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Discussion Starter #1
Yeah, you want the odd box Element gas hog, and July 4th 2010 approaches.
:evil: This is a plan, we all need one when buying a car, that may work for you, now.

Scoot around, check out dealers inventory, pick two colors you want.
Leave momma, your partner, kids, dog, humor, at home.
Or lay out the plan and take em, eat breakfast top off water juice etc, or what ever first, and head out.

You will get the routine offer of MSRP $23K +. Sit steady, do road test etc.
the sit down will end up bloody.

Be prepared to say, I want to buy this car, "Today" if you meet my price for an Element sitting on the dealer lot.

They will play 'let me check with my manager" roulette.
Facts or logic to the madness:
The 2010 model year is 1 year old, right now. :|

Warning: Be prepared to be told "no Honda dealer will honor this price".

The dealer price for the 2010 EX 4WD was $22.225.00, in September of 2009. :|
Fine print: including freight. :shock:

MSRP if you read that window sticker, list freight as part of that cost.
That is the price they ALL promote when you walk in the door.
But, unknown to you: Each dealer gets a $490.00 back on each sale, the hold back, regardless of final sale price, of as a cover.

Your actual cash value for the car, is what your insurance company will declare as Total loss pay out: dealer cost, $22,225.00 minus 1 year depreciation [$2830.00].

http://www.internetautoguide.com/index.html

Pull up the windows, or any calculator to figure that ACV or true cost to be: $19,395.00. [I can guess underwear are being soiled as I type this..]

Now, add on a dealer profit, say 5%?
You are at $19,400.00 X 1.05 = $20,370.00. :evil:
2010 Element EX 4WD :)

A salesman will go into MMA mode when you mention that figure.
and most will be bitter even at $20,500.00, but have the figures printed, and be patient.

The fighting will be between $21,000.00 and $20, 400.00.
Unless you find the "fleet" manager, or 'sales" manager. But do expect spitting, and rude idiotic behavior. [You were warned about the kids and wife, Ok?]

When they "do" agree to that price, here is where they will "try" to back out:
They will want to add that "Freight" / Destination, charge back into the price.
$710 or $780.
And processing fees, and dealer add on's out the butt.
I have been told their processing fee's are as high as $400.
Just say no, but agree to $99 for processing.
You are at $20,600.00.
Dealer added accessories: Wheel locks, splash guards: The Fleet manager may try to say, he wants $100.00 to $800.00 for these items as a last resort.
Honda sells them, installed, and gives the price per dealer at www.estore.honda.com. Research this and print the prices out to show em.

Almost every Element will have wheel locks added. Splash guards maybe.
One dealer added Nitrogen to the tires to drive his add on's to $800.00.
Worthless once you add real air to your tires each month.
Again you will have to put the figures from estore.honda on paper to at least have a chance to stop the moaning and crying with a dealer.

They are all marked up way over 200%
For a DIY price reference check here: www.g1parts.com [free shipping]
Wheel locks & splash guards, Grandma, or a caveman can put em on.
Print these prices out as well. The dealer may give in to reality because they are making a killing on the mark up anyway.

G1 is a Honda dealership by the way.

You are inching towards $21,000.00?
Tax. No way out of that one.
Tags. Offer to get your own to save that up to $300 service charge.
Finance charge's.....
YMMV here, I got 3.9% from Honda.
Gap insurance: Just say no.
The dealer gets $200 for every sale.

They will pound you for that destination charge gambit, and try to add on tax to that figure if you relent.
But keep in mind the cold hard facts, once you drive off, you are driving a $19,400.00 gas hog, that resales, USED, for $22,000.00 at any CarMax nation wide. And that is IF you can find one within driving distance to your home. :razz:

Again YMMV, Me 1st 200 miles almost 2/3 of a tank of gas.
2010 Tango Red Pearl 4WD EX. 8)
 

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Ummmm...

Congratulations...? Not sure where you were going with this thread...

LBD
 

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All a nice fantasy. You are going to have to wait until well into the 2011 model year to get a rational dealer to sell you a car at a loss.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
:|
Just wanted to post information guys.
Lowest holiday offer in the Washington DC area: $20,224.00.
Not one other dealer would admit that that price and would call that dealer.
$20,500 and even $21K they would ask to see any email agreement, I had three they read em going down to $20,224.00 on a 2010 Element EX AWD ATM. Silver/black/ or orange. We didn't want those colors.
Dealers will not admit to but will honor $21K, or to match what ever price any other Honda dealer has emailed you.
Lowest price on TRP or Midnight Blue Pearl in the DC area was $20,500.00.

