way to replace the E's shift lever with either the Civic's or TSX's shifter-with-button. Whatever has to be done needs to be integrated with the shift lever, even if you just tape a trigger button of your own on the knob - otherwise shifting into reverse becomes a two-handed operation.
 
#59 ·
Uh oh. No button. It just occurred to me that the reverse lockout has to be automatic. All you have to do is recognize that you are at zero MPH forward speed, and you energize the solenoid to release the cam. Any forward speed or a speed lower than some-low-number, don't release the cam.

It looks like I'm going to be spending some time looking at ECU wiring to see if there is a signal we might be able to use for this.
 
#60 ·
worthywads said:
You might be right MikeQBF but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the limiter on the Element set at 109mph. If that's the case, and 109 is achievable now we'd be going from 5450rpm down to 4360rpm in 6th, still well within the peak torque zone. There might be a little left after that without the limiter.

Anyone with a 5-spd gotten up to 109? or is the limiter pointless, I've only seen 95 or so.
Let me just chime in and say that she cooks along just fine at 90mph in 6th. I didn't push it beyond there but it seemed like the power was there to meet the speed limiter. I will say that lower in the power curve say around 2600rpm it is a little weak for prolonged uphill climbs, however on flat terrain there is no issue with acceleration.
 
#61 · (Edited)
MikeQBF said:
Uh oh. No button. It just occurred to me that the reverse lockout has to be automatic. All you have to do is recognize that you are at zero MPH forward speed, and you energize the solenoid to release the cam. Any forward speed or a speed lower than some-low-number, don't release the cam.

It looks like I'm going to be spending some time looking at ECU wiring to see if there is a signal we might be able to use for this.
Thats right Mike there is no existing button. In the TSX the reverse lockout is automatically activated once the vehicle is moving faster than 12mph. Once the vehicle then slows below 9mph the solenoid is deactivated and Reverse gear becomes available again. This feature is obviously controlled by the ECU which I am not sure that Honda would have included on the Element ECU.

What you read infact was my proposal to correct this. I proposed taking the entire shift arm assembly, including the reverse lockout solenoid and install it in the element tranny. (So Thomas the entire assembly would essentially be required, not just the cam piece.) I would then have the solenoid energized while the car was on thus preventing access to reverse. The solenoid could then be deactivated by some custom switch mounted on the shift handle or elsewhere - this is just like an electronic version of the shift lockout found on old corvettes.
 
#62 ·
Thomas Reynolds said:
So my question is, why can't we also take from the MDX or SI tranny the mechanism for reverse lockout (as you say the cam) which I would think is on the outside of the case...

After conversion I would have to make a conscious effort to make sure I push down into 6th and not push over too far into reverse.

Thomas
Thomas, I had these same concerns initially. However there are a couple of things acting in favor of not shifting into reverse by mistake. First of all the shifting is very smooth and distinct. Secondly based on the layout of the pattern - which is illustrated correctly above, and identical to the other 6 MT hondas - 5th gear is in the same location as before. 5th is on the opposite side of reverse - up not down. So there is no danger when accessing 5th. The shift from 5th to 6th is obviously a straight pull down. In order to access reverse you would have to make a very exaggerated movement to the right. It is not something that would typically happen unless you wanted to. (Initially I did miss 6th and mistakenly downshifted to 4th while I was being more cautious) Third, the spring pressure differential is still present. In neutral the stick sits in 3-4 gate. Upon slight pressure to the right you access 5-6 gate, then there is a distinct stop and even greater pressure must be applied to access the Reverse gate. And finally, I don't believe that it would be physically possible to put the transmission in reverse at high way speeds even if all of the above failed (no synchros).

I was initally very cautious the first few drives, but have since become very comfortable and have not had any issues with the lack of reverse lockout.

To add a reverse lockout see previous post. I also have increased the precision of my shifter by replacing all of the rubber bushings in the linkage with metal ones, this has made a significant difference in feel. Before I added the reverse lockout, I think that I would be tempted to try the Buddy Club short shifter, which would make the movements even more distinct and increase the effort required. This would probably make the reverse spring resistance even firmer (by loss of leverage)

Sorry for the long post.
 
