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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all, This is my first post to the forum, but I have found it super useful in fixing most of my problems. However, this problem is pretty specific and I have not been able to find anyone else with this exact situation.

My 07 Element SC (Manual) started this problem a little more than 2 years ago. it started after the 110,000 mile mark. I'm now at 127,000.

The Problem:
After the element has sat overnight, If I crank it up with the A/C on and don't let it warm up for at least 5 minutes, it will stall out at the 3rd stop sign leaving my house like clockwork. If I do not turn the a/c off it will struggle to crank back up.

If I Crank it after an overnight and do not let it warm up, but leave the A/C off for the first mile or so, it will not stall and be ok the rest of the day. Even after it stalls it will remain ok the rest of the day no problems, so it's controllable but still concerning.

It does not throw a check engine light when the stall occurs or anytime after.

Whats Been Done:
When this problem first started happening I had the Throttle body replaced by a ASE Mechanic who works at the used dealership I work at. He said the car was not throwing any codes but he was pretty sure that it was the tps sensor in the throttle body so he replaced the whole throttle body and it fixed the problem. (Note: the stalling was much more random at this time)

Fast forward to year later and the current problem starts happening. I had the same mechanic check the throttle body, he said it looked fine and was working fine, and even though it wasn't that dirty he cleaned it anyway. The problem still persists. (He has since left the dealership and moved, so I'm trying to fix this myself as our new mechanic is not that experienced with hondas)

Things I have replaced myself after reading possibilities on the forum:
Replaced the Mass Air Flow with an OEM Denso replacement, Had the battery check while under load (it was operating fine but is past its 3 year), replaced the spark plugs with the OEM NGK plugs, New Air Filter and the problem still persists.

The radiator was replaced in 09 after a minor fender bender as well but seems fine. No leaks good levels. I also had to replace a the A/C Fuse relay a while back as well.

The idle after warmed up still seems to bounce between 7-800 rpms, and will hold at like 1200 when the A/C is on. We could hear a little skip at the muffler and Replacing the spark plugs seemed to help with the skip and idle a little. We tried doing the idle relearn procedure myself with my dad but we did not reset it first with a HDS tool. My dad says the idle still seems a little low but better.

So my next steps would be:
- Replace entire throttle body again.
- Have valves adjusted
- Have Honda relearn idle
- Replace the battery

Sorry for the long first post but I wanted to be thorough in hopes that would help.
Any info or ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks Levi
 

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Discussion Starter #4
But has it been scanned for codes, pending, or otherwise?

Do you have access to and know how to use the HDS?
When the mechanic first replaced the throttle body he said there were no codes stored in there. I have not checked it since the problem started again. I talked with the mechanic about that and he said he thought maybe if they had the scan tool hooked up when it happened they might could catch something.

I don't have access to HDS (or know how to use it) We have one at the dealership but it's not a Honda specific tool. I could get them to scan it again.
 

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The reason I asked about codes is because some... indeed many... require TWO TRIPS to 'set' the code and light the light. Because yours only does it once, and never two subsequent drive cycles, it may not set a code. You MIGHT see something if it was scanned when it happens.

If you brought it to Honda, probably the first thing they would do is to reset the ECU and then learn idle, crank position, cam position sensors...

The ECU may not know that the A/C is being turned on and not properly adjusting the idle speed when it is.

There may also be some weird thing with the A/C ... bogging the engine down... maybe an overcharge? maybe the high pressure switch isn't cutting off the compressor?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
What is your voltage at idle?
I can't remember the numbers off the top of my head but my dad checked it the morning that we changed the spark plugs and he said it looked to be where it was supposed to be.

I can get check it again if seeing the exact numbers matters.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
The reason I asked about codes is because some... indeed many... require TWO TRIPS to 'set' the code and light the light. Because yours only does it once, and never two subsequent drive cycles, it may not set a code. You MIGHT see something if it was scanned when it happens.

If you brought it to Honda, probably the first thing they would do is to reset the ECU and then learn idle, crank position, cam position sensors...

The ECU may not know that the A/C is being turned on and not properly adjusting the idle speed when it is.

There may also be some weird thing with the A/C ... bogging the engine down... maybe an overcharge? maybe the high pressure switch isn't cutting off the compressor?
The idle does change when the A/C is on verses off. Definitely has an higher idle as it warms up. Later on in the day the idle does come down even with the A/C on.

What I'm scared of here is having to take it to Honda, cause I am not a fan of the dealer near me. Bad past service experience with them not being honest. (telling me I need new cabin filters when I just changed them etc). So I wanted to try anything I can before having to take it in and pay the high hourly rates for diagnostics, Especially if it something like a $5 relay or a relearn process I can do myself.

