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c/n: Auto bailout didn't pass.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/11/auto.bailout/index.html

(CNN) -- Senate Democrats and the White House failed to find 60 votes to end debate on a $14 billion auto bailout bill and bring it to a vote Thursday night, killing the measure for the year.
Sen. Tom Coburn, center, and other Republican senators raised objections to the auto bailout plan Wednesday.

Sen. Tom Coburn, center, and other Republican senators raised objections to the auto bailout plan Wednesday.

The 52-35 vote followed the collapse of negotiations between Senate Democrats and Republicans seeking a compromise.

"We have worked and worked and we can spend all night tonight, tomorrow, Saturday, and Sunday, and we're not going to get to the finish line," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said on the Senate floor before the vote. "That's just the way it is. There's too much difference between the two sides."

Reid acknowledged the bill would not survive the procedural vote.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell said the sticking point was the United Auto Workers' refusal to set a "date certain" to put employees at U.S. auto manufacturers at "parity pay" with U.S. employees at foreign automakers in the United States.

Currently, analysts estimate the union workers at U.S. automakers make about $3 to $4 per hour more than the non-union U.S. employees of foreign automakers like Toyota and Honda, according to the Center for Automotive Research.

The House easily passed the bailout bill earlier this week, but it quickly ran into trouble in the Senate, where Republicans objected to several provisions. Negotiations Thursday involved a compromise proposal put forward by Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tennessee, but the senators could not reach agreement.
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* CNN/Money: Senate edges closer to auto bailout deal

The collapse of negotiations could possibly doom General Motors to a bankruptcy and closure in the coming weeks, with Chrysler potentially following close behind.

While Ford Motor has more cash on hand to avoid an immediate crisis, its production could be disrupted by problems in the supplier base, as could the production of overseas automakers with U.S. plants such as Toyota Motor and Honda Motor.

The struggling automakers may get some money anyway.

As part of their effort to urge skeptical Republicans to back the deal, Bush officials made clear that if Congress didn't act, the White House would have to step in to save Detroit from collapse with funds from the Troubled Asset Relief Program, according to the sources familiar with the conversations.

One of the sources said that a White House official made it clear to a GOP senator that would be the worst option, because the loan could go to the auto companies with few or no requirements along with it.

The sources asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of private conversations.

Democrats pressed the White House from the start to help Detroit by using some of the $700 billion for the financial sector, but the White House and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson refused.

"I would only hope that the president, who has worked so well with us for the past several weeks, would now consider using the TARP money," Reid said after Thursday night's vote.
 

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Fark em...let em fail. Greedy bastages. I didn't want my tax dollars going to fix a business poorly run by greedy crapheads anyway. If they really wanted to keep their jobs, the UAW should have conceded, but no they felt greed was the better way to go and the Senate said well then GTFO.

Sad thing is they'll still get some kind of financial help, will learn no lessons, and things in this country will continue the way they have been. Sigh.
 

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You should see the doom and gloom look on peoples faces here in Michigan this morning. When you walk into a business or a job site you literally seem to be walking thourgh a fog of darkness.
Irregardless of where you stand on a auto loan (bail out) the sight ain't pretty.

I am not going to defend the industry. But...if it should come to pass that all three go down there is not a person reading this that will not feel pain in their pocketbook. Regardless of what you do for a living.
 

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I don't feel bad for the companies, I do however feel bad for some of the lower employees. The unions ruined everything. For years they have pushed for higher benefits and pay, yet they are still putting out POS cars. I can only think of a handful of "Big 3" cars that have been made in the last 5 years that I would even consider driving (probably not consider owning though). These failing companies are asking for BILLIONS of dollars as a TEMPORARY fix. If they were to receive the funds, they would blow through it in a matter of months and we would be right back where we started. These companies have been posting multi billion dollar losses in recent history, yet they think that $14 Billion over 3 companies is going to save the industry :rolleyes:
 

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don't think for a moment that this is over. there WILL be a bailout. the union WILL get their way; they will make some sort of "concession" but nothing that will really matter.
Nancy and Harry will not let this happen. remember, unions are HUGE supporters of the democratic party. this will go down just like the financial institution bailout went down.
stay tuned to fox news.....
 

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I deal with local car dealers and my best accounts are GM and Ford franchises.
All their employees are now scared to death about the outcome of possible bankruptcies- along with me. I can't replace accounts that good with others in my territory.

