ebrake and slope, how much is OK?
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Have you tightened up the hand brake yet? There's a procedure on here about how to do it. Sounds like your brake handle may just be loose.
The tension on the ebrake cable seems fine, the brakes lock up, but when the ebrake is engaged the car will rock forward and back with a clunk when the stops (or whatever is catching) hit.
I sometimes use the ebrake to stop the car nice big clunk when they grab on.
Not a fatal thing but will get it looked at now that I know it is my E and not E's in general with this behavior.
-David
I sometimes use the ebrake to stop the car nice big clunk when they grab on.
Not a fatal thing but will get it looked at now that I know it is my E and not E's in general with this behavior.
-David
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835 Posts
dave,,the e-brake has shoes inside the rear rotors...maybe a spring broke or a shoe broke,,just have your machanic pop off the rear rotors and inspect the e-brake shoes..
"eBrake"? What is that, Apple Speak? That thing you apply by pulling up on a handle between the front seats is a parking brake.
If the cable is properly adjusted and the parking brake itself is OK, pulling up the parking brake handle 4 clicks should produce significant amount of drag on a level surface, pulling up the handle beyond 7 clicks should require a dramatic increase in the amount of needed force.
The vehicle could move 3-4 inches downhill when transferring from the hydraulic brakes to the parking brake, as the brake shoe pivots more firmly against the drum. When parked on an incline in addition to applying the parking brake, turn the front wheels in the direction that would cause the vehicle to toward the shoulder of the road if the brake were released.
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It finally hit me that what you describe is the brake NOT GOING ON AT ALL. That's the regular slop in an automatic transmission put in park. Your EMERGENCY brake (also used as a parking brake) is the required mechanical backup system on all cars & trucks in case the hydraulic system fails so you really ought to get it fixed.
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15,320 Posts
Let's please avoid fruitless debate over whether the hand brake is for parking or emergencies. Clearly people use it for both. If you're moving along and try to slow down but the brake pedal goes to the floor, are you going to say, "Well I'd grab that handle, but it's only for parking"?
Rolling, rolling, rolling . . .
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regu.../fmcsrruletext.aspx?chunkkey=090163348008f292
The D.O.T. refers to the mechanical system as the Parking Brake. Nowhere outside Honda's index of the English language Element Owners manual is it called anything other than a Parking Brake, and, "Backup system means a portion of a service brake system, such as a pump, that automatically supplies energy, in the event of a primary brake power source failure."
Part 571.105: Standard No. 105; Hydraulic and electric brake systems.
Scope and Purpose:
This standard specifies requirements for vehicles equipped with hydraulic and electric service brake systems, and associated parking brake systems. The purpose of this standard is to insure safe braking performance under normal and emergency conditions.
Application:
Hydraulically braked or electrically braked passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, and buses with a GVWR greater than 3,500 kg (7,716 lb) "
The requirements for a Parking Brake System can be satisfied by a automatic transmission if it includes a parking mechanism and the vehicle has to be in the Park position when the key is removed. There are NO requirements for the Parking Brake to be able to stop the vehicle once in motion. As best I can determine, Honda doesn't have to provide a separate mechanical Parking Brake on Elements equipped with automatic transmissions to meet D.O.T requirements.
But considering the recent recall for ignition switch/ parking position interlock failures, it's probably a good thing that they did.
"S5.2 Parking Brake System. Each vehicle shall be manufactured with a parking brake system of a friction type with a solely mechanical means to retain engagement, which shall under the conditions of S6, when tested according to the procedures specified in S7, meet the requirements specified in S5.2.1, S5.2.2, or S5.2.3 as appropriate, with the system engaged-
(a) In the case of a vehicle with a GVWR of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) or less, with a force applied to the control not to exceed 125 pounds for a foot-operated system and 90 pounds for a hand-operated system; and
(b) In the case of a vehicle with a GVWR greater than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), with a force applied to the control not to exceed 150 pounds for a foot-operated system and 125 pounds for a hand-operated system.
S5.2.1. Except as provided in §5.2.2, the parking brake system on a passenger car and on a school bus with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or less shall be capable of holding the vehicle stationary (to the limit of traction on the braked wheels) for 5 minutes in both a forward and reverse direction on a 30 percent grade.
S5.2.2 A vehicle of a type described in S5.2.1 at the option of the manufacturer may meet the requirements of S5.2.2.1, S5.2.2.2, and S5.2.2.3 instead of the requirements of S5.2.1 if:
(a) The vehicle has a transmission or transmission control which incorporates a parking mechanism, and
(b) The parking mechanism must be engaged before the ignition key can be removed.