I purchased at $20,500.00 plus the dreaded freight $710.00 that included wheel locks and splash guards last Saturday. Then of course tax, $99 dealer processing, tags
Rides great but is a certified gas hog. with or without the air conditioning going. We love it, but those are the facts gents.;-)
Financed by AHFC at 3.9%.

July 4th is the last gasp before the 2011's hit the books in banks and dealers have to either dump unsold stock or continue to pay interest on unsold stock.

Be aware, they will do almost any thing to get aging cars off the lot and their interest payment log as each month ENDS. the fleet manager does not care about salesman's commissions as much, and those add on's, well, you can wheel and deal as you play the game. They want money, but will they let $100 stand in the way of $21K?

Again YMMV.
Print out every thing, present that and see how it goes.
It got me into an Element still wrapped in plastic with 3 miles on the odometer.

Once they know you speak the language of numbers, everything changes when the sales manager, or fleet manager walks in the room.
Your insurance company already knows the deal.
If in doubt call em.

Not fussing, I'm driving.
Loving it between gas stations thought.:razz:
 

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Go to Edmunds.com, type your zip,etc...and get all the pricing info you need.

As far as working the dealer...just walk away. No amount of haggling will beat this simple action. Lastly, I always get my final pricing by email with the VIN for the vehicle on the lot. Always openly work with more than one dealer and let them know it is between each other and you will find your best deal. Lastly be honest and straight regardless of their actions. Dictate your own behavior on merit and remember you never "have" to buy anything.
 

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I've been getting 20-21 average mpg...I don't think that is a gas hog. My 04 Chevy 2500 pick up averaged about 11 mpg and 13 on the highway...that is a gas hog! Even my 1/2 ton Chevy's only managed about 14 around town and 18 on the highway. I supposed if you are coming from a 2wd car then 20 mpg around town isn't very great...but for an AWD vehicle that can do everything the E does...its still pretty good.
 

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MPGs are all relative.

If you are talking raw performance, then 20 MPGs from a 2.4L car that does 0-60 in about 9 seconds isn't great, not when 430 HP Vettes get 26-28 MPGs on the highway. But you add in the versatility, the fact that you get an AWD, five-star crash rated, cargo carrying mini tank and it starts to make sense.

I've seen the pictures of the people who have gotten into MAJOR accidents, and talked to someone who T-boned an Expedition at 40 mph and walked away with nothing more than a bruise, and I think that justifies the fact that the E weighs over 3500 lbs. and gets a little poorer fuel economy of say the Soul or the xB. When you're staring down a Suburban coming at you, wouldn't you trade a few MPGs for your ability to walk, or even your life?

On the topic though, just buy a certified used E and save yourself 4-5K like I did, let someone else take the new car $$$ hit. Personally, I would only buy new if the car was a high performance car, where I know the previous owner abused it, most of the Element owners I've met take really good car of their cars.
 

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I only averaged about 20-21 mpg in my WRX and that is a 2.5l...it did have double the HP...but its really the AWD that kills your mpg. I have to imagine that the 2wd E gets at least 10% better mpg than the AWD version. The xB and Soul are both 2wd and weight less. Also they cannot do the same things as the Element. I think the E is the most useful vehicle I have ever owned...and that includes a handful of pick-ups and hatch backs. With a small trailer there isn't anything I can't do with the E...aside from maybe tow 4000lbs...and that has only happened in my 34 years once.
 

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I used Costco.
I also used Costco after spending a month battling several dealers who wouldn't budge as no one had any stock remotely close to what I wanted. Costco was hassle free.
 

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Why is it that every where I go, people judge their manhood, intelligence, worth as a human being, whatever, based on their ability to beat a motorcycle/car/boat dealer out of every dollar of profit that they can? If you hate the people you are doing business with, why not find someone else. What is wrong with aiming for a transaction that gets you a decent deal and lets the dealer make a decent profit on his sale. Isn't he a human being? Isn't he just working for a living, trying to feed his family just like you? How you would you like to try to make a living selling something that everyone and his brother can look up and find out what you paid for it? Then they disregard your actual costs of doing business, deny you a reasonable profit and demand that you sell it to them at your cost or less? You would probably throw them out of your store. I feel bad for the obsessed folks that can't sleep at night thinking that there might be another person on the planet that paid a dollar less for the same car they are driving.
 

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The car salesman started it. And now there pissed off that we can play the game??? Cool. When they get mad at me I know I'm getting a good deal.:grin:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Crew, I tend to agree with a lot of what has been said here.
The MPG is the kind a thing I have to take into consideration, this is my first 4WD.

The rest was just a "Look what I learned along the way" journal.
And I'm sure a lot of you may have gone thru various dealer Jedi mind tricks too.
Very nice car for doing a lot of things, and very safe as well.

I also looked into the Costco, or Sam's club route, just didn't have the nerve [down payment money] to move on their pain free deals at that time.
Both offers were dealer cost + $300. From what I found out later, and verified here, the most painless.
You pick your color, accessories, etc.
No dealer add on's. Road test, finance, out the door.

The regular car sales person, usually a commission worker, by nature isn't so agreeable price wise.
He only eats what he catch's, or wears down by group
pressure, and stalling to play Jedi Mind Tricks :roll:

Only to end up frustrated because you don't know how to say, if you can match this price, I will buy "Today".

That "Today" word is kryptonite.
Even then, a higher power will enter into the room to question your resolve.

Some will give you the "Good Luck with that" hand shake, or just glare.
Depending on local competition among the dealers, yes, it all depends on where you live, the manager may call to agree or find a sweet spot to get that car off the lot, and money in the bank.
A 5% dealer profit aint bad money.

And as in all things men, if their ego or pride is involved, they will refuse to sell you the car, just because.....

Best bargain times: Presidents day, Memorial day, July 4th, Labor day, the last week of any month.

I drove my E to every hard ass's dealership that called or emailed me to check on how my search was going.

You know their response was the same: I could have saved you $200/$300/$500 if you stayed with me.....

Reminds me of horror stories people say about their X's :shock:
 

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As far as I can tell dealerships are full of things that look like people, but are not human. Dealerships are sick places. It is very similar to the smell of death. It is amazing to me the shenanigans that goes on. So if you don't like who you are doing business with go find some other clone, ass hat, douche licking, ball taster to do business with. I feel dirty after buying a car...like the priest has touched me in bad places. I have been driving for 17 years and have purchased somewhere around 14-15 cars. I consider myself an advanced car buyer at this point. Car salesperson = crackhead. Both are not human, nor have a soul. They are like large sacks of meat that roam around mostly unconscious with an appetite for only what you have...no matter how large or small...if you have it they need it...no matter how much they already have. Its almost as much fun taking your car in for service.

On another note...about MPG's...a 4WD or AWD system generally sees about a 20-25% drive train loss where your typical 2WD system only sees a loss of about 10-15% loss. Most people over look that fact that a 4WD while engaged or not has many more components turning all the time. This creates drag on the drive train and raises fuel consumption.
 

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Why is it that every where I go, people judge their manhood, intelligence, worth as a human being, whatever, based on their ability to beat a motorcycle/car/boat dealer out of every dollar of profit that they can? If you hate the people you are doing business with, why not find someone else. What is wrong with aiming for a transaction that gets you a decent deal and lets the dealer make a decent profit on his sale. Isn't he a human being? Isn't he just working for a living, trying to feed his family just like you? How you would you like to try to make a living selling something that everyone and his brother can look up and find out what you paid for it? Then they disregard your actual costs of doing business, deny you a reasonable profit and demand that you sell it to them at your cost or less? You would probably throw them out of your store. I feel bad for the obsessed folks that can't sleep at night thinking that there might be another person on the planet that paid a dollar less for the same car they are driving.
Let me guess: You paid the sticker price for every car you have purchased.:roll:
 

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Why is it that every where I go, people judge their manhood, intelligence, worth as a human being, whatever, based on their ability to beat a motorcycle/car/boat dealer out of every dollar of profit that they can? ...
Saturn tried the no-haggle, "everyone gets a fair shake" sales model. Everybody knows where that got 'em.
 

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Saturn tried the no-haggle, "everyone gets a fair shake" sales model. Everybody knows where that got 'em.
Saturn went out of business because they sold a product nobody wanted, and considering the kit car quality of every vehicle they ever sold up until 2007, I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did.