The stupidity of the big three- GM and Chrysler are worse than Ford about this- they put most of their design and quality control into full size pick-up trucks. All three still build better trucks than Toyota or Nissan, but GM and Chrysler- no matter how good the original designs- can't keep consistent quality control on their cars. Plus they package their cars in silly trim level/option packages.

Case in point- the nice, new Chevy Malibu. The dealers in my area WANT 4 cyl. base models with cloth interior, CD, PW,PL,Cruise. tilt, ABS and the 6 seed auto to price out around $22,500 and hit the Camry LE/Accord LX/Altima S bread and butter price mark. Chevy, however MAKES them order more of the high end V-6 LT, leather- buckets, Nav, blah, blah packages with bling bling wheels priced at $29,000 and they can't GIVE those away. (An '09 Impala LT can be had for less with rebates!!) The V-6 models have also come down with a case of GM "intake itis"- the old gasket failures and oil leaks.

Ford realized a few years ago that it need higher quality cars. The Fusion and Merc Milan along with the Taurus X and the Escape have all been well thought out and built cars- people still don't cross shop them with the import competition thinking they are still the same old Ford crap.

All three corporations have so damn many vice presidents and managers, a memo listing them all would look like the Chicago metro phone book!
They need to slim down the fat top end and THEN negotiate realistic wage and benefit packages with the rank and file.

We all need to hope the American Auto industry doesn't go belly up- too many jobs in too many towns depend on it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I will agree, working with ALL manufacturers' cars on a daily basis, that Ford has indeed made many strides in quality, design, and function. GM and Chrysler, try but fail. The pricing really seems to be what's killing them, and I personally believe it's mostly do to the greedy unions.

I work with a retired UAW man, who is only employed at my shop because he just wants to not be bored (read: works 4 hours a day 4 days a week). He often has buddies who also worked the line come in to our shop and my coworkers and I get the privileged to listen to their takes on this situation. Firstly, this man gets paid far more NOT to work than I make with overtime. Secondly, overhearing a conversation between these two gentlemen, I will paraphrase the brunt of it.

"They want all them workers to take a pay cut to get that bailout."
"It's a damn shame, I know."
"Why don't those politicians take the damn paycuts!?"
"Preach on, Brother."

Apparently, they'd rather have the chance to completely lose their jobs than take a snip out of their already massive paycheck.

You can bet, that if any of the big 3 restructure, and begin hiring non-union employees at competitive rates with the American/Foreign car companies, I will be standing in line.
 

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Read it earlier this morning. I'm pretty much on the same page: let the companies fark themselves to death, but it's going to be horrible for the lower employees. I've been a fan of bankruptcy for the Big 3 for quite a while because, realistically, that's the only way they're going to be able to free themselves from the UAW shackles.

On the other hand, they also need to boot most of their mid-to-upper management and greatly streamline that aspect. They're the ones who are pushing and approving turdmobiles and steering the company policies which have largely gotten them into this mess of public buyer-antipathy.

Do I wish the best for them? You bet I do. I hope they emerge from this streamlined and competitive, putting out great models with great reliability and stiffer competition to the Japanese and other brands. Do I think they'll get there? Sadly no...:sad:



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Discussion Starter #9
I hope...

GM: Bankrupts
GM: Restructures and loses the Union (hires me instead :razz: )
GM: Makes Opels and Vauxhaulls
GM: Spends more than $2.72 advertising their exciting products
 

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GM's also going to be cutting production by 250,000 units in 1Q '09:

http://www.freep.com/article/20081212/BUSINESS01/81212044

General Motors Corp., which is involved in a last-ditch effort to garner federal funds to help it survive through January, confirmed this morning that it is slashing approximately 250,000 units of production in the first quarter by shutting down most North American assembly plants for about 30% of the first quarter.
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A GM spokesman would not say which plants have been affected, but said the company would likely make an announcement later today.

The 250,000 units of production include 60,000 units of car and truck production already cut last week.

Workers at GM’s Kansas City, Kan., car plant this morning said they were notified this morning that they will be down from the holidays through Feb. 9.

Workers at GM’s Kansas City, Kan., car plant and its Spring Hill, Tenn., crossover plant this morning said they were notified this morning that they will be down from the holidays through Feb. 9.

