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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I ran the element on a Mustang Dynamometer at Payn Technologies in Troy, Michigan, on July 3. It differs from the Dynojet as it constantly applies inertial force and calculates things such as drag and air resistance, making it a killer tuning dyno, but it doesn't put down big numbers. Expect an 18%/20% increase in numbers on a Dynojet.

Here's an article from a del Sol friend of mine about the Mustang Dyno:
http://www.hondaswap.com/~pills/mustangvsdynojet.html

I have an 03 AWD Automatic.

The first run wasn't anything special. The tech had to get used to the shift points of the Element's automatic. By the second pull, the K24's intake (yes, intake) manifold was baking hot. I get a reading:

97.4 hp @ 5450 rpm
99.4 lb-ft @ 3950 rpm

Just a fluke, I thought. I have 160hp at the flywheel. We let the Element cool down for around 45 minutes or so, and we made a final, beautiful looking run.

100.3 hp @ 5700 rpm
103.5 lb-ft @ 3950 rpm

By the way, here's the video.
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~eston/random/element_dyno.mpg
 

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hey man your pants are going to fall down.
 

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Am I seeing that the all-wheel-drive system kicked in?
Wouldn't this explain some of the power loss? (Distributed across 4 wheels instead of just the front)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Zarathustra, that was the technician... I was holding the camera :)

And yes, the AWD system was kicked in... that is some of the power loss, but nonetheless, I would expect more than 100.3 hp in awd mode (note this is an AWD dynamometer... do NOT test an AWD Element on a non-AWD dynamometer unless you want to cause serious drivetrain shock).

Now I know why I'm building exhaust systems. I NEED POWER!
 

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What does all this dyno babble mean? Break it down for us non too fast and furious types.
 

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[quote:83f7ad57aa="zarathustra"]What does all this dyno babble mean? Break it down for us non too fast and furious types.[/quote:83f7ad57aa]

It means that the car made crap power, and that Hondas 160hp claim is crap.

Technically.

What it REALLY translates to, is that the technician knew f&%$all, and didn't have any of the settings right, and got an incorrect reading. I spoke with Eston, and the technician didn't know what the shift points were, etc...etc...etc...and I'm pretty sure he didn't even know what gear he was in. I wouldn't fret just yet, I am 99% sure this dyno is false.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
This dyno is far from false. Matt, you know Honda's claim is 160hp at the flywheel... through a viscous all-wheel drivetrain and a slushbox 4-speed automatic, of course you're going to get some huge parasitic loss. 60hp? No way.

I'd expect this car to put 120 to the wheels in AWD mode on a Dynojet dyno. No more.
 

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[quote:7ff1c67792="qsilver074"]This dyno is far from false. Matt, you know Honda's claim is 160hp at the flywheel... through a viscous all-wheel drivetrain and a slushbox 4-speed automatic, of course you're going to get some huge parasitic loss. 60hp? No way.

I'd expect this car to put 120 to the wheels in AWD mode on a Dynojet dyno. No more.[/quote:7ff1c67792]

So is Honda saying 160 hp @ the flywheel......and is that for the front wheel drive cars only??.....damn if I had as much free time as some of you...( grrr I envy you single guys... :wink: )....I want to have both my cars dyno'd....nice video qsilver
 

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The car should put down between 120hp - 130hp (on a good day). A 38% drivetrain loss is dispicable. Even for a 4 speed AWD vehicle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
[quote:df388849c3="MatT3T4"]The car should put down between 120hp - 130hp (on a good day). A 38% drivetrain loss is dispicable. Even for a 4 speed AWD vehicle.[/quote:df388849c3]

Despicable, yes, but possible? Absolutely. You have to see what this car was built for. We aren't talking the efficient, race built AWD drivetrains of the DSM or the Lancer Evolution. These are AWD drivetrains with viscous LSDs made for a little extra traction in the snow, so I doubt Honda really cared much at all about the parasitic loss off the drivetrain.