#64 ·
>...very exaggerated movement to the right. ...

The "exaggerated detent" method is a legit lockout system for reverse. I had a car many moons back with a racing configuration transmission - the "H" was 2-3 and 4-5, and 1st was down and left. Reverse was up and left, and took a goodly additional push. I never screwed-up the 1-2 shift to accidentally hit reverse. (However, the shift lever was gated... hmmm.)

Anyway, IMO the solenoid lockout system is suspenders with a belt.
 
#66 ·
6sp Gas mileage increase??

What kind of mileage are you seeing? You said earlier that you had over 700 miles on the transmission. I am sure that you have had a few gas stops! Are you getting the 28 mpg. Or the 20% that you said the rpm's dropped. or is it less?? I would definetly do the MOD if the figure was in the 20% or 28+mpg range.
 
#67 ·
snapple341 said:
What kind of mileage are you seeing? You said earlier that you had over 700 miles on the transmission. I am sure that you have had a few gas stops! Are you getting the 28 mpg. Or the 20% that you said the rpm's dropped. or is it less?? I would definetly do the MOD if the figure was in the 20% or 28+mpg range.
Discussed here: http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25730
 
#70 ·
rhurt said:
What do you say now Snapple, are you in?

Excellent Thomas. I wish you the best. Good to have another one on board. Who is going to be the second member of the club?
I'm stilly trying trying trying to find a shop willing to do this work anywhere in the DC Metro Area. I've spoken with more than 20 shops, and nobody wants to attempt it as they have enough "normal work". So again, if anyone knows a tuner or a good shop in MD, or VA, please send me a private message.
 
#71 ·
Snarf77 said:
I'm stilly trying trying trying to find a shop willing to do this work anywhere in the DC Metro Area. I've spoken with more than 20 shops, and nobody wants to attempt it as they have enough "normal work". So again, if anyone knows a tuner or a good shop in MD, or VA, please send me a private message.

Hey Snarf77. I applaud your determination and am pulling for you. Why don't you check the boards over at K20a.org? They have a lot of tuners over there. You have to register to read the posts, but it is well worth it. Have you tried any places that could split the work (one place pulls the tranny, another one opens it up and does the swap)?
 
#72 ·
Snarf77 said:
I'm stilly trying trying trying to find a shop willing to do this work anywhere in the DC Metro Area. I've spoken with more than 20 shops, and nobody wants to attempt it as they have enough "normal work". So again, if anyone knows a tuner or a good shop in MD, or VA, please send me a private message.
I might know of a few shops. Let me check with some friends down in that area and I'll let you know.



 
#73 ·
Parts arrived this evening. 100% all here. http://www.acuraautomotiveparts.org is OK in my book!

I sprung for the Honda shift interlock piece rather than spending an hour or so hand-machining something I don't have precision dimensions for (or I'm just chicken... ;-) ). So my total parts bill was pennies under $200.

My "problem" now is that I have another car apart in the garage and it's in the way, waiting on something that won't be here until next Wednesday, soonest. It was supposed to be today, but that's how it goes, I guess. :-(

No problem with having working transportation - even taking the E apart we would still have two other vehicles, but the "spread out" room for a precision project like opening a gearbox is momentarily foiled. But have hope... maybe I can put the other project back down on its wheels and roll it into the drive if the weather is going to be assured to be dry for a couple of days. It's T-storm season here, so that might be wishful thinking.
 
#74 ·
Mike.. you know it's your duty to keep the camera handy and photography and document every part and step along the way..... right? :-D
 
#75 ·
Sheniferous said:
Mike.. you know it's your duty to keep the camera handy and photography and document every part and step along the way..... right? :-D
Oh, gawd, Shen. That means do something... wash hands to handle the camera... take pix... make sure they came out OK... go back to work... do something... wash hands... blah blah blah.

[sigh] :roll:

I'll try and yes, it was my intent to take pix, but no promises. On the plus side, the pictures that are important are going to be during the beginning and middle of the process. So when I start feeling the pressure of it taking 3X longer than I anticipated (...s.o.p. for me...), it'll be during reassembly, when stopping to take pictures shouldn't be an issue.
 
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