S5.2.2.1 The vehicle’s parking brake and parking mechanism, when both are engaged, shall be capable of holding the vehicle stationary (to the limit of traction of the braked wheels) for 5 minutes, in both forward and reverse directions, on a 30 percent grade.
S5.2.2.2 The vehicle’s parking brake, with the parking mechanism not engaged, shall be capable of holding the vehicle stationary for 5 minutes, in both forward and reverse directions, on a 20 percent grade.
S5.2.2.3 With the parking mechanism engaged and the parking brake not engaged, the parking mechanism shall not disengage or fracture in a manner permitting vehicle movement, when the vehicle is impacted at each end, on a level surface, by a barrier moving at 2 1/2 mph.
S5.2.3 (a) The parking brake system on a multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck or bus (other than a school bus) with a GVWR of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) or less shall be capable of holding the vehicle stationary for 5 minutes, in both forward and reverse directions, on a 20 percent grade.
(b) The parking brake system on a multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck, or bus (including a school bus) with a GVWR greater than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) shall be capable of holding the vehicle stationary for 5 minutes, in both forward and reverse directions, on a 20 percent grade."
AND
"S7.7 Parking brake test. The parking brake tests for any vehicle on different grades, in different directions, and for different loads may be conducted in any order. The force required for actuation of a hand-operated brake system shall be measured at the center of the hand grip area or at a distance of 1 1/2 inches from the end of the actuation lever, as illustrated in Figure II."
AND
"S7.7.1Test procedure for requirements of S5.2.1 and S5.2.3.
S7.7.1.1 Condition the parking brake friction elements so that the temperature at the beginning of the test is at any level not more than 150 °F. (when the temperature of components on both ends of an axle are averaged).
S7.7.1.2 Drive the vehicle, loaded to GVWR, onto the specified grade with the longitudinal axis of the vehicle in the direction of the slope of the grade, stop the vehicle and hold it stationary by application of the service brake control, and place the transmission in neutral.
S7.7.1.3 With the vehicle held stationary by means of the service brake control, apply the parking brake by a single application of the force specified in (a), (b), or (c) of this paragraph, except that a series of applications to achieve the specified force may be made in the case of a parking brake system design that does not allow the application of the specified force in a single application:
(a) In the case of a passenger car or other vehicle with a GVWR of 10,000 lbs. or less, not more than 125 pounds for a foot-operated system, and not more than 90 pounds for a hand-operated system; and
(b) In the case of a vehicle with a GVWR greater than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) not more than 150 pounds for a foot-operated system, and not more than 125 pounds for a hand-operated system.
(c) For a vehicle using an electrically-activated parking brake, apply the parking brake by activating the parking brake control.
S7.7.1.4 Following the application of the parking brake in accordance with S7.7.1.3, release all force on the service brake control and commence the measurement of time if the vehicle remains stationary. If the vehicle does not remain stationary, reapplication of the service brake to hold the vehicle stationary, with reapplication of a force to the parking brake control at the level specified in S7.7.1.3 (a) or (b) as appropriate for the vehicle being tested (without release of the ratcheting or other holding mechanism of the parking brake) may be used twice to attain a stationary position.
S7.7.1.5 Following observation of the vehicle in a stationary condition for the specified time in one direction, repeat the same test procedure with the vehicle orientation in the opposite direction on the specified grade.
S7.7.1.6 Check the operation of the parking brake application indicator required by S5.3.1(d)."
Old myths die hard.
http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regu.../fmcsrruletext.aspx?chunkkey=090163348008f292
The D.O.T. refers to the mechanical system as the Parking Brake. Nowhere outside Honda's index of the English language Element Owners manual is it called anything other than a Parking Brake, and, "Backup system means a portion of a service brake system, such as a pump, that automatically supplies energy, in the event of a primary brake power source failure."
Part 571.105: Standard No. 105; Hydraulic and electric brake systems.
Scope and Purpose:
This standard specifies requirements for vehicles equipped with hydraulic and electric service brake systems, and associated parking brake systems. The purpose of this standard is to insure safe braking performance under normal and emergency conditions.