To make things worse, you know that Honda 4-speed automatics are notoriously terrible...
 

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[quote:4449bf5a90="qsilver074"]

To make things worse, you know that Honda 4-speed automatics are notoriously terrible...[/quote:4449bf5a90]

Can you elaborate a bit, please? I didn't realize that the Honda automatics had a reputation for anything except reliability.
 

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I think they were talking about the automatics being notoriously terrible for "loss of power", not anything to do with reliability. :?:
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
[quote:d7a642b165="aristoBrat"]I think they were talking about the automatics being notoriously terrible for "loss of power", not anything to do with reliability. :?:[/quote:d7a642b165]

Yeah :)

They're definitely reliable, but their parasitic loss is nuts...
 

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qsilver074 I am going to dyno my wifes E 2wd auto after we get a 1000 mi on it. I have heard that Hondamatics do eat up alot of power. My 92 GSR when stock was 160 flywheel hp & 140whp. So I am guessing that her E should be around 120 or so also how many miles are on your E. If your rings have not seated yet then your cr will not be at its best.
 

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[quote:c86bafa35c="qsilver074"][quote:c86bafa35c="MatT3T4"]The car should put down between 120hp - 130hp (on a good day). A 38% drivetrain loss is dispicable. Even for a 4 speed AWD vehicle.[/quote:c86bafa35c]

Despicable, yes, but possible? Absolutely. You have to see what this car was built for. We aren't talking the efficient, race built AWD drivetrains of the DSM or the Lancer Evolution. These are AWD drivetrains with viscous LSDs made for a little extra traction in the snow, so I doubt Honda really cared much at all about the parasitic loss off the drivetrain.

To make things worse, you know that Honda 4-speed automatics are notoriously terrible...[/quote:c86bafa35c]

Does the auto tranny have a locking torque converter?

I saw the dyno video and I was wondering why the transfer case would transfer power to the rear when there is no loss of traction? According to honda the AWD system is only on demand when the front wheels slip.
 

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Not knowing a damn thing about dynos (which is a shame, because I did IT contracting at Siemens Automotive and they had a cool dyno lab there, but some of the guys there would talk your ear off, so I stayed away instead of asking questions like I wanted to) ...

Is there any chance that the "thing" the Elements front wheels were on was spinning so 'freely' (like they would on ice) that the Element thought the front wheels were actually slipping so it gave power to the back ones too?
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
[quote:27e8308ec5="Ming"]

Does the auto tranny have a locking torque converter?

I saw the dyno video and I was wondering why the transfer case would transfer power to the rear when there is no loss of traction? According to honda the AWD system is only on demand when the front wheels slip.[/quote:27e8308ec5]

Yes, I am fairly sure it has a locking torque converter.

Also, I was wondering the same thing about traction. Honda told me to run it on an AWD dynamometer due to drivetrain damage otherwise, so I listened.
 

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If the dyno's are correct you are suggesting 100-120hp at the wheel, right? That makes Injen's claim of 8-10hp at the wheel even more impressive, that's a 10% gain, I'll ask them in my e-mail how they measured the hp at the wheel claim... wonder what a 5 speed E would pull, i test drove a 5 spd. but went with the slush box for traffic and convenience.
 

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The reason the rear end is spinning is because the front end is. The "slip" that's required to automatically engage the rear drive isn't a side to side slip, it's a front to rear slip. So, if the front end is spinning and the rear end is not, the system will "engage" and deliver power to the rear differential.

The way I understand it, there's basically a hydraulic pump at each diff. These two pumps are connected together in a loop and as long they're both pumping relatively the same amount of fluid, the rear is not engaged. When slippage occurs, there is higher pressure on the front to rear line because the front pump is spinning faster than the rear pump and this causes a set of clutch plates to lock up in the rear diff's input shaft which allows power to go to the rear differential. Simplified definition of my understanding only.
 
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