On Thursday, GM informed workers in Mansfield, Ohio, of plans to lay off at least 300 workers indefinitely beginning next Friday and plans to reduce production by two weeks in January.

GM, like the rest of the U.S. auto industry, has seen its sales fall dramatically in the past few months amid rising anxiety about the economy and an all-but-frozen credit market.

GM has already announced significant production cuts and plans to close five plants on accelerated schedules in the past few months.

However, with GM burning through cash and still awaiting word on federal loans to help it survive until late January, several industry experts have said GM would have to make even deeper production cuts and idle more plants over the next several months.


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and Honda

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2008/12/08/daily39.html

Honda Motor Co. Ltd. is reducing production again in response to dwindling sales.

The automaker will cut another 119,000 units from its plan across all North American facilities in the remaining months of its fiscal year, ending March 31, including a 58,000-vehicle cut at its Marysville and East Liberty auto assembly plants. Honda will also make cuts at its newly opened Civic plant in Greensburg, Ind.

The company previously announced a 38,000-unit cut in October and an 18,000-unit reduction in November.

Honda’s sales for the first 11 months of the calendar year were down 6 percent to 1.34 million vehicles, from 1.42 million through the same period of 2007, including monthly declines of 24 percent in September, 25 percent in October and 32 percent in November.

The 175,000 total cut in planned production is a 12 percent drop from Honda’s original plan for the year of 1.46 million vehicles.

Ron Lietzke, spokesman for Honda of America Manufacturing Inc., the company’s U.S. production arm, said the company will achieve the cuts with a mix of non-production days and a reduction in daily production rates. He declined to disclose the new daily production rate or non-production days, but said they expect to cut between four and seven days in January.

It will be the third time this year Honda has removed production days from the Monday to Friday work schedule, following a two-day cut in May at the Marysville plant and a two-day cut scheduled for Dec. 22 and 23 at both the Marysville and East Liberty facilities.

“We continue to manage our business carefully and strategically to meet the needs of our customers while maintaining stable production and employment,” Lietzke said in a written statement. “We are confident we will remain strong and prepared when the economy strengthens and customer demand increases.”

The Marysville plant, which will reduce production by 39,000 additional vehicles through March, produces the Accord sedan and coupe, the Acura TL sedan and RDX sport utility vehicle, while East Liberty, which will cut manufacturing by 19,000 units, makes the Civic, CR-V and Element SUVs. The reductions announced in November totaled 6,000 vehicles between both plants.

Cuts also will occur at Honda’s Lincoln, Ala., assembly plant, which builds the Odyssey and Pilot; and the Alliston, Ontario facility, which makes Civics, Pilots, the Ridgeline truck and the Acura MDX.

Honda employs about 2,750 people at its engine plant in Anna. The company also operates a 600,000-square-foot distribution hub in Troy.
 

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and only becasue I absolutely love to throw gasoline on a blaring fire... some thoughts in defense of a "bail out". We have been bailing out in this country a long time.

from the news. some thoughts from the UAW

Since 1992, states where we have transplants have located have put in over $3 billion dollars in incentives and I would point out that is the money that the state settled for and I want to go specifically to Alabama if I could for a minute. We have Hyundai Motor Company that got $252 million in incentives. Toyota there got $29 million in incentives. Honda, $158 million and Mercedes $253 million in incentives. It just seems odd to us that we can help the financial institutions in this country and that we can offer incentives to our competitors to come here and compete against us but at the same time, we are willing to walk away from an industry that is the backbone of our economy.

And while I read these figures to you, which are the actual figures that we have been able to dig up. I want to go to one particular story and that is the plant in Mercedes, the Mercedes plant in Alabama.

As it turned out, as I said Alabama offered $253 million but the state offered to train the workers, clear and improve the sites, upgrade the utilities, buy 2,500 vehicles and it is estimated that that incentive package totaled somewhere around $175,000/per employee to create those jobs there. And on top of this, that state gave this automaker a large parcel of land-around $250-$300 million dollars. That was the same price or cost to them of building a facility.

So we can support our competition but we can't support an industry that is in need? And this need was not brought about because of what the industry has done.
 

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Come on folks- lets keep to the topic. The fake ad is a little strong, but far from obscene- and says what many believe.

Lets keep rolling with the why/why not on the big three and the bailout.
 
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