[affliction]

Looking to change my head unit on my new 09 SC. Been considering these three head units. What do you think is the best choice.

1. http://www.crutchfield.com/p_130AVIC110/Pioneer-AVIC-Z110BT.html?tp=20222

2. http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113DNX9140/Kenwood-Excelon-DNX9140.html?showAll=N&tp=20222

3. http://www.crutchfield.com/p_099AVN726E/Eclipse-AVN726E.html?tp=20222

 

[REZA]

It's a toss up between Pioneer & Kenwood. I've heard good things about both, but if it was my money, I'd go with the Pioneer, I've had owend many of their products over the years, never had a problem and they performed flawlessly every time. Just my two cents.

Welcome to the forum by the way...

 

[ElementaryEd]

Have the Kenwood DNX8120 and love it. Would buy a Kenwood again in a heartbeat. I'm sure the Pioneer is good as well.

 

[Yoda E SC]

It's a toss up between Pioneer & Kenwood. I've heard good things about both, but if it was my money, I'd go with the Pioneer, I've had owend many of their products over the years, never had a problem and they performed flawlessly every time. Just my two cents.

Welcome to the forum by the way...

i agree. we used to sell the pioneer and eclipse stuff and i am not a huge fan of the eclipse myself. i have an old pioneer avic d1 and it is still kicking after like 5 years with new map updates.

 

[jazzy007]

Pioneer has Gyro-sensor & speed pulse sensing capability. I don't recall seen Kenwood or Eclipse offer this feature. This is also offered in Honda's OEM Navi.

Without Gyro-sensor & speed sensing, GPS is next to useless if you are driving in heavily dense wood area. Try driving national forest road using GPS in redwood national forest, & count how many stop have to make to find clear sky. You will understand what do I mean.

 

[Yoda E SC]

the gyro sensors are built into all the units actually and any radio type gps unit (newer) will have a VSS hookup on it. all three of the above do, it is just a matter of personal preference really, i am just not partial to the eclipse myself.

 

[jazzy007]

the gyro sensors are built into all the units actually and any radio type gps unit (newer) will have a VSS hookup on it. all three of the above do, it is just a matter of personal preference really, i am just not partial to the eclipse myself.

I actually was not talking about simple gyro sensor implementation to track angular position, I was talking about combined gyro sensor with speed pulse sensing, & forward/reverse sensing, to allow gps working without clear view of sky, like inside the tunnel, around high rise building, or dense redwood forest. Both Pioneer & Honda OEM Navi will work w/o clear view of sky when on the road or inside the building. I don't know how many time I was really appreciated of this function, when I was going through confusing back roads in Santa Cruz mountain here in North CA w/o stopping.

I could not find a wire connection nor instruction required speed pulse sensing connection to the car from Kenwood or Eclipse's installation manual link.

In Pioneer's installation, it detail the requirement to connect to car's speed pulse sensing.

 

[Yoda E SC]

i stand corrected on the kenwood units. and that eclipse doesnt have the vss hook up like the avn6620 that i was thinking of. i have not put in that model eclipse as i have the 6620 that does have it. i would go with the pioneer anyway.

from what i can tell in service express (honda service site) unless the truck came with nav though you will not have anywhere to hook the vss wire up without using a speed pulse generator anyway. the navigation equipped vehicles have a blue/white wire at the ecm in the plug e pin 26 location, but the other models do not show it. just food for thought. you may be able to use a pinned wire to attach to it as i dont see them using a totally different ecm on the nav model, just not prewired kinda like our intermittent wiper thing. i can verify that the vss is not there on the 07 though even when you pin the connector at that location. the ecm is different on the older ones.

 

[jazzy007]

from what i can tell in service express (honda service site) unless the truck came with nav though you will not have anywhere to hook the vss wire up without using a speed pulse generator anyway. the navigation equipped vehicles have a blue/white wire at the ecm in the plug e pin 26 location, but the other models do not show it. just food for thought. you may be able to use a pinned wire to attach to it as i dont see them using a totally different ecm on the nav model, just not prewired kinda like our intermittent wiper thing. i can verify that the vss is not there on the 07 though even when you pin the connector at that location. the ecm is different on the older ones.

You might be right about the wire might not been there for non-Navi 2009.
I checked 2009 electrical manual, this is a BLU wire go from Navi to pin-2 of C454 connector, then go to ECM/PCM pin-26 of connector E.

But if I am installing a highend Navi, which require installation of head unit, GPS antenna, possible rear view camera, bluetooth microphone, & XM antenna, adding one wire from ECM to Navi & another one for forward/backup sensing probably is not going to be the biggest job amount all the installation. ;-)

 

[Yoda E SC]

You might be right about the wire might not been there for non-Navi 2009.
I checked 2009 electrical manual, this is a BLU wire go from Navi to pin-2 of C454 connector, then go to ECM/PCM pin-26 of connector E.