But the mechanic who worked on it here at my work did say that Honda has tools and scanners that only honda has, and I kinda feel like I am at the point where this is looking like a computer issue and not a part that I can fix. Just not sure.

So if I have to take it I will, I just want to exercise as many options as possible but also not continue down this rabbit hole.

My mechanic did mention that having the valves adjusted might not be a bad idea but it doesn't sound too bad.

Also, In talking with my wife just now because she drives it the most, she did say that it has stalled with the A/C off or it was on real low, but she can't be sure. Not sure if that helps.

Thanks for the tips so far
Levi
 

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I'm going to take a look at my service manuals this evening and see if I can turn something up that might be helpful.

I wonder if it's possibly an EGR problem (though I would expect that to throw a code), or if our engines have an 'idle air control' that might be malfunctioning.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I'm going to take a look at my service manuals this evening and see if I can turn something up that might be helpful.

I wonder if it's possibly an EGR problem (though I would expect that to throw a code), or if our engines have an 'idle air control' that might be malfunctioning.
From what I have gathered on here and looking around the net, 2007 and later E's don't have an IACV on the outside of the throttle body. Apparently they changed it to the TPS and its built into the Throttle body.

I also saw that someone said E's don't have EGR's either. Could be wrong though.

Thanks for helping out!
Levi
 

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I think when they went to the 'drive by wire' throttle body and actuator that the need for the idle air control was eliminated. The control is, I believe, at the ECU level and it adjusts the idle via the Throttle Position system... but I have to confirm that.

I _think_ we've still got EGR though. Almost certain of that.
 

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Yes... quite true what Dan said... valve adjustment!

I meant to touch on this when you said:

My mechanic did mention that having the valves adjusted might not be a bad idea but it doesn't sound too bad.
What happens with our engines is that the intake valves stay pretty close to spec, and might even loosen a bit.

The EXHAUST valves on the other hand typically TIGHTEN with mileage.

So, even though they don't "sound too bad", keep in mind that a TIGHT valve is VERY BAD because it leads to BURNED VALVES and ESPECIALLY on the exhaust side! And, a TIGHT valve won't make any noise at all... only loose valves do that.

Yeah, get the valves adjusted soon, if they've never been. Don't wait for a valve to burn!
 

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And by the way, the K24 engine certainly DOES have EGR system.

Regarding Idle speed:

There are a number of inputs to the Idle Control System:

A/C compressor
Alternator
P/S pressure switch
Brake pedal switch

If valve adjustment doesn't cure the problem, as MANY have reported that it DOES, we can get into this a bit more later.

One last thing:

You said that you can do the "Idle Learn Procedure" yourself.

How can you do that if you don't have the HDS to reset the ECU? Resetting that is the first step.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
And by the way, the K24 engine certainly DOES have EGR system.

Regarding Idle speed:

There are a number of inputs to the Idle Control System:

A/C compressor
Alternator
P/S pressure switch
Brake pedal switch

If valve adjustment doesn't cure the problem, as MANY have reported that it DOES, we can get into this a bit more later.

One last thing:

You said that you can do the "Idle Learn Procedure" yourself.

How can you do that if you don't have the HDS to reset the ECU? Resetting that is the first step.
Ok, I guess I will start with getting the Valves Checked out. Any idea on what the cost of that at the Honda Dealership is? And is this something that has to be done by a certified dealer or can it be done by an outside shop? What would you guys recommend?

And yeah, that was my biggest question about the relearn procedure. All the places I read about were not really clear about whether it needed to be reset HDS tool first. Didn't think that really worked haha.
 

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There's some discussion on the cost to have the work done in the Valve Adjustment with pictures! thread (stickeyed in the Maintenance and Service forum), including this post and this one, and also this post in the thread titled Valve adjustment. A thread-title search for keyword "valve" returns both those threads.
Thanks for links Dan.
My local honda dealer wants $265.00 plus tax which isn't that bad I guess. Since it's something I need to do anyway I'm going to get that taken care of and I will let you guys know if that fixes the problem or if they have anything else to report.

Thanks for all the input from both of you guys so far.
Levi
 

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Discussion Starter #17
At 127,000 miles, if you haven't have the valves adjusted yet, you're overdue. It might solve all your problems.
Got the Valves Adjusted and that totally solved the problem.Thanks for all the help in diagnosing the problem Dan. Really appreciate it and hope this thread helps someone else. Thanks Levi
 
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