Application:
Hydraulically braked or electrically braked passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles, trucks, and buses with a GVWR greater than 3,500 kg (7,716 lb) "
The requirements for a Parking Brake System can be satisfied by a automatic transmission if it includes a parking mechanism and the vehicle has to be in the Park position when the key is removed. There are NO requirements for the Parking Brake to be able to stop the vehicle once in motion. As best I can determine, Honda doesn't have to provide a separate mechanical Parking Brake on Elements equipped with automatic transmissions to meet D.O.T requirements.
But considering the recent recall for ignition switch/ parking position interlock failures, it's probably a good thing that they did.
"S5.2 Parking Brake System. Each vehicle shall be manufactured with a parking brake system of a friction type with a solely mechanical means to retain engagement, which shall under the conditions of S6, when tested according to the procedures specified in S7, meet the requirements specified in S5.2.1, S5.2.2, or S5.2.3 as appropriate, with the system engaged-
(a) In the case of a vehicle with a GVWR of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) or less, with a force applied to the control not to exceed 125 pounds for a foot-operated system and 90 pounds for a hand-operated system; and
(b) In the case of a vehicle with a GVWR greater than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds), with a force applied to the control not to exceed 150 pounds for a foot-operated system and 125 pounds for a hand-operated system.
S5.2.1. Except as provided in §5.2.2, the parking brake system on a passenger car and on a school bus with a GVWR of 10,000 pounds or less shall be capable of holding the vehicle stationary (to the limit of traction on the braked wheels) for 5 minutes in both a forward and reverse direction on a 30 percent grade.
S5.2.2 A vehicle of a type described in S5.2.1 at the option of the manufacturer may meet the requirements of S5.2.2.1, S5.2.2.2, and S5.2.2.3 instead of the requirements of S5.2.1 if:
(a) The vehicle has a transmission or transmission control which incorporates a parking mechanism, and
(b) The parking mechanism must be engaged before the ignition key can be removed.
S5.2.2.1 The vehicle’s parking brake and parking mechanism, when both are engaged, shall be capable of holding the vehicle stationary (to the limit of traction of the braked wheels) for 5 minutes, in both forward and reverse directions, on a 30 percent grade.
S5.2.2.2 The vehicle’s parking brake, with the parking mechanism not engaged, shall be capable of holding the vehicle stationary for 5 minutes, in both forward and reverse directions, on a 20 percent grade.
S5.2.2.3 With the parking mechanism engaged and the parking brake not engaged, the parking mechanism shall not disengage or fracture in a manner permitting vehicle movement, when the vehicle is impacted at each end, on a level surface, by a barrier moving at 2 1/2 mph.
S5.2.3 (a) The parking brake system on a multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck or bus (other than a school bus) with a GVWR of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) or less shall be capable of holding the vehicle stationary for 5 minutes, in both forward and reverse directions, on a 20 percent grade.
(b) The parking brake system on a multipurpose passenger vehicle, truck, or bus (including a school bus) with a GVWR greater than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) shall be capable of holding the vehicle stationary for 5 minutes, in both forward and reverse directions, on a 20 percent grade."
AND
"S7.7 Parking brake test. The parking brake tests for any vehicle on different grades, in different directions, and for different loads may be conducted in any order. The force required for actuation of a hand-operated brake system shall be measured at the center of the hand grip area or at a distance of 1 1/2 inches from the end of the actuation lever, as illustrated in Figure II."
AND
"S7.7.1Test procedure for requirements of S5.2.1 and S5.2.3.
S7.7.1.1 Condition the parking brake friction elements so that the temperature at the beginning of the test is at any level not more than 150 °F. (when the temperature of components on both ends of an axle are averaged).
S7.7.1.2 Drive the vehicle, loaded to GVWR, onto the specified grade with the longitudinal axis of the vehicle in the direction of the slope of the grade, stop the vehicle and hold it stationary by application of the service brake control, and place the transmission in neutral.
S7.7.1.3 With the vehicle held stationary by means of the service brake control, apply the parking brake by a single application of the force specified in (a), (b), or (c) of this paragraph, except that a series of applications to achieve the specified force may be made in the case of a parking brake system design that does not allow the application of the specified force in a single application:
(a) In the case of a passenger car or other vehicle with a GVWR of 10,000 lbs. or less, not more than 125 pounds for a foot-operated system, and not more than 90 pounds for a hand-operated system; and
(b) In the case of a vehicle with a GVWR greater than 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) not more than 150 pounds for a foot-operated system, and not more than 125 pounds for a hand-operated system.