But if I am installing a highend Navi, which require installation of head unit, GPS antenna, possible rear view camera, bluetooth microphone, & XM antenna, adding one wire from ECM to Navi & another one for forward/backup sensing probably is not going to be the biggest job amount all the installation. ;-)

as long as you have the correct type of preterminated wire as the other plugs in the ecm, then i agree, it is not what i would consider hard. it is finding the correct terminal that isnt so easy, and he who started this thread with the question may not want to go thru that. the vss wire is not "required" on the pioneer units although it will make the "learning" time of the navigation unit shorter once it is installed. my d1 doesnt have the vss wire hooked up in it and it is just fine due to the topography of florida.

 

[jazzy007]

as long as you have the correct type of preterminated wire as the other plugs in the ecm, then i agree, it is not what i would consider hard. it is finding the correct terminal that isnt so easy, and he who started this thread with the question may not want to go thru that.

You are right about finding the right connector/terminal may not be easy, especially w/o right documentation. I have found Honda Electrical Troubleshooting manual is must have to find any electrical connection, at least for the pages related to the connection one need to find.

From 2009 Electrical Troubleshooting manual:

Here is schematic for Honda Navi. It show which photo or pin diagram to look for


Here is photo for connector C454


Here is pin diagram for connector C454


Here is photo for ECM/PCM connector-E


Here is pin diagram for ECM/PCM connector-E

 

[jazzy007]

the vss wire is not "required" on the pioneer units although it will make the "learning" time of the navigation unit shorter once it is installed. my d1 doesnt have the vss wire hooked up in it and it is just fine due to the topography of florida.

I am a little confused here. Need your help understand. Are you saying pioneer could actually "learned" car's current speed without connect to ECM/PCM speed pulse sensing, if GPS can't be acquired at that moment?

I could understand when GPS is lost & re-acquired again, it will re-calculate all the time & speed information, but the benefit of connect to VSS is for the exact moment GPS is not acquirable, due to not able to get clear sky, not before or after.

I learn this hard way with my old car & portable GPS when driving in SF downtown with high rise building & block of street tightly packed together, also learn it when driving in the shadow of redwood forest with lots of unmarked forest road. Both of time I had to stop frequently to wait for GPS to re-acquire. It is not a case with my E with build in GPS. It never miss a beat, regardless how many turn I made in the shadow of building or forest.

 

[Yoda E SC]

You are right about finding the right connector/terminal may not be easy, especially w/o right documentation. I have found Honda Electrical Troubleshooting manual is must have to find any electrical connection, at least for the pages related to the connection one need to find.

From 2009 Electrical Troubleshooting manual:

Here is schematic for Honda Navi. It show which photo or pin diagram to look for
View attachment 72586

Here is photo for connector C454
View attachment 72584

Here is pin diagram for connector C454
View attachment 72585

Here is photo for ECM/PCM connector-E
View attachment 72582

Here is pin diagram for ECM/PCM connector-E
View attachment 72583

yeah an since i run our tech department we have access to honda service express just like they do at the dealer and it costs a pretty penny. thing is that it doesnt tell you what actual terminal you need for that connector. i usually just go down to metra and they guys i know there help me out and get me what i need. if you are that good to look at a connector and the pins in it and can get what you need fro a tessco or mcm electronics more power to you.

 

[Yoda E SC]

I am a little confused here. Need your help understand. Are you saying pioneer could actually "learned" car's current speed without connect to ECM/PCM speed pulse sensing, if GPS can't be acquired at that moment?

I could understand when GPS is lost & re-acquired again, it will re-calculate all the time & speed information, but the benefit of connect to VSS is for the exact moment GPS is not acquirable, due to not able to get clear sky, not before or after.

I learn this hard way with my old car & portable GPS when driving in SF downtown with high rise building & block of street tightly packed together, also learn it when driving in the shadow of redwood forest with lots of unmarked forest road. Both of time I had to stop frequently to wait for GPS to re-acquire. It is not a case with my E with build in GPS. It never miss a beat, regardless how many turn I made in the shadow of building or forest.

there are actually 27 gps satellites in orbit, only 3 of which you need to triangulate location at any given time. the pioneer doesnt magically thru elementosis learn the actual movement of the vehicle as you stated, but rather the habits of the driver, the reaction by the gyro sensor in that vehicle (mounting pitch, yaw, etc) and wether or not you have a vss signal hooked up to it. most manufacturers wanted us to test drive the vehicle for at least 5 miles before returning the car to them when we installed a new gps. after that it would take upto a week of normal driving for the cursor movement to not be jerky on the screen without the vss wire. if you have NO view of the sky at all then it will not "know" your position regaurdless of if the vss is hooked up or it is just relying on the input form the gyro sensor. it is just a guestimate of the unit until gps is reaquired. does having the vss help in this guestimation? i believe it to, but it is far from being required and if the person who started this thread doesnt have access to somewhere he can get a pinned wire to insert into the ecm to hopefully get vss from it even though none of us know for sure that the ecm still puts the signal out on non nav models, then it doesnt really matter if the unit has a vss hookup or not. apparently it isnt a big enough concer for kenwood to put it on any of there new nav model or for eclipse to put it on the one he was asking about. i have a pioneer d1 that has the input for it and it is not hooked up cause the 07 doesnt put the signal out on said connector/pin location and it works just fine.