But every customer satisfaction survey I've ever seen consistantly ranked them in the top five, for sales and service. That was their only saving grace.

As far as salesman go, I've never really had an issue with them. I have always bought Certified Pre-owned (why buy new when you lose over $1k immediately after driving off the lot?), I have always known what I was looking for and how much it should cost (Kelly Blue Book), and I've always known that as long as I can get the color exterior and interior I want, I can always add on the extras that may be missing later (even find them on a forum for over half off!!!).

When you buy Certified pre-owned at a reputable dealer, you get

1. A 1 year warranty unless the car has under 30K miles, in which case you're still covered under the manufacturers.

2. You pay less for a car with usually less than 30K on it (I can't believe when I hear some people getting worried that their Honda has 60K miles on it!!!! People, you should expect your Honda to last 200K+ with regular mantainence!),

3. If you buy it Certified, it means any and all re-call issues were taken care of.

4. And for the few of you out there with souls and actually don't mind dealers making a profit, you don't have to worry about the dealer getting paid, because used cars are ALL PROFIT! That trade in you got $10K for they are re-selling for $15K with only investing about $1K in re-furbishing costs, if that.

Win win.
 

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FWIW I tried to use www.g1parts.com like the OP recommended.

I will never use that company again, after a 3 day run around I ended up getting told the parts I originally asked for are back ordered with no date of delivery given by Honda (they claimed to have searched every dealer in the U.S.A). However, when I walked into the local dealer they told me they could get them from OK and OH but it would take an extra day or two. The guy even showed me the screen stating where the clips were.

Only reason I didn't order right then was the price the dealership was asking was double what others were asking, and they wouldn't lower price even when I showed them the other dealers prices.

It would be nice if G1parts.com would have told me they couldn't get the item from the start instead of leading me along..

Now I'm off to find these 4 clips from someone else who will be honest and not waste my time. (seems to be a very hard thing to find in the auto dealership world)

EF
 

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Let me guess: You paid the sticker price for every car you have purchased.:roll:
Perhaps you need to reread my post. I asked what's wrong with you getting a decent deal and the dealer making a decent profit. There is a middle ground. Just because I say that I don't have to beat them out of every dollar doesn't mean that I am stupid. I just don't have to make the dealer lose money on the car to think I got a good deal. Most dealers will sell you a car at $300 to $500 over invoice (yes I know there is a hold back.) without having to spend hours haggling or driving from dealer to dealer to play them against each other. I have purchased new cars from 3 different dealers in my town and a few motorcycles. At the Ford dealer, the VW dealer, and the Honda bike dealer I was negotiating the price with the owner who in all cases was a very nice guy and a straight shooter. The service and parts departments in all three placed treated me like I was a Rolls Royce owner every time I came in. No one ever tried to sell me service I didn't need. I liked everyone I met that worked there. The VW service manager took me into the service bay once so a mechanic could explain how to do something I wanted to do myself on the car. These are good people that treat me well. Why do I need to go in there with a chip on my shoulder and prove my manhood by trying to beat them out of an honest profit on their sales? I give them a decent profit, they give me a decent deal. We both walk away happy. The Honda place I bought my car from is still an unknown to me but the sales process went smoothly. I told them what I wanted to pay for the car and what I wanted for my trades. I told them if they gave me the deal I wanted I would by a car in stock right then. It took a bit of wrangling to get him up to what I wanted for my trade but not too much. Today most of the dealer's money is made on service and used cars. You don't stay in business by consistently screwing your customers. Sure there are unscrupulous dealers and salesmen. I just don't do business with them. The mark up on home audio and video equipment is around 50%. Home appliances aren't much better. What is wrong with dealer wanting to make 3 to 5% gross on a car?

When at long last I finally grew up I realized a few things.

Life does not have to be a zero sum game. Every social or business transaction with another human being does not have to result in a winner and loser.

Most people mean well most of the time. If I don't get adversarial with them, most of the time they won't get that way with me. When offered an opportunity to do the right thing, most people will.

Money is not for keeping track of who is winning and losing at the game of life. It is a means of fairly exchanging goods and services with fellow human beings.

If I run into a jerk now and then. Probably he is a jerk. If nearly everyone I meet seems like a jerk, I need to take a long hard look in the mirror.

Perhaps I spend a few hundred dollars more a year by sticking to my way of looking at things but I sleep better and smile more and that is well worth it.:)
 
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