(c) For a vehicle using an electrically-activated parking brake, apply the parking brake by activating the parking brake control.
S7.7.1.4 Following the application of the parking brake in accordance with S7.7.1.3, release all force on the service brake control and commence the measurement of time if the vehicle remains stationary. If the vehicle does not remain stationary, reapplication of the service brake to hold the vehicle stationary, with reapplication of a force to the parking brake control at the level specified in S7.7.1.3 (a) or (b) as appropriate for the vehicle being tested (without release of the ratcheting or other holding mechanism of the parking brake) may be used twice to attain a stationary position.
S7.7.1.5 Following observation of the vehicle in a stationary condition for the specified time in one direction, repeat the same test procedure with the vehicle orientation in the opposite direction on the specified grade.
S7.7.1.6 Check the operation of the parking brake application indicator required by S5.3.1(d)."
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I can only repeat my previous point: If the hydraulic brakes fail, is it better to use the hand brake, or to crash?
Nomenclature aside, the important thing, which surely we all agree on, is that for safety, the hand-brake system should be maintained in correct working order. There are two adjustments, one at the wheel and one at the handle. The shoes should be adjusted first, then the cable tension if necessary.
Nomenclature aside, the important thing, which surely we all agree on, is that for safety, the hand-brake system should be maintained in correct working order. There are two adjustments, one at the wheel and one at the handle. The shoes should be adjusted first, then the cable tension if necessary.
I wouldn't use it because I know it's better to steer into my safety zone escape route*, keep both hands on the wheel while continuing to try the service brakes, and steer into a safer position. (*- if you don't know what this is, and/or don't always try to maintain one, you should.)
Total hydraulic system failures without warning of properly maintained passenger vehicles are so rare that it's moot. Cars careening without warning down narrow mountain roads with no escape routes happen in mystery movies more than in real life.
The most important part we should agree on is that owner/driver knowledge and skills should be maintained first. After that, the SERVICE BRAKE system WILL be maintained in excellent working order first, the tires and steering system WILL BE maintained, and then so will all the other safety systems.
Of all these, owner/driver knowledge and skill has more influence on "accidents" than any other factor. Most "accidents" aren't, they are inevitable results of bad driving and bad maintenance, AKA reckless indifference of the nut behind the wheel. Would it were that reckless meant wreckless.
As far as stopping a vehicle with the Parking Brake goes, it might make sense if you stopped in Neutral, you forgot to set the parking brake, and the vehicle started slowly rolling. Even then it would be smarter to step on the service brake first and look to steer the vehicle into the least dangerous path. Even without power assist, service brakes are more effective, and you can maintain steering control.
Smart owner/drivers don't waste time on "Hail Mary" last ditch efforts until they are just that - last efforts - after all other measures (including scheduled preventive maintenance) to avoid a collision fail.
Stupid owner/drivers ignore safety system maintenance, fail to maintain safe intervals between their vehicle and traffic in front of them, and never consider maintaining an escape path.
RANT- Unfortunately, every time I'm on an interstate, it seems like one of these ignoramuses is right behind me, talking to his passengers (probably bitching about his insurance rates), drinking something, smoking something, texting, shaving, applying makeup or all of the aforementioned. They're are like a man falling from a 10 story building, calling out at each floor, "I'm OK, no problem" until they hit an aware pedestrian walking below.
The parking brake doesn't trigger the brake lights.:shock: The service brake pedal, even when the hydraulic system degrades, does.
I might scream, but I'd be too busy with my foot on the brake pedal, both hands on the wheel, trying to steer to avoid being run over by the tailgater behind me to say anything.:-(
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I love how you reminded us that no law says (blah-blah)... I have this mental image of a driver merrily debating the points of the law with the EMT's all the way in to the E-room. :lol: Really, if there's an emergency and I need to do something I wasn't expecting, my thoughts aren't filled with scores of of DOT regs, manufacturer recommendations, etc. What I see is a quick "Hey... That'll work! WOW!"
What I DO like about the Honda system is how it's different from the system I had on my GM trucks. The emergency brake was only a different way of using the same brake shoes that the rear wheels used for normal stopping and while they could slow the truck to a stop eventually if used in a brake failure (and that DID happen to me when I lost the master cylinder) the system was poor at best for holding it in place, especially in reverse. The Honda disc/drum version is solid and gives me more confidence that it'll work as needed - assuming the cable linkage is more reliable over time than the GM parts. They usually rusted solid after 30-50k miles even with regular lubing.
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