 

[jazzy007]

if you are that good to look at a connector and the pins in it and can get what you need fro a tessco or mcm electronics more power to you.

It is not bad for me. Looking at schematic, components, electrical layout, & understand their functionality is part of my daily job.

Just curious, does honda service express also have photo like in the electrical troubleshooting manual?

I won't be able to find the right connector/terminal, if not for the photo with color of connector housing clearly identified. Reading the right pin is easy, as long as my reading glasses is on.

 

[Yoda E SC]

it is part of mine too but not identifying the actual terminal type one would have to buy to pin it into the connector. i read electrical diagrams all day long and put the information into our database so that people in the field can actually make sense of it when doing audio and security installs, but when it comes to figuring out what actual terminal is needed i go see my metra buddys. that is a totally different animal than knowing terminal types unless you are looking at a gm service diagram that actually tells you connector number/information, not just colors and number of pins like honda. and yes those pictures that you put up are from service express, they must liscence them from honda or if it is actually a honda motor company book then it is just a paper form of service express' electrical section.

 

[jazzy007]

there are actually 27 gps satellites in orbit, only 3 of which you need to triangulate location at any given time. the pioneer doesnt magically thru elementosis learn the actual movement of the vehicle as you stated, but rather the habits of the driver, the reaction by the gyro sensor in that vehicle (mounting pitch, yaw, etc) and wether or not you have a vss signal hooked up to it. most manufacturers wanted us to test drive the vehicle for at least 5 miles before returning the car to them when we installed a new gps. after that it would take upto a week of normal driving for the cursor movement to not be jerky on the screen without the vss wire. if you have NO view of the sky at all then it will not "know" your position regaurdless of if the vss is hooked up or it is just relying on the input form the gyro sensor. it is just a guestimate of the unit until gps is reaquired. does having the vss help in this guestimation? i believe it to, but it is far from being required and if the person who started this thread doesnt have access to somewhere he can get a pinned wire to insert into the ecm to hopefully get vss from it even though none of us know for sure that the ecm still puts the signal out on non nav models, then it doesnt really matter if the unit has a vss hookup or not. apparently it isnt a big enough concer for kenwood to put it on any of there new nav model or for eclipse to put it on the one he was asking about. i have a pioneer d1 that has the input for it and it is not hooked up cause the 07 doesnt put the signal out on said connector/pin location and it works just fine.

It sounds reasonable to me.

I am the type of person always want to prepare for the worst, make sure I get the best value for the money I spent, & hate to have to made same mistake twice. Past experience in the high rise buildings & dense sequoia forest really tick me off in the past enough for me to ensure all of my GPS in the future have connection to VSS. If I need to slow down or stop for GPS to re-acquired for any reason, I will go back reading the good old fashion map. ;-)

One thing I am curious maybe you know, does Pioneer unit has Speed Sensing Volume Control (SSVC)?
If Pioneer made the effort to incorporate VSS connection, it should be very easy for them to incorporate SSVC into head unit.
Personally, I just could not live without this function, with both my wife's CRV & my E have Navi with this capability.

 

[jazzy007]

and yes those pictures that you put up are from service express, they must liscence them from honda or if it is actually a honda motor company book then it is just a paper form of service express' electrical section.

Yep. The book I have is generic Honda's own 2009 Electrical Troubleshooting manual, P/N 61SCV07EL. This is really an electronic geek's bible for E.

 

[Yoda E SC]

One thing I am curious maybe you know, does Pioneer unit has Speed Sensing Volume Control (SSVC)?
If Pioneer made the effort to incorporate VSS connection, it should be very easy for them to incorporate SSVC into head unit.
Personally, I just could not live without this function, with both my wife's CRV & my E have Navi with this capability.

not sure on that one but it is the main reason alot of gm and ford standard radios have the wire behind there even on base models. i can let the guys at pioneer know that it is a feature that would be appreciated in the foeld if it is not already there. i dont believe my wifes d3 to have it either but i am not positive on the newest ones since i dont go thru the manual more than to just get it hooked up right for someone and get them going.

 

[erickang411]

I have the Pioneer AVIC 910BT b/c it has builit in bluetooth, NAvi, DVD player, added a back up camera, built for IPOD controls, SD card reader, USB cable in the glove...its okay, I'm so spoiled...but I really dont like their Nav program.

Kinda wish I woulve look more into Kenwood b/c it uses Garmin Nav...other than that, its working for me...Oh, and it has Handsfree voice commands that doesnt understand me...